Apple's Jobs blasts teachers unions

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
Apple chief executive Steve Jobs lashed out at teachers unions during an education reform conference on friday, claiming that no amount of technology in the classroom would better public schools until principals had authorization to fire bad teachers.



Speaking alongside Dell founder and recently reappointed chief executive Michael Dell at the Austin, Texas-based conference, the Associated Press reports that Jobs focused on comparing schools to businesses with principals serving as CEOs.



"What kind of person could you get to run a small business if you told them that when they came in they couldn't get rid of people that they thought weren't any good?" he asked. "Not really great ones because if you're really smart you go, 'I can't win."'



Jobs said the problem with U.S. institutions is that they have become unionized to a point where ridding public schools of poor teachers is prohibited. "This unionization and lifetime employment of K-12 teachers is off-the-charts crazy," he said.



Although Jobs drew enthusiastic applause at various intervals, he acknowledged that his raw criticisms were unlikely to be as well-received by the local school board.



"Apple just lost some business in this state, I'm sure," he said.



Dell, who reportedly sat quietly with his hands folded in his lap during Jobs' tirade, responded by saying that unions were created because employers were treating his employees unfairly.



"So now you have these enterprises where they take good care of their people," he said. "The employees won, they do really well and succeed."



During his speech, Jobs reportedly told the crowd that he envisioned future schools where textbooks would be replaced with a free, online information source that are constantly updated by experts, like the online encyclopedia Wikipedia.



"I think we'd have far more current material available to our students and we'd be freeing up a tremendous amount of funds that we could buy delivery vehicles with - computers, faster Internet, things like that," he said. "And I also think we'd get some of the best minds in the country contributing."
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 293
    Bad move Jobs... The education sector is where you want to plant your seeds first, to grow more customers.



    I don't agree with what he said, as there are some very good teachers who would be let go if it weren't for unions. But with any union, you win some and you loose some.



    Now, the real solution to the problem, is put some more money into the education sector. He's right, technology won't "Cure" the classroom, but if our government would put more money into the education system (and repeal the "No child left behind" act) then our classrooms would be benefiting our students a great deal more. I live in a state ranked 48th for per-pupil spending, and my mother is a teacher. I know our systems need an educational upgrade, especially in today's globalized market.



    But again, bad move Jobs... don't attack the teachers nor the principals. If you want to attack, go for the government, and set up your own "Education Fund" or bolster what you already have to show that our education systems are in dire need of an upgrade.
  • Reply 2 of 293
    cosmonutcosmonut Posts: 4,872member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


    ...until principles were authorization to fire bad teachers.



    OR "principals were authorized"

    OR "principals had authorization"



    Come on, Kasper.
  • Reply 3 of 293
    oops, sorry for double post.
  • Reply 4 of 293
    Since he spoke in Texas a few issues coming from a Texas and Poli Sci major:

    1. Texas schools are teetering on bankruptcy

    2. We have a teacher shortage, what's worse, fire the bad ones or have none?

    3. Teachers are underpayed as it is, the last pay raise they got was federally mandated

    4. State legislature is trying to do away with public schools in exchange for vouchers.

    5. Governor beleives cutting taxes will solve ALL education problems.



    Sure unions can overstep, but in the case of Texas teachers they are all that's keeping the schools from being a tightly wound, non-interactive prison for kids.
  • Reply 5 of 293
    this is two fold....



    1) yes they should be allowed to fire teachers

    2) teachers should be paid more.



    currently there is very little incentive for good people to turn to teaching.... in this country there is too little respect for teaching and the paid is too little to lure enough good people to do it...



    we'll drop millions of dollars on bombs and the military, but are unwilling to pay teachers a decent salary.



    When I have kids you can be sure that they are not going to be in the US public schools which with a few exceptions are a disgrace....



    we've created an environment that ends up being an outlet for many people that graduated from university but were not great students themselves and then we give them a job that we can't fire them from for low performance....



    Honestly, I've had some excellent teachers who I respect a LOT.



    BUT the overwhelming majority of teachers were mediocre at best and made me dumber at worst.



    I'm sure anyone that's been to university can attest that practically none of the best students ever choose to become teachers
  • Reply 6 of 293
    I believe that Jobs, while possibly not taking the right diplomatic approach here, has a good point. Yet I do not blame the government. I blame the membership of the teachers union. If a principal cannot fire a poor educator, and I often hear groups of teachers complaining about poor educators in their schools, then the only ones to blame are the members. The new Sarbanes-Oxley Act (I believe) which requires more detailed reporting also requires the disclosure of where funds from unions are allocated. Did anyone read/hear where the teachers union is putting their money? The case is not limited to the teachers union though!



    Unions, as pointed out in the speech, were formed when employers were abusing workers. They have outlived their usefulness at this point in the industrial and technological revolution.



    Again, when things are wrong, stop looking for others to blame. Look inside and ask yourself where you made a mistake. The unions will change when the membership becomes enlightened enough to vote for leadership that will do the right thing!



    RB
  • Reply 7 of 293
    Watch out....I have no problem agreeing that educators are under paid, but I draw the line at the military reference.



