...the reason why foreign countries are outdoing the U.S. on test scores is because they test those who have been tracked into upper tier programs. We test everyone. If I tested only my AP students, we'd be right in the mix of it with everyone else.
Amen. It infuriates me to no end that the mainstream media continually refuse to report this critical fact.
To make a sports analogy, the other countries' academic starters, backups and scrubs take a test at a fairly early age that tracks them into entirely separate schools. Think about it: a test at an early age determines the course of these foreign students' lives. In the U.S., the starters, backups and scrubs continue to go to school together. Therefore, in the U.S. students still have more control over the courses of their own lives at a later age.
The U.S. students taking the OECD/PISA international academic tests are a combination of starters, backups and scrubs. The only foreign students taking these international tests are those other countries' starters. That is NOT an apples-to-apples comparison!!!
The mainstream American news media won't mention anything about it, though. Shocking the public by reporting the U.S.'s ranking on the international tests strictly at face value -- without telling people the whole story -- sells more newspapers and advertisements. They choose to report an imagined U.S. plane crash instead of a more accurate U.S. landing. Our news media gatekeepers at work...
That's true, also they don't have to deal with all the bullshit government beaurocracy like NCLB and have more freedom to actually teach things instead of just pandering to tests. And they can kick out kids with discipline problems. But the notion that they're better because they pay teachers more simply isn't true - they pay less, but the working conditions may be better for some teachers.
I agree. I see this thread as evolving into a blame the teachers over the failures of NCLB. I'm not against accountability in education nor firing of sub standard teachers. I just think that when people talk about accountability in education, everyone is held accountable but the students themselves. When are they accountable for their performance in school?
I have enjoyed this thread because I work in education as a "technology person" and deal with issues like this constantly.
What's important to remember is that teacher's can't be fired typically because they have tenure. Tenure is something that's earned. The key is to recognize the bad teachers early on, then fire them before they earn tenure. It's the responsbility of the principals and administrators to make sure the bad teachers don't stay around for this long.
The slant I got reading Jobs' comments was that teachers who don't use technology should be fired. He didn't say this obviously, but that is my current perspective. We have a lot of older teachers who refuse to use technology. I don't think the use of technology (or Apple's products) is required for a person to be a good educator. Good teachers have existed long before the first microchip came along. Technology is just a tool that can enrich the learning experience.
Additionally, the earlier comparison to the military is absurd. If anything, the Cold War mentality of continually pumping billions and trillions of dollars into the military's budget takes away from other things we should be investing in, like education to name one. Just think how much money we would save if the military focused primarily on self defense instead of protecting foreign oil resources that we are currently addicted to.
I don't agree with your opinion because you assumed the worse . While I agree to your statement that there are lot of older teachers who refuse to use technology in their classroom ( which I like and heartily support) , there was nothing in Steve Jobs message he wanted Tech phobic teachers fired by being bad teachers . I find that sometimes tech phobic teachers make the best educators because they learn to use their imagination to help them teach their school charges efficiently and effectively. Your bias is clearly showing here because Steve Jobs was willing to lose business with the educational sector in order to tell the truth of the matter.
On your second point , The US government can throw the DOD's whole budget into education and still won't affect a single change because the educational system is broken due to bureaucracy , politics , corruption , lawyers , ideology , corrupt unions and above all government involvement & interference. No amount of money can change that .
Loving your job does not equal getting paid what you're worth. The question you must determine is whether you feel "comfortable" with what you're getting from it. I don't care if you work 80 hrs a week and make $1. If you don't feel that the rewards (monatary or otherwise) are worth it then move on. I know too many people who work a job they can't stand because the money is what they feel they need to support themselves and their family's lifestyle...so they deal with it.
RESPECT IS EARNED!!! Not demanded. I've been a real estate agent for the last three years. What do you think the general public impression is of a real estate agent? LOL. It's not good...about three notches below car salesman. I earn respect and trust by performing extremely well for my clients. Those clients tell others. I earn those people's business. I establish a reputation and therefore earn respect.
I have to be licensed to be able to do my job. There is a "minimum" level of education required (which I must pay to receive). I have to complete continuing education in order to maintain my license (which again I must pay to receive). I also have many fees which must be paid...just to operate. Let's not even get into advertising expenses. I put in a MINIMUM of 12 hrs a day and do you know what my salary is...$0.
I chose this profession for several reasons:
1) I love helping people
2) I like the challenge and the variety this career offers
3) I like the ABILITY (but not the right) to earn a lot of money
I have NO health insurance...NO pension or retirement plan (with employers contributions)...NO social security...NO unemployment insurance...NO guarantee that I can pay my bills next month.
Public education in this country is shameful. It's not ONLY about pay...it's about accountability and results. The argument that you don't get to chose your students is weak and rather mute. In the corporate world, you don't chose your customer, they chose you. If you can't adjust and meet their demands...they find someone who will.
Anyways...this is already more than I cared to get into. I'm not blaming anybody...but as educators you're in the best position to make a difference. Even if you're not responsible you can take responsibility anyways instead of insisting on waiting for the magic bullet. Everyone needs to just stop pointing fingers and start taking action.
I agree. I see this thread as evolving into a blame the teachers over the failures of NCLB. I'm not against accountability in education nor firing of sub standard teachers. I just think that when people talk about accountability in education, everyone is held accountable but the students themselves. When are they accountable for their performance in school?
While I certainly agree with that, don't forget parents! Regardless of how good a teacher is, there's a limit to how much a student will learn if they have terrible attendance, never do homework, and aren't disciplined by parents. Teachers should be accountable for improvement, but students and parents deserve much of the credit/blame as well.
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Originally Posted by iGuess
If you don't feel that the rewards (monatary or otherwise) are worth it then move on.
That makes a nice greeting card, but it doesn't exactly fix the teacher shortage.
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Originally Posted by iGuess
Public education in this country is shameful. It's not ONLY about pay...it's about accountability and results. The argument that you don't get to chose your students is weak and rather mute. In the corporate world, you don't chose your customer, they chose you. If you can't adjust and meet their demands...they find someone who will.
It is shameful for many reasons. And not choosing your students is an absolutely valid point, especially in a system that judges kids not on improvement, but on overall performance. Teachers should be accountable, but everyone involved in education should be accountable as well, including parents and students. If a student refuses to do anything, it doesn't really matter how good the teacher is, especially now that we've taken away the power from teachers to discipline, and administrators and parents give no support.
"Choosing students" isn't comparable to choosing customers, it's comparable to choosing raw materials. If you gave a carpenter rotten, broken wood, is it his fault if the house he ends up building falls down? The way the current educational system is set up (especially with NCLB), it provides a huge incentive for good teachers to find schools that are already doing well and avoid the ones where the kids need the most help. This is a system that completely ignores improvement, so you're best off if you find a school with kids that are already doing well (generally the rich schools).
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Originally Posted by iGuess
Anyways...this is already more than I cared to get into. I'm not blaming anybody...but as educators you're in the best position to make a difference. Even if you're not responsible you can take responsibility anyways instead of insisting on waiting for the magic bullet. Everyone needs to just stop pointing fingers and start taking action.
There's only so much a teacher can do, even an excellent one. Teachers can make a difference, but so can administrators, the government idiots making teachers jump through hoops instead of teaching, parents, and students themselves. You say you're not pointing fingers...but you ARE pointing fingers. Teachers can improve, but there are many other things that need to improve as well.
