I always thought Quark was pretty easy (as somebody who moved to it from Pagemaker about 5 years ago). Of course I'm not doing really complicated documents -- just magazine ads and CD packages. I guess if you're doing big catalogs or brochures or whatever it might be hard. The only concept I thought was weird at first was the idea of text boxes versus image boxes.
What's Freeway like in terms of site management? Even though Dreamweaver's ftp implementation really seems to suck, maintaining a decently-sized site (I've got around 400 or 500 active pages, I think) has really been a breeze. I downloaded the demo of GoLive 5, and it terrified me. I didn't really know what it was doing, so I uninstalled about as quickly as I had installed it.
<strong>What's Freeway like in terms of site management?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Site management is certainly one of Freeway's strengths... you work in your site document, which containes everything (just like an XPress layout, hence the comparisons), and the site code is generated on demand - a form of 'just in time' code production that ensures things are always optimised and efficient, no leftover crap from older revisions.
Anyway, uploading via built-in ftp is managed in the same way; outdated stuff is updated or removed as necessary, automatically.
Oh, and on the 'Quark is easy' front, what should have been said is Freeway works like QuarkXPress, with the tried-and-tested DTP approach to page construction. BUT it is actually easier and more logical. :-)
(It also has always had a useful 'Fit Box To Picture' command, something that *might* appear in XPress 5, a decade late. ;-)
It does require a bit of a fresh way of looking at Website production, but what you get is highly optimised code, built-in graphic generation and optimising, automatic site management...
Quark isn't easy to learn but it can be easy to use once you're up and running. Freeway is particularly easy if you've used Quark because it uses a vey similar style, including many matching keyboard shortcuts.
I started with CyberStudio and progressed through to GoLive 4 before jumping ship and switching to Freeway. It's something I've never regretted. Support is second to none and the Freeway list is as friendly as the CyberStudio one used to be. It probably won't suit the codeheads but anyone else should try Freeway before they buy anything else. There's a full working demo available at <a href="http://www.softpress.com"; target="_blank">Softpress Systems</a>
<strong>What's Freeway like in terms of site management? Even though Dreamweaver's ftp implementation really seems to suck, maintaining a decently-sized site (I've got around 400 or 500 active pages, I think) has really been a breeze. I downloaded the demo of GoLive 5, and it terrified me. I didn't really know what it was doing, so I uninstalled about as quickly as I had installed it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I maintain around 2 dozen sites, ranging in size from a couple dozen pages to over 3 thousand pages, and so for a long time I stayed with GoLive (have v6 on order) because it was the better multi-site management tool. Now I expect DW is fairly close in capabilities, perhaps better in some features, but this decision goes back to the DW 1.2 days, and I haven't bothered to try and switch. However, a year ago I began to do some developmental work using FreeWay 3.1 and I really like what it can do. However, it's not very good to use to "take over" an existing site. It's better for creating sites and it does a great job of maintaining a site that was created with it.
The question as to site maintenace is a valid concern, and I'm changing how I deal with it, because even GoLive has some problems with large sites. What I've come up with is causing me to re-think whether I need to stick with GoLive (or DW), at least based upon the site maintenance features alone. I'm using Interarchy 5.1 to keep FTPDisks (mirrors, really, but that mount on your desktop similar to iDisks) of each site I maintain or handle. I point the editor to the UNmounted directory when I'm actively working on a particular site. When I'm done and am ready for the site to be updated, I simply mount the FTPDisk in Interarchy and let it synchronize the changes. For non-collaborative projects, this seems to work well. For collaborative projects, you need something like DW with it's check-out/in system.
Anyway, based on the tests so far, I may move more and more development work AND maintenance work to FreeWay during the coming year. My goal is generally to have one WYSIWYG tool plus BBEdit to do all my editing of existing sites. I don't really want to have some sites maintained in FreeWay and some in DW or GL, so that's why I'm looking carefully at the method I handle multiple site maintenance.
For those looking to try something new, I highly recommend FreeWay, especially if you have any desktop publishing experience on the Mac. It's very fluid from that standpoint. Also, the discussion list is excellent, and I'd say generally a little beyond what the DW and GL lists currently offer from the standpoint of fast, friendly, effective advice/counsel.
