Latest Leopard build from Apple suggests much work ahead

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  • Reply 61 of 213
    eckingecking Posts: 1,588member
    I find it hilarious that apple kept going on and on about how vista was copying them and yet they're nowhere near being done.
  • Reply 62 of 213
    finewinefinewine Posts: 92member
    I for one will be bitterly disappointed if the "secret" features turn out to be something to do with iPhone. As I do not anticipate getting an iPhone, of what use would such "secret" features be to me? That wouldn't be fair to all OS purchasers to say: well, you need an iPhone. Any such features should be available to all operating systems purchasers, not just the iPhone users, otherwise it's misleading.



    And I must say, other than Spaces, Leopard - what we know for sure so far - does not excite me. Even Spaces can be approximated right now on Tiger with 3rd party applications. If there isn't at least a radical reworking of Finder, I may very well skip this release. I don't feel so far Leopard is enough of a leap over Tiger. Of course, I'll reserve judgment until Leopard ships, so we can take a look, but so far color me unimpressed. And even if I eventually get Leopard, I'm almost 100% sure I'm not going to buy it until well into 10.5.x, since I don't anticipate getting it until I buy new hardware (probably a new iMac). And hardware I will not buy until Penryn is incorporated. I may even get an MBP if they freshen up the design, get better heat control, better battery life and a LED screen. Right now I'm on a year old 12" iBook 1.33, and I'm also almost 100% sure I won't upgrade it with 10.5. So for me: 10.5 on new hardware, sometime 08 at the earliest.
  • Reply 63 of 213
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ecking View Post


    I find it hilarious that apple kept going on and on about how vista was copying them and yet they're nowhere near being done.



    Copying current releases of OS X, not OS X "Leopard".
  • Reply 64 of 213
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sandau View Post


    Longhorn aka Vista will be known as Platypus after Tiger is out, it'll make the Vista look like an extinct and funny looking animal.



    What the Platypus is not extinct at all, did you mean Dodo?
  • Reply 65 of 213
    abster2coreabster2core Posts: 2,501member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    You have to ask why though. The Intel version was kept secret for a reason. What is the reason to keep Leopard a secret? I can understand keeping out secret features but we're talking about core system features causing kernel panics. These releases are intended for developers testing their software against. I see no reason why they would deliberately give their developers unstable builds.



    The argument is compelling but only for the reason that we expect more from Apple not because there is any probability that it's true. I'm going to have to join the camp of people saying a WWDC release. I don't want to but the reality is that Apple are not keeping up. We're still waiting on product updates, they've delayed the Apple TVs and now we see Leopard in this state. It's just one disappointment after another.



    Get a life!
  • Reply 66 of 213
    abster2coreabster2core Posts: 2,501member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rhowarth View Post


    Hey, I hope not! I'm in the middle (ok, one third of the way through) downloading some 5+ GB of Leopard, all set to try it out on my new test machine and do some thorough testing. I hope I'm not going to all that effort for nothing :-)



    -Rolf



    Bull!
  • Reply 67 of 213
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  • Reply 68 of 213
    flounderflounder Posts: 2,674member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FineWine View Post


    I for one will be bitterly disappointed if the "secret" features turn out to be something to do with iPhone. As I do not anticipate getting an iPhone, of what use would such "secret" features be to me? That wouldn't be fair to all OS purchasers to say: well, you need an iPhone. Any such features should be available to all operating systems purchasers, not just the iPhone users, otherwise it's misleading.



    So you get bitter when someone gets something that's not for you? That's kinda sad.........
  • Reply 69 of 213
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,740member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dgalliford View Post


    OK, after reading these posts, along with looking at the surprises mac has unleashed in the past, I am going along with the following.



    The seeded version is a paired down version of Leopard, missing many enhancements. The interface design still looks the same in the seeded version. I truly believe, after seeing Time Machine as well as front row, that mac will be pushing a 3d interface. Think, folders on different z positions. Also, how many designers, including microsoft, jumped on the aqua interface bandwagon, incorporating it into their designs? I'm certain Mac has something hidden up their sleeve that will shift the thinking of design. I design sites using XHTML and CSS, and it doesn't take me more than a few hours to reskin a site. I'm sure the pro developers at Mac can do this. And what a way to catch Microsoft, and the rest of us, off guard. MS design their Aqua OS, which by the way is pretty impressive in looks - and I'm a Mac guy, and Mac flips the design industry by coming out with something completely different. Even switch the skin of the site. Now that would be impact!