Steve wasn't talking about teachers in general. He was talking about a vast power structure that is crippling school budgets, flexibility and effectiveness. The NEA union is a vast and powerful entity that wields big political and financial power. It causes harm to kids. Imagine if doctors had such a union. People would die a lot more often. Not because doctors aren't nice people, but because their union would get in the way of hospitals. Unions kill productivity in the end. Union rolls are falling nationwide, mainly because unions cause their employers to die quite often.
Public unions are the worst of all - because the public can't go bankrupt and get rid of them. If you doubt what I am saying, you haven't worked in a union company/school before. I have, a very advanced union, and people were making $90k for menial labor jobs, and the company went bust. Fortunately. It made me realize the public schools (esp with retirement funding) are in the same boat. Sometimes when the mess is that deep, it's best to kill the structure and start over.
Excellent post, Crazygopher. People outside of teaching have no clue about what it's actually like.
You obviously have no clue about being a teacher - they ALREADY DO EXACTLY THIS for teachers, only it's more often than every six years. To stay a teacher, you pretty much have to keep taking classes on a regular basis.
And imagine if every industry was like this - how many of you have mandatory testing/education (out of your own pocket, no less) to keep your job?
Except that private schools generally pay *worse* than public schools. Private schools provide a better eduation because they keep out the poor kids. Sad but true.
As a Mechanical Engineer and Computer Scientist I continue to add to my skillsets on a daily basis. Without it I am obsolete and lose my careers.
Taking workshops and "classes" for teaching is not what I had in mind.
For example, to become a Professional Engineer one has two roadways to travel: take the cumulative Engineers-in-Training Exam from the State in which you file reducing the time to take the Professional/Principle Exam from 12 years to 4 years or wait until 12 years has passed of being under the guidance of a Professional Engineer before qualifying to take the exam.
There is a major difference in pay and job options between these two tiers.
If Educators had to take a cumulative exam that equates to a Master's Exam in order to keep their job, with the work on their own dime and own time, I'd expect to see a very small percentage of them keeping their jobs. In short, the exponential decay curve would be overtaking the exponential growth curve in their respective professions.
The area in which the US currently shows it can't compete lies in the fields of hard science.
This isn't surprising as anyone with a master's in Pure and Applied Mathematics, Physics, various Engineering Fields, Astrophysics, etc., is not going to invest the time to take an "educational" degree in order to teach at the K-12 level.
If mentoring/teaching is in their blood the logical step is to complete a Ph.D and fulfill their designs of influencing future generations at the University level.
IBM is giving incentives for their near retirement staff to go and teach at high schools.
Problem: Barriers to entry, due in mainly to not having an "educational" degree keeps some of the key minds from imparting wisdom to future generations.
Suggestion: Give our kids professionals with Masters in fields directly related to their coursework: make the "educational" degree a "minor" and coordinate with Universities, Coporations and Government agencies in developing Syllabuses that will prepare them to compete against the world at the University level.
Secondly, bring back the applied trades into the K-12 system. Machinists, Mechanics, Technicians, etc., are vital in having high quality products for the future. They are high paying, hands-on careers that would keep the US Manufacturing sector viable.
We don't have this in our system. We used to have it and instead we allowed it to be "outsourced."
Taking workshops and "classes" for teaching is not what I had in mind.
There is a major difference in pay and job options between these two tiers.
If Educators had to take a cumulative exam that equates to a Master's Exam in order to keep their job, with the work on their own dime and own time, I'd expect to see a very small percentage of them keeping their jobs. In short, the exponential decay curve would be overtaking the exponential growth curve in their respective professions.
There is a rigorous process in place for educators to advance to the next level, modeled on what other professions, like engineers, have to do. It's called the National Board for Professional teaching Standards. It's rigorous, expensive, and an excellent opportunity for teachers to demonstrate through portfolio work, video tapes, extensive written analysis of their own practice using student outcomes as the measure of successful teaching, and multiple tests covering the different subjects at which the teacher is supposed to be proficient. When i went through the process it took the better part of a year and was, hands down, the best - and most humbling - learning I've experienced in my professional life. Each piece I submitted was separately and anonymously evaluated by master teachers using a rigorous rubric. The Process can only be attempted by veteran teachers, and less than 50% are successful on their first attempt (though you can "bank" the successful pieces for up to three years.) It involves classroom practice only - no workshops or seat time. Some districts offer significant pay incentive for successful NBCT's (National Board Certified Teachers). Not surprisingly, few teachers attempt it.
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Secondly, bring back the applied trades into the K-12 system. Machinists, Mechanics, Technicians, etc., are vital in having high quality products for the future. They are high paying, hands-on careers that would keep the US Manufacturing sector viable.
Absolutely. Not all our students are college bound and we need to stop pretending that they are, identify those with interest and apptitude for a skilled trade earlier, and retool our schools to teach these skills.
Retirement plans vary widely, and they are funded by teachers PAYING INTO the fund. Every paycheck has a deduction for the fund, and like social security, current teachers are paying for current retirees meaning the plan may go bankrupt and teachers may get less than they paid in, or nothing at all. And speaking of social security, teachers get either reduced SS or not at all, so better factor that in.
So what is your fix, just kill retirement plans? There's a teacher shortage already, if you want to keep people interested in teaching, be prepared to offset retirement cuts with boosts in other compentation or make the shortage even bigger.
Yeah, one solution is to pay everybody a "justified" portion of the assets and dissolve the program. Just because teachers set up a retirement program for themselves and are 8 billion in the hole does not mean it's society's problem. I could write an IOU to my buddy and say I owe 2 billion dollars to him. Once I go broke, it's not society's problem. Unless I am a teacher pension organization. Then suddenly, the public gets their taxes raised.
It is too bad. But yeah, something has to change regarding teacher retirement plans. It is a central issue in public school finance just as it is with airlines and automakers, as well as police and fire departments.
In my home state, the Minneapolis teacher pension fund is totally in the hole, so it merged with the state fund. This is spreading one problem wider, not curing it.
Bottom line, if you want a nice retirement, make sure you hold plenty of money+securities in your own name. Defined-benefit pensions were an experimental idea that went totally wrong.
In regard to the discussion on teachers having to maintain proficiency/updated knowledge, I spent the majority of my Navy career as a welding inspector. In order to keep our knowledge level similar to what we would see on the 'outside', the Navy followed the standards of the national certifications. This involved quarterly reviews of our 'process', basically having a higher qualified person review your work; plus complete rectification every three years. That meant complete from square one, written exams followed by practical demonstrations. If you failed, you were disqualified from your position.
To bring another military comparison into it: for anyone in the Navy, even after you qualified for a watch position/military duty, when you transfered to a different ship or shore station, you have to demonstrate your knowledge and/or proficiency in that duty, normally through an oral review board, before being allowed to perform that duty at your new location.
I don't understand the teacher's unions opposition to a similar program for teachers, to weed out outdated knowledge (important in education, no?) or ones who just aren't performing up to standards.
And if anyone thinks badly run Unions can't drive a sector into the ground, have you been watching the airline and automotive industries over the last few decades or so?
I don't understand the teacher's unions opposition to a similar program for teachers, to weed out outdated knowledge (important in education, no?) or ones who just aren't performing up to standards.