If you are experienced in coding, certainly you could run through the tutorial and decide in a day or so whether it offers you any missing tools. It works well with databases, especially SQL using PHP tags.
ok as a first time 'poster' - and hopefull not the last - i'd just like to add something to this thread that i hope you may like to read.
it's actually a posting sent to the excellent Freewaytalk forum this morning<uk time> and speaks for itself on what i think about Freeway and why i love it so much. as much as my mac
> In December I used the H Tags action to add H Tags to my Caravanwise
> site in order to get a better page ranking on those search engines
> that look for H tagged words. Google uses H tags as a major part of
> its page ranking BUT if the H tag is changed by CSS as is the case
> when using the action then Google assumes that you are trying to
> cheat the system and delists you.
>
> The result I've gone from a page rank of 3 for the most widely used
> search term to being completely expelled from Google. I've mended the
> problem but have no idea how long it will take to get back in.
Phil i was thinking about what has happened early this morning - which is
usually my best time for my best thinking - and was wondering how this sorry
state of affairs had come about. going back i can remember you raising the
H tag thing quite strongly a couple of months ago. at the time i didn't
take much notice of it, not intentionally anyway, as i steer well clear of
all coded matters. i selected freeway for it's creative simplicity, power
and versatility. without having to trawl along the arduous road of learning
html/css/and_the_rest. what's the point? it's all inclusive so why worry
about working on code when it's already there.
which reminded me of a book i'd often read years ago written by robert
pirsig 'zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance' hyped as one of the most
profoundly important blah blah of someone in search of themselves. well i
liked what i read. i'm not a prolific book reader but this and catch 22
would what i would take if i was stranded on a desert island.
i can't remember if H tags was ever part of prisig's 'chautauqua's' but i'm
sure they must have been in some form or other. try and avoid being too
serious about your own position.
hope everying goes well for you
best wishes
george
--
<---it's one thing to able to solve design problems...but
it's much much harder to give a personality and life to it..
yet infinitately more satisfying - and i think the new imac has it---->
Freeway is an excellent app. I have been using it for several years and have found it to be quite stable and the support to be second to none. I use both FW and GoLive 5. One of the problems with FW is that you really can not pick up a project that has already been done and start working on it. That is why I also use GoLive. Another one is that while you can make inline CSS super easily you can't make an external style sheet. So that leaves out any sophisticated CSS only layouts.
I think that if you want to get the work done quickly and effectively, FW is a great solution. It is Mac only which is fun and you can quickly do things like layers, rollovers, forms, edit graphics, format text and the like that can be so time consuming in DW, GL or by hand. You can really bang a site out ina fraction of the time of the other methods and with far less browser compatability trouble.
But if you want to put out extra efficient code with out spacers and nested tables, you have to be very careful and deliberate. It tends to go table crazy. However, the javascript is is real clean and quick to load, I think. GL's can be a bit of load.
Softpress is coming out with a new version of FW that is OSX native, which will be great. I plan to have both GL6 and FW 3.5.
<strong>What's with that extremely un-Aqua-like interface? I had to double-check and make sure Classic mode wasn't running when I tried out Freeway.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Classic was running. Freeway 3.5, which is due out in a few weeks, will be carbonized.
<strong>That explains why it looked so un-aqua-like, but doesn't explain why I _thought_ I verified that Classic wasn't running...</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're right, it doesn't. :-) It looks like a Classic app to me!
I plan on trying out GL 6 on X. If I'm not satisfied then I will look at other apps. I will probably look at Freeway, which reminds me of another Mac only web design app I used: World Wide Web Weaver. Was pretty good at the time. Then I moved to BBEdit > Cyberstudio > GoLive.
I don't have a lot of confidence in GL 6. Keepin' my fingers crossed though.
Aw, come on. Quark Xpress is the easiest thing since sliced bread. Just gotta grow the wheat, tend it, harvest it, grind it, make it self-rising, create a recipe, make the dough, make it rise, slap it around (hey that's what they say to do), bake it and then find a knife sharp enough to cut it without making a mess or cutting one's self.
