I think that some patience might be in order.... No one has come out with much of anything multitouch yet. All there is now is a bunch of claims and prototypes (yes, yes, I know that some LG-Prada stuff is out there).
Multitouch technology has been around since about the mid-90's. And as a concept, probably the late 80's. However, no one has come up with a compelling application for it. Most of the products have been very niche (like the Lemur).
Even with the iPhone, multitouch is not a centerpiece. I can see it being useful for the onscreen keyboard and some control gestures (like keyboard shortcuts, but with gestures), but not much else.
Though personally, I'm looking forward to playing with some control surface ideas when I get an iPhone.
What's wrong with sticking 2 fingers on your track pad and moving them up and down?
Just like what's wrong with sticking two fingers and clicking. Its more of a 'hack' (that's neither intuitive nor known by anyone unless you read the fine print somewhere) then a feature. Apple's insistence on its single-button philisophy is one thing, but then doing right-click but doing everything to avoid actually having two buttons (stupid mighty mouse design, single-button laptops), it seems they're just really trying to find ways not to include a second button, so people won't say they were wrong all these years.
Here's what irks me. Bill has been talking about this table for a long time. Maybe he should fix Windows first. I'm not even talking about the big stuff. I'm talking about the little things that make it hard to use. Explorer's interface is brutal. Try to explain to your grandma why the New Folder link is only there sometimes. It might be intuitive to you and me - but it's not to everyone else.
Hey, maybe we can also yell at Apple that, before it continues wasting its time with iPods and iPhones, they could fix freakin' OS X first (esp. the buggy finder)!
Just like what's wrong with sticking two fingers and clicking. Its more of a 'hack' (that's neither intuitive nor known by anyone unless you read the fine print somewhere) then a feature. Apple's insistence on its single-button philisophy is one thing, but then doing right-click but doing everything to avoid actually having two buttons (stupid mighty mouse design, single-button laptops), it seems they're just really trying to find ways not to include a second button, so people won't say they were wrong all these years.
I find the 2 fingers on the track pad & click a single button easier than clicking the 2nd trackpad button. 2 finger scrolling is also great.
When i first saw the video, i thought it want that bad. They stole it all from Jeff Han but at least there would be somthing on the market. Then i looked closer and i began to see the truth to what surface is.
The main thing is that i would not call surface a multitouch display. It is a camera input display capable of sensing multiple objects. It uses 5 cameras to tell it where and object it, this is then sent back to the sceen which input the data onto the screen. The main problem with this display is that it is really inaccurate. You can even see this in the video. What exactly are they hiding by using huge brush sizes? They are hidding the fact the the drawing is almost and inch off from the persons hand at some points. The drawing is also lags behind the persons hand so there is a slight delay. Just think of how huge this problem will be for typing. There will be mistypes everywhere and it will take 2 seconds for the letter you hit to show up.
It also uses a projector. These are not as accurate as most screens and many have problems displaying in bright areas. MAny projectors also have bad colors. Just think about having it at a restaurant. All the food displayed on it will look off colored. Also, what if you are at a cafe that has one of these sitting in the sun. Good luck trying to read it, especially with the glare of the glass.
As for the objects placed on the table, you have to stick a bar code like object to the back of them for surface to be able to reconize them correctly.
There are many more things that it lacks but we need more information about it.
Multitouch technology has been around since about the mid-90's. And as a concept, probably the late 80's. However, no one has come up with a compelling application for it. Most of the products have been very niche ......
That's what I really meant to say.... you said it much better!
Just like what's wrong with sticking two fingers and clicking. Its more of a 'hack' (that's neither intuitive nor known by anyone unless you read the fine print somewhere) then a feature. Apple's insistence on its single-button philisophy is one thing, but then doing right-click but doing everything to avoid actually having two buttons (stupid mighty mouse design, single-button laptops), it seems they're just really trying to find ways not to include a second button, so people won't say they were wrong all these years.
I disagree. Since two finger mouse gestures arrived I can use either hand to comfortably work the mouse and execute a 'right' or 'left' click. Also, scrolling through webpages couldn't be easier. No need to move the mouse to the scroll bar and continuously depress the mouse button to scroll. In fact, now that I think of it, I am using my left hand so often now that my right hand no longer gets sore from excessive use*.