And if anyone thinks badly run Unions can't drive a sector into the ground, have you been watching the airline and automotive industries over the last few decades or so?
I can give one good reason , money . Their union leaders needed the union dues in order to donate money to their favorite political causes and influence politicians needing money to support them and their programs .
How much should a teacher be making, or anyone for that matter?! If you're a teacher, and you're not happy with your pay, find a job that pays what you want. Simple. If more teachers do this, then at some point they will have to start paying more to keep teachers. It's a logical progression. This holds true with any job, not just teaching. Jobs was spot on, unions enable lazy people to maintain their high paying job for the minimum amount of work. That's pretty much the only "good" they do. If it's about money, then choose your career by the salary given. If it's about the career, then learn to make do with the salary given.
The problem with your assertion is that the "logic" of it entails rules that the government can change on a whim. If the government can't find enough people to fill the jobs because the pay and conditions are terrible. They can simply lower and change the requirements to be a teacher. (You there with the AA instead of a BA, you are hired.) They can change the teacher student ratio. (We know you taught 20 children last year but this year you are teaching 33.) They can change all manner of criteria to simply reflect covering up the mess. Government is very good at such things.
I say this as a teacher, but also as someone who has taken and invested that teacher salary on the side to have a very large net-worth. Working for a salary or choosing a job based exclusively or even predominantly on salary is something insanely stupid as Jobs would also point out.
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Originally Posted by ShadowHunter
Jobs is SPOT ON!
The educational system in America is BROKEN beyond belief. Everyone is to blame; bad parents, bad teachers, endless money pit of a bureaucracy, no accountability, the blame goes on. However, he is totally right about bad teachers, because they can't ever be fired. The educational system rewards mediocre performance with steady pay raises and eternal job security; where's the incentive for a teacher to succeed and impact his/her students to the best of their ability?
The educational system isn't broken and gives a good education to anyone who values education. Any sort of basic education isn't hard to acquire at all with minimal effort and one does not need to be especially bright to teacher any concept taught through the clear majority of high school courses.
There is plenty of accountability. The problem is that the goal of success or failure and the tools used to measure them change roughly every year. Bad teachers can easily be fired by competent administrators. However most administrators are lucky if they see the inside of a teacher's classroom more than once or twice a year and that is almost always entirely by choice. Many teachers have a desire to succeed and impact their students but since they have no control over the tools of their own trade and since the measures of success constantly change and offer no rewards even if they are met. That said many do try their best but as in all circumstances there are indeed bad apples.
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And as far as teachers aren't paid enough, give me a break. My best friend's wife is a teacher; she has a masters degree and teaches the after school program and makes nearly $75,000 yearly while working 2/3 of the work year that average Joe Public works, is guaranteed the exact same time off as her kids.....PUH-LEASE, don't give me this crap.
Perhaps you need to question your own education because you are comparing apples and oranges. Joe Public, not to be rude, doesn't an advanced degree nor often a degree of any sort. To compare appropriately you must show what someone with an advanced degree would make and see if their vacations and benefits would be commiserate.
Also plenty of people try teaching. The attrition rate for the profession is very high. If it were the cake job that everyone claims, we wouldn't have shortages. We wouldn't have high attrition and lastly we would have a waiting list for applications and slots.
As I mentioned early though, those market forces that should move to correct such attributes, massive attrition, shortages, etc. do not come into play because the government simply changes the rules when they think it convenient.
The educational system isn't broken and gives a good education to anyone who values education. Any sort of basic education isn't hard to acquire at all with minimal effort and one does not need to be especially bright to teacher any concept taught through the clear majority of high school courses.
Sigh.
Nick, our system is broken to the extent that we have educational inequity along racial and economic lines. There are a whole lot of unique challenges facing urban schools that we need to do a better job of addressing. To say the problem boils down to the individual students for not valuing education enough is not sufficient. As a general matter, we need to expand opportunity to level the playing field for students in this situation.
Yeah, one solution is to pay everybody a "justified" portion of the assets and dissolve the program. Just because teachers set up a retirement program for themselves and are 8 billion in the hole does not mean it's society's problem. I could write an IOU to my buddy and say I owe 2 billion dollars to him. Once I go broke, it's not society's problem. Unless I am a teacher pension organization. Then suddenly, the public gets their taxes raised.
It is too bad. But yeah, something has to change regarding teacher retirement plans. It is a central issue in public school finance just as it is with airlines and automakers, as well as police and fire departments.
In my home state, the Minneapolis teacher pension fund is totally in the hole, so it merged with the state fund. This is spreading one problem wider, not curing it.
Bottom line, if you want a nice retirement, make sure you hold plenty of money+securities in your own name. Defined-benefit pensions were an experimental idea that went totally wrong.
I'm not sure what kind of retirement plan you are talking about. In ME we have no choice. We do not pay into social security. We pay into the state retirement system. If we work at other social security jobs, we never see that money. Our state retirement fund is fairly solvent. You cannot live on the retirement (I just retired after 36 years with a masters+30 ). You cannot generalize about retirement--the states control it. NEA has nothing to do with our retirement fund.
In regard to the discussion on teachers having to maintain proficiency/updated knowledge, I spent the majority of my Navy career as a welding inspector. In order to keep our knowledge level similar to what we would see on the 'outside', the Navy followed the standards of the national certifications. This involved quarterly reviews of our 'process', basically having a higher qualified person review your work; plus complete rectification every three years. That meant complete from square one, written exams followed by practical demonstrations. If you failed, you were disqualified from your position.
To bring another military comparison into it: for anyone in the Navy, even after you qualified for a watch position/military duty, when you transfered to a different ship or shore station, you have to demonstrate your knowledge and/or proficiency in that duty, normally through an oral review board, before being allowed to perform that duty at your new location.
I don't understand the teacher's unions opposition to a similar program for teachers, to weed out outdated knowledge (important in education, no?) or ones who just aren't performing up to standards.
And if anyone thinks badly run Unions can't drive a sector into the ground, have you been watching the airline and automotive industries over the last few decades or so?
I don't understand a couple of things. How do unions affect education if we cannot strike? We don't have much leverage.
Also, how do you measure undated information in the humanities? If you are teaching English, not much changes since k-12 schools seldom teach contemporary literature. If you are teaching Lating, not much changes. Modern world languages, you could test proficiency on the ACTFL scale. However as a retired French teacher, I know it is very difficult to keep up proficiency without traveling every summer. That's just not practical for everyone. If you are teaching ancient history, not much changes unless there are new archeological findings. And, how to you test the effectiveness of a teacher's presentation of material. I have seen very knowledgeable people fail as teachers.
Again, this is not black and white. We are not producing widgets. Teachers have no control over the quality of their raw materials, or the processing (studying) time, or the desire of the products to be taught. The problem is societal, and the solution must be also. Teachers are part of the society, but there are many other factors. I think its going to take a major teacher shortage to even begin the process of straightening out the mess.
And if anyone thinks badly run Unions can't drive a sector into the ground, have you been watching the airline and automotive industries over the last few decades or so?
That problem stems from employer-based health care.
[QUOTE=AppleInsider;1044433]Apple chief executive Steve Jobs lashed out at teachers unions during an education reform conference on friday, claiming that no amount of technology in the classroom would better public schools until principals had authorization to fire bad teachers.
