The Dock "floor" is the worst UI idea Apple has ever had

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  • Reply 41 of 195
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    OK.



    So: the translucent menu bar doesn't bother me that much, I'll wait and see if it works for me.



    The reflective floor on the Dock, on the other hand, is a grotesque aberration that must be done away with.



    They've been doing that reflection thingy on iChat haven't they? Certainly is in the new one.



    Quote:

    The Dock floor has no earthly reason to be, beyond a little flash. Worse, it's a particularly clunky, poorly thought out kind of flash that just kind of sits there and says "Hey! I'm vaguely 3D! And reflective! Whatever!"



    The UI has always faked 3D to lesser and greater degree. Buttons, scrollbars and other UI elements have always had a 3D look to them. The entire UI is vaguely 3D.



    As far as consistency of depth...eh...I don't see it as a big deal. Nor do I see it as a confusing metaphor that requires any new cognitive load on the user. The only bad thing is the reduced contrast on the menu.



    As to whether Apple still cares about usability...um...do they still have a world class usability team? I mean there are folks at Microsoft research I've heard of in the UI world (like Bill Buxton) and there are a boatload of ex-Apple UI experts but um...I dunno who's at Apple.



    There are folks given they have some gesture patents but hmm...no one of the stature of Tog or Raskin come to mind...am I missing someone obvious?



    In '89 Tog had said that apple had spent $50M on the Apple UI R&D. They certainly have the money to do so in 2007 but are they?



    Vinea
  • Reply 42 of 195
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,665member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    They've been doing that reflection thingy on iChat haven't they? Certainly is in the new one.



    Yeah, but I kind of chalk that up to "application space", like Time Machine. I don't really care for those implementations either, but at least there are some conceptual and functional arguments to be made, and they aren't strictly speaking part of the OS look and feel.



    Worse are those applications use of 3D space, which seems to be completely arbitrary.



    Quote:

    The UI has always faked 3D to lesser and greater degree. Buttons, scrollbars and other UI elements have always had a 3D look to them. The entire UI is vaguely 3D.



    All of that strikes me as "texture", rather than 3D. There's no implication that any functionality is happening on a a different plane than the desktop, just that the front plane of the desktop has a bit of "thickness" to it.



    Quote:

    As far as consistency of depth...eh...I don't see it as a big deal. Nor do I see it as a confusing metaphor that requires any new cognitive load on the user. The only bad thing is the reduced contrast on the menu.



    Again, it's not the actual look or functionality of the thing (although I think it looks really awkward) but what it implies about Apple's intent for the UI. If they are going to start introducing 3D elements "here and there" without any concern for what that space really is, in terms of the OS GUI or HIG, we can pretty much forget about the whole idea of a presiding "metaphor", which is to say: Windows.



    Quote:

    As to whether Apple still cares about usability...um...do they still have a world class usability team? I mean there are folks at Microsoft research I've heard of in the UI world (like Bill Buxton) and there are a boatload of ex-Apple UI experts but um...I dunno who's at Apple.



    There are folks given they have some gesture patents but hmm...no one of the stature of Tog or Raskin come to mind...am I missing someone obvious?



    In '89 Tog had said that apple had spent $50M on the Apple UI R&D. They certainly have the money to do so in 2007 but are they?



    Vinea



    That is precisely my larger concern, something like a 3D dock shelf being symptomatic.



    Isn't the seamless, elegant, intuitive interaction of parts the reason a lot of us are on the Mac platform, in the first place? Isn't the idea of an OS as a "place" that "makes sense" something that keeps us here?
  • Reply 43 of 195
    irelandireland Posts: 17,785member
    I like the new Dock.
  • Reply 44 of 195
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,807moderator
    Would this be an improvement do you think?







    original:







    I basically made the dock floor smaller and black, then I made the menu transparent with white text but with a slight hint of black to show it up more and also balance out the dock.



    Apple use black reflections most and I don't know why they chose white for this.
  • Reply 45 of 195
    irelandireland Posts: 17,785member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    Would this be an improvement do you think?



