A Kevlar vest probably isn't going to stop an unimpeded 7.62x39 AK round traveling at close to 1800 fps and delivering about 1200 ft.lbs of energy into a spot the size of a ballpoint pen tip. Kevlar vests are for protection against explosion fragments and lower velocity bullets.
And to the dumbass hillbilly who barfed out that misguided logic about how maybe the poor grunt wouldn't have gotten shot if he hadn't been listening to his iPod, I don't recall the article saying he was listening to it at the time. Let's not jump to conclusions just cuz he had it in his pocket.
And am I the only one on this forum old enough to remember that HP licensed the iPod for a while from Apple?
In more optimistic news, one iPod was found to be far more useful to its owner than as a simple music jukebox.
US infantryman Kevin Garrad can now claim that the Apple device saved his life while on patrol. A series of photos posted to Flickr this week provided evidence that the soldier's fourth-generation iPod absorbed the impact of a 7.62mm round fired from an Iraqi rebel's AK-47, letting the bullet through but softening the blow just enough to stop the bullet from completely piercing the Kevlar armor underneath.
iPod takes one for the team.
Thankfully, Garrad was completely unhurt by the shot. The iPod was less fortunate and was rendered unusable; surprisingly, however, many of its parts remained intact despite the fatal blow.
The website you linked to in no way supports this statement. Basic physics and the mechanical properties of an iPod versus an IBA vest subjected to this type of impact energy strongly suggest what really stopped this bullet, the IBA NOT the iPod!
Quote:
The Small Arms Protective Insert (SAPI) is made of a boron carbide ceramic with a spectra shield backing that's an extremely hard material.
The photographic evidence fully supports that the bullet did indeed hit the iPod which had to be in the chest area with some cloth and the SAPI plate beneath (with the Kevlar vest and additional clothing providing additional cushioning of the SAPI plate) providing a stiff backing, thus the blunt rounded shape of the partially pierced iPod thin metal backing. If it were to pass into only a multi-ply Kevlar vest (sans SAPI plate) the iPod would either have shattered or would have a clear hole from the Kevlar fabric acting in effect as a trampoline against the soldiers skin (i. e. the underlying mechanical properties of Kevlar/body would have displaced by ~ an inch (or more)). Most likely with just a Kevlar vest this soldier would be seriously wounded or at worse dead, irregardless of said iPod!
Indeed without the SAPI plate this soldier would most likely not be with us today to give you AI (and Apple, Inc.) guys misguided PR value! But you all can just keep on ginning this one up, that way it's sure to make a future episode of MythBusters!
I really don't think every person that says the word faggot is afraid of being gay. Im sure some people are just ignorant. Maybe others are just using the word light heartedly. And dont tell me that you cant. Not everyone is the same and living in an Appleinsider forum doesnt really give you a wide aspect of cultures and people.
Zing! Heh. "living in an AppleInsider forum"...
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent
I seriously doubt the iPod saved this soldier's life.
All ballistic vests are typically designed to withstand 9mm rounds at up to 3,300 fps .....
I'm sorry, it's just my generation, I straight away thought of 3,300 frames per second !!! OMFG !!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin
...And am I the only one on this forum old enough to remember that HP licensed the iPod for a while from Apple?
No, I remember the debacle quite well. Ah, it wasn't *so* much of a debacle...
Psychologists have shown that gay bashers are themselves afraid that they may be gay, and that they do this to assure themselves, and others that they are not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caribou Killa
I really don't think every person that says the word faggot is afraid of being gay. Im sure some people are just ignorant. Maybe others are just using the word light heartedly. And dont tell me that you cant. Not everyone is the same and living in an Appleinsider forum doesnt really give you a wide aspect of cultures and people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney
It read like he was trying to get a date.
Regardlesss of the workings of the minds (or not) of people using such slang, in general, "gay" and "faggot" is pretty lame. It's so last century. \
Keep in mind that NOT one of you are ballistics experts, so no one should make any assumptions about anything.
Statements have been made that Apple owes him a new iPod, if that is the case then he owes Apple his life and the guy that shot him owes him a new iPod.
(I am old enough to remember the HP iPod mistake.)
(I am old enough to remember the HP iPod mistake.)
It was not a mistake. Apple didn't have very good distribution or retail presence at the time it made the deal, and it got iPod into stores that it wouldn't have been otherwise until much later. It wasn't until the time that HP cancelled the deal that Apple finally had good distribution and retail presence, so the deal wasn't needed any more.
Keep in mind that NOT one of you are ballistics experts, so no one should make any assumptions about anything.
