Apple delays Leopard release until October

1151618202126

Comments

  • Reply 341 of 504
    aryayusharyayush Posts: 191member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Flounder


    What hype? Jobs mentioned there were additional features they weren't showing yet at last year's WWDC and since then Jobs and Apple have mentioned these secret features exactly........ 0 times to my knowledge.



    Well, anything that comes out of the mouth of Steven Paul Jobs - even once - is a hype in and of itself.
  • Reply 342 of 504
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mbaynham View Post


    yeh its more like 20million i think, not sure though



    And how many of those 20 million have the cheapest phone they can get and never use any of the features? Most of the people I know have a cellphone and most don't use it for anything more than making a call, no data usage at all.



    I know that Apple is doing its best to get into this market, but I also think that there are far more people out there who want the phone. The biggest group of people I know who want the iPhone is high schoolers. I'll buy one simply because I loath using my POS Nokia and the T-Mobile service.
  • Reply 343 of 504
    mbaynhammbaynham Posts: 534member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Brian Green View Post


    And how many of those 20 million have the cheapest phone they can get and never use any of the features? Most of the people I know have a cellphone and most don't use it for anything more than making a call, no data usage at all.



    I know that Apple is doing its best to get into this market, but I also think that there are far more people out there who want the phone. The biggest group of people I know who want the iPhone is high schoolers. I'll buy one simply because I loath using my POS Nokia and the T-Mobile service.



    i was talking about the mac os x side of things. sorry, should have been more clear
  • Reply 344 of 504
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Brian Green View Post


    And how many of those 20 million have the cheapest phone they can get and never use any of the features? Most of the people I know have a cellphone and most don't use it for anything more than making a call, no data usage at all.



    I know that Apple is doing its best to get into this market, but I also think that there are far more people out there who want the phone. The biggest group of people I know who want the iPhone is high schoolers. I'll buy one simply because I loath using my POS Nokia and the T-Mobile service.



    Last year 1 billion cell phones were sold world wide.

    Of that 2% or 20 million were some type of smartphone.

    Apple's goal is to capture 1% of the market or 10 million phones.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Brian Green View Post


    Most of the people I know have a cellphone and most don't use it for anything more than making a call, no data usage at all.



    What do you think the reason for this is?

    Because people don't want to or because they can't figure out how to?

    The market for a smartphone is actually much larger than most people think.

    The reality is that most smartphones were design by geeks for geeks.

    The iPhone is a smartphone my grandmother could use.
  • Reply 345 of 504
    cosmonutcosmonut Posts: 4,872member
    It sounds to me like Apple is having an internal corporate traffic jam of sorts. It appears that so much time and effort has gone into Leopard and iPhone that Leopard and AppleTV have ended up being delayed, iLife and iWork '07 may be passed over (at least in title), Mac minis have gone FORGOTTEN in the halls of Cupertino, and most of Apple's software designers haven't seen their own desks in several months because they've been hanging out with other divisions.



    Steve Jobs at the end of each keynote usually thanks his employees and their families for their sacrifices to get stuff out, but I'm thinking he's going to need to foot the bill for an iPhone for each of them after this is all said and done. It sounds like they're working their asses off on Infinite Loop. Hell, at this point I wouldn't be surprised if the janitors are helping get the iPhone out.
  • Reply 346 of 504
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,341member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by igorsova View Post


    Bitching is when promised and confirmed dates suddenly pushed back from spring to autumn, this is what I call bitching from top level of Apple. And one more time I want to point out that Apple didn?t say that Leopard will be released in October. ?Anticipating launching the software in October? can also mean that it will be released in February 08.



    Can also mean a delivery timeframe in September as well. It goes both ways. I just think you like to complain.
  • Reply 347 of 504
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Johnny Mozzarella View Post


    The iPhone is a smartphone my grandmother could use.



    I honestly hope the iPhone launches successfully and there are no major issues. I'll be buying one so we'll see when the time comes. I'll be the only one in my immediate family that will have one, but when the second gen iPhone comes out I'll upgrade and hand down the first gen to a relative so I help my family acquire the tech. I do the same with all of my Macs.



    And here's a question that is not for this thread but doesn't deserve a new thread started for it. If I buy a new Mac Pro on the 16th and down the road there are better GPUs in them, how do I go about getting one and swapping it out? Does Apple offer them on their website? If so, I haven't seen them.