Speaking alongside Dell founder and recently reappointed chief executive Michael Dell at the Austin, Texas-based conference, the Associated Press reports that Jobs focused on comparing schools to businesses with principals serving as CEOs.
"What kind of person could you get to run a small business if you told them that when they came in they couldn't get rid of people that they thought weren't any good?" he asked. "Not really great ones because if you're really smart you go, 'I can't win."'
Jobs said the problem with U.S. institutions is that they have become unionized to a point where ridding public schools of poor teachers is prohibited. "This unionization and lifetime employment of K-12 teachers is off-the-charts crazy," he said.
Although Jobs drew enthusiastic applause at various intervals, he acknowledged that his raw criticisms were unlikely to be as well-received by the local school board.
"Apple just lost some business in this state, I'm sure," he said.
Dell, who reportedly sat quietly with his hands folded in his lap during Jobs' tirade, responded by saying that unions were created because employers were treating his employees unfairly.
"So now you have these enterprises where they take good care of their people," he said. "The employees won, they do really well and succeed."
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OK, JUST LISTEN UP "educational village" :
For 9 years now, I've been using Mac laptops in
my classroom and encouraging the kids to buy Mac as they see how easily I project to my home-made screen with a Toshiba digital projector; how I can summon and anotate, any image imaginable, with the ancient and abandoned AppleWorks; present QT clips of real-life math in the news, historical facts, etc.
THIS GEAR MEANS SURVIVAL & EFFICIENCY
• I pinch pennies to upgrade my system for them.
• I use the projector to get around the continuing hassle of borrowing, securing, and documenting AV equipment from the school.
• I use AppleWorks to save tons of time not looking for markers that are dry out of the box, chalk that scratches the board, boards that skid chalk and are vandalized ; graph boards that are scarce as hens' teeth; manipulatives and demo gear that is always in need of repair or otherwise crippled; etc. ad-nauseam : schools are always ripped off by companies on the District's approved purchasing list. Everyone marvelled when they saw my 12" Powerbook G4 + Digital projector + Wacom graphics tablet in action. No more acetates to get wet or dirty, no more lost packs of slides ... just a pdf file set in a folder ---- reproducible and transmissible via ad-hoc network WI-FI.
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At the receiving end of this, a crowded classroom of children...
• CROWDED because only 3/4 of the student body fit in the building at any one time. So we have 4-track revolving door schools. BECAUSE criminal, fat, cigar-sucking biiiizzzzznnezzz millionaires don't pay the people here enough to have a good property tax base and allocate wealth to schools instead of liquor stores in every corner.
The book covers we just gave our kids depict photos of sweat-drenched, scowling , b-ball thugs. Sometimes it's a bullying Mr. T charcter,
other times it's Army recruitment crap for the poor to go be dismembered to save the rich folk's bacon... compliments of fat, cigar-sucking criminal ceo's probably raking a tax break for "helping inner-city, at-risk youngsters" ... horsesh_t! ( That's a fill-in-the-blank item right there.)
• Ninety plus percent of students have had it demonstrated to them that they need NOT learn math REGARDLESS OF THE TEACHERS' QUALITY because they will pass to the next grade socially. ** subtract one of my incentives for them to pay attention **.
• Instead we get to enjoy way too many smirking punks who regularly spit at teachers, insult them, attack them, kick a pregnant teacher in the abdomen, steal your Mac in a New York minute, etc. *** thank you attorneys out in the land for intimidating teachers and ruining them if they hand Jr. the swift kick in the ass he needs to start him acting like a man instead of a worm***.
If Jobs thinks that Principals are a higher form of life with more morals than teachers have, he really needs to get back in a real classroom ASAP. The ceo/Principal he wants to hand so much power to is likely a classroom escapee who WAS the lousy teacher he refers to. Many will tell you themselves that they could not teach and could not stand the kids and so went for an admin credential. I have a very nice Principal now. But before him we had one who almost emptied the school of all the best teachers by acting like a little bullying idiot who imagined she was talking to 16 year-old stock clerks at K-mart. The less you know about real kids and what will solve the schools' problems, the higher you climb in the power structure.
• A whole industry of charlatans with cult-like methods of implementing their BS instructional programs : "teachers of teachers teaching teachers to teach" have infested the nation's schools... more classroom escapees... more horseshit ! just parasites.
• We have parents who, mostly due to greedy, criminal, cigar-sucking CEO's can't earn enough, with two jobs each , to pay the bills and free time to rear the kids well : these kids learn to admire thugs ( I mean music industry marketers of thug images, arrogance, misogyny, violence, and other rat behavior ).
Very often a parent can't come to the phone because she sleeps 4 hours per night and Jr. is keeping the baby quiet in the next room with the TV set --- no homework.
*** take away the need for a parental conference --- why bother***
• We have too many parents who only show up to their brat's school when they smell a law suit opportunity or to complain about a teacher whom they have never met and for whom they never returned a phone call. I've had many parents show up the last 20 minutes of the school year demanding to know why Princess is failing and can't go on stage for the foto-op that seems to trump learning throughout the previous 8 years. Many of these harbor little hatreds from back when they themselves were assholes in the classroom they disrupted non-stop. They sit around the living room chugging a cool one and bragging to their kids of how they used to piss off their teachers. Then they top that with a perfunctory admonition to "not do as I did -- do as I say" ---- more horseshit !
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Hey Steve'o, you know what happens with the few kids who do a reasonable amount of homework, are reasonably convivial in the classroom, and pay attention to the teacher ???
You really want to know ? Well, they are classified as "honors students" in Honors Math.
And they perform just fine in the CST, STAR etc. tests. It is a joy to keep company with them, even if they have a few misbehavior incidents that I consider part of the job ( not the grinning thugs in the "regular" classes or the totally un-schooled arrivals from below the Frontera who, through no fault of their own, can hardly count past 90 and are expected , in one year, to use an Algebra text written in English and edited by pleistocene moronodons.) It is heart-breaking to see these kind-hearted, generous, respectful country kids begin to put on the punk over the next three years.
You know what Steve Jobs? .... You and the rest of the "village it takes to educate a child" ... the village that is almost entirely hiding in the bushes all year long..... all of you can kiss my teacher ass and start teaching your own kids : that is if you know anything to teach and know how to teach it and can manage to cut the "quality time" crap long enough to spend some QUANTITY time breaking your brats' deformed attitudes and resetting the fracture properly.
BTW, we could use some geniuses as teachers.
Jump in, the water is fine. Do five years with a full workload and no millionaire priviliges, assistants, fart catchers, etc. Do it in L.A.
Be subject to admin mandates, time wasters, idiocy, fetters, threats, arrogance, injustice, etc.
Schools don't need to emulate corporations.
Schools don't need to emulate hospitals.
Schoold don't need to emulate armies.
Schools don't need to emulate computer companies.
Schools aren't any of these things.
So tuck you ego back in your trousers and respect your teachers.
Schools have their own culture, professionals,
skills, and techniques suitable to their own unique situations. Schools have their own language ( student, book, lesson, teacher, mom, dad, kid, screwing up, sassing, spitball, test, passing, failing, drinking water, etc.) We don't need student contracts, media, behavioral issues, projectiles, hydration, facilitators, etc. ad-nauseam.
