People do buy American vehicles consistently. Just not American compacts, which is an area of the market where American car companies suck, and also one that is growing in popularity, vastly, in America. Back in the 90's when fuel prices where low and large vehicle were posh, Ford, GM, and Chrysler were doing great.
1990 was exactly when Japanese colonized the large car market with the 1992+ large Camry, the US only Avalon (that killed Taurus, Crown Vic, Caprice), LS400, Maxima (that essentially wiped out Taurus SHO and Lumina Z34 series).
US makers poured all of their vehicles into rental and corporate fleets to prop up their market share, but loosing money. You see the consequence of that right now.
Quote:
For as long as I can remember the blue collar auto worker in one way or another has been blamed for the American auto industries woes, but the reasons I have not bought an American car are styling, drive feel and low grade materials all of which seem to relate to errors on the management side. Hell look at the deal GM made with Fiat.
Why would you blame the blue color worker? It's the management that is at fault.
Cars should be built designed and built be engineers, not MBAs.
People do buy American vehicles consistently. Just not American compacts, which is an area of the market where American car companies suck, and also one that is growing in popularity, vastly, in America. Back in the 90's when fuel prices where low and large vehicle were posh, Ford, GM, and Chrysler were doing great.
That's because of SUVs. The Japenese makers didn't embrace the SUV craze fast enough. And it's not just compacts...it's midsize and fullsize sedans as well, and SUVs now.
I think right now half the problem is the fact the said companies are "American" - not a desirable thing in the global market OR the local market.
Everyone's on about Asian everything. Everything good is Asian influenced (and everyone's going nuts over it), naturally the cars seem more aspiring.
That is an interesting side point, but I really doubt it's the central issue...or "half of it" as you put. It's just a thought you have...there's not evidence whatsoever of it being true. The reasons the American companies aren't doing well are:
That's because of SUVs. The Japenese makers didn't embrace the SUV craze fast enough. And it's not just compacts...it's midsize and fullsize sedans as well, and SUVs now.
I'm not so sure. If large vehicles were in again, I think you'd see more success for US manufacturers even in the current market. Alternatively, if the prices for US compact and mid-size sedans were lower -- a feat totally possible if these models could be built from plants under the same kind of business arrangements as those used by non-American manufacturers -- I think you'd also see more success for US manufacturers. We go on and on about model appeal, but I'd argue that more than half of the market is less interested in appeal, and more interested in getting a car that is functional. For these people, cost can be the deal maker.
For the record, I'm not defending the companies as they are now. They need to fix their union problems as well as their internal processes. However, Ford and GM aren't doomed, and there's really nothing that has lead me to believe that they aren't capable of building quality automobiles. It's just going to take a major shake up for things to start working out better for them.
I'm not so sure. If large vehicles were in again, I think you'd see more success for US manufacturers even in the current market. Alternatively, if the prices for US compact and mid-size sedans were lower -- a feat totally possible if these models could be built from plants under the same kind of business arrangements as those used by non-American manufacturers -- I think you'd also see more success for US manufacturers. We go on and on about model appeal, but I'd argue that more than half of the market is less interested in appeal, and more interested in getting a car that is functional. For these people, cost can be the deal maker.
For the record, I'm not defending the companies as they are now. They need to fix their union problems as well as their internal processes. However, Ford and GM aren't doomed, and there's really nothing that has lead me to believe that they aren't capable of building quality automobiles. It's just going to take a major shake up for things to start working out better for them.
I see your point but I disagree as to bigger cars helping the US companies. The japanese have caught up in this area. Secondly, it's not the production costs that are killing the midsize and full size prices and therefore sales...it's the stupid pricing scheme:
Example: In 2000, my Dad drove by this Lincoln dealership every day on his way wherever. They had loaded Lincoln Navigators with a sticker of $65,000. One day he noticed they had these vehicles advertised for 15,000 dollars off sticker! . That means the markup was not what it said on invoice...no, no. The dealer was going to make at least what...$2,000? No way a dealer is going to make less than that. No effing way. Also, you know the manufacturers was making at LEAST 10%, or about $5,000. So that $65,000 Lincoln really cost $43,000 to make...at most.
Therein lies the problem. Certainly not every vehicle has a markup like that, but the principle is relatively sound. The dealers are making much more money than the invoice and holdback. The "invoice" is total bullshit and anyone who knows the business knows that full well. I also knew a fellow musician who's brother in law owned dealerships in the early 80s. He said the manufacturers..at the time...were making at least $10,000 per vehicle on a $20,000 car. Then you had the dealer profit on top of that.
The point is that the real price of that Navigator (since you talked about large vehicles) should be $49,999 to begin with. $4000 for the manufacturer and $3000 for the dealer...or whatever. And they could do that too, if they just had a price for the car and went from there. No rebates and 20% discounts and holdback and all that shit. Just sell the goddamned car.
Right now you also have a system where everyone is lying to everyone. My Dad was in between jobs recently and ended up selling Hondas for a few months. He said that the dealer is lying to the salesman, the salesman is lying to customer, and the customer never wants to buy a car and is just looking, so he's lying too. The whole system is fucked. It's allowed the Japanese companies to have higher prices AND quality. Go figure.