Yeah. 'Bout like Xpress.
And I DO think Xpress is pretty easy (a pain in the backside, but easier than hand cutting and pasting).
As for GoLive, I use it a lot. It crashes on big sites. But the pages are pretty trim if you don't use the grid-thang.
So I wasted 3 semesters in design school on it?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes you did, hahahaha. Quark is easy as hell to learn, it just happens to suck ass which kinda negates it's easiness. I taught myself to use it in less then 3 months. I'm not saying I'm a quark master but it isn't as difficult to learn as you are making it out to be, espeically 3 fricking semesters, lol
Comments
I remember the older versions didn't have it. But not sure about the new one....
<strong>What's Freeway like in terms of site management?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Site management is certainly one of Freeway's strengths... you work in your site document, which containes everything (just like an XPress layout, hence the comparisons), and the site code is generated on demand - a form of 'just in time' code production that ensures things are always optimised and efficient, no leftover crap from older revisions.
Anyway, uploading via built-in ftp is managed in the same way; outdated stuff is updated or removed as necessary, automatically.
Oh, and on the 'Quark is easy' front, what should have been said is Freeway works like QuarkXPress, with the tried-and-tested DTP approach to page construction. BUT it is actually easier and more logical. :-)
(It also has always had a useful 'Fit Box To Picture' command, something that *might* appear in XPress 5, a decade late. ;-)
It does require a bit of a fresh way of looking at Website production, but what you get is highly optimised code, built-in graphic generation and optimising, automatic site management...
'Tis a cool thing indeed.
k
I started with CyberStudio and progressed through to GoLive 4 before jumping ship and switching to Freeway. It's something I've never regretted. Support is second to none and the Freeway list is as friendly as the CyberStudio one used to be. It probably won't suit the codeheads but anyone else should try Freeway before they buy anything else. There's a full working demo available at <a href="http://www.softpress.com"; target="_blank">Softpress Systems</a>
[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: ironclad ]</p>
<strong>What's Freeway like in terms of site management? Even though Dreamweaver's ftp implementation really seems to suck, maintaining a decently-sized site (I've got around 400 or 500 active pages, I think) has really been a breeze. I downloaded the demo of GoLive 5, and it terrified me. I didn't really know what it was doing, so I uninstalled about as quickly as I had installed it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I maintain around 2 dozen sites, ranging in size from a couple dozen pages to over 3 thousand pages, and so for a long time I stayed with GoLive (have v6 on order) because it was the better multi-site management tool. Now I expect DW is fairly close in capabilities, perhaps better in some features, but this decision goes back to the DW 1.2 days, and I haven't bothered to try and switch. However, a year ago I began to do some developmental work using FreeWay 3.1 and I really like what it can do. However, it's not very good to use to "take over" an existing site. It's better for creating sites and it does a great job of maintaining a site that was created with it.
The question as to site maintenace is a valid concern, and I'm changing how I deal with it, because even GoLive has some problems with large sites. What I've come up with is causing me to re-think whether I need to stick with GoLive (or DW), at least based upon the site maintenance features alone. I'm using Interarchy 5.1 to keep FTPDisks (mirrors, really, but that mount on your desktop similar to iDisks) of each site I maintain or handle. I point the editor to the UNmounted directory when I'm actively working on a particular site. When I'm done and am ready for the site to be updated, I simply mount the FTPDisk in Interarchy and let it synchronize the changes. For non-collaborative projects, this seems to work well. For collaborative projects, you need something like DW with it's check-out/in system.
Anyway, based on the tests so far, I may move more and more development work AND maintenance work to FreeWay during the coming year. My goal is generally to have one WYSIWYG tool plus BBEdit to do all my editing of existing sites. I don't really want to have some sites maintained in FreeWay and some in DW or GL, so that's why I'm looking carefully at the method I handle multiple site maintenance.
For those looking to try something new, I highly recommend FreeWay, especially if you have any desktop publishing experience on the Mac. It's very fluid from that standpoint. Also, the discussion list is excellent, and I'd say generally a little beyond what the DW and GL lists currently offer from the standpoint of fast, friendly, effective advice/counsel.