And we don't need teachers-of-teachers-teaching-teachers-to-teach ..... put these back in with the kids : let them "model the behavior" for us.
And we sure as hell don't need ceo's pretending to be teachers.
If the average CPU chip behaved like the average school kid, Mr. Jobs would assemble fewer than eight iMacs per year and he would quit before the first batch graduated.
Hey VILLAGE PEOPLE ... if you won't help us, then just go to hell.
Comments
...the reason why foreign countries are outdoing the U.S. on test scores is because they test those who have been tracked into upper tier programs. We test everyone. If I tested only my AP students, we'd be right in the mix of it with everyone else.
Amen. It infuriates me to no end that the mainstream media continually refuse to report this critical fact.
To make a sports analogy, the other countries' academic starters, backups and scrubs take a test at a fairly early age that tracks them into entirely separate schools. Think about it: a test at an early age determines the course of these foreign students' lives. In the U.S., the starters, backups and scrubs continue to go to school together. Therefore, in the U.S. students still have more control over the courses of their own lives at a later age.
The U.S. students taking the OECD/PISA international academic tests are a combination of starters, backups and scrubs. The only foreign students taking these international tests are those other countries' starters. That is NOT an apples-to-apples comparison!!!
The mainstream American news media won't mention anything about it, though. Shocking the public by reporting the U.S.'s ranking on the international tests strictly at face value -- without telling people the whole story -- sells more newspapers and advertisements. They choose to report an imagined U.S. plane crash instead of a more accurate U.S. landing. Our news media gatekeepers at work...
That's true, also they don't have to deal with all the bullshit government beaurocracy like NCLB and have more freedom to actually teach things instead of just pandering to tests. And they can kick out kids with discipline problems. But the notion that they're better because they pay teachers more simply isn't true - they pay less, but the working conditions may be better for some teachers.
I agree. I see this thread as evolving into a blame the teachers over the failures of NCLB. I'm not against accountability in education nor firing of sub standard teachers. I just think that when people talk about accountability in education, everyone is held accountable but the students themselves. When are they accountable for their performance in school?
I have enjoyed this thread because I work in education as a "technology person" and deal with issues like this constantly.
What's important to remember is that teacher's can't be fired typically because they have tenure. Tenure is something that's earned. The key is to recognize the bad teachers early on, then fire them before they earn tenure. It's the responsbility of the principals and administrators to make sure the bad teachers don't stay around for this long.
The slant I got reading Jobs' comments was that teachers who don't use technology should be fired. He didn't say this obviously, but that is my current perspective. We have a lot of older teachers who refuse to use technology. I don't think the use of technology (or Apple's products) is required for a person to be a good educator. Good teachers have existed long before the first microchip came along. Technology is just a tool that can enrich the learning experience.
Additionally, the earlier comparison to the military is absurd. If anything, the Cold War mentality of continually pumping billions and trillions of dollars into the military's budget takes away from other things we should be investing in, like education to name one. Just think how much money we would save if the military focused primarily on self defense instead of protecting foreign oil resources that we are currently addicted to.
I don't agree with your opinion because you assumed the worse . While I agree to your statement that there are lot of older teachers who refuse to use technology in their classroom ( which I like and heartily support) , there was nothing in Steve Jobs message he wanted Tech phobic teachers fired by being bad teachers . I find that sometimes tech phobic teachers make the best educators because they learn to use their imagination to help them teach their school charges efficiently and effectively. Your bias is clearly showing here because Steve Jobs was willing to lose business with the educational sector in order to tell the truth of the matter.
On your second point , The US government can throw the DOD's whole budget into education and still won't affect a single change because the educational system is broken due to bureaucracy , politics , corruption , lawyers , ideology , corrupt unions and above all government involvement & interference. No amount of money can change that .
Loving your job does not equal getting paid what you're worth. The question you must determine is whether you feel "comfortable" with what you're getting from it. I don't care if you work 80 hrs a week and make $1. If you don't feel that the rewards (monatary or otherwise) are worth it then move on. I know too many people who work a job they can't stand because the money is what they feel they need to support themselves and their family's lifestyle...so they deal with it.
RESPECT IS EARNED!!! Not demanded. I've been a real estate agent for the last three years. What do you think the general public impression is of a real estate agent? LOL. It's not good...about three notches below car salesman. I earn respect and trust by performing extremely well for my clients. Those clients tell others. I earn those people's business. I establish a reputation and therefore earn respect.
I have to be licensed to be able to do my job. There is a "minimum" level of education required (which I must pay to receive). I have to complete continuing education in order to maintain my license (which again I must pay to receive). I also have many fees which must be paid...just to operate. Let's not even get into advertising expenses. I put in a MINIMUM of 12 hrs a day and do you know what my salary is...$0.
I chose this profession for several reasons:
1) I love helping people
2) I like the challenge and the variety this career offers
3) I like the ABILITY (but not the right) to earn a lot of money
I have NO health insurance...NO pension or retirement plan (with employers contributions)...NO social security...NO unemployment insurance...NO guarantee that I can pay my bills next month.
Public education in this country is shameful. It's not ONLY about pay...it's about accountability and results. The argument that you don't get to chose your students is weak and rather mute. In the corporate world, you don't chose your customer, they chose you. If you can't adjust and meet their demands...they find someone who will.
Anyways...this is already more than I cared to get into. I'm not blaming anybody...but as educators you're in the best position to make a difference. Even if you're not responsible you can take responsibility anyways instead of insisting on waiting for the magic bullet. Everyone needs to just stop pointing fingers and start taking action.
I agree. I see this thread as evolving into a blame the teachers over the failures of NCLB. I'm not against accountability in education nor firing of sub standard teachers. I just think that when people talk about accountability in education, everyone is held accountable but the students themselves. When are they accountable for their performance in school?
While I certainly agree with that, don't forget parents! Regardless of how good a teacher is, there's a limit to how much a student will learn if they have terrible attendance, never do homework, and aren't disciplined by parents. Teachers should be accountable for improvement, but students and parents deserve much of the credit/blame as well.
If you don't feel that the rewards (monatary or otherwise) are worth it then move on.
That makes a nice greeting card, but it doesn't exactly fix the teacher shortage.
Public education in this country is shameful. It's not ONLY about pay...it's about accountability and results. The argument that you don't get to chose your students is weak and rather mute. In the corporate world, you don't chose your customer, they chose you. If you can't adjust and meet their demands...they find someone who will.
It is shameful for many reasons. And not choosing your students is an absolutely valid point, especially in a system that judges kids not on improvement, but on overall performance. Teachers should be accountable, but everyone involved in education should be accountable as well, including parents and students. If a student refuses to do anything, it doesn't really matter how good the teacher is, especially now that we've taken away the power from teachers to discipline, and administrators and parents give no support.
"Choosing students" isn't comparable to choosing customers, it's comparable to choosing raw materials. If you gave a carpenter rotten, broken wood, is it his fault if the house he ends up building falls down? The way the current educational system is set up (especially with NCLB), it provides a huge incentive for good teachers to find schools that are already doing well and avoid the ones where the kids need the most help. This is a system that completely ignores improvement, so you're best off if you find a school with kids that are already doing well (generally the rich schools).