    Now back to thread specific conversation. Here's a question for those who keep stats on Apple. Is Leopard the longest production of an OS by Apple from the time the previous cat was released, in this case Tiger, until the new cat is released? I just want to know if Leopard is actually taking longer than the prior cats to put together, and if so, how much longer? This may be an indicator of how bug-free Leopard will be.
  • Reply 348 of 504
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Brian Green View Post


    Here's a question for those who keep stats on Apple. Is Leopard the longest production of an OS by Apple from the time the previous cat was released, in this case Tiger, until the new cat is released? I just want to know if Leopard is actually taking longer than the prior cats to put together, and if so, how much longer? This may be an indicator of how bug-free Leopard will be.



    Yes, but this is no indicator that it will have less bugs. In fact, as the complexity of OS X grows you can expect longer delays between versions--even Apple made this statement back in OS X's early days--and expect more bugs.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X#Versions



    10.0 ? March 2001 (6 months)

    10.1 ? September 2001 (11 months)

    10.2 ? August 2002 (14 months)

    10.3 ? October 2003 (18 months)

    10.4 ? April 2005 (30 months, assuming an October 2007 release)
  • Reply 349 of 504
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,341member
    Brian



    If Apple can deliver a relatively bug free Leopard in October color me amazed. That feat will certainly require more work than the effort to get Tiger out of the door (which was admittedly rocky)



    There's a disconnect between Mac users and Apple. OS X is more complex than any OS we Mac users have had access to. Prior to OS X we never had such huge changes and that's why Copeland died. It couldn't be changed as easily to encompass new modern features while preserving legacy support.



    Now we have OS X which is a toddler at 6yrs old. If you look at the difference between 10.3 and 10.5 it's mind boggling what Apple has done.



    Moved to Intel processors- Painless

    Moved to 64-bit full software stacks- Maybe not so painless



    The Top Secret features are coming and they'll be flashy to entice the "I want my OS to Entertain me" crowd but the stuff that is going to make a difference to those who need productivity will be further maturation of the OS.



    Sync services that work

    Systemwide Calendar data

    Webkit becoming fully modern (AJAX and CSS3)

    Quicktime overhauled

    Applescript- don't call it a comeback



    Like the iPhone Apple has to deliver a working OS X Leopard because people like you who want to use their expensive Mac to get their work done demand that the features work as described.



    Apple has offered no SLA to consumers. They said spring 2007 for their shipdate but no contracts were signed.



    I want them to launch both products "correctly" and I do think that giving themselves 4 more months will allow them to do that. And trust...we will be happy.
  • Reply 350 of 504
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    Brian



    If Apple can deliver a relatively bug free Leopard in October color me amazed. That feat will certainly require more work than the effort to get Tiger out of the door (which was admittedly rocky)



    There's a disconnect between Mac users and Apple. OS X is more complex than any OS we Mac users have had access to. Prior to OS X we never had such huge changes and that's why Copeland died. It couldn't be changed as easily to encompass new modern features while preserving legacy support.



    Now we have OS X which is a toddler at 6yrs old. If you look at the difference between 10.3 and 10.5 it's mind boggling what Apple has done.



    Moved to Intel processors- Painless

    Moved to 64-bit full software stacks- Maybe not so painless



    The Top Secret features are coming and they'll be flashy to entice the "I want my OS to Entertain me" crowd but the stuff that is going to make a difference to those who need productivity will be further maturation of the OS.



    Sync services that work

    Systemwide Calendar data

    Webkit becoming fully modern (AJAX and CSS3)

    Quicktime overhauled

    Applescript- don't call it a comeback



    Like the iPhone Apple has to deliver a working OS X Leopard because people like you who want to use their expensive Mac to get their work done demand that the features work as described.



    Apple has offered no SLA to consumers. They said spring 2007 for their shipdate but no contracts were signed.



    I want them to launch both products "correctly" and I do think that giving themselves 4 more months will allow them to do that. And trust...we will be happy.



    All the work on Leopard has me wondering how many updates it'll have. Sometimes Apple adds new features during updates. Sometimes the updates are all stuff behind the scenes stomping out bugs. I know that so many of us want Finder completely rewritten and to hopefully not have the same problems it has now, nor a bunch of new ones.



    I know they'll be working on Leopard for a long time, and they might even take a breather and not even worry about the next release of OS X for a year or so. If they keep refining Leopard well into 2008 and possibly well into 2009, we'll see that the updates might take a long time to download but will be more substantive than we've seen them be in the past.



