Latest Leopard build from Apple suggests much work ahead

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  • Reply 81 of 213
    rolorolo Posts: 686member
    Geez, what a bunch of whining BS. People, get a grip. The developer community is a giant sieve for Apple so they aren't about to spill the beans by shipping an update out to developers with all the beans inside, ready to be spilled. Those developer updates have what developers need to make their own apps work. No more, no less. Developers don't need any of the top secret features to make their apps work.



    My guess is Leopard will be shipping around mid-May or so. If Apple is having a special event at NAB on April 15 to introduce Final Cut Studio 6, and since it's probably dependent upon Leopard, it'll probably ship just after Leopard does. The iPhone is also dependent upon Leopard and it'll be shipping in June.



    So, don't expect Leopard to be delayed based on these stupid AI and TS reports. Those running Leopard beta have no idea what Apple has running in its lab. Also, it's just dumb to assume Apple would ship out a buggy OS. The people who ensure that it's solid are very dedicated and hard working. Don't sell 'em short.
  • Reply 82 of 213
    So much rumors around Leopard, but in the end it is getting a little late. Apple has to ship Leopard this Spring to remain on schedule with their initial announcement of Leopard last year.

    I hope they have a good plan to beat vista in marketing. If fact I read something like they will feature the words "BEYOND VISTA" in their upcoming Leopard ads...



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    www.mostofmymac.com
  • Reply 83 of 213
    I realize I am a newbie around here, but has anyone mentioned the idea that maybe Leopard will be installable on any Intel product and could potentially displace Windows on any Wintel machine. Yes I know it would hurt hardware sales - just a thought.



    Newbie out!
  • Reply 84 of 213
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,949member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tron1982 View Post


    I realize I am a newbie around here, but has anyone mentioned the idea that maybe Leopard will be installable on any Intel product and could potentially displace Windows on any Wintel machine. Yes I know it would hurt hardware sales - just a thought.



    It's possible. The question is how likely it would be. Allowing Mac OS Installation on third party hardware has been tried and I hear it really hurt Apple. I don't know if it would still be true today or not, it's anyones guess. Currently, Apple makes most of its money with hardware, I think their software sales is about 15% that of their computer sales income, and that software includes the OS updates, iLife upgrades, iWork, Final Cut Express and all their pro software too. As much as I'd like it to happen, I really don't see it happening.
  • Reply 85 of 213
    akacakac Posts: 511member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FineWine View Post


    I for one will be bitterly disappointed if the "secret" features turn out to be something to do with iPhone. As I do not anticipate getting an iPhone, of what use would such "secret" features be to me? That wouldn't be fair to all OS purchasers to say: well, you need an iPhone. Any such features should be available to all operating systems purchasers, not just the iPhone users, otherwise it's misleading.



    And I must say, other than Spaces, Leopard - what we know for sure so far - does not excite me. Even Spaces can be approximated right now on Tiger with 3rd party applications. If there isn't at least a radical reworking of Finder, I may very well skip this release. I don't feel so far Leopard is enough of a leap over Tiger. Of course, I'll reserve judgment until Leopard ships, so we can take a look, but so far color me unimpressed. And even if I eventually get Leopard, I'm almost 100% sure I'm not going to buy it until well into 10.5.x, since I don't anticipate getting it until I buy new hardware (probably a new iMac). And hardware I will not buy until Penryn is incorporated. I may even get an MBP if they freshen up the design, get better heat control, better battery life and a LED screen. Right now I'm on a year old 12" iBook 1.33, and I'm also almost 100% sure I won't upgrade it with 10.5. So for me: 10.5 on new hardware, sometime 08 at the earliest.



    You assume that an OS is independent of applications. There are three reasons you are going to buy Leopard:



    1) You buy a new Mac that requires it

    2) You buy a piece of software that requires it or is vastly improved in it

    3) You like Leopard on its own.



    #3 is the least likeliest reason for anyone to buy an OS. I'd say 50% of Leopard buyers will be #1 and the other 40% will be #2 leaving 10% for those who just want the newest OS.