Statements have been made that Apple owes him a new iPod, if that is the case then he owes Apple his life and the guy that shot him owes him a new iPod.
(I am old enough to remember the HP iPod mistake.)
Dimbulb, you just violated your previous statement! I didn't know Apple's warranty covered small arms fire AND in an active combat zone no less! Link?
Am I a ballistics expert? No, not in the sense that I've conducted actual ballistics tests! But even where I work (US Army ERDC) I know several people who ARE experts in blast load effects!
Am I a structural engineer? Yes!
Do I work for the US Army? Yes!
Have I been doing active research into these ballistics materials over the past 3 years? Yes! We have a causeway structure with underlying inflatable floatation tube structures that may need to be protected from small arms fire! It's called need to know. We have also used these materials (high modulus synthetic fibers) several times (4 times to be exact) as structural tendons in the aforementioned causeway structures.
Could I contact some people I know at U.S. Army Soldier Systems Center (Natick)? Yes! But having MythBusters disprove this myth would be way more fun. Note to self: Forward Flickr link/verbage/images to MythBusters with my responses in this AI thread, and wait for air date! Buster is going to get gunned down again!
Did AI make an unsubstantiated claim WRT said iPod? MOST CERTAINLY!
Are the people who run AI in any manner, way, shape, or form even remotely knowledgeable WRT personal body armor? OBVIOUSLY NOT!
I'm sorry, it's just my generation, I straight away thought of 3,300 frames per second !!! OMFG !!!
You probably would not believe the frame rates or data acquisition sampling rates for actual empirical tests! To say nothing about time steps used in numerical simulations!
Crappy arguments about ballistics and replacements aside, when I read this I thought of the old "bulletproof bibles" that soldiers carried a long long time ago... Not so much for protection as peace of mind, but they have been known to (arguably) save lives.
So, Apple should release a rugged version of the iPod with a thicker titanium backing, thicker polycarbonate front, and pad the thing inside with kevlar. :P
Crappy arguments about ballistics and replacements aside, when I read this I thought of the old "bulletproof bibles" that soldiers carried a long long time ago... Not so much for protection as peace of mind, but they have been known to (arguably) save lives.
So, Apple should release a rugged version of the iPod with a thicker titanium backing, thicker polycarbonate front, and pad the thing inside with kevlar. :P
Notice the Velcro strips (where various items are attached) AND the underlying ESAPI in the above photo (providing full coverage of the chest cavity)?
And the quote from Flickr:
Quote:
The insurgent was killed and Kevin was hit in the left chest where his IPod was in his jacket pocket.
Another quote from the Wisconsin National Guard:
Quote:
Interceptor Body Armor (IBA) is part of a complete system of personal protection equipment designed to be worn by combat forces and integrated with combat uniforms. In addition to the new Advanced Kevlar Helmets and effective ballistic goggles, all service members assigned in combat zones are provide:
· Outer Tactical Vest (OTV) – provides fragmentation and 9 mm bullet protection and can be tailored to particular mission threat by adding or removing subcomponents, including removable collar, throat protector, and groin protector.
· Enhanced Small-Arms Protective Insert (ESAPI) plates – boron carbide ceramic designed to stop, shatter and catch fragments up to and including 7.62 mm rounds with muzzle velocity of 2,750 feet per second. All U.S. service members in Iraq or Afghanistan are issued ESAPI plates, which replaced the somewhat less resistant SAPI plates in early 2005.
· Deltoid and Axillary Protectors (DAP) – an IBA component that provides additional protection from fragmentary and projectiles to the upper arm and underarm areas. This additional protection been issued to all combat zone troops since September 2005.
Body armor is continually evaluated and upgraded to ensure U.S. forces have the very best protection available. Newly-fielded IBA components include the Enhanced Side Ballistic Inserts (ESBI) system to improve protection from projectiles and fragments which strike a service member’s torso on the side, and extra protection for lower extremities. These new components are issued to service members based on specific locations and mission requirements.
And last but not least 3 videos and 2 photos from the Point Blank Body Armor website. Just below the "July 2005" banner (and this may have been with the older less protective SAPI plates). The first video is from the sniper's video and shows the fully geared soldier being "knocked down!" The 2nd and 3rd videos are MSM reports (Today and CNN, I believe).
Yet in all this Apple fanbios dreaming, I have yet to see a factual (1st person interview from the soldier in question, damaged vest, and trajectory of bullet upon impact (orthogonal or oblique angle of incidence makes a BIG difference) WRT said vest) report from ANY MSM outlet. Anyone care to provide one (or preferably several) MSM links with substantiating evidence?