    I look forward to the iPhone and I look forward to Leopard. I'll be dropping plastic on them both as soon as I can get my hands on them. Now if only I could get Apple to drop a Blu-Ray recorder into the Mac Pro.



    Is the consensus here that Apple will reveal these secret features at WWDC? I'll have to find a countdown widget just for it.
  • Reply 351 of 504
    Quote:

    The iPhone is a smartphone my grandmother could use.



    Well, at least he gets it.



    And because of that, like the iPod, it will go on to sell many more per quarter than Apple will sell Macs. It may, just may drag the Mac along it's coat trails...



    And Hmurchison too. Good post. It's perhaps the underlying technologies which augur well for future Mac applications and even OS updates. They're building an incredible platform for the future.



    This is Apple's most complex OS to date. They're doing a great job when you think the 'mighty' Redmond machine with all it's multi-billion RND took several years over Vista and it arrived like a train wreck.



    Lemon Bon Bon.
  • Reply 352 of 504
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Haggar View Post


    So you think that if Vista had only been delayed by 3 months, Apple and all the Microsoft bashers would have stayed silent? Guess again. They would have bashed Microsoft anyway even if Vista was just 1 day late.



    Yes, you are right. But three years was down right laughable! It was so late that it actually became a punch line... So, again, as every one has said, it's 3 months not 3 years.
  • Reply 353 of 504
    cosmonutcosmonut Posts: 4,872member
    I just hope Apple doesn't leave us with the same impression Vista did:



    "That's it?"



    I've got to be honest. It seems like Panther (10.3) was a much more significant update for me than Tiger (10.4) was. Sure, I use Spotlight and Dashboard every once and a while, but Safari RSS was the biggest deal for me...and that doesn't seem like it'd need an OS update. Panther, on the other hand brought so much to the table that I've found so useful.



    Mac OS X just seems to be slowing down a lot. As Apple makes the OS even better over time, there's less big stuff to put into it.



    With Leopard, Spaces and Time Machine might be pretty useful, but I'm hoping these "top secret" features bring more to the table. Otherwise I might be inclined to let out a hearty yawn.
  • Reply 354 of 504
    I've lost three hard drives in my OS X years and each one has been painful. I'll upgrade to Leopard just for Time Machine. If it happens again I'll be able to restore everything just the way it was. Backup is a great start for that but didn't return everything to the way it was.



    I think Steve will have a hard sell on his hands when he demos Leopard. We've already seen the features that are public so if the ones that are secret really aren't impressive, he's going to look out to a crowd and it'll be silent rather than the applause he's used to. I just have a feeling that it's gonna be mostly under-the-hood stuff (which is great, but not something earth-shattering. \
  • Reply 355 of 504
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    Wow Cosmonut that's crazy--I use Spotlight and Dashboard every 5 minutes. They're the biggest updates for me since maybe 10.2. I used RSS for a minute once and decided it didn't have a purpose for me. Funny how different people use such different parts of OS X.



    Lemmon Bon Bon good to see you again, good observations. I am hoping AAPL tanks. I'm STILL kicking myself for not buying a few thousand of AAPL when it was at 30 last summer. If it tanks even in to the upper 70s I'll be reaching for that Scottrade that's been on stand-by since, well, last year. Anyone think it'll get hurt that much? I guess we'll see.



    In the meantime, 10.4 works for me. I'm happily waiting to buy. I'm so getting it the day it comes out! I hope I get a shirt too.
  • Reply 356 of 504
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,341member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CosmoNut View Post


    Mac OS X just seems to be slowing down a lot. As Apple makes the OS even better over time, there's less big stuff to put into it.



    With Leopard, Spaces and Time Machine might be pretty useful, but I'm hoping these "top secret" features bring more to the table. Otherwise I might be inclined to let out a hearty yawn.



    Other than "Fix the Fcking Finder" I haven't heard many people articulate what exactly they want from an OS. It seems there is this large contingent of people who compute for Entertainment. They are more concerned with flash and sizzle. They care more about chatting programs and 3D warp UI features (Beryl anyone?). There's nothing wrong with that.