    Seriously, everyone is talking about what Leopard brings you on its own. Who runs an OS by itself? Just like many apps today require 10.4, very quickly many apps will require 10.5. Already Textmate 2.0, Delicious Library 2.0 do. If small developers that rely on every sale already have decided that Leopard is the minimum they will support it shows that the OS provides some key features to them that let them do what they do best even better. And thats why you'll buy Leopard.
  • Reply 86 of 213
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,949member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Akac View Post


    Seriously, everyone is talking about what Leopard brings you on its own. Who runs an OS by itself? Just like many apps today require 10.4, very quickly many apps will require 10.5. Already Textmate 2.0, Delicious Library 2.0 do. If small developers that rely on every sale already have decided that Leopard is the minimum they will support it shows that the OS provides some key features to them that let them do what they do best even better.



    Looking at the Textmate blog, they explain the reasons, which largely revolves around the reduction in development cost by only supporting one revision, and the fact that the Textmate user base is largely the early-adopter type, which will not necessarily be reflected in the user base of other software.



    Quote:

    And thats why you'll buy Leopard.



    That's an awfully bold position to take.
  • Reply 87 of 213
    akacakac Posts: 511member
    True for Textmate - but that was just one example. There will be a lot more. As for a bold statement? I don't think so. Honestly I'm just looking at why people moved to XP, why many will eventually move to Vista; why people moved from one OS X release to another. Look at the past 10 years of OS releases - its not bold. Its just what's happened before and common knowledge.



    I am NOT saying you'll buy Leopard the moment it hits the shelves. ButI am saying you will buy it (whether as part of a new computer or in a box) based on the above. And for you to buy it in a box it really comes down to applications.
  • Reply 88 of 213
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,949member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Akac View Post


    True for Textmate - but that was just one example. There will be a lot more. As for a bold statement? I don't think so. Honestly I'm just looking at why people moved to XP, why many will eventually move to Vista; why people moved from one OS X release to another. Look at the past 10 years of OS releases - its not bold. Its just what's happened before and common knowledge.



    I am NOT saying you'll buy Leopard the moment it hits the shelves. ButI am saying you will buy it (whether as part of a new computer or in a box) based on the above. And for you to buy it in a box it really comes down to applications.



    The way the last paragraph of the previous post was worded, it sounded like you were saying that that individual will update the OS solely because of the third party software, and that looked pretty bold to me. I don't think it's the apps that drive most of the OS updates for most people, but simply new/replaced machines. I am fairly certain this is the case with your Windows updates, it takes a few years for the newest version to get to a dominant installed base. It's a little less of an issue with OS X because the OS upgrade cost is lower, but I still think it is still largely an update that largely happens because of the need for a machine replacement.



    I do agree that the transition is going to happen eventually, there may have some disagreement (or disagreement based on confusion) on why the update will take place. The person you responded to already suggested that they most likely will get it when the current machine is replaced.
  • Reply 89 of 213
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,909member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by PiP View Post


    My Theory - I'm sure there are a lot of issues and problems in the stripped down, feature barren releases that Apple is letting outside of its doors. Remember that this is the same company that is so guarded about its secrets that it created fake iPhone prototypes to throw off partners and people inside the company while developing that product. Leopard isn't any different. Steve Jobs has already said that there are these "top secret" features to the new OS and we've not seen any of those - indicating to me that they're stripping these from the beta software that they're giving to developers. I'm sure there is another set of code around the Cupertino campus which includes the full set of features and probably a lot less bugs. I could be wrong, but that's my theory. 8)



    That would mean that any internal builds that have those "secret" functions would be even buggier than the ones outside developers see.



    Anyway, some of those features have already come out.
  • Reply 90 of 213
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,909member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post


    And yet, that would still be meeting their Spring target. (Spring ends June 21.) I gotta say, I've been expecting that timeframe all along - assume they got it polished, ready, and perfect by March 31. They could either try and step up all other efforts (marketing, production, etc) to meet that, including stepping up any hardware projects that may be tied to 10.5... or they could spend the time to add in some features that had been slated for 10.5.1. ie, more bugs. Too many other things are going to be tied to 10.5's release, I just don't see them shipping it early.



    Yeah, well, those of us who have been saying this, have been battered by those who want it as soon as possible. We seem to be destroying their dream.
  • Reply 91 of 213
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,909member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post


    We shouldn't forget that Apple denied that it kept a version of OS X for Intel processors a secret for years. This build is probably just smoke and mirrors.