    No, sorry. I like what apple has done. I just hope to God Safari and other apps don't have to stay above it, like they do currently when the dock isn't hidden.
  • Reply 46 of 195
    the cool gutthe cool gut Posts: 1,714member
    Sorry, I don't like the new dock - the floor is just clutter I don't need. What's worse, I keep my dock on the left hand side, and the new dock just looks rediculous on the side. Oh well, I hope you can revert to the old style somehow.
  • Reply 47 of 195
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    I'm a sideDocker too, but I dunno... I think it's kind of cool. It'll be like having a bunch of little Spideyicons clinging to the side of the building, ready to swoop down and webify email from my manager.



    What? Why are you all looking at me like that?
  • Reply 48 of 195
    outsideroutsider Posts: 6,008member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post


    I'm a sideDocker too, but I dunno... I think it's kind of cool. It'll be like having a bunch of little Spideyicons clinging to the side of the building, ready to swoop down and webify email from my manager.



    What? Why are you all looking at me like that?



    That's because Spiderman is so spring 07. It's all about Transformers now. Get with it.
  • Reply 49 of 195
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,665member
    So what does anyone think about the fact that this comes right out of Sun's Looking Glass demo?



    Did an Apple designer just see it, and say "cool", or does it suggest anything more?
  • Reply 50 of 195
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by thedillydotcom View Post


    cool ideas and i like the reflective floor but what i wonder about is how does this new dock look on either side of the window rather than at the bottom. i dont even use my dock at the bottom of the screen. i have WAY more screen real estate width wise. mine, like many other people, is on the right because im right handed and autohid because bouncing icons are obnoxious to a degree. with the current transparency, i cant even see the dock so its never obnoxious. i wonder how it will affect daily use with autohide and such.



    but yeah, the top bar isnt just transparent, its also manipulating colors / contrast. im not a huge fan of that idea. i'd have much rather seen them add some consistency to their design by making it too reflective by default and have a toggle for "transparent or reflective" under appearances so we could choose our flavor.



    Yechhh... I want the dock and the top nav bar (whatever it's called) to be consistently boring. If it's taking my attention away from my main work area, then it has no business in OSX, unless it's the child-friendly edition.
  • Reply 51 of 195
    mdriftmeyermdriftmeyer Posts: 7,503member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    I've explained my concerns in some detail. If you don't share them, feel free to not participate in this thread, noob.



    Grow the hell up. Dissension is participation in a debate. Your concerns complaining about 3D'ish UI concerns.



    What matters is whether the system has been made more accessible and behaviors are more predictable and aide in making one more productive.



    If you want to join the HIG at Apple I suggest you write a dissertation on how it can be improved?



    CC: Tim Wasko. He's always looking for folks to add to the brainstorming.



    P.S. He was a great guy to work with at NeXT and Apple so unless he turned into a complete prick he might even respond to your emails.



    Network your ideas within Apple and leverage them to get a job.



    If you're not in City Hall you'll never fix it. [according to your view it's in need of an overhaul.]
  • Reply 52 of 195
    mdriftmeyermdriftmeyer Posts: 7,503member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post


    Yechhh... I want the dock and the top nav bar (whatever it's called) to be consistently boring. If it's taking my attention away from my main work area, then it has no business in OSX, unless it's the child-friendly edition.



    I want a dwrite to turn off the Top Menu bar and give me my Openstep Menu system, personally.
  • Reply 53 of 195
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,665member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post


    Grow the hell up. Dissension is participation in a debate. Your concerns complaining about 3D'ish UI concerns.



    What matters is whether the system has been made more accessible and behaviors are more predictable and aide in making one more productive.



    If you want to join the HIG at Apple I suggest you write a dissertation on how it can be improved?



    CC: Tim Wasko. He's always looking for folks to add to the brainstorming.



    P.S. He was a great guy to work with at NeXT and Apple so unless he turned into a complete prick he might even respond to your emails.



    Network your ideas within Apple and leverage them to get a job.