If you are experienced in coding, certainly you could run through the tutorial and decide in a day or so whether it offers you any missing tools. It works well with databases, especially SQL using PHP tags.
it's actually a posting sent to the excellent Freewaytalk forum this morning<uk time> and speaks for itself on what i think about Freeway and why i love it so much. as much as my mac
> In December I used the H Tags action to add H Tags to my Caravanwise
> site in order to get a better page ranking on those search engines
> that look for H tagged words. Google uses H tags as a major part of
> its page ranking BUT if the H tag is changed by CSS as is the case
> when using the action then Google assumes that you are trying to
> cheat the system and delists you.
>
> The result I've gone from a page rank of 3 for the most widely used
> search term to being completely expelled from Google. I've mended the
> problem but have no idea how long it will take to get back in.
Phil i was thinking about what has happened early this morning - which is
usually my best time for my best thinking - and was wondering how this sorry
state of affairs had come about. going back i can remember you raising the
H tag thing quite strongly a couple of months ago. at the time i didn't
take much notice of it, not intentionally anyway, as i steer well clear of
all coded matters. i selected freeway for it's creative simplicity, power
and versatility. without having to trawl along the arduous road of learning
html/css/and_the_rest. what's the point? it's all inclusive so why worry
about working on code when it's already there.
which reminded me of a book i'd often read years ago written by robert
pirsig 'zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance' hyped as one of the most
profoundly important blah blah of someone in search of themselves. well i
liked what i read. i'm not a prolific book reader but this and catch 22
would what i would take if i was stranded on a desert island.
i can't remember if H tags was ever part of prisig's 'chautauqua's' but i'm
sure they must have been in some form or other. try and avoid being too
serious about your own position.
hope everying goes well for you
best wishes
george
--
<---it's one thing to able to solve design problems...but
it's much much harder to give a personality and life to it..
yet infinitately more satisfying - and i think the new imac has it---->
Johnathan Ive
respect
[ 02-07-2002: Message edited by: skyeviz ]</p>
I think that if you want to get the work done quickly and effectively, FW is a great solution. It is Mac only which is fun and you can quickly do things like layers, rollovers, forms, edit graphics, format text and the like that can be so time consuming in DW, GL or by hand. You can really bang a site out ina fraction of the time of the other methods and with far less browser compatability trouble.
But if you want to put out extra efficient code with out spacers and nested tables, you have to be very careful and deliberate. It tends to go table crazy. However, the javascript is is real clean and quick to load, I think. GL's can be a bit of load.
Softpress is coming out with a new version of FW that is OSX native, which will be great. I plan to have both GL6 and FW 3.5.
<strong>What's with that extremely un-Aqua-like interface? I had to double-check and make sure Classic mode wasn't running when I tried out Freeway.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Classic was running. Freeway 3.5, which is due out in a few weeks, will be carbonized.
<strong>That explains why it looked so un-aqua-like, but doesn't explain why I _thought_ I verified that Classic wasn't running...</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're right, it doesn't. :-) It looks like a Classic app to me!
k
I don't have a lot of confidence in GL 6. Keepin' my fingers crossed though.
matthew
Yeah. 'Bout like Xpress.
And I DO think Xpress is pretty easy (a pain in the backside, but easier than hand cutting and pasting).
As for GoLive, I use it a lot. It crashes on big sites. But the pages are pretty trim if you don't use the grid-thang.
<strong>
As for GoLive, I use it a lot. It crashes on big sites. But the pages are pretty trim if you don't use the grid-thang.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Your right on this. But I did look at the code it makes for image rollover....the code is over half page long :eek:
(Claris had a demo that was a full version for 30 days but if you just trashed the preference file every 30 days you never had to buy it
<strong>
Whoa.
You think QuarkXpress is easy to use?
So I wasted 3 semesters in design school on it?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes you did, hahahaha. Quark is easy as hell to learn, it just happens to suck ass which kinda negates it's easiness. I taught myself to use it in less then 3 months. I'm not saying I'm a quark master but it isn't as difficult to learn as you are making it out to be, espeically 3 fricking semesters, lol