    Can you come up with any logical reason why Apple would do that with this? Now that Vista is out, it no longer matters. We are talking about a few months, at most. Once it's out, everyone will see it. There's just no point in concealing anything to make it look worse than it already is, in the builds.
  • Reply 92 of 213
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,909member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Louzer View Post


    Sorry, that's a bad theory. Ignoring the whole stripped out 'secret' features, there's no reason for apple to strip out bug fixes for all these components. Since the releases are for testing your software (and to test the OS itself), how can you be sure your software will work if you can't even access network shares reliably, or certain conditions always cause a crash?



    And who are they trying to throw off? The only competitor is MS, and are they sitting around going "Hey, Leopard still is buggy, we can goof off for a week...Wait! Its been released??? Arrrgggghhhh! We're screwed now!



    I agree with you here.
  • Reply 93 of 213
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,909member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    Is this some kind of really intricate SPAM or something? You're a "Mac guy" and yet you keep on referring to Apple as "Mac" (hello, Mac is a product, Apple is a company, the two are not interchangeable) and where the hell did that random mention of Volvo come from?



    Ah, you beat me to it!
  • Reply 94 of 213
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,909member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post


    Actually, no one here knows whether or not Leopard's on schedule, only select folks at Apple would know for sure.



    Just because something has a release date that's in the future that hasn't been missed yet doesn't mean that its 'on schedule'. Under that logic, Longhorn was 'on schedule' until it missed its first ship date. Pretty obviously, that poor frakked up project was behind schedule almost from Day 1, which then CAUSED it to miss its ship date, and which point EVERYONE knew it was behind schedule.



    Cause-effect. You see what I'm getting at.



    .



    I think what he means is that until (and unless) Apple says that it's being pushed back?officially, then we can assume it's on schedule.
  • Reply 95 of 213
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,909member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dgalliford View Post


    No this is not some sort of intricate span. Yes I am a Mac guy or Apple guy. Regardless, I enjoy my 2.5 G5 Quad. And I enjoyed my G4, and my beige G3 when I bought it, and the PPC 7200. Yeah, I've been a Appl... I mean Mac user for quite some time now. What kind of community are we in that we have to run attacks on each other's posts? We're Mac users people, not enemies. Regardless, I used the Volvo reference, because it is a brand that many trust. It is the pinnacle of auto safety. With the money they spend in R&D and testing, one would think they could put out a product that was flawless. Well, not to bash Volvo, but they aren't perfect. My point is this, Apple is a great brand, much like Volvo. They have great design, rigorously tested and at the forefront of technology. Apple is also not perfect. I am absolutely sure that Leopard will have some bugs. We, as consumers, need to remember this and also remember at what point of a product's life cycle do we choose to jump on at. Those at the beginning obviously experience more of the bugs (OS 10.1 & 10.2). Then there is product maturity (10.3-10.4). Then, there is the late stage of a product's life (OS10.4.8), when 95% or more of the bugs are flushed.



    Just remember what part of the cycle you jump on at, and the risk or benefits that come with that decision.



    Finally, I realize the difference between Mac & Apple. In the rush of writing my comment (not an article by the way), I missed this. Let's not focus on this, but at the fact that Apple will more than likely change the face of our industry - AGAIN.



    We're used to "Mac" as a company name being used by trolls. Nothing personal, but if you learn the conventions, then people won't comment on the ones you use.
  • Reply 96 of 213
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,909member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rolo View Post


    Geez, what a bunch of whining BS. People, get a grip. The developer community is a giant sieve for Apple so they aren't about to spill the beans by shipping an update out to developers with all the beans inside, ready to be spilled. Those developer updates have what developers need to make their own apps work. No more, no less. Developers don't need any of the top secret features to make their apps work.



    My guess is Leopard will be shipping around mid-May or so. If Apple is having a special event at NAB on April 15 to introduce Final Cut Studio 6, and since it's probably dependent upon Leopard, it'll probably ship just after Leopard does. The iPhone is also dependent upon Leopard and it'll be shipping in June.



    So, don't expect Leopard to be delayed based on these stupid AI and TS reports. Those running Leopard beta have no idea what Apple has running in its lab. Also, it's just dumb to assume Apple would ship out a buggy OS. The people who ensure that it's solid are very dedicated and hard working. Don't sell 'em short.



    You have no better foundation to your assumptions.