    If you're not in City Hall you'll never fix it. [according to your view it's in need of an overhaul.]



    So, dissension is part of the debate, but me having a bone to pick with the UI is rightly addressed by my getting a job at Apple, or I should just STFU?



    It seems to me that "whether the system has been made more accessible and behaviors are more predictable and aide in making one more productive" is exactly the angle I've been discussing this from, so I'm not sure what your point is.
  • Reply 54 of 195
    iposteriposter Posts: 1,560member
    The black is definetly better than the white, but I'm still undecided if it's an improvement in any case....
  • Reply 55 of 195
    kareliakarelia Posts: 525member
    The black looks less like a dock and more like a hole in the desktop. Add to that the fact that it's way too reflective (as in 100% reflectiveness), and we have a problem. I say stick with the white.
  • Reply 56 of 195
    almalm Posts: 111member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kali View Post


    I HATE this new dock ! I just HATE the false 3D dock with reflection ! And I hate this transparent menu bar ! GEEZ C'MON APPLE !



    Define true 3D please.



    I personally have nothing against new Dock. I just hope there will be option to make menu bar opaque.
  • Reply 57 of 195
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 17,895member
    adda:



    Quote:

    It fundamentally changes the desktop metaphor, from more or less flat with flat windows lying on top of each other, to "3D space about an inch deep".



    Ding! They're working towards a 3D appearance for the workspace. That was my first thought when seeing it. I don't really like it to be honest.
  • Reply 58 of 195
    nerudaneruda Posts: 437member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    OK.

    The Dock floor has no earthly reason to be, beyond a little flash.



    I agree with you. Apple's demo of the Desktop is embarrassing. The Dock floor is all form without any function: it takes away even more desktop space (placing the icons further up the screen instead of the bottom, even if you hide the Dock), is probably a waste of processing space (useless reflections) and adds little or no functionality. Why would anyone drag a window below the dock just to see the window's reflection? I am actually embarrassed for Apple for thinking that such a "useless" feature is worthy of a demo.



    On the other hand, I think that, overall, Leopard will be a good upgrade. Hopefully Leopard will continue the trend from 10.1-10.4 and continue to be more responsive/faster, and the finder looks like a considerable improvement. I'll reserve my final judgment until I start using it, but I think Leopard will be better than Tiger.
  • Reply 59 of 195
    trobertstroberts Posts: 702member
    I think Apple has a long-term plan for the UI but has to implement it piece by piece due to technical and practical reasons.



    Practical reasons:

    1 - Going immediately from a 2D to 3D desktop might be too much for people to handle, but if affects/techniques are added gradually then users do not have to learn a new way of doing things, but an "improved" way. This will be similar to Expose` and Spotlight in that they weren't revolutionary or even needed, but once you use them it is tough not to have them.



    Technical reasons:

    1 - Hardware: needs to be able to create/render the desired effects

    2 - Software: needs to be able to get hardware to create/render effects



    When you move items around your screen or play games and move around in them, nothing, and I mean NOTHING, moves even though it looks like it. What actually happens is individual pixels change colors, but since they are so close together we see "real" objects so the appearance of movement is perceived. When it comes to software, developers need to figure out how to make their applications use 3D affects to enhance its usability, even if it means making the application look and act even more 2D than it would without 3D capabilities. We saw how the new iChat can separate you from what is behind you so how long will it be until the iSight camera will get sensors so a person can be viewed in true 3D, zits, boogers, and all? Will the image of the person eventually be their own window so the only screen space used is what space they occupy?
  • Reply 60 of 195
    dappledapple Posts: 44member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by the cool gut View Post


    Sorry, I don't like the new dock - the floor is just clutter I don't need. What's worse, I keep my dock on the left hand side, and the new dock just looks rediculous on the side. Oh well, I hope you can revert to the old style somehow.



    Why would the vertical (or side) dock have a vertical dock floor?



    Couldn't the dock floor remain horizontal and beneath the bottom icon, allowing the icons to be stacked upon the dock floor?



    Just asking.
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