Oh, more than just a few Documentation completely sucks, though it probably shouldn't come as any surprise. Don't even get me started on the debugger....
It has definitely been a long transition between WO 4.5 and WO 5.1.2. WebObjects has been standing still for a long time as Apple moved it over to the Java platform. However, I am optimistic that things will start picking up now. WO 5.1.2 is now as usable as WO4.5. WebObjects and EOF are still way ahead of their time, and DirectToWeb is also an incredible technology.
<strong> WO 5.1.2 is now as usable as WO4.5. WebObjects and EOF are still way ahead of their time, and DirectToWeb is also an incredible technology.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ya know, the more I use WO, the more I get caught up in this love/hate relationship ... I must admit, most of the time, we do our little dance over on the love end of the spectrum, but every now and then, there's these supreme gotcha's ...
... had one the other day ... and ya know, there's absolutely no place to turn - generally the best you can do is hunt thru the Omni-Group's mailing lists, but if it ain't there, you're consumated ... even the books out there now, while they help (and thank god for these, since, as of a year ago, there was absolutely nothing)they don't really give you what you need to really do anything beyond a simple project on your own.
What's holding back WO?
Simple: the fact that, unless you have access to a serious WO Guru to help you over some killer road blocks (which usually turn out to have nothing to do with Java or coding knowlege, just hidden stuff or knowlege of the bugs that, unless you got to know EOF way back in NeXT days, you'll never find out on your own) ... you can't with any degree of certainty finish anything but mostly basic straightforward stuff.
But if basic straightforward stuff is what you were after, why would you bother with WO?
What's seemed to have caused a lot of this WO niche shrinking is this crazy wishy-washy ambivilance about WO over at Apple ... they had this enterprise unit (iServices), which they wanted to parachute into the corporate world, and make a pile of money coding up big time WO apps. The only problem is, they were out-marketed by the likes of IBM, and didn't find it in their interests to make WO too understandable, lest the geeks outside of iServices eat Apple's corporate lunch.
Result?
Hardly any corporate gigs using WO.
Not very many new people successfully picking up the WO torch.
I remember a few years back, the number of Apple fans who got excited and tried to learn WO, it's NOT for a lack of trying! I've met many people who've taken the course, read the early docs etc etc but got nowhere ...
Anyway, that's for another day.
Fortunately, now with three third party books out there (finally), WO is at last starting to be accessable to those who aren't old NeXTies ... but still, the books certainly don't cover all the angles ... they barely even get into proper dealing with EditingContexts which is one of the biggest "secrets" (read: it has no business being obscure) when it comes to successfully dealing with WO.
I hope Apple is starting to get it, one of the whole points of Apple is the ability to make what required vast quantities of specialized knowlege in the past, accessable to those without that knowlege ... and while for the largest projects, you'll always need a WO guru on hand, WO could easily justify it's existence by letting those who don't have that specialized knowlege (yet are half decent coders in their own right) deal successfully with projects of a scale or sophistication that no other tool would give them access to.
A sort of raising of the bar if you like, which is what Apple does best anyway (hey, that's what the GUI was all about to begin with).
I really hope Apple starts to really get behind this, because other tools are starting to eat their lunch ... the bar is getting raised whether Apple does it or somebody else ... and there'd be a lot more in it for Apple and the rest of us, if they led the way here.
I tried WO about a year ago, back at version 5.0 and I was endlessly fascinated by the ease some things were accomplished. But documentation!! There was NONE. I went so far as to advance order a copy of a WO 5 book hoping it would get here in time so that I wouldn't become frustrated and give up. It didn't and I did. Now I'm using PHP and mySQL and it's ok. Not what I wanted and I still long for the days of doing things in 3 steps with WO that take a ton more in PHP, but overall, I'm not nearly as frustrated in my programming and learning.
I'll check back with WO after Jaguar comes out since there will likely be a major update then. (The Jaguar Developer/Server stuff seems interesting.) Hell, I could just go for it now, it's only $99 for me (gotta love student discounts). I'll think about it some more.
Comments
<strong>Yeah, I'd be interested to know what is going on at the WO sessions. We're a WO developer, and have a few gripes
Just a few?
Daniel
actually, don't even get me started on the rest
<strong> WO 5.1.2 is now as usable as WO4.5. WebObjects and EOF are still way ahead of their time, and DirectToWeb is also an incredible technology.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ya know, the more I use WO, the more I get caught up in this love/hate relationship ... I must admit, most of the time, we do our little dance over on the love end of the spectrum, but every now and then, there's these supreme gotcha's ...
... had one the other day ... and ya know, there's absolutely no place to turn - generally the best you can do is hunt thru the Omni-Group's mailing lists, but if it ain't there, you're consumated ... even the books out there now, while they help (and thank god for these, since, as of a year ago, there was absolutely nothing)they don't really give you what you need to really do anything beyond a simple project on your own.
What's holding back WO?
Simple: the fact that, unless you have access to a serious WO Guru to help you over some killer road blocks (which usually turn out to have nothing to do with Java or coding knowlege, just hidden stuff or knowlege of the bugs that, unless you got to know EOF way back in NeXT days, you'll never find out on your own) ... you can't with any degree of certainty finish anything but mostly basic straightforward stuff.
But if basic straightforward stuff is what you were after, why would you bother with WO?
What's seemed to have caused a lot of this WO niche shrinking is this crazy wishy-washy ambivilance about WO over at Apple ... they had this enterprise unit (iServices), which they wanted to parachute into the corporate world, and make a pile of money coding up big time WO apps. The only problem is, they were out-marketed by the likes of IBM, and didn't find it in their interests to make WO too understandable, lest the geeks outside of iServices eat Apple's corporate lunch.
Result?
Hardly any corporate gigs using WO.
Not very many new people successfully picking up the WO torch.
I remember a few years back, the number of Apple fans who got excited and tried to learn WO, it's NOT for a lack of trying! I've met many people who've taken the course, read the early docs etc etc but got nowhere ...
Anyway, that's for another day.
Fortunately, now with three third party books out there (finally), WO is at last starting to be accessable to those who aren't old NeXTies ... but still, the books certainly don't cover all the angles ... they barely even get into proper dealing with EditingContexts which is one of the biggest "secrets" (read: it has no business being obscure) when it comes to successfully dealing with WO.
I hope Apple is starting to get it, one of the whole points of Apple is the ability to make what required vast quantities of specialized knowlege in the past, accessable to those without that knowlege ... and while for the largest projects, you'll always need a WO guru on hand, WO could easily justify it's existence by letting those who don't have that specialized knowlege (yet are half decent coders in their own right) deal successfully with projects of a scale or sophistication that no other tool would give them access to.
A sort of raising of the bar if you like, which is what Apple does best anyway (hey, that's what the GUI was all about to begin with).
I really hope Apple starts to really get behind this, because other tools are starting to eat their lunch ... the bar is getting raised whether Apple does it or somebody else ... and there'd be a lot more in it for Apple and the rest of us, if they led the way here.
I'll check back with WO after Jaguar comes out since there will likely be a major update then. (The Jaguar Developer/Server stuff seems interesting.) Hell, I could just go for it now, it's only $99 for me (gotta love student discounts). I'll think about it some more.