    However the flipside is many of us have embedded the computer into more of our daily life for management. It needs to handle our scheduling and task list with ease. It needs to offer efficient communication and display of information. The requirements of these two groups are vastly different. Note that Apple plays up the "superimpose yourself in Tahiti in iChat Theatre" angle to wow the first group but also satiates the second group by showing the collaborative features of iChat Theatre.



    So the real question to ask Mac users is "what type computing user are you? Are you in it now for the Entertainment or the Productivity?" That will determine the efficacy of Leopard thusfar for your needs. Apple is HEAVY into the productivity right now and a bit light on the Entertainment with Leopard.







    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Brian Green View Post


    I've lost three hard drives in my OS X years and each one has been painful. I'll upgrade to Leopard just for Time Machine. If it happens again I'll be able to restore everything just the way it was. Backup is a great start for that but didn't return everything to the way it was.



    I think Steve will have a hard sell on his hands when he demos Leopard. We've already seen the features that are public so if the ones that are secret really aren't impressive, he's going to look out to a crowd and it'll be silent rather than the applause he's used to. I just have a feeling that it's gonna be mostly under-the-hood stuff (which is great, but not something earth-shattering. \



    It only takes losing valuable data once before you respect the benefits of an easy backup program. The apathy at which some people respond to Time Machine is amazing. Hell ..it's your data. I don't care if you keep it or lose it really. I know "my" data is going to be protected.



    At this time I have my doubts that there are features that can be considered Earth Shattering. I think Core Animation will improve the fluidity of applications but that's not ES to me. Leopard is going to be fluid and that's a nice feature to me. Tiger isn't bad but there still is lag when you do some things. Leopard should be smooth as silk when rendering many windows.
  • Reply 357 of 504
    skatmanskatman Posts: 609member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Nice in-depth explanation of Leopard's upcoming features. I must say that most of it well beyond my comprehension and I can't but wonder if you are privy to stuff that should be protected by an NDA.



    All of the stuff mentioned is very generic and kind of old news. Also a lot of the stuff is not very hard to implement (especially with a bunch of coding monkeys).

    I think Apple may have been a bit too aggressive on the initial timeline.



    Alexei
  • Reply 358 of 504
    I counted last night after I saw the announcement. There were 17 or 18 jobs related to the iPhone on Apple's site. That's a lot of man power that they don't have. And I'm sure that if they could find quality people, they would have, and it sucks for us that the kind of people who are smart enough to either build an operating system for a computer or (at this late of a stage) stabilize a phone OS.



    Brooke's Law, which says that "Adding people to a late project make it even later", is also fully in effect now here.



    On a more interesting note, since iPhone OS = Leopard Lite...



    iPhone -> Robson -> Instant-On Mac



    There are to many parallels in the iPhone OS and Leopard for Leopard not to benefit from iPhone development. Why did they take people from Leopard? Because they already knew about the iPhone OS.
  • Reply 359 of 504
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,341member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by skatman View Post


    All of the stuff mentioned is very generic and kind of old news. Also a lot of the stuff is not very hard to implement (especially with a bunch of coding monkeys).

    I think Apple may have been a bit too aggressive on the initial timeline.



    Alexei



    Alexei I agree. Trying to launch two major projects so close was foolish. Apple learned something here that is going to be very valuable.



    I'm willing to bet money that the morale within OS X engineering teams just skyrocked. Being behind generates a lot of stress. Now they can take a breather and fix the issues knowing the "June ship date" Guillotine isn't going to chop their heads off.



    I can't say that I'm not surprised about the petulant behavior of some "fans". There are many people who love to use such events to become the persecutor. They got their justification to launch invective at Apple. Pretty sad and pathetic.



    I hope the Apple Engineers know that their efforts are appreciated. "Some" of us know that Leopard is a phenomenal update, and phenomenons take time.
  • Reply 360 of 504
    "So the real question to ask Mac users is "what type computing user are you? Are you in it now for the Entertainment or the Productivity?" That will determine the efficacy of Leopard thusfar for your needs. Apple is HEAVY into the productivity right now and a bit light on the Entertainment with Leopard. "



    I'll bite. Tiger has partial support for metadata in the file system. Spotlight can index embedded metadata but it can't create it. The only option is Spotlight comments which are stored in the index, not in the file. In other words, the data is not portable. Adding Spotlight comments is a very tedious affair. I want Apple to really make metadata a part of the system and give us ways to easily create custom data, embedded in the file which is searchable via Spotlight.



    Spotlight has a lot of untapped potential.
Sign In or Register to comment.