How difficult would it be to include 3G in the iPhone, but not "activated" - just like the situation with WiFi? Not being an engineer I don't have a clue, but feel that Apple might have taken the same as they did with the C2D Macs, allowing activation for a massive $1.99 when AT&T is ready, and delivering the 3G to Europe, starting with the first one.
Maybe. I get the impression that it's currently an issue of time-to-market, network availability and also FCC certification. I don't even know how closely it could mirror the computer "n" activation situation.
It's not really anything like that or nearly that bad. The luma mostly comes from green, and on most of the camera sensors I've cared to look at, half of the cells are green, 1/4th are red and 1/4th are blue, but I think the algorithms interpolate the luma from ALL cells.
You're right the effective resolution isn't quite as bad as I said - but it's probably below 50% of the 'pixel' count
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
At least you do seem to understand that the megapixels on cameras are just to make a bullet point look good. It's a pretty sad farce. I don't mind a camera on a phone, it would be convenient, but I would never be under any confusion that it would properly replace the quality of a dedicated camera any time soon.
LoL! Mac-heads are so condescending!
Anyway, I would say that the iPhone, as currently announced, has 3 main weaknesses:
- no 3G
- no 2nd camera
- Main camera trailing-edge technology
The lack of 3G would almost certainly stop me buying it, and alot of other people as well, I expect.
- however, this looks like being sorted out pretty soon after, if not before, it launches in Europe.
The lack of a forward facing video camera would also be a downer, and might stop me buying it, given that nearly all 3G phones currently have this (although many of the Smartphones like the N61 don't). Given that my current phone has had this for 2 years, I would be loath to drop this feature, as it's great fun if you ever manage find someone who can video-call you back!
The Main camera spec is probably the least of my concerns, and probably wouldn't stop me buying it, but at 2M it's not going to replace the need for a proper camera.
It's good enough for spur-of-the-moment photos, but not good enough as a proper camera replacement.
- it may be expecting too much for a phone camera to do this, but if you look at the Nokia range, I would say that they are making an attempt to do exactly that. They're rapidly moving to 5M pixels with a good lens (Carl Zeiss).
- Sony Ericsson similarly
I would say that, by the time the iPhone lauches in Europe, let alone the Asian launch, the 2M pixel camera will be looking a 'bit shabby'. My guess is that Apple will address this as soon as possible, if not before!
You should also bear in mind that Apple is asking top-dollar for this thing, and so it's not unreasonable to expect a top-spec piece of equipment in return.
I don't mean to spoil anyone's weekend by suggesting that the iPhone is anything other than perfect, but it ain't.
I think most of us are aware of the shortcomings. I most likely won't be getting the first generation model. The camera is the least of my concerns.
Besides, 5MP camera on a phone isn't going to approach my 3MP consumer camera, unless it's a regular camera with a phone attached rather than the other way around. Heck, my dad bought a fancy new 8MP consumer camera that has nicer bullet point specs but it's not as good as my 3MP that's three years older than his, and about the same size. Megapixels are probably the worst yardstick ever concieved for comparing cameras. Multiplying the number of dots it can record doesn't fix the fundemental problems, and it can make them worse because there are fewer photons per cell, and makes the picture noisier and less sensitive in low light. So you might have high spacial resolution, you'll get about GIF-quality color at best.
I am only speaking on behalf of us Swedes now, especially we who live outside of the main three cities.
For us there is only one viable option: Telia.
Much can be said about Telia, and at least some of it not very flattering, but when it comes to geographical coverage and (most of the time) service availability there is no comparison whatsoever in Sweden.
The best for us customers would of course be that the iPhone was not connected to just one operator, but if it must be limited then I sincerely hope that it will be Telia in Sweden.
I am only speaking on behalf of us Swedes now, especially we who live outside of the main three cities.
For us there is only one viable option: Telia.
Look at the map, it clearly says partner for Sweden, I'm guessing that partner would be Telia, they would subcontract Swedish contracts to Telia in Sweden.
I don't mean to spoil anyone's weekend by suggesting that the iPhone is anything other than perfect, but it ain't.
Well, you are not raining on my parade. This will be a great device and as a phone, which is what I need most, rather than a camera, and with OSX apps and capabilites, I think it is going to be worth it as the pricing structure will be competitive-- you just haven't seen the final details of that yet. Considering that there are many more expensive phones available today that sell despite the price tags, and given Apple's almost flawless ability to nail price points these days, I am sure this is going to sell just like the iPod--- moderate growth, then explosive as gens 2 and 3 become incredible devices.
iDon't give a crap about the camera myself, anyway in a device that thin trying to cram anything over a 2Mp camera in would be a waste of time. Now onto my real point, iDon't expect to see any non-3G iPhones in Europe at all. Oh and Mr. Samurai.. Video conferencing on a mobile phone is stupid.