    You only have the freedom to post this response because of the sacrifice made by the military over the years.



    RB



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by intlplby View Post


    this is two fold....



    1) yes they should be allowed to fire teachers

    2) teachers should be paid more.



    currently there is very little incentive for good people to turn to teaching.... in this country there is too little respect for teaching and the paid is too little to lure enough good people to do it...



    we'll drop millions of dollars on bombs and the military, but are unwilling to pay teachers a decent salary.



    When I have kids you can be sure that they are not going to be in the US public schools which with a few exceptions are a disgrace....



    we've created an environment that ends up being an outlet for many people that graduated from university but were not great students themselves and then we give them a job that we can't fire them from for low performance....



    Honestly, I've had some excellent teachers who I respect a LOT.



    BUT the overwhelming majority of teachers were mediocre at best and made me dumber at worst.



    I'm sure anyone that's been to university can attest that practically none of the best students ever choose to become teachers



  • Reply 8 of 293
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by intlplby View Post


    this is two fold....



    1) yes they should be allowed to fire teachers

    2) teachers should be paid more.



    currently there is very little incentive for good people to turn to teaching.... in this country there is too little respect for teaching and the paid is too little to lure enough good people to do it...



    we'll drop millions of dollars on bombs and the military, but are unwilling to pay teachers a decent salary.



    When I have kids you can be sure that they are not going to be in the US public schools which with a few exceptions are a disgrace....



    we've created an environment that ends up being an outlet for many people that graduated from university but were not great students themselves and then we give them a job that we can't fire them from for low performance....



    Honestly, I've had some excellent teachers who I respect a LOT.



    BUT the overwhelming majority of teachers were mediocre at best and made me dumber at worst.



    I'm sure anyone that's been to university can attest that practically none of the best students ever choose to become teachers



    Teacher don't need to be paid more. Do you realize how much money most teachers make, even those just starting out? Most make 40k starting out and then get up close to 100k when they retire or even sooner than that. And the fact that you get to work only 9 MONTHS OF THE YEAR? Wonderful if you ask me. No need to pay them anymore than what they get.
  • Reply 9 of 293
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    The only two teacher unions I've personally dealt with sucked. I hope that's not a national phenom but I found them a) ineffectual in securing benefits (i.e. the teachers had been working without contract for years AND one union had traded away their ability to strike for little gain) b) ineffectual at policing their own and c) mired in petty bickering/politics.



    Given that teachers purchase books, paper, glue and other supplies out of their own pockets (well my ex did anyway) when supplies run out mid-year teachers need all the help they can get BUT the unions sucked big time.



    And pay, while important, isn't always the critical issue. Otherwise teachers wouldn't often prefer to work at private schools for lower pay. Smaller class sizes and being able to teach rather than babysit often trumps salary.



    And I while I was very impressed by some principals my impression was the higher up the management chain the dumber and more self serving the officials. I bet that you would find overpriced consultants and overpaid management staff in your nearly bankrupt texas school districts.



    Vinea
  • Reply 10 of 293
    How much should a teacher be making, or anyone for that matter?! If you're a teacher, and you're not happy with your pay, find a job that pays what you want. Simple. If more teachers do this, then at some point they will have to start paying more to keep teachers. It's a logical progression. This holds true with any job, not just teaching. Jobs was spot on, unions enable lazy people to maintain their high paying job for the minimum amount of work. That's pretty much the only "good" they do. If it's about money, then choose your career by the salary given. If it's about the career, then learn to make do with the salary given.
  • Reply 11 of 293
    Didn't Jobs express this view in an old interview when he was at next, or had just been brought back to apple? Because I remember reading a rather long, in depth interview, I also remember him saying he came from planet earth when asked his address--I thought I was the only one who zoomed out that far when asked that Q, most people stop at the state!



    edit: I just found it on my computer, it was a transcript of a video interview with the computerworld honors program in 1995, when he was still at next. I used it last year for a school report I did on him.
  • Reply 12 of 293
    Jobs is SPOT ON!



    The educational system in America is BROKEN beyond belief. Everyone is to blame; bad parents, bad teachers, endless money pit of a bureaucracy, no accountability, the blame goes on. However, he is totally right about bad teachers, because they can't ever be fired. The educational system rewards mediocre performance with steady pay raises and eternal job security; where's the incentive for a teacher to succeed and impact his/her students to the best of their ability?



    Canning the No Child Left Behind, throwing more money, throwing more technology....none of it will ever work. The fundamental errors have to be repaired.