Comments
People do buy American vehicles consistently. Just not American compacts, which is an area of the market where American car companies suck, and also one that is growing in popularity, vastly, in America. Back in the 90's when fuel prices where low and large vehicle were posh, Ford, GM, and Chrysler were doing great.
1990 was exactly when Japanese colonized the large car market with the 1992+ large Camry, the US only Avalon (that killed Taurus, Crown Vic, Caprice), LS400, Maxima (that essentially wiped out Taurus SHO and Lumina Z34 series).
US makers poured all of their vehicles into rental and corporate fleets to prop up their market share, but loosing money. You see the consequence of that right now.
For as long as I can remember the blue collar auto worker in one way or another has been blamed for the American auto industries woes, but the reasons I have not bought an American car are styling, drive feel and low grade materials all of which seem to relate to errors on the management side. Hell look at the deal GM made with Fiat.
Why would you blame the blue color worker? It's the management that is at fault.
Cars should be built designed and built be engineers, not MBAs.
Everyone's on about Asian everything. Everything good is Asian influenced (and everyone's going nuts over it), naturally the cars seem more aspiring.
People do buy American vehicles consistently. Just not American compacts, which is an area of the market where American car companies suck, and also one that is growing in popularity, vastly, in America. Back in the 90's when fuel prices where low and large vehicle were posh, Ford, GM, and Chrysler were doing great.
That's because of SUVs. The Japenese makers didn't embrace the SUV craze fast enough. And it's not just compacts...it's midsize and fullsize sedans as well, and SUVs now.
I think right now half the problem is the fact the said companies are "American" - not a desirable thing in the global market OR the local market.
Everyone's on about Asian everything. Everything good is Asian influenced (and everyone's going nuts over it), naturally the cars seem more aspiring.
That is an interesting side point, but I really doubt it's the central issue...or "half of it" as you put. It's just a thought you have...there's not evidence whatsoever of it being true. The reasons the American companies aren't doing well are:
Labor costs
Quality and reliability
Product offerings
Price schemes, rebates, financing, etc.
That's because of SUVs. The Japenese makers didn't embrace the SUV craze fast enough. And it's not just compacts...it's midsize and fullsize sedans as well, and SUVs now.
I'm not so sure. If large vehicles were in again, I think you'd see more success for US manufacturers even in the current market. Alternatively, if the prices for US compact and mid-size sedans were lower -- a feat totally possible if these models could be built from plants under the same kind of business arrangements as those used by non-American manufacturers -- I think you'd also see more success for US manufacturers. We go on and on about model appeal, but I'd argue that more than half of the market is less interested in appeal, and more interested in getting a car that is functional. For these people, cost can be the deal maker.
For the record, I'm not defending the companies as they are now. They need to fix their union problems as well as their internal processes. However, Ford and GM aren't doomed, and there's really nothing that has lead me to believe that they aren't capable of building quality automobiles. It's just going to take a major shake up for things to start working out better for them.
I'm not so sure. If large vehicles were in again, I think you'd see more success for US manufacturers even in the current market. Alternatively, if the prices for US compact and mid-size sedans were lower -- a feat totally possible if these models could be built from plants under the same kind of business arrangements as those used by non-American manufacturers -- I think you'd also see more success for US manufacturers. We go on and on about model appeal, but I'd argue that more than half of the market is less interested in appeal, and more interested in getting a car that is functional. For these people, cost can be the deal maker.
For the record, I'm not defending the companies as they are now. They need to fix their union problems as well as their internal processes. However, Ford and GM aren't doomed, and there's really nothing that has lead me to believe that they aren't capable of building quality automobiles. It's just going to take a major shake up for things to start working out better for them.
I see your point but I disagree as to bigger cars helping the US companies. The japanese have caught up in this area. Secondly, it's not the production costs that are killing the midsize and full size prices and therefore sales...it's the stupid pricing scheme:
Example: In 2000, my Dad drove by this Lincoln dealership every day on his way wherever. They had loaded Lincoln Navigators with a sticker of $65,000. One day he noticed they had these vehicles advertised for 15,000 dollars off sticker! . That means the markup was not what it said on invoice...no, no. The dealer was going to make at least what...$2,000? No way a dealer is going to make less than that. No effing way. Also, you know the manufacturers was making at LEAST 10%, or about $5,000. So that $65,000 Lincoln really cost $43,000 to make...at most.
Therein lies the problem. Certainly not every vehicle has a markup like that, but the principle is relatively sound. The dealers are making much more money than the invoice and holdback. The "invoice" is total bullshit and anyone who knows the business knows that full well. I also knew a fellow musician who's brother in law owned dealerships in the early 80s. He said the manufacturers..at the time...were making at least $10,000 per vehicle on a $20,000 car. Then you had the dealer profit on top of that.
The point is that the real price of that Navigator (since you talked about large vehicles) should be $49,999 to begin with. $4000 for the manufacturer and $3000 for the dealer...or whatever. And they could do that too, if they just had a price for the car and went from there. No rebates and 20% discounts and holdback and all that shit. Just sell the goddamned car.
Right now you also have a system where everyone is lying to everyone. My Dad was in between jobs recently and ended up selling Hondas for a few months. He said that the dealer is lying to the salesman, the salesman is lying to customer, and the customer never wants to buy a car and is just looking, so he's lying too. The whole system is fucked. It's allowed the Japanese companies to have higher prices AND quality. Go figure.