I haven't watched any of Jeff Han's recent demos (only the original one where he was moving light around a screen, which is pretty abstract). But like I said, there are devices which have predated Jeff Han, so people have been working on this for some time without any mass-market appeal.
I'm not saying it can't happen, just saying that it's still quite a niche technology. The Lemur is a great solution in the music production/performance space, but that's still a niche.
My MAJOR concern about the Microsoft Surface touch tabletop is that many hands in public places are going to be touching the device - many hands carry many germs. As a healthcare provider, we teach others to "wash your hands" time and again because you never know who last touched that door nob or table top? Unlike the iPhone which is primarily for one user, I see trouble brewing for the Surface especially when the world has another outbreak of whatever disease is prevelent at the time and the public will be cautioned to not meet in public places until said outbreak is under control.
As for the Foleo - great, that'll fit in my pocket nicely! \
And the slot machine arms don't transfer the same volume of germs? I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that these tables don't really increase "germ interchange" all that much.
And the slot machine arms don't transfer the same volume of germs? I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that these tables don't really increase "germ interchange" all that much.
Since we are being silly, they could emit a UV light when they don't detect human or pet activity in the area.
The concept and idea is pretty cool. It looks fairly cluttered and seems impractical now. I doubt these will make it to your local restaurant; a $10,000 table is a grossly large investment.
They say that they can get them down to consumer pricing in 3-5 years. The first ones are going to Harrah's, Sheraton and the like, those two are named partners on the Microsoft Surface site.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
$10K is reasonable given its a finished package that contains a projector, computer and display surface + software of some kind.
You can build one for cheaper but without software and with lower fit and finish.
Right now, it's just a matter of whether there will be a killer app. It's probably going to be a different killer app for businesses vs. consumer use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louzer
Just like what's wrong with sticking two fingers and clicking. Its more of a 'hack' (that's neither intuitive nor known by anyone unless you read the fine print somewhere) then a feature. Apple's insistence on its single-button philisophy is one thing, but then doing right-click but doing everything to avoid actually having two buttons (stupid mighty mouse design, single-button laptops), it seems they're just really trying to find ways not to include a second button, so people won't say they were wrong all these years.
Two buttons? I find it hard to live without three. Most PC notebooks are well behind the game in that respect. We might as well carry it to an extreme and ask why our optical mice don't have 104 keyboards on them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Gala
My MAJOR concern about the Microsoft Surface touch tabletop is that many hands in public places are going to be touching the device - many hands carry many germs. As a healthcare provider, we teach others to "wash your hands" time and again because you never know who last touched that door nob or table top?
A simple flat surface should be easy to clean. People are too germ-o-phobic. There are 10x as many "germ" organisms in a human as there are human cells in the same body. The world is starting to see some "blowback" from being too germicidal, antiviral & antibacterial where the buggers evolve such that the techniques and drugs don't work anymore.
My MAJOR concern about the Microsoft Surface touch tabletop is that many hands in public places are going to be touching the device - many hands carry many germs. As a healthcare provider, we teach others to "wash your hands" time and again because you never know who last touched that door nob or table top? Unlike the iPhone which is primarily for one user, I see trouble brewing for the Surface especially when the world has another outbreak of whatever disease is prevelent at the time and the public will be cautioned to not meet in public places until said outbreak is under control.
As for the Foleo - great, that'll fit in my pocket nicely! \
GG
then you must be concerned about shopping cart handles, elevator buttons, toilet doors, etc. etc. etc. never mind shaking hands with people! your position is somehow not very realistic.
As I watched the promo video here,, I kept thinking "Are they joking?"
So, if we follow along: smart phones give you email, docs and the internet in a tiny package, and free you from your laptop! But: it's so tiny its hard to use! So: you need a.... uh..... laptop!
But, see, it's a somewhat smaller and cheaper laptop! And does less! So it's less confusing!
One of the tag lines is "make presentations without dragging out your laptop." I can see that: "Hmmm, I have my laptop there in my bag, but hey! My Foleo is right here..... strapped to my chest, I guess.... so no dragging for me!"