Crappy arguments about ballistics and replacements aside, when I read this I thought of the old "bulletproof bibles" that soldiers carried a long long time ago... Not so much for protection as peace of mind, but they have been known to (arguably) save lives.
Peace of mind is one thing, actual physical protection, is probably just an urban legend. Mythbusters did something like this, even a 0.22 round went through a deck of cards, so whether a compact bible can do it with combat rounds is kind of shaky.
The website you linked to in no way supports this statement. Basic physics and the mechanical properties of an iPod versus an IBA vest subjected to this type of impact energy strongly suggest what really stopped this bullet, the IBA NOT the iPod!
The original article on this never said that the iPod stopped the bullet. What it said was that the iPod lowered the impact of the bullet enough for the vest to stop ot without any injury. That's a very different thing.
The original article on this never said that the iPod stopped the bullet. What it said was that the iPod lowered the impact of the bullet enough for the vest to stop ot without any injury. That's a very different thing.
Some people are too intent on ripping away at anything to fully read and comprehend the story before attacking it.
As I said in the story about the guy in Nam, whether iPod actually really did save his life or not, he will/may certainly think so, and rightly so. He is probably pretty happy to be alive, and will thank anything that may have helped.
Also, as none of us were there to do a full scientific inquiry, we are not sure whether the bullet was a direct shot, a deflected shot, the range it was fired from, whether it had struck anything else before piercing the iPod... the list of unknowns could go on and on. Depepnding on various variables, it could indeed be true that the iPod was able to slow the bullet just ennough to actually save the guy's life. Not all shots are direct, point blank shots; indeed, quite a few aren't, and I would expect a military person to be one of the first to point that out. Something called a ricochet, or a defection. (see my little story about the TV show about the kid who died in a shooting accident; the bullet bounced about 7 times before killing the kid) Reality is not a controlled laboratory.
Comments
Edwards should've responded 'light-heartedly' that while he was not gay, he was pretty sure that a night with Ann Coulter could turn him that way. .
PS: I have to say that she does scare me a bit.
As for other interesting bullets: anybody actually believe the "Magic Bullet" theory about JFK's death?
I don't remember much about it, but I think maybe the Mythbusters show did a segment on that.
It read like he was trying to get a date.
Well, there you go!
A Kevlar vest probably isn't going to stop an unimpeded 7.62x39 AK round traveling at close to 1800 fps and delivering about 1200 ft.lbs of energy into a spot the size of a ballpoint pen tip. Kevlar vests are for protection against explosion fragments and lower velocity bullets.
And to the dumbass hillbilly who barfed out that misguided logic about how maybe the poor grunt wouldn't have gotten shot if he hadn't been listening to his iPod, I don't recall the article saying he was listening to it at the time. Let's not jump to conclusions just cuz he had it in his pocket.
And am I the only one on this forum old enough to remember that HP licensed the iPod for a while from Apple?
BULLSHIT!
Interceptor Body Armor
With the SAPI plates this vest is a Type IV (NIJ) capable of stopping a 7.62mm (155 gr) round (AK-47) travelling at 2,750 fps (~ 2,600 ft-lbs)!
And that's exactly the type of vest ALL US military personnel wear over in Iraq!
General information on body armor:
Body Armor
But I tell you what, you and me at ten paces, eack with AK-47's, you with your iPod, me with my IBA, rat-a-tat-tat-tat!
iPod saves a life
In more optimistic news, one iPod was found to be far more useful to its owner than as a simple music jukebox.
US infantryman Kevin Garrad can now claim that the Apple device saved his life while on patrol. A series of photos posted to Flickr this week provided evidence that the soldier's fourth-generation iPod absorbed the impact of a 7.62mm round fired from an Iraqi rebel's AK-47, letting the bullet through but softening the blow just enough to stop the bullet from completely piercing the Kevlar armor underneath.
iPod takes one for the team.
Thankfully, Garrad was completely unhurt by the shot. The iPod was less fortunate and was rendered unusable; surprisingly, however, many of its parts remained intact despite the fatal blow.
[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]
The website you linked to in no way supports this statement. Basic physics and the mechanical properties of an iPod versus an IBA vest subjected to this type of impact energy strongly suggest what really stopped this bullet, the IBA NOT the iPod!
The Small Arms Protective Insert (SAPI) is made of a boron carbide ceramic with a spectra shield backing that's an extremely hard material.