    Looking at Time Machine, for instance, reminds me of a background image from Mortal Kombat. I hope this was a temporary image to show off the product rather than the final.



    As for a lot of features corrupting files and freezing Safari. This, pure speculation, could be due to the fact that they require the support of top secret features. Do you really think that Mac would be seeding an OS with so many bugs, especially if they plan on releasing Leopard in the next couple of months. Although, as good as they are about holding to deadlines, take a look at Apple TV and the rumored Final Cut Extreme.



    So I truly believe that Mac will bring forth a revolutionary product. Will it be completely bug free? Probably not. Heck, we glorify Volvo, but even they have recalls http://www.automotive.com/used-cars/...lvo/index.html. As for timetables, I truly believe we NEED to be patient. I would rather Mac spend the next 6 months getting their product "Right", than to rush it based on our impatience. Finally, all in all, I think Mac knows what they are doing. Running out seeds to developers, giving Microsoft a run for their money, as well as their placement in one of the top brands in the world definitely go to show that "Mac Means Business".



    Is this some kind of really intricate SPAM or something? You're a "Mac guy" and yet you keep on referring to Apple as "Mac" (hello, Mac is a product, Apple is a company, the two are not interchangeable) and where the hell did that random mention of Volvo come from?
  • Reply 70 of 213
    philipmphilipm Posts: 239member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sandau View Post


    Longhorn aka Vista will be known as Platypus after Tiger is out, it'll make the Vista look like an extinct and funny looking animal.



    A platypus is not extinct. And it is only "funny looking" if you are prejudiced. Watching a platypus swimming in the wild is an experience not to be missed.



    Longhorn is a funny enough name for Vista.
  • Reply 71 of 213
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post


    [Leopard's] on schedule. To say it is "not that late" is a misstatement.



    Actually, no one here knows whether or not Leopard's on schedule, only select folks at Apple would know for sure.



    Just because something has a release date that's in the future that hasn't been missed yet doesn't mean that its 'on schedule'. Under that logic, Longhorn was 'on schedule' until it missed its first ship date. Pretty obviously, that poor frakked up project was behind schedule almost from Day 1, which then CAUSED it to miss its ship date, and which point EVERYONE knew it was behind schedule.



    Cause-effect. You see what I'm getting at.



    .
  • Reply 72 of 213
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,949member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ecking View Post


    I find it hilarious that apple kept going on and on about how vista was copying them and yet they're nowhere near being done.



    I'll elaborate on another reply, Apple was the one that suggested that Vista is actually something akin to a copy of Tiger, and that Leopard was going beyond Vista, one banner at the last WWDC even called Leopard said "Vista 2.0".



    Anyway, I don't want Leopard released prematurely. I thought that Tiger was released prematurely, it was a little unstable on my PowerMac until about 10.4.4.
  • Reply 73 of 213
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ecking View Post


    I find it hilarious that apple kept going on and on about how vista was copying them and yet they're nowhere near being done.



    Wow… I love all these references to Vista. Especially concern that any delays on Apple’s part would some how represent some sort of great catastrophe. I honesty wonder how many people here actually use Vista on a regular basis? At this point I’ve probably setup, configured, and customized over 150 separate Vista machines, pre-installed on brand new hardware.



    Vista offers a few advances over OS X. You have more control over searching and they really did do a good job of implementing their ‘Spotlight’ search solution. Spotlight itself is more polished, but if you are looking for something specific you are happier in Vista. That said, I imagine 10.5 will trounce this MS implementation quite thoroughly. Media Center features are more expansive in Vista though less polished and much more confusing. With Apple’s initiative in this category they’ll no doubt make leaps and strides over the next year or two. I’m planning my future media center around Macintosh—this is a given for me. Microsoft’s answer to iPhoto is also worth making note of. It includes many features found in Aperture (but not enough to make it a competitor on that level), presenting them in a consumer level program. It isn’t as stable as people might expect, though. Apple will, no doubt, answer this challenge by beefing up iPhoto. DirectX 10 is an advancement but it is still proprietary. MS is implementing it only in Vista and plans to release Vista-exclusive games to force their userbase to upgrade (Bungie, anyone?). Internet Explorer 7 is a huge advance over IE 6, but it is slower, buggier, and in general inferior to Safari. They truly are taking the application in a good direction, though.