Word on the street is that it will be Vodafone.
O2 is the Irish carrier of the iPhone. I can't reveal my sources on that, but it's a 100% certainty from what I've been told.
Well, you are not raining on my parade. This will be a great device and as a phone, which is what I need most, rather than a camera, and with OSX apps and capabilites, I think it is going to be worth it as the pricing structure will be competitive-- you just haven't seen the final details of that yet. Considering that there are many more expensive phones available today that sell despite the price tags, and given Apple's almost flawless ability to nail price points these days, I am sure this is going to sell just like the iPod--- moderate growth, then explosive as gens 2 and 3 become incredible devices.
Plus you certainly don't have to buy one.
I think it's a great, possibly brilliant, device too.
And, of course, it's just the first of what will be a long line of iPhones.
I'm pretty excited about it, and can't wait to see it released in Europe (with 3G of course!).
- and when it is released, I might even buy it
- and I'm with vodofone already, so that's not a problem
iDon't give a crap about the camera myself, anyway in a device that thin trying to cram anything over a 2Mp camera in would be a waste of time. Now onto my real point, iDon't expect to see any non-3G iPhones in Europe at all. Oh and Mr. Samurai.. Video conferencing on a mobile phone is stupid.
Look at the map, it clearly says partner for Sweden, I'm guessing that partner would be Telia, they would subcontract Swedish contracts to Telia in Sweden.
No. Telenor bought Vodafone in Sweden (old Europolitan) and rebranded it. I would not go as far as to say that Telia is the only decent carrier, Tele2Comviq is good enough, but perhaps not in the northern inland.
Video conferencing over the phone IS a gimmick. Basically the only people who use it are deaf.
O2 is the Irish carrier of the iPhone. I can't reveal my sources on that, but it's a 100% certainty from what I've been told.
Well done, good investigating. To be honest I could give a rats ass who carries the iPhone in Ireland. If I had a moment with Steve Jobs, and he said; "do you have a question you want to ask me?" I'd say; "Where the fuck is the Irish Apple Store? I was talking to a guy who works at your your European headquarters in Cork recently, and he told me he had to ring in the place where he works to order his own Mac. What the fuck is the story with that? Now excuse me for being rude, but besides England Apple's whole slow growth and lack of Apple stores in Europe is inexcusable IMO. I think Apple needs to get off their lazy asses and address Europe properly. Just build damn sheds if you have to, cause people are crying out for your stores here, and there's none. It's a fucking joke."
iDon't give a crap about the camera myself, anyway in a device that thin trying to cram anything over a 2Mp camera in would be a waste of time. Now onto my real point, iDon't expect to see any non-3G iPhones in Europe at all. Oh and Mr. Samurai.. Video conferencing on a mobile phone is stupid.
[/IMG]
I wish you would change your user name, your half-assed opinions are giving the country a bad name!
You might have no use for greater camera resolution but I certainly do and so I expect would many others. I recently got some great shots while skiing using my 2mp phone camera - just wish I had even more res.
And why don't you go tell all the deaf people who communicate with each other by signing over video conference calls that you think the feature they rely on is stupid.
I wish you would change your user name, your half-assed opinions are giving the country a bad name! You might have no use for greater camera resolution but I certainly do and so I expect would many others. I recently got some great shots while skiing using my 2mp phone camera - just wish I had even more res.
And why don't you go tell all the deaf people who communicate with each other by signing over video conference calls that you think the feature they rely on is stupid.
I can't change my username, and if I could I certainly wouldn't do it for a noob like you. I take it you are not aware of the Megapixel myth? Well you are a noob. Noob is as noob does. I happen to have a deaf freind, and he finds texting quite adequate. He has also told me he thinks video conferencing on a mobile phone is stupid, as like most people. Sitting somewhere in public or standing on the street anywhere talking to your hand is the most ridiculous things ever and the connection is never really as good as is should be. Give me a break you idiot. Thank God Apple had the sense you clearly don't have, otherwise the iPhone would probably be petrol powered too.
I can't change my username, and if I could I certainly wouldn't do it for a noob like you. I take it you are not aware of the Megapixel myth? Well you are a noob. Noob is as noob does. I happen to have a deaf freind, and he finds texting quite adequate. He has also told me he thinks video conferencing on a mobile phone is stupid, as like most people. Sitting somewhere in public or standing on the street anywhere talking to your hand is the most ridiculous things ever and the connection is never really as good as is should be. Give me a break you idiot. Thank God Apple had the sense you clearly don't have, otherwise the iPhone would probably be petrol powered too.