Anyways...this is already more than I cared to get into. I'm not blaming anybody...but as educators you're in the best position to make a difference. Even if you're not responsible you can take responsibility anyways instead of insisting on waiting for the magic bullet. Everyone needs to just stop pointing fingers and start taking action.
There's only so much a teacher can do, even an excellent one. Teachers can make a difference, but so can administrators, the government idiots making teachers jump through hoops instead of teaching, parents, and students themselves. You say you're not pointing fingers...but you ARE pointing fingers. Teachers can improve, but there are many other things that need to improve as well.
Public unions are the worst of all - because the public can't go bankrupt and get rid of them. If you doubt what I am saying, you haven't worked in a union company/school before. I have, a very advanced union, and people were making $90k for menial labor jobs, and the company went bust. Fortunately. It made me realize the public schools (esp with retirement funding) are in the same boat. Sometimes when the mess is that deep, it's best to kill the structure and start over.
Excellent post, Crazygopher. People outside of teaching have no clue about what it's actually like.
You obviously have no clue about being a teacher - they ALREADY DO EXACTLY THIS for teachers, only it's more often than every six years. To stay a teacher, you pretty much have to keep taking classes on a regular basis.
And imagine if every industry was like this - how many of you have mandatory testing/education (out of your own pocket, no less) to keep your job?
Except that private schools generally pay *worse* than public schools. Private schools provide a better eduation because they keep out the poor kids. Sad but true.
As a Mechanical Engineer and Computer Scientist I continue to add to my skillsets on a daily basis. Without it I am obsolete and lose my careers.
Taking workshops and "classes" for teaching is not what I had in mind.
For example, to become a Professional Engineer one has two roadways to travel: take the cumulative Engineers-in-Training Exam from the State in which you file reducing the time to take the Professional/Principle Exam from 12 years to 4 years or wait until 12 years has passed of being under the guidance of a Professional Engineer before qualifying to take the exam.
There is a major difference in pay and job options between these two tiers.
If Educators had to take a cumulative exam that equates to a Master's Exam in order to keep their job, with the work on their own dime and own time, I'd expect to see a very small percentage of them keeping their jobs. In short, the exponential decay curve would be overtaking the exponential growth curve in their respective professions.
The area in which the US currently shows it can't compete lies in the fields of hard science.
This isn't surprising as anyone with a master's in Pure and Applied Mathematics, Physics, various Engineering Fields, Astrophysics, etc., is not going to invest the time to take an "educational" degree in order to teach at the K-12 level.
If mentoring/teaching is in their blood the logical step is to complete a Ph.D and fulfill their designs of influencing future generations at the University level.
IBM is giving incentives for their near retirement staff to go and teach at high schools.
Problem: Barriers to entry, due in mainly to not having an "educational" degree keeps some of the key minds from imparting wisdom to future generations.
Suggestion: Give our kids professionals with Masters in fields directly related to their coursework: make the "educational" degree a "minor" and coordinate with Universities, Coporations and Government agencies in developing Syllabuses that will prepare them to compete against the world at the University level.
Secondly, bring back the applied trades into the K-12 system. Machinists, Mechanics, Technicians, etc., are vital in having high quality products for the future. They are high paying, hands-on careers that would keep the US Manufacturing sector viable.
We don't have this in our system. We used to have it and instead we allowed it to be "outsourced."
Taking workshops and "classes" for teaching is not what I had in mind.
There is a major difference in pay and job options between these two tiers.
If Educators had to take a cumulative exam that equates to a Master's Exam in order to keep their job, with the work on their own dime and own time, I'd expect to see a very small percentage of them keeping their jobs. In short, the exponential decay curve would be overtaking the exponential growth curve in their respective professions.
There is a rigorous process in place for educators to advance to the next level, modeled on what other professions, like engineers, have to do. It's called the National Board for Professional teaching Standards. It's rigorous, expensive, and an excellent opportunity for teachers to demonstrate through portfolio work, video tapes, extensive written analysis of their own practice using student outcomes as the measure of successful teaching, and multiple tests covering the different subjects at which the teacher is supposed to be proficient. When i went through the process it took the better part of a year and was, hands down, the best - and most humbling - learning I've experienced in my professional life. Each piece I submitted was separately and anonymously evaluated by master teachers using a rigorous rubric. The Process can only be attempted by veteran teachers, and less than 50% are successful on their first attempt (though you can "bank" the successful pieces for up to three years.) It involves classroom practice only - no workshops or seat time. Some districts offer significant pay incentive for successful NBCT's (National Board Certified Teachers). Not surprisingly, few teachers attempt it.
Secondly, bring back the applied trades into the K-12 system. Machinists, Mechanics, Technicians, etc., are vital in having high quality products for the future. They are high paying, hands-on careers that would keep the US Manufacturing sector viable.
Absolutely. Not all our students are college bound and we need to stop pretending that they are, identify those with interest and apptitude for a skilled trade earlier, and retool our schools to teach these skills.
Retirement plans vary widely, and they are funded by teachers PAYING INTO the fund. Every paycheck has a deduction for the fund, and like social security, current teachers are paying for current retirees meaning the plan may go bankrupt and teachers may get less than they paid in, or nothing at all. And speaking of social security, teachers get either reduced SS or not at all, so better factor that in.
So what is your fix, just kill retirement plans? There's a teacher shortage already, if you want to keep people interested in teaching, be prepared to offset retirement cuts with boosts in other compentation or make the shortage even bigger.
Yeah, one solution is to pay everybody a "justified" portion of the assets and dissolve the program. Just because teachers set up a retirement program for themselves and are 8 billion in the hole does not mean it's society's problem. I could write an IOU to my buddy and say I owe 2 billion dollars to him. Once I go broke, it's not society's problem. Unless I am a teacher pension organization. Then suddenly, the public gets their taxes raised.
It is too bad. But yeah, something has to change regarding teacher retirement plans. It is a central issue in public school finance just as it is with airlines and automakers, as well as police and fire departments.
In my home state, the Minneapolis teacher pension fund is totally in the hole, so it merged with the state fund. This is spreading one problem wider, not curing it.
Bottom line, if you want a nice retirement, make sure you hold plenty of money+securities in your own name. Defined-benefit pensions were an experimental idea that went totally wrong.
To bring another military comparison into it: for anyone in the Navy, even after you qualified for a watch position/military duty, when you transfered to a different ship or shore station, you have to demonstrate your knowledge and/or proficiency in that duty, normally through an oral review board, before being allowed to perform that duty at your new location.
I don't understand the teacher's unions opposition to a similar program for teachers, to weed out outdated knowledge (important in education, no?) or ones who just aren't performing up to standards.
And if anyone thinks badly run Unions can't drive a sector into the ground, have you been watching the airline and automotive industries over the last few decades or so?
I don't understand the teacher's unions opposition to a similar program for teachers, to weed out outdated knowledge (important in education, no?) or ones who just aren't performing up to standards.
And if anyone thinks badly run Unions can't drive a sector into the ground, have you been watching the airline and automotive industries over the last few decades or so?
I can give one good reason , money . Their union leaders needed the union dues in order to donate money to their favorite political causes and influence politicians needing money to support them and their programs .