    Other Vista features are pretty much washed down or poorly implemented variations of Macintosh counterparts. The Aero GUI—I really don’t care much for it. The transparency is basically a resource intensive blur of elements behind a given window and the text is simple black text with a white glow. It looks quite good (where Microsoft has polished it) but nowhere near as polished as OS X. The other ‘iLife’ applications are poor low-featured copies of iLife itself. Flip3D (Exposé) is horrible. I absolutely hate the Gadgets/Sidebar implementation and they use way too much resources (we’ve salvaged 150+ MB of RAM by disabling this feature on machines while each Widget in Mac OS X uses more like 7 MBs—and I still don’t use them much).



    Expanded [system resources] through flash cards is essentially useless. Other features like storing wireless settings on flash cards aren’t really too exciting. Many components of the OS are basically their XP counterparts with a varied ‘Vista’ look but no under-the-hood improvements (if you want to see the ugly-inside look at the admin-level control panels). In fact, much of the OS itself is still rehashed XP/2K/ME—Vista is not a ground up remake like OS X was.



    This brings us to another important discussion: security. Microsoft worked hard with Vista to implement security features similar to what you might find in even the earlier versions of OS X. They did make the OS much more secure—it is actually doing very well presently in terms of malware threats—but it is all patchwork; remakes of previous components. Apple had a huge advantage here with its UNIX core and the fact they weren’t patching—they were building from the ground up. Windows will probably never be as secure as an OS until they do this—I doubt they will anytime in the upcoming future—and even then they’ll have to put security ahead of the interests of their business customers. I don’t see that happening. That Get a Mac campaign ad jesting about PC’s security agent? Yeah, wait until you actually use Vista and you will fully appreciate that humor.



    Resources, resources, resources. Vista uses massive resources to deliver this upgraded presentation. The typical Vista machine depends on anywhere from 2x or more to function after boot than the modern Mac OS (and 10.5 is supposed to be much faster, too!) If you want to enjoy your Vista machine you better start with a great graphics card and at least 1GB RAM. Want to be productive? Well, Jimmy, max your RAM out and hope for a well-made service pack. There’s a reason why my Microsoft buddies are waiting for at least SP1 to even mess with this beast.



    How does it compare to Mac OS X in terms of actual day-to-day use? I feel like I’m using 10.0 again—really. Buggy, much slower than XP (which was much slower than Win 2K), unstable, and frustrating. I really disliked 10.0—I disliked 10.1!—and using Vista gives that same yucky feeling.



    So, no. Microsoft is not contending with Mac OS X at this point. They have a long way to go. They have started moving in the right direction, though. Unless Steve leaves Apple for some reason or another and the company falls back into the mess it was in prior to Steve’s return and Microsoft partnership announcement Microsoft will always be playing catchup with the Mac OS.



    So there it is. Don’t worry about possible delays from Apple. They do a marvelous job of following through with their announcements (comparatively speaking) and if they do delay something you can bet it is for a good reason. As for me, I use Intel Macs and I’m sold on 10.5 simply for the performance enhancements as applied to these new systems. Everything else is candy. Well, that and I’m looking forward to the new Spotlight and redesigned Finder.



    I couldn’t begin to speculate on the rest of this discussion.
  • Reply 74 of 213
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    Is this some kind of really intricate SPAM or something? You're a "Mac guy" and yet you keep on referring to Apple as "Mac" (hello, Mac is a product, Apple is a company, the two are not interchangeable) and where the hell did that random mention of Volvo come from?