The situation was discouraging enough that Apple reportedly left out the technology in its inaugural phone due to the limited amount of HSDPA coverage in the country.
Okay can anybody tell me why on earth I would get a $599 phone with 2 year contract and no HSDPA in June 2007.
As of November Cingular had (according to them: HSDPA in 134 US markets with populations of 100,000 or more. This may be less than Verizon or Sprint but how saturated do you think HSDPA will be a year from now when you still have 16 months left on your iPhone contract?
Cingular/AT&T currently offers the following HSDPA phones:
Samsung Blackjack $199
Cingular SYNC by Samsung $49 (in black, red and blue)
Cingular 8525 $399
MOTORAZR V3xx $49 ($99 for Dolce and Gabana Gold)
Samsung ZX20 $129 (currently also refurbed for $49)
Palm Treo 750 $399
LG CU500 $49
LG CU400 $9 (yes $9 and it plays streaming MPEG4 and Real Video, Bluetooth, push to talk )
Samsung ZX20 $129
Samsung ZX10 $49
And anyway I bet the people most likely to spend $500 or $600 are likely to live in one of the HSDPA markts. So why does Apple cripple their phone?
Remember when Steve announced that the iMac will have a 33.6 modem? I sense another retraction coming....
Anyway, I would say that the iPhone, as currently announced, has 3 main weaknesses:
- no 3G
- no 2nd camera
- Main camera trailing-edge technology
Unless Apple plans to only release a 3G model in Europe and Asia, they should go ahead and have 3G across the board now. Doesn't make much sense to add 6 months later.
The forwared facing camera would be cool. Jobs was coy about iChat on the iPhone, when asked about it he said he sees no reason why iChat cannot be included, I believe it'll be there. No camera for iChat would be an odd ommision considering every Mac ships with a camera. Such a camera could get away with being low resolution and comparatively cheap.
My biggest concern at the moment is storage. 4/8GB with no way to add additional storage is pretty slim for a device that stores and displays documents, pictures, audio, and video.
Comments
How difficult would it be to include 3G in the iPhone, but not "activated" - just like the situation with WiFi? Not being an engineer I don't have a clue, but feel that Apple might have taken the same as they did with the C2D Macs, allowing activation for a massive $1.99 when AT&T is ready, and delivering the 3G to Europe, starting with the first one.
Maybe. I get the impression that it's currently an issue of time-to-market, network availability and also FCC certification. I don't even know how closely it could mirror the computer "n" activation situation.
It's not really anything like that or nearly that bad. The luma mostly comes from green, and on most of the camera sensors I've cared to look at, half of the cells are green, 1/4th are red and 1/4th are blue, but I think the algorithms interpolate the luma from ALL cells.
You're right the effective resolution isn't quite as bad as I said - but it's probably below 50% of the 'pixel' count
At least you do seem to understand that the megapixels on cameras are just to make a bullet point look good. It's a pretty sad farce. I don't mind a camera on a phone, it would be convenient, but I would never be under any confusion that it would properly replace the quality of a dedicated camera any time soon.
LoL! Mac-heads are so condescending!
Anyway, I would say that the iPhone, as currently announced, has 3 main weaknesses:
- no 3G
- no 2nd camera
- Main camera trailing-edge technology
The lack of 3G would almost certainly stop me buying it, and alot of other people as well, I expect.
- however, this looks like being sorted out pretty soon after, if not before, it launches in Europe.
The lack of a forward facing video camera would also be a downer, and might stop me buying it, given that nearly all 3G phones currently have this (although many of the Smartphones like the N61 don't). Given that my current phone has had this for 2 years, I would be loath to drop this feature, as it's great fun if you ever manage find someone who can video-call you back!
The Main camera spec is probably the least of my concerns, and probably wouldn't stop me buying it, but at 2M it's not going to replace the need for a proper camera.
It's good enough for spur-of-the-moment photos, but not good enough as a proper camera replacement.
- it may be expecting too much for a phone camera to do this, but if you look at the Nokia range, I would say that they are making an attempt to do exactly that. They're rapidly moving to 5M pixels with a good lens (Carl Zeiss).
- Sony Ericsson similarly
I would say that, by the time the iPhone lauches in Europe, let alone the Asian launch, the 2M pixel camera will be looking a 'bit shabby'. My guess is that Apple will address this as soon as possible, if not before!
You should also bear in mind that Apple is asking top-dollar for this thing, and so it's not unreasonable to expect a top-spec piece of equipment in return.