How much should a teacher be making, or anyone for that matter?! If you're a teacher, and you're not happy with your pay, find a job that pays what you want. Simple. If more teachers do this, then at some point they will have to start paying more to keep teachers. It's a logical progression. This holds true with any job, not just teaching. Jobs was spot on, unions enable lazy people to maintain their high paying job for the minimum amount of work. That's pretty much the only "good" they do. If it's about money, then choose your career by the salary given. If it's about the career, then learn to make do with the salary given.
The problem with your assertion is that the "logic" of it entails rules that the government can change on a whim. If the government can't find enough people to fill the jobs because the pay and conditions are terrible. They can simply lower and change the requirements to be a teacher. (You there with the AA instead of a BA, you are hired.) They can change the teacher student ratio. (We know you taught 20 children last year but this year you are teaching 33.) They can change all manner of criteria to simply reflect covering up the mess. Government is very good at such things.
I say this as a teacher, but also as someone who has taken and invested that teacher salary on the side to have a very large net-worth. Working for a salary or choosing a job based exclusively or even predominantly on salary is something insanely stupid as Jobs would also point out.
Jobs is SPOT ON!
The educational system in America is BROKEN beyond belief. Everyone is to blame; bad parents, bad teachers, endless money pit of a bureaucracy, no accountability, the blame goes on. However, he is totally right about bad teachers, because they can't ever be fired. The educational system rewards mediocre performance with steady pay raises and eternal job security; where's the incentive for a teacher to succeed and impact his/her students to the best of their ability?
The educational system isn't broken and gives a good education to anyone who values education. Any sort of basic education isn't hard to acquire at all with minimal effort and one does not need to be especially bright to teacher any concept taught through the clear majority of high school courses.
There is plenty of accountability. The problem is that the goal of success or failure and the tools used to measure them change roughly every year. Bad teachers can easily be fired by competent administrators. However most administrators are lucky if they see the inside of a teacher's classroom more than once or twice a year and that is almost always entirely by choice. Many teachers have a desire to succeed and impact their students but since they have no control over the tools of their own trade and since the measures of success constantly change and offer no rewards even if they are met. That said many do try their best but as in all circumstances there are indeed bad apples.
And as far as teachers aren't paid enough, give me a break. My best friend's wife is a teacher; she has a masters degree and teaches the after school program and makes nearly $75,000 yearly while working 2/3 of the work year that average Joe Public works, is guaranteed the exact same time off as her kids.....PUH-LEASE, don't give me this crap.
Perhaps you need to question your own education because you are comparing apples and oranges. Joe Public, not to be rude, doesn't an advanced degree nor often a degree of any sort. To compare appropriately you must show what someone with an advanced degree would make and see if their vacations and benefits would be commiserate.
Also plenty of people try teaching. The attrition rate for the profession is very high. If it were the cake job that everyone claims, we wouldn't have shortages. We wouldn't have high attrition and lastly we would have a waiting list for applications and slots.
As I mentioned early though, those market forces that should move to correct such attributes, massive attrition, shortages, etc. do not come into play because the government simply changes the rules when they think it convenient.
Nick
The educational system isn't broken and gives a good education to anyone who values education. Any sort of basic education isn't hard to acquire at all with minimal effort and one does not need to be especially bright to teacher any concept taught through the clear majority of high school courses.
Sigh.
Nick, our system is broken to the extent that we have educational inequity along racial and economic lines. There are a whole lot of unique challenges facing urban schools that we need to do a better job of addressing. To say the problem boils down to the individual students for not valuing education enough is not sufficient. As a general matter, we need to expand opportunity to level the playing field for students in this situation.
Yeah, one solution is to pay everybody a "justified" portion of the assets and dissolve the program. Just because teachers set up a retirement program for themselves and are 8 billion in the hole does not mean it's society's problem. I could write an IOU to my buddy and say I owe 2 billion dollars to him. Once I go broke, it's not society's problem. Unless I am a teacher pension organization. Then suddenly, the public gets their taxes raised.
It is too bad. But yeah, something has to change regarding teacher retirement plans. It is a central issue in public school finance just as it is with airlines and automakers, as well as police and fire departments.
In my home state, the Minneapolis teacher pension fund is totally in the hole, so it merged with the state fund. This is spreading one problem wider, not curing it.
Bottom line, if you want a nice retirement, make sure you hold plenty of money+securities in your own name. Defined-benefit pensions were an experimental idea that went totally wrong.
I'm not sure what kind of retirement plan you are talking about. In ME we have no choice. We do not pay into social security. We pay into the state retirement system. If we work at other social security jobs, we never see that money. Our state retirement fund is fairly solvent. You cannot live on the retirement (I just retired after 36 years with a masters+30 ). You cannot generalize about retirement--the states control it. NEA has nothing to do with our retirement fund.
In regard to the discussion on teachers having to maintain proficiency/updated knowledge, I spent the majority of my Navy career as a welding inspector. In order to keep our knowledge level similar to what we would see on the 'outside', the Navy followed the standards of the national certifications. This involved quarterly reviews of our 'process', basically having a higher qualified person review your work; plus complete rectification every three years. That meant complete from square one, written exams followed by practical demonstrations. If you failed, you were disqualified from your position.
To bring another military comparison into it: for anyone in the Navy, even after you qualified for a watch position/military duty, when you transfered to a different ship or shore station, you have to demonstrate your knowledge and/or proficiency in that duty, normally through an oral review board, before being allowed to perform that duty at your new location.
I don't understand the teacher's unions opposition to a similar program for teachers, to weed out outdated knowledge (important in education, no?) or ones who just aren't performing up to standards.
And if anyone thinks badly run Unions can't drive a sector into the ground, have you been watching the airline and automotive industries over the last few decades or so?
I don't understand a couple of things. How do unions affect education if we cannot strike? We don't have much leverage.
Also, how do you measure undated information in the humanities? If you are teaching English, not much changes since k-12 schools seldom teach contemporary literature. If you are teaching Lating, not much changes. Modern world languages, you could test proficiency on the ACTFL scale. However as a retired French teacher, I know it is very difficult to keep up proficiency without traveling every summer. That's just not practical for everyone. If you are teaching ancient history, not much changes unless there are new archeological findings. And, how to you test the effectiveness of a teacher's presentation of material. I have seen very knowledgeable people fail as teachers.
Again, this is not black and white. We are not producing widgets. Teachers have no control over the quality of their raw materials, or the processing (studying) time, or the desire of the products to be taught. The problem is societal, and the solution must be also. Teachers are part of the society, but there are many other factors. I think its going to take a major teacher shortage to even begin the process of straightening out the mess.
And if anyone thinks badly run Unions can't drive a sector into the ground, have you been watching the airline and automotive industries over the last few decades or so?
That problem stems from employer-based health care.
We need to fix that model.
Speaking alongside Dell founder and recently reappointed chief executive Michael Dell at the Austin, Texas-based conference, the Associated Press reports that Jobs focused on comparing schools to businesses with principals serving as CEOs.
"What kind of person could you get to run a small business if you told them that when they came in they couldn't get rid of people that they thought weren't any good?" he asked. "Not really great ones because if you're really smart you go, 'I can't win."'
Jobs said the problem with U.S. institutions is that they have become unionized to a point where ridding public schools of poor teachers is prohibited. "This unionization and lifetime employment of K-12 teachers is off-the-charts crazy," he said.
Although Jobs drew enthusiastic applause at various intervals, he acknowledged that his raw criticisms were unlikely to be as well-received by the local school board.