    No this is not some sort of intricate span. Yes I am a Mac guy or Apple guy. Regardless, I enjoy my 2.5 G5 Quad. And I enjoyed my G4, and my beige G3 when I bought it, and the PPC 7200. Yeah, I've been a Appl... I mean Mac user for quite some time now. What kind of community are we in that we have to run attacks on each other's posts? We're Mac users people, not enemies. Regardless, I used the Volvo reference, because it is a brand that many trust. It is the pinnacle of auto safety. With the money they spend in R&D and testing, one would think they could put out a product that was flawless. Well, not to bash Volvo, but they aren't perfect. My point is this, Apple is a great brand, much like Volvo. They have great design, rigorously tested and at the forefront of technology. Apple is also not perfect. I am absolutely sure that Leopard will have some bugs. We, as consumers, need to remember this and also remember at what point of a product's life cycle do we choose to jump on at. Those at the beginning obviously experience more of the bugs (OS 10.1 & 10.2). Then there is product maturity (10.3-10.4). Then, there is the late stage of a product's life (OS10.4.8), when 95% or more of the bugs are flushed.



    Just remember what part of the cycle you jump on at, and the risk or benefits that come with that decision.



    Finally, I realize the difference between Mac & Apple. In the rush of writing my comment (not an article by the way), I missed this. Let's not focus on this, but at the fact that Apple will more than likely change the face of our industry - AGAIN.
  • Reply 75 of 213
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,740member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dgalliford View Post


    What kind of community are we in that we have to run attacks on each other's posts?



    Sorry dude. Er? Welcome to Appleinsider! I suppose that would have been a nicer response to your first post . But please understand that more often that not, when people repeatedly refer to Apple as "Mac", it usually means that they are a troll or a spammer. It looks like on this occasion you are neither.



    So, in response to the content of your first post, I really don't think we'll see a 3D interface. Sure, there's an element of 3D-ness in TimeMachine, but I think that'll be as far as it goes. I believe people have tried 3D interfaces in the past and it hasn't really worked. Where is the advantage over what we have now?
  • Reply 76 of 213
    amoryaamorya Posts: 1,103member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Louzer View Post


    10.1 was free for some owners. Others still had to pay $20 shipping and handling since you could only get the free version at your not-so-local apple store.



    And you only have to wait until 10.5.3 or 10.5.4 for the bugs to be ironed out. And you'll like it!



    It wasn't $20.



    In the UK, it was £2.50 shipping (about $4 at the exchange rates of the time). And given Apple's tendency to overcharge the UK, I can't imagine they would have given it us cheaper than in the US!



    Amorya
  • Reply 77 of 213
    amoryaamorya Posts: 1,103member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FineWine View Post


    And I must say, other than Spaces, Leopard - what we know for sure so far - does not excite me. Even Spaces can be approximated right now on Tiger with 3rd party applications. If there isn't at least a radical reworking of Finder, I may very well skip this release. I don't feel so far Leopard is enough of a leap over Tiger. Of course, I'll reserve judgment until Leopard ships, so we can take a look, but so far color me unimpressed.



    I'm very impressed. As a developer, I can't wait until I can start making Leopard-only apps. And I think many people feel the same. The improvements for developers are huge.



    Which means...



    there will be a load of apps which require Leopard as a minimum. So even though there aren't that many new consumer features (although Time Machine itself is pretty significant IMO), consumers will need to upgrade if they want to use new software being released. For all of you complaining about lack of reason to upgrade, do factor that into your decision!
  • Reply 78 of 213
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,278member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Xian Zhu Xuande View Post


    Wow? I love all these references to Vista. Especially concern that any delays on Apple?s part would some how represent some sort of great catastrophe. I honesty wonder how many people here actually use Vista on a regular basis? At this point I?ve probably setup, configured, and customized over 150 separate Vista machines, pre-installed on brand new hardware.



    .



    Xian welcome to the boards! Great first post. Vista looks like it'll be decent after a solid Service Pack. I don't really bash it that much because XP is getting old and crusty and needs to be replaced.



    I think Leopard is going to be pretty damn nice. I don't know what the Top Secret features are but if Apple just delivers a fairly stable release then I'm pretty happy.



    I too am building my media center stuff around Apple. The Apple TV looks like a decent start. I imagine in 5 years we're going to have some mind boggling toys to play with.
  • Reply 79 of 213
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lantzn View Post


    That would be cool, a new gui with tons of outstanding new features that blow the doors off Redmond. Why not just release OSXI (OS Eleven) Apple and really suprise us all.



    OSXI (pronounced: oh sexy)
  • Reply 80 of 213
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sandau View Post


    Longhorn aka Vista will be known as Platypus after Tiger is out, it'll make the Vista look like an extinct and funny looking animal.



    The platypus isn't extinct.
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