Actually, this is a useful test of my oft stated theory that there is no such thing as a useful form factor between "fits in your pocket" and "subnotebook". Every time anyone tries to split that difference it either falls just short of being a subnotebook (in which case just get that) or adds deal breaking bulk to what is not much more than a PDA/phone.
I'm a skeptic on multitouch on large screens. I don't see much advantage to it beyond enhanced powerpoint presentations. Even the demo shown on Mossberg's website leaves me puzzled. After decades of tossing our photos willy-nilly in a box and rummaging through them with our hands, we finally have some decent photo filing software and Steve Ballmer thinks the next big thing is to toss your digital photos willy-nilly in a virtual box and rummage through them virtually with your hands? It's pretty impressive to watch, but I have 4000 photos in iPhoto and I, for the life of me, can't imagine how I can organize and search through them by 'virtual rummaging' with multi-touch. And if you say, well for sure the device will allow more conventional sorting methods, then I say so what's the point of multi-touch beyond being an expensive toy for showing off?
The MS Surface is a nice conversation piece- the coffee table book IS the coffee table. But it won't replace the monitor and keyboard and pointer combo. Nothing will replace the keyboard in the foreseeable future, not multi-touch, not handwriting recognition, not dictation because with a small investment in time and effort to hone your typing skills, there is no faster way to input text into a computer. And you can talk and listen while you're typing.
At $5k-$10K each, these tables are not meant for consumers. They are meant to replace kiosks or serve as interactive displays at stores, etc. But yes, I CAN see someone storing (or streaming) their iPhoto collection on one of these tables at some point when the cost comes down. We do it with Apple TV and picture frames now, don't we, so why not? Pictures or video could be used as a screen saver. Or, when you're eating breakfast in the morning, you could touch the table to find out the day's weather forecast, or read the news. See ya later print newspaper! If you have that, why would you go grab your MacBook and go through the hassle of typing and clicking?
I am sure there will be hundreds, and most likely thousands, of different applications for this technology in the coming years. And I am also sure that those applications will not be all be tied into the "table" form factor. You will probably see this integrated into wall displays in businesses as well as homes, refrigerators, and who knows what else. The way people interact with technology is evolving every year. Do you think the keyboard will still be the preferred way to input text into a computer 20 years from now? I wonder...
Give MS some credit for creating an impressive product. You'll be seeing A LOT of them in the future in one form or another.
Comments
Finally, a scroll-wheel on a laptop, listen up apple!
What's wrong with sticking 2 fingers on your track pad and moving them up and down?
Word.
Great question!
I think that some patience might be in order.... No one has come out with much of anything multitouch yet. All there is now is a bunch of claims and prototypes (yes, yes, I know that some LG-Prada stuff is out there).
Here's one
and the precursor to that device.
Multitouch technology has been around since about the mid-90's. And as a concept, probably the late 80's. However, no one has come up with a compelling application for it. Most of the products have been very niche (like the Lemur).
Even with the iPhone, multitouch is not a centerpiece. I can see it being useful for the onscreen keyboard and some control gestures (like keyboard shortcuts, but with gestures), but not much else.
Though personally, I'm looking forward to playing with some control surface ideas when I get an iPhone.
What's wrong with sticking 2 fingers on your track pad and moving them up and down?
Just like what's wrong with sticking two fingers and clicking. Its more of a 'hack' (that's neither intuitive nor known by anyone unless you read the fine print somewhere) then a feature. Apple's insistence on its single-button philisophy is one thing, but then doing right-click but doing everything to avoid actually having two buttons (stupid mighty mouse design, single-button laptops), it seems they're just really trying to find ways not to include a second button, so people won't say they were wrong all these years.
Here's what irks me. Bill has been talking about this table for a long time. Maybe he should fix Windows first. I'm not even talking about the big stuff. I'm talking about the little things that make it hard to use. Explorer's interface is brutal. Try to explain to your grandma why the New Folder link is only there sometimes. It might be intuitive to you and me - but it's not to everyone else.
Hey, maybe we can also yell at Apple that, before it continues wasting its time with iPods and iPhones, they could fix freakin' OS X first (esp. the buggy finder)!