"Apple just lost some business in this state, I'm sure," he said.
Dell, who reportedly sat quietly with his hands folded in his lap during Jobs' tirade, responded by saying that unions were created because employers were treating his employees unfairly.
"So now you have these enterprises where they take good care of their people," he said. "The employees won, they do really well and succeed."
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OK, JUST LISTEN UP "educational village" :
For 9 years now, I've been using Mac laptops in
my classroom and encouraging the kids to buy Mac as they see how easily I project to my home-made screen with a Toshiba digital projector; how I can summon and anotate, any image imaginable, with the ancient and abandoned AppleWorks; present QT clips of real-life math in the news, historical facts, etc.
THIS GEAR MEANS SURVIVAL & EFFICIENCY
• I pinch pennies to upgrade my system for them.
• I use the projector to get around the continuing hassle of borrowing, securing, and documenting AV equipment from the school.
• I use AppleWorks to save tons of time not looking for markers that are dry out of the box, chalk that scratches the board, boards that skid chalk and are vandalized ; graph boards that are scarce as hens' teeth; manipulatives and demo gear that is always in need of repair or otherwise crippled; etc. ad-nauseam : schools are always ripped off by companies on the District's approved purchasing list. Everyone marvelled when they saw my 12" Powerbook G4 + Digital projector + Wacom graphics tablet in action. No more acetates to get wet or dirty, no more lost packs of slides ... just a pdf file set in a folder ---- reproducible and transmissible via ad-hoc network WI-FI.
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At the receiving end of this, a crowded classroom of children...
• CROWDED because only 3/4 of the student body fit in the building at any one time. So we have 4-track revolving door schools. BECAUSE criminal, fat, cigar-sucking biiiizzzzznnezzz millionaires don't pay the people here enough to have a good property tax base and allocate wealth to schools instead of liquor stores in every corner.
The book covers we just gave our kids depict photos of sweat-drenched, scowling , b-ball thugs. Sometimes it's a bullying Mr. T charcter,
other times it's Army recruitment crap for the poor to go be dismembered to save the rich folk's bacon... compliments of fat, cigar-sucking criminal ceo's probably raking a tax break for "helping inner-city, at-risk youngsters" ... horsesh_t! ( That's a fill-in-the-blank item right there.)
• Ninety plus percent of students have had it demonstrated to them that they need NOT learn math REGARDLESS OF THE TEACHERS' QUALITY because they will pass to the next grade socially. ** subtract one of my incentives for them to pay attention **.
• Instead we get to enjoy way too many smirking punks who regularly spit at teachers, insult them, attack them, kick a pregnant teacher in the abdomen, steal your Mac in a New York minute, etc. *** thank you attorneys out in the land for intimidating teachers and ruining them if they hand Jr. the swift kick in the ass he needs to start him acting like a man instead of a worm***.
If Jobs thinks that Principals are a higher form of life with more morals than teachers have, he really needs to get back in a real classroom ASAP. The ceo/Principal he wants to hand so much power to is likely a classroom escapee who WAS the lousy teacher he refers to. Many will tell you themselves that they could not teach and could not stand the kids and so went for an admin credential. I have a very nice Principal now. But before him we had one who almost emptied the school of all the best teachers by acting like a little bullying idiot who imagined she was talking to 16 year-old stock clerks at K-mart. The less you know about real kids and what will solve the schools' problems, the higher you climb in the power structure.
• A whole industry of charlatans with cult-like methods of implementing their BS instructional programs : "teachers of teachers teaching teachers to teach" have infested the nation's schools... more classroom escapees... more horseshit ! just parasites.
• We have parents who, mostly due to greedy, criminal, cigar-sucking CEO's can't earn enough, with two jobs each , to pay the bills and free time to rear the kids well : these kids learn to admire thugs ( I mean music industry marketers of thug images, arrogance, misogyny, violence, and other rat behavior ).
Very often a parent can't come to the phone because she sleeps 4 hours per night and Jr. is keeping the baby quiet in the next room with the TV set --- no homework.
*** take away the need for a parental conference --- why bother***
• We have too many parents who only show up to their brat's school when they smell a law suit opportunity or to complain about a teacher whom they have never met and for whom they never returned a phone call. I've had many parents show up the last 20 minutes of the school year demanding to know why Princess is failing and can't go on stage for the foto-op that seems to trump learning throughout the previous 8 years. Many of these harbor little hatreds from back when they themselves were assholes in the classroom they disrupted non-stop. They sit around the living room chugging a cool one and bragging to their kids of how they used to piss off their teachers. Then they top that with a perfunctory admonition to "not do as I did -- do as I say" ---- more horseshit !
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Hey Steve'o, you know what happens with the few kids who do a reasonable amount of homework, are reasonably convivial in the classroom, and pay attention to the teacher ???
You really want to know ? Well, they are classified as "honors students" in Honors Math.
And they perform just fine in the CST, STAR etc. tests. It is a joy to keep company with them, even if they have a few misbehavior incidents that I consider part of the job ( not the grinning thugs in the "regular" classes or the totally un-schooled arrivals from below the Frontera who, through no fault of their own, can hardly count past 90 and are expected , in one year, to use an Algebra text written in English and edited by pleistocene moronodons.) It is heart-breaking to see these kind-hearted, generous, respectful country kids begin to put on the punk over the next three years.
You know what Steve Jobs? .... You and the rest of the "village it takes to educate a child" ... the village that is almost entirely hiding in the bushes all year long..... all of you can kiss my teacher ass and start teaching your own kids : that is if you know anything to teach and know how to teach it and can manage to cut the "quality time" crap long enough to spend some QUANTITY time breaking your brats' deformed attitudes and resetting the fracture properly.
BTW, we could use some geniuses as teachers.
Jump in, the water is fine. Do five years with a full workload and no millionaire priviliges, assistants, fart catchers, etc. Do it in L.A.
Be subject to admin mandates, time wasters, idiocy, fetters, threats, arrogance, injustice, etc.
Schools don't need to emulate corporations.
Schools don't need to emulate hospitals.
Schoold don't need to emulate armies.
Schools don't need to emulate computer companies.
Schools aren't any of these things.
So tuck you ego back in your trousers and respect your teachers.
Schools have their own culture, professionals,
skills, and techniques suitable to their own unique situations. Schools have their own language ( student, book, lesson, teacher, mom, dad, kid, screwing up, sassing, spitball, test, passing, failing, drinking water, etc.) We don't need student contracts, media, behavioral issues, projectiles, hydration, facilitators, etc. ad-nauseam.
And we don't need teachers-of-teachers-teaching-teachers-to-teach ..... put these back in with the kids : let them "model the behavior" for us.
And we sure as hell don't need ceo's pretending to be teachers.
If the average CPU chip behaved like the average school kid, Mr. Jobs would assemble fewer than eight iMacs per year and he would quit before the first batch graduated.
Hey VILLAGE PEOPLE ... if you won't help us, then just go to hell.
*** Are there any questions so far ? ***
Please let me know if there is a coherent point in gooddog's post; I failed to find it.
Being a teacher in the US is bound to give you heart problems?
Please let me know if there is a coherent point in gooddog's post; I failed to find it.
Gooddog is describing what its really like to be a teacher. Visit a school for a week or so if you don't believe it.