The photographic evidence fully supports that the bullet did indeed hit the iPod which had to be in the chest area with some cloth and the SAPI plate beneath (with the Kevlar vest and additional clothing providing additional cushioning of the SAPI plate) providing a stiff backing, thus the blunt rounded shape of the partially pierced iPod thin metal backing. If it were to pass into only a multi-ply Kevlar vest (sans SAPI plate) the iPod would either have shattered or would have a clear hole from the Kevlar fabric acting in effect as a trampoline against the soldiers skin (i. e. the underlying mechanical properties of Kevlar/body would have displaced by ~ an inch (or more)). Most likely with just a Kevlar vest this soldier would be seriously wounded or at worse dead, irregardless of said iPod!
Indeed without the SAPI plate this soldier would most likely not be with us today to give you AI (and Apple, Inc.) guys misguided PR value! But you all can just keep on ginning this one up, that way it's sure to make a future episode of MythBusters!
I really don't think every person that says the word faggot is afraid of being gay. Im sure some people are just ignorant. Maybe others are just using the word light heartedly. And dont tell me that you cant. Not everyone is the same and living in an Appleinsider forum doesnt really give you a wide aspect of cultures and people.
Zing! Heh. "living in an AppleInsider forum"...
I seriously doubt the iPod saved this soldier's life.
All ballistic vests are typically designed to withstand 9mm rounds at up to 3,300 fps .....
I'm sorry, it's just my generation, I straight away thought of 3,300 frames per second !!! OMFG !!!
...And am I the only one on this forum old enough to remember that HP licensed the iPod for a while from Apple?
No, I remember the debacle quite well. Ah, it wasn't *so* much of a debacle...
MM... multiquote is very handy.
Psychologists have shown that gay bashers are themselves afraid that they may be gay, and that they do this to assure themselves, and others that they are not.
I really don't think every person that says the word faggot is afraid of being gay. Im sure some people are just ignorant. Maybe others are just using the word light heartedly. And dont tell me that you cant. Not everyone is the same and living in an Appleinsider forum doesnt really give you a wide aspect of cultures and people.
It read like he was trying to get a date.
Regardlesss of the workings of the minds (or not) of people using such slang, in general, "gay" and "faggot" is pretty lame. It's so last century.
....
...
Brilliance.
Well, there you go!
Good to see you can take the punishment in your stride
Statements have been made that Apple owes him a new iPod, if that is the case then he owes Apple his life and the guy that shot him owes him a new iPod.
(I am old enough to remember the HP iPod mistake.)
(I am old enough to remember the HP iPod mistake.)
It was not a mistake. Apple didn't have very good distribution or retail presence at the time it made the deal, and it got iPod into stores that it wouldn't have been otherwise until much later. It wasn't until the time that HP cancelled the deal that Apple finally had good distribution and retail presence, so the deal wasn't needed any more.
Keep in mind that NOT one of you are ballistics experts, so no one should make any assumptions about anything.
Statements have been made that Apple owes him a new iPod, if that is the case then he owes Apple his life and the guy that shot him owes him a new iPod.
(I am old enough to remember the HP iPod mistake.)
Dimbulb, you just violated your previous statement! I didn't know Apple's warranty covered small arms fire AND in an active combat zone no less! Link?
Am I a ballistics expert? No, not in the sense that I've conducted actual ballistics tests! But even where I work (US Army ERDC) I know several people who ARE experts in blast load effects!
Am I a structural engineer? Yes!
Do I work for the US Army? Yes!
Have I been doing active research into these ballistics materials over the past 3 years? Yes! We have a causeway structure with underlying inflatable floatation tube structures that may need to be protected from small arms fire! It's called need to know. We have also used these materials (high modulus synthetic fibers) several times (4 times to be exact) as structural tendons in the aforementioned causeway structures.
Could I contact some people I know at U.S. Army Soldier Systems Center (Natick)? Yes! But having MythBusters disprove this myth would be way more fun. Note to self: Forward Flickr link/verbage/images to MythBusters with my responses in this AI thread, and wait for air date! Buster is going to get gunned down again!
Did AI make an unsubstantiated claim WRT said iPod? MOST CERTAINLY!
Are the people who run AI in any manner, way, shape, or form even remotely knowledgeable WRT personal body armor? OBVIOUSLY NOT!
I'm sorry, it's just my generation, I straight away thought of 3,300 frames per second !!! OMFG !!!
You probably would not believe the frame rates or data acquisition sampling rates for actual empirical tests! To say nothing about time steps used in numerical simulations!
So, Apple should release a rugged version of the iPod with a thicker titanium backing, thicker polycarbonate front, and pad the thing inside with kevlar. :P
Crappy arguments about ballistics and replacements aside, when I read this I thought of the old "bulletproof bibles" that soldiers carried a long long time ago... Not so much for protection as peace of mind, but they have been known to (arguably) save lives.