Just like what's wrong with sticking two fingers and clicking. Its more of a 'hack' (that's neither intuitive nor known by anyone unless you read the fine print somewhere) then a feature. Apple's insistence on its single-button philisophy is one thing, but then doing right-click but doing everything to avoid actually having two buttons (stupid mighty mouse design, single-button laptops), it seems they're just really trying to find ways not to include a second button, so people won't say they were wrong all these years.
I find the 2 fingers on the track pad & click a single button easier than clicking the 2nd trackpad button. 2 finger scrolling is also great.
The main thing is that i would not call surface a multitouch display. It is a camera input display capable of sensing multiple objects. It uses 5 cameras to tell it where and object it, this is then sent back to the sceen which input the data onto the screen. The main problem with this display is that it is really inaccurate. You can even see this in the video. What exactly are they hiding by using huge brush sizes? They are hidding the fact the the drawing is almost and inch off from the persons hand at some points. The drawing is also lags behind the persons hand so there is a slight delay. Just think of how huge this problem will be for typing. There will be mistypes everywhere and it will take 2 seconds for the letter you hit to show up.
It also uses a projector. These are not as accurate as most screens and many have problems displaying in bright areas. MAny projectors also have bad colors. Just think about having it at a restaurant. All the food displayed on it will look off colored. Also, what if you are at a cafe that has one of these sitting in the sun. Good luck trying to read it, especially with the glare of the glass.
As for the objects placed on the table, you have to stick a bar code like object to the back of them for surface to be able to reconize them correctly.
There are many more things that it lacks but we need more information about it.
However, no one has come up with a compelling application for it.
What about Jeff Han, i would say his multitouch displays are alot better than this. He has created some really interesing applications.
http://www.perceptivepixel.com/
Multitouch technology has been around since about the mid-90's. And as a concept, probably the late 80's. However, no one has come up with a compelling application for it. Most of the products have been very niche ......
That's what I really meant to say.... you said it much better!
Just like what's wrong with sticking two fingers and clicking. Its more of a 'hack' (that's neither intuitive nor known by anyone unless you read the fine print somewhere) then a feature. Apple's insistence on its single-button philisophy is one thing, but then doing right-click but doing everything to avoid actually having two buttons (stupid mighty mouse design, single-button laptops), it seems they're just really trying to find ways not to include a second button, so people won't say they were wrong all these years.
I disagree. Since two finger mouse gestures arrived I can use either hand to comfortably work the mouse and execute a 'right' or 'left' click. Also, scrolling through webpages couldn't be easier. No need to move the mouse to the scroll bar and continuously depress the mouse button to scroll. In fact, now that I think of it, I am using my left hand so often now that my right hand no longer gets sore from excessive use*.
* no masturbation jokes, please.
I'm not saying it can't happen, just saying that it's still quite a niche technology. The Lemur is a great solution in the music production/performance space, but that's still a niche.
As for the Foleo - great, that'll fit in my pocket nicely!
GG
* no masturbation jokes, please.
Not even a one-off?
And the slot machine arms don't transfer the same volume of germs? I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that these tables don't really increase "germ interchange" all that much.
Since we are being silly, they could emit a UV light when they don't detect human or pet activity in the area.
The concept and idea is pretty cool. It looks fairly cluttered and seems impractical now. I doubt these will make it to your local restaurant; a $10,000 table is a grossly large investment.
They say that they can get them down to consumer pricing in 3-5 years. The first ones are going to Harrah's, Sheraton and the like, those two are named partners on the Microsoft Surface site.
$10K is reasonable given its a finished package that contains a projector, computer and display surface + software of some kind.
You can build one for cheaper but without software and with lower fit and finish.
Right now, it's just a matter of whether there will be a killer app. It's probably going to be a different killer app for businesses vs. consumer use.
Just like what's wrong with sticking two fingers and clicking. Its more of a 'hack' (that's neither intuitive nor known by anyone unless you read the fine print somewhere) then a feature. Apple's insistence on its single-button philisophy is one thing, but then doing right-click but doing everything to avoid actually having two buttons (stupid mighty mouse design, single-button laptops), it seems they're just really trying to find ways not to include a second button, so people won't say they were wrong all these years.