I don't mean to spoil anyone's weekend by suggesting that the iPhone is anything other than perfect, but it ain't.
Besides, 5MP camera on a phone isn't going to approach my 3MP consumer camera, unless it's a regular camera with a phone attached rather than the other way around. Heck, my dad bought a fancy new 8MP consumer camera that has nicer bullet point specs but it's not as good as my 3MP that's three years older than his, and about the same size. Megapixels are probably the worst yardstick ever concieved for comparing cameras. Multiplying the number of dots it can record doesn't fix the fundemental problems, and it can make them worse because there are fewer photons per cell, and makes the picture noisier and less sensitive in low light. So you might have high spacial resolution, you'll get about GIF-quality color at best.
Word on the street is that it will be Vodafone.
I am only speaking on behalf of us Swedes now, especially we who live outside of the main three cities.
For us there is only one viable option: Telia.
Much can be said about Telia, and at least some of it not very flattering, but when it comes to geographical coverage and (most of the time) service availability there is no comparison whatsoever in Sweden.
The best for us customers would of course be that the iPhone was not connected to just one operator, but if it must be limited then I sincerely hope that it will be Telia in Sweden.
I am only speaking on behalf of us Swedes now, especially we who live outside of the main three cities.
For us there is only one viable option: Telia.
Look at the map, it clearly says partner for Sweden, I'm guessing that partner would be Telia, they would subcontract Swedish contracts to Telia in Sweden.
I don't mean to spoil anyone's weekend by suggesting that the iPhone is anything other than perfect, but it ain't.
Well, you are not raining on my parade. This will be a great device and as a phone, which is what I need most, rather than a camera, and with OSX apps and capabilites, I think it is going to be worth it as the pricing structure will be competitive-- you just haven't seen the final details of that yet. Considering that there are many more expensive phones available today that sell despite the price tags, and given Apple's almost flawless ability to nail price points these days, I am sure this is going to sell just like the iPod--- moderate growth, then explosive as gens 2 and 3 become incredible devices.
Plus you certainly don't have to buy one.
iDon't give a crap about the camera myself, anyway in a device that thin trying to cram anything over a 2Mp camera in would be a waste of time. Now onto my real point, iDon't expect to see any non-3G iPhones in Europe at all. Oh and Mr. Samurai.. Video conferencing on a mobile phone is stupid.
Word on the street is that it will be Vodafone.
O2 is the Irish carrier of the iPhone. I can't reveal my sources on that, but it's a 100% certainty from what I've been told.
Well, you are not raining on my parade. This will be a great device and as a phone, which is what I need most, rather than a camera, and with OSX apps and capabilites, I think it is going to be worth it as the pricing structure will be competitive-- you just haven't seen the final details of that yet. Considering that there are many more expensive phones available today that sell despite the price tags, and given Apple's almost flawless ability to nail price points these days, I am sure this is going to sell just like the iPod--- moderate growth, then explosive as gens 2 and 3 become incredible devices.
Plus you certainly don't have to buy one.
I think it's a great, possibly brilliant, device too.
And, of course, it's just the first of what will be a long line of iPhones.
I'm pretty excited about it, and can't wait to see it released in Europe (with 3G of course!).
- and when it is released, I might even buy it
- and I'm with vodofone already, so that's not a problem
iDon't give a crap about the camera myself, anyway in a device that thin trying to cram anything over a 2Mp camera in would be a waste of time. Now onto my real point, iDon't expect to see any non-3G iPhones in Europe at all. Oh and Mr. Samurai.. Video conferencing on a mobile phone is stupid.
Word on the street is that it will be Vodafone.
Look at the map, it clearly says partner for Sweden, I'm guessing that partner would be Telia, they would subcontract Swedish contracts to Telia in Sweden.
No. Telenor bought Vodafone in Sweden (old Europolitan) and rebranded it. I would not go as far as to say that Telia is the only decent carrier, Tele2Comviq is good enough, but perhaps not in the northern inland.
Video conferencing over the phone IS a gimmick. Basically the only people who use it are deaf.
O2 is the Irish carrier of the iPhone. I can't reveal my sources on that, but it's a 100% certainty from what I've been told.
Well done, good investigating. To be honest I could give a rats ass who carries the iPhone in Ireland. If I had a moment with Steve Jobs, and he said; "do you have a question you want to ask me?" I'd say; "Where the fuck is the Irish Apple Store? I was talking to a guy who works at your your European headquarters in Cork recently, and he told me he had to ring in the place where he works to order his own Mac. What the fuck is the story with that? Now excuse me for being rude, but besides England Apple's whole slow growth and lack of Apple stores in Europe is inexcusable IMO. I think Apple needs to get off their lazy asses and address Europe properly. Just build damn sheds if you have to, cause people are crying out for your stores here, and there's none. It's a fucking joke."
iDon't give a crap about the camera myself, anyway in a device that thin trying to cram anything over a 2Mp camera in would be a waste of time. Now onto my real point, iDon't expect to see any non-3G iPhones in Europe at all. Oh and Mr. Samurai.. Video conferencing on a mobile phone is stupid.