    Software development always costs more, and takes longer. A year ago, jobs said that 10.5 would be out around the end of the year, or so. Apple has already pushed it back.
  • Reply 97 of 213
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,909member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tron1982 View Post


    I realize I am a newbie around here, but has anyone mentioned the idea that maybe Leopard will be installable on any Intel product and could potentially displace Windows on any Wintel machine. Yes I know it would hurt hardware sales - just a thought.



    Newbie out!



    No, it will not be. Apple has made that very clear.
  • Reply 98 of 213
    bjeanesbjeanes Posts: 1member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sandau View Post


    Longhorn aka Vista will be known as Platypus after Tiger is out, it'll make the Vista look like an extinct and funny looking animal.



    Er.. the platypus is *not* extinct... just so you know :-O
  • Reply 99 of 213
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,740member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rolo View Post


    Those developer updates have what developers need to make their own apps work. No more, no less. Developers don't need any of the top secret features to make their apps work.



    Well, you're making a pretty sweeping assumption there about the "top secret" features, aren't you?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rolo View Post


    Also, it's just dumb to assume Apple would ship out a buggy OS. The people who ensure that it's solid are very dedicated and hard working. Don't sell 'em short.



    What? Just like 10.3 and 10.4 didn't ship with serious bugs on first release? Oh wait? they did.
  • Reply 100 of 213
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    Xian welcome to the boards! Great first post. Vista looks like it'll be decent after a solid Service Pack. I don't really bash it that much because XP is getting old and crusty and needs to be replaced.



    I think Leopard is going to be pretty damn nice. I don't know what the Top Secret features are but if Apple just delivers a fairly stable release then I'm pretty happy.



    I too am building my media center stuff around Apple. The Apple TV looks like a decent start. I imagine in 5 years we're going to have some mind boggling toys to play with.



    Thank you. I?ve lurked for quite some time now!



    Vista?s biggest problems will be resolved with time?mostly usability concerns?and it will become easier to use, I imagine, when they tone down the security features. Its biggest problem, resource usage, probably won?t be resolved any time soon. More than anything else this makes upgrading to Vista pretty impractical?and usually means you would have been better off with a new XP machine at this time. We?ll just have to see what happens! Either way, I?m perfectly content with my lovely Mac OS.



    I imagine Leopard will hit the shelves with some bugs?that it will be buggier than Tiger. This is pretty normal for them (and is actually to be expected from any program this complicated, including apps like Photoshop and Dreamweaver), but they also have a wonderful trackrecord of fixing issues quickly once it is on consumer computers. In honesty speed and reliability are the most interesting features for me. Apple doesn?t charge much for OS upgrades (compared to, say, Microsoft) so it balances out.



    Not sure what I think of the Apple TV yet! I don?t know how well it works with non-HD televisions. Apple hasn?t discussed that much either. Between this, and other HD products like the PS3 and the XBox 360, I wonder just how many people out there really have HD TVs to enjoy? Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing what ol? Jobs can do to make entertainment in your living room fun and exciting?to make sure it just works.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tron1982 View Post


    I realize I am a newbie around here, but has anyone mentioned the idea that maybe Leopard will be installable on any Intel product and could potentially displace Windows on any Wintel machine. Yes I know it would hurt hardware sales - just a thought.



    Not going to happen, I?m afraid. Clones were among the first things Jobs wanted to kill when he took over for his second reign. The reason is simple. Microsoft, for example, answers to all these hardware companies?HP, Gateway, Toshiba, Sony?and has very little control over how new features are implemented. In addition, having a computer full of third party products creates a less user-friendly experience and a comparatively unstable OS. Apple delivers a superior user experience because they control both the hardware and the software. Also, it is from the hardware that Apple makes money. If they opened the OS to clones this would hurt them (as it did when the company was suffering).



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Can you come up with any logical reason why Apple would do that with this? Now that Vista is out, it no longer matters. We are talking about a few months, at most. Once it's out, everyone will see it. There's just no point in concealing anything to make it look worse than it already is, in the builds.



    Theatrics, of course. Let?s face it?those among us that are obsessed enough with Apple products to minutely examine the pre-release builds are going to buy Apple software regardless. Upon release we?re not going to say, ?man, they weren?t honest with the pre-release builds so I?m going to boycott Apple!? We?ll make our decision based on features and usefulness and, odds are, unless we?re short on money we?ll wind up upgrading at some point anyway. I wonder how many people in this forum still use 10.3?



    Apple need only present to the standard consumer.
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