Two buttons? I find it hard to live without three. Most PC notebooks are well behind the game in that respect. We might as well carry it to an extreme and ask why our optical mice don't have 104 keyboards on them.
My MAJOR concern about the Microsoft Surface touch tabletop is that many hands in public places are going to be touching the device - many hands carry many germs. As a healthcare provider, we teach others to "wash your hands" time and again because you never know who last touched that door nob or table top?
A simple flat surface should be easy to clean. People are too germ-o-phobic. There are 10x as many "germ" organisms in a human as there are human cells in the same body. The world is starting to see some "blowback" from being too germicidal, antiviral & antibacterial where the buggers evolve such that the techniques and drugs don't work anymore.
My MAJOR concern about the Microsoft Surface touch tabletop is that many hands in public places are going to be touching the device - many hands carry many germs. As a healthcare provider, we teach others to "wash your hands" time and again because you never know who last touched that door nob or table top? Unlike the iPhone which is primarily for one user, I see trouble brewing for the Surface especially when the world has another outbreak of whatever disease is prevelent at the time and the public will be cautioned to not meet in public places until said outbreak is under control.
As for the Foleo - great, that'll fit in my pocket nicely!
GG
then you must be concerned about shopping cart handles, elevator buttons, toilet doors, etc. etc. etc. never mind shaking hands with people! your position is somehow not very realistic.
As I watched the promo video here,, I kept thinking "Are they joking?"
So, if we follow along: smart phones give you email, docs and the internet in a tiny package, and free you from your laptop! But: it's so tiny its hard to use! So: you need a.... uh..... laptop!
But, see, it's a somewhat smaller and cheaper laptop! And does less! So it's less confusing!
One of the tag lines is "make presentations without dragging out your laptop." I can see that: "Hmmm, I have my laptop there in my bag, but hey! My Foleo is right here..... strapped to my chest, I guess.... so no dragging for me!"
Actually, this is a useful test of my oft stated theory that there is no such thing as a useful form factor between "fits in your pocket" and "subnotebook". Every time anyone tries to split that difference it either falls just short of being a subnotebook (in which case just get that) or adds deal breaking bulk to what is not much more than a PDA/phone.
I'm a skeptic on multitouch on large screens. I don't see much advantage to it beyond enhanced powerpoint presentations. Even the demo shown on Mossberg's website leaves me puzzled. After decades of tossing our photos willy-nilly in a box and rummaging through them with our hands, we finally have some decent photo filing software and Steve Ballmer thinks the next big thing is to toss your digital photos willy-nilly in a virtual box and rummage through them virtually with your hands? It's pretty impressive to watch, but I have 4000 photos in iPhoto and I, for the life of me, can't imagine how I can organize and search through them by 'virtual rummaging' with multi-touch. And if you say, well for sure the device will allow more conventional sorting methods, then I say so what's the point of multi-touch beyond being an expensive toy for showing off?
The MS Surface is a nice conversation piece- the coffee table book IS the coffee table. But it won't replace the monitor and keyboard and pointer combo. Nothing will replace the keyboard in the foreseeable future, not multi-touch, not handwriting recognition, not dictation because with a small investment in time and effort to hone your typing skills, there is no faster way to input text into a computer. And you can talk and listen while you're typing.
At $5k-$10K each, these tables are not meant for consumers. They are meant to replace kiosks or serve as interactive displays at stores, etc. But yes, I CAN see someone storing (or streaming) their iPhoto collection on one of these tables at some point when the cost comes down. We do it with Apple TV and picture frames now, don't we, so why not? Pictures or video could be used as a screen saver. Or, when you're eating breakfast in the morning, you could touch the table to find out the day's weather forecast, or read the news. See ya later print newspaper! If you have that, why would you go grab your MacBook and go through the hassle of typing and clicking?
I am sure there will be hundreds, and most likely thousands, of different applications for this technology in the coming years. And I am also sure that those applications will not be all be tied into the "table" form factor. You will probably see this integrated into wall displays in businesses as well as homes, refrigerators, and who knows what else. The way people interact with technology is evolving every year. Do you think the keyboard will still be the preferred way to input text into a computer 20 years from now? I wonder...
Give MS some credit for creating an impressive product. You'll be seeing A LOT of them in the future in one form or another.