    And as far as teachers aren't paid enough, give me a break. My best friend's wife is a teacher; she has a masters degree and teaches the after school program and makes nearly $75,000 yearly while working 2/3 of the work year that average Joe Public works, is guaranteed the exact same time off as her kids.....PUH-LEASE, don't give me this crap.
  • Reply 13 of 293
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rg_spb View Post


    How much should a teacher be making, or anyone for that matter?! If you're a teacher, and you're not happy with your pay, find a job that pays what you want. Simple. If more teachers do this, then at some point they will have to start paying more to keep teachers. It's a logical progression. This holds true with any job, not just teaching. Jobs was spot on, unions enable lazy people to maintain their high paying job for the minimum amount of work. That's pretty much the only "good" they do. If it's about money, then choose your career by the salary given. If it's about the career, then learn to make do with the salary given.



    right because we should all make decisions on what we want to do with our lives based on what we want to earn instead of what we want to do. and also as a society we should only value things that can earn a quick buck. yup.
  • Reply 14 of 293
    Quote:

    Teacher don't need to be paid more. Do you realize how much money most teachers make, even those just starting out? Most make 40k starting out and then get up close to 100k when they retire or even sooner than that. And the fact that you get to work only 9 MONTHS OF THE YEAR? Wonderful if you ask me. No need to pay them anymore than what they get.



    Figure this:



    Let's say a babysitter gets paid $5 an hour to babysit one 10-year old kid. Now a fifth grade teacher with a class of 25 has a 7-hour school day. If they were getting the same pay as that babysitter, they would be getting $5 x 7 hours = $35 a day per kid. They have 25 kids, so $35 x 25 kids = $875 a day. If they work 180 days, they would be making $157,500 a year. Keep in mind they don't just have to keep these kids in control, they have to teach them also. So don't try to tell me $40,000 a year starting salary for a teacher is 'wonderful.'
  • Reply 15 of 293
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by leadership68 View Post


    Watch out....I have no problem agreeing that educators are under paid, but I draw the line at the military reference.



    You only have the freedom to post this response because of the sacrifice made by the military over the years.



    RB



    That is an utterly ignorant statement. And the comparison is apt: no one is criticising your beloved 'troops', but rather the policies of your government and is gross misuse of state funds for incompetent, childish foriegn policy.



    Second. Jobs is dead-on. Teacher shortages are indeed a problem that can be mitigated over the long term by wage increases. However, the stunning incompetence of primary educators, and the realities of principals who cannot fire teachers that do not know proper, elementary level grammar (for example) needs to be addressed. The unions WERE created to protect teachers, but those teachers are no longer marginalized women like they once were.
  • Reply 16 of 293
    I think Steve Jobs just became my personal hero.
  • Reply 17 of 293
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by greenacres View Post


    Figure this:



    Let's say a babysitter gets paid $5 an hour to babysit one 10-year old kid. Now a fifth grade teacher with a class of 25 has a 7-hour school day. If they were getting the same pay as that babysitter, they would be getting $5 x 7 hours = $35 a day per kid. They have 25 kids, so $35 x 25 kids = $875 a day. If they work 180 days, they would be making $157,500 a year. Keep in mind they don't just have to keep these kids in control, they have to teach them also. So don't try to tell me $40,000 a year starting salary for a teacher is 'wonderful.'



    Bad approach.



    I am a network administrator by trade. I consult on the side. When I consult, I charge $100/hour. My everyday hourly salary is less than half that.



    Contract, short-term work always gets paid more than a regular salary.
  • Reply 18 of 293
    And AMEN!!!!



    And did I mention AMEN!



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


    Apple chief executive Steve Jobs lashed out at teachers unions during an education reform conference this past weekend, claiming that no amount of technology in the classroom would better public schools until principles had authorization to fire bad teachers.



    Speaking alongside Dell founder and recently reappointed chief executive Michael Dell at the Austin, Texas-based conference, the Associated Press reports that Jobs focused on comparing schools to businesses with principals serving as CEOs.



    "What kind of person could you get to run a small business if you told them that when they came in they couldn't get rid of people that they thought weren't any good?" he asked. "Not really great ones because if you're really smart you go, 'I can't win."'



    Jobs said the problem with U.S. institutions is that they have become unionized to a point where ridding public schools of poor teachers is prohibited. "This unionization and lifetime employment of K-12 teachers is off-the-charts crazy," he said.



    Although Jobs drew enthusiastic applause at various intervals, he acknowledged that his raw criticisms were unlikely to be as well-received by the local school board.



    "Apple just lost some business in this state, I'm sure," he said.



    Dell, who reportedly sat quietly with his hands folded in his lap during Jobs' tirade, responded by saying that unions were created because employers were treating his employees unfairly.



    "So now you have these enterprises where they take good care of their people," he said. "The employees won, they do really well and succeed."



    During his speech, Jobs reportedly told the crowd that he envisioned future schools where textbooks would be replaced with a free, online information source that are constantly updated by experts, like the online encyclopedia Wikipedia.



    "I think we'd have far more current material available to our students and we'd be freeing up a tremendous amount of funds that we could buy delivery vehicles with - computers, faster Internet, things like that," he said. "And I also think we'd get some of the best minds in the country contributing."



  • Reply 19 of 293
    Quote:

    Bad approach.



    I am a network administrator by trade. I consult on the side. When I consult, I charge $100/hour. My everyday hourly salary is less than half that.



    Contract, short-term work always gets paid more than a regular salary.



    $157,500 ÷ 2 = $78,750.



    $70,000 is still a lot more than $40,000.
  • Reply 20 of 293
    I wonder if Steve is thinking about running for President. He's starting to talk about political things.
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