[/IMG]
I wish you would change your user name, your half-assed opinions are giving the country a bad name!
You might have no use for greater camera resolution but I certainly do and so I expect would many others. I recently got some great shots while skiing using my 2mp phone camera - just wish I had even more res.
And why don't you go tell all the deaf people who communicate with each other by signing over video conference calls that you think the feature they rely on is stupid.
I wish you would change your user name, your half-assed opinions are giving the country a bad name! You might have no use for greater camera resolution but I certainly do and so I expect would many others. I recently got some great shots while skiing using my 2mp phone camera - just wish I had even more res.
And why don't you go tell all the deaf people who communicate with each other by signing over video conference calls that you think the feature they rely on is stupid.
I can't change my username, and if I could I certainly wouldn't do it for a noob like you. I take it you are not aware of the Megapixel myth? Well you are a noob. Noob is as noob does. I happen to have a deaf freind, and he finds texting quite adequate. He has also told me he thinks video conferencing on a mobile phone is stupid, as like most people. Sitting somewhere in public or standing on the street anywhere talking to your hand is the most ridiculous things ever and the connection is never really as good as is should be. Give me a break you idiot. Thank God Apple had the sense you clearly don't have, otherwise the iPhone would probably be petrol powered too.
I can't change my username, and if I could I certainly wouldn't do it for a noob like you. I take it you are not aware of the Megapixel myth? Well you are a noob. Noob is as noob does. I happen to have a deaf freind, and he finds texting quite adequate. He has also told me he thinks video conferencing on a mobile phone is stupid, as like most people. Sitting somewhere in public or standing on the street anywhere talking to your hand is the most ridiculous things ever and the connection is never really as good as is should be. Give me a break you idiot. Thank God Apple had the sense you clearly don't have, otherwise the iPhone would probably be petrol powered too.
I think you need to take some prozac, mate!
Or maybe a few pints of Guiness!
or Murphy's or Jamieson's
Chill man!
I think you need to take some prozac, mate!
We all need a little help from our friends now and then. I am going off to the pub with some ladies now, so that will have to do
Oh please. Complain about something important you (deleted).
That was really uncalled for, even though it wasn't directed at me.
.
The situation was discouraging enough that Apple reportedly left out the technology in its inaugural phone due to the limited amount of HSDPA coverage in the country.
Okay can anybody tell me why on earth I would get a $599 phone with 2 year contract and no HSDPA in June 2007.
As of November Cingular had (according to them: HSDPA in 134 US markets with populations of 100,000 or more. This may be less than Verizon or Sprint but how saturated do you think HSDPA will be a year from now when you still have 16 months left on your iPhone contract?
Cingular/AT&T currently offers the following HSDPA phones:
Samsung Blackjack $199
Cingular SYNC by Samsung $49 (in black, red and blue)
Cingular 8525 $399
MOTORAZR V3xx $49 ($99 for Dolce and Gabana Gold)
Samsung ZX20 $129 (currently also refurbed for $49)
Palm Treo 750 $399
LG CU500 $49
LG CU400 $9 (yes $9 and it plays streaming MPEG4 and Real Video, Bluetooth, push to talk )
Samsung ZX20 $129
Samsung ZX10 $49
And anyway I bet the people most likely to spend $500 or $600 are likely to live in one of the HSDPA markts. So why does Apple cripple their phone?
Remember when Steve announced that the iMac will have a 33.6 modem? I sense another retraction coming....
Anyway, I would say that the iPhone, as currently announced, has 3 main weaknesses:
- no 3G
- no 2nd camera
- Main camera trailing-edge technology
Unless Apple plans to only release a 3G model in Europe and Asia, they should go ahead and have 3G across the board now. Doesn't make much sense to add 6 months later.
The forwared facing camera would be cool. Jobs was coy about iChat on the iPhone, when asked about it he said he sees no reason why iChat cannot be included, I believe it'll be there. No camera for iChat would be an odd ommision considering every Mac ships with a camera. Such a camera could get away with being low resolution and comparatively cheap.
My biggest concern at the moment is storage. 4/8GB with no way to add additional storage is pretty slim for a device that stores and displays documents, pictures, audio, and video.
...otherwise the iPhone would probably be petrol powered too.