So, Apple should release a rugged version of the iPod with a thicker titanium backing, thicker polycarbonate front, and pad the thing inside with kevlar. :P
Here's some more "crap" for all you Mac fanbois:
Interceptor Body Armor (IBA)
Notice the Velcro strips (where various items are attached) AND the underlying ESAPI in the above photo (providing full coverage of the chest cavity)?
And the quote from Flickr:
The insurgent was killed and Kevin was hit in the left chest where his IPod was in his jacket pocket.
Another quote from the Wisconsin National Guard:
Interceptor Body Armor (IBA) is part of a complete system of personal protection equipment designed to be worn by combat forces and integrated with combat uniforms. In addition to the new Advanced Kevlar Helmets and effective ballistic goggles, all service members assigned in combat zones are provide:
· Outer Tactical Vest (OTV) – provides fragmentation and 9 mm bullet protection and can be tailored to particular mission threat by adding or removing subcomponents, including removable collar, throat protector, and groin protector.
· Enhanced Small-Arms Protective Insert (ESAPI) plates – boron carbide ceramic designed to stop, shatter and catch fragments up to and including 7.62 mm rounds with muzzle velocity of 2,750 feet per second. All U.S. service members in Iraq or Afghanistan are issued ESAPI plates, which replaced the somewhat less resistant SAPI plates in early 2005.
· Deltoid and Axillary Protectors (DAP) – an IBA component that provides additional protection from fragmentary and projectiles to the upper arm and underarm areas. This additional protection been issued to all combat zone troops since September 2005.
Body armor is continually evaluated and upgraded to ensure U.S. forces have the very best protection available. Newly-fielded IBA components include the Enhanced Side Ballistic Inserts (ESBI) system to improve protection from projectiles and fragments which strike a service member’s torso on the side, and extra protection for lower extremities. These new components are issued to service members based on specific locations and mission requirements.
Body Armor Facts
And last but not least 3 videos and 2 photos from the Point Blank Body Armor website. Just below the "July 2005" banner (and this may have been with the older less protective SAPI plates). The first video is from the sniper's video and shows the fully geared soldier being "knocked down!" The 2nd and 3rd videos are MSM reports (Today and CNN, I believe).
Yet in all this Apple fanbios dreaming, I have yet to see a factual (1st person interview from the soldier in question, damaged vest, and trajectory of bullet upon impact (orthogonal or oblique angle of incidence makes a BIG difference) WRT said vest) report from ANY MSM outlet. Anyone care to provide one (or preferably several) MSM links with substantiating evidence?
TYVM!
Crappy arguments about ballistics and replacements aside, when I read this I thought of the old "bulletproof bibles" that soldiers carried a long long time ago... Not so much for protection as peace of mind, but they have been known to (arguably) save lives.
Peace of mind is one thing, actual physical protection, is probably just an urban legend. Mythbusters did something like this, even a 0.22 round went through a deck of cards, so whether a compact bible can do it with combat rounds is kind of shaky.
The website you linked to in no way supports this statement. Basic physics and the mechanical properties of an iPod versus an IBA vest subjected to this type of impact energy strongly suggest what really stopped this bullet, the IBA NOT the iPod!
The original article on this never said that the iPod stopped the bullet. What it said was that the iPod lowered the impact of the bullet enough for the vest to stop ot without any injury. That's a very different thing.
Regardlesss of the workings of the minds (or not) of people using such slang, in general, "gay" and "faggot" is pretty lame. It's so last century.
Last century or not, it's the context that matters.
Good to see you can take the punishment in your stride
Hmmm.
The original article on this never said that the iPod stopped the bullet. What it said was that the iPod lowered the impact of the bullet enough for the vest to stop ot without any injury. That's a very different thing.
Some people are too intent on ripping away at anything to fully read and comprehend the story before attacking it.
As I said in the story about the guy in Nam, whether iPod actually really did save his life or not, he will/may certainly think so, and rightly so. He is probably pretty happy to be alive, and will thank anything that may have helped.
Also, as none of us were there to do a full scientific inquiry, we are not sure whether the bullet was a direct shot, a deflected shot, the range it was fired from, whether it had struck anything else before piercing the iPod... the list of unknowns could go on and on. Depepnding on various variables, it could indeed be true that the iPod was able to slow the bullet just ennough to actually save the guy's life. Not all shots are direct, point blank shots; indeed, quite a few aren't, and I would expect a military person to be one of the first to point that out. Something called a ricochet, or a defection. (see my little story about the TV show about the kid who died in a shooting accident; the bullet bounced about 7 times before killing the kid) Reality is not a controlled laboratory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricochet
Some people just want to blow a story for the sake of blowing it.