What should have been added with 10.5's finder updates

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  • Reply 41 of 57
    physguyphysguy Posts: 920member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    Nice try - but iPhoto's behaviour is not correct. The button is meant to be zoom, not maximise. Also, iTunes is a special case - I wouldn't want the zoom button to function differently for iTunes, but it certainly can't be used as an example of "zoom" working correctly.



    My point really was that hardly any applications do actually fit to content when you press the zoom button:



    Address Book - does nothing

    Automator - maximises

    Calculator - special case, switches between modes

    Dictionary - maximises

    iCal - maximises

    iMovie - maximises

    Mail - maximises both main window and compose new message window

    Activity Monitor - maximises

    Airport Admin - maximises

    Audio Midi Setup - maximises height even though that's not necessary to see all content

    Bluetooth file exchange - maximises

    Disk Utility - maximises

    Keychain Access - maximises

    Netinfo Manager - maximises

    Network Utility - maximises

    ODBC Administrator - maximises

    Printer Setup Utility - maximises

    System Profiler - maximises

    Terminal - maximises

    Mac Help - maximises



    Hold on! What's the O/P complaining about? Nearly all Apple apps already do maximise when you press the Zoom button.





    First, correction - Addressbook does open to fit the address if you've shrunk or expanded the window. This is appropriate.



    Overall, if you take my post and yours you've basically supported the current design. Apps are supposed to do the 'appropriate' thing with the input 'zoom'. For the most part, they do. If a couple don't then them 'bug' is with the application not the intended use of the 'zoom' function. The main difference between the windows and OS X application is the on OS X the function needs some thought by the designer as to the appropriate application response.
  • Reply 42 of 57
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,870member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by physguy View Post


    First, correction - Addressbook does open to fit the address if you've shrunk or expanded the window. This is appropriate.



    Oh, so it does.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by physguy View Post


    Overall, if you take my post and yours you've basically supported the current design. Apps are supposed to do the 'appropriate' thing with the input 'zoom'.



    But maximise is not the appropriate action for any of the apps I listed.
  • Reply 43 of 57
    gongon Posts: 2,437member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Slewis View Post


    You are absolutely correct, some apps do make sense when they are full screen, that is still no reason to offer Maximize.



    3 examples where I keep an App full screen.



    1) Vienna

    ...

    This works because Vienna is always at the size I left it in, I never needed to maximize it, all I did was drag the corner to the size I wanted while using Vienna and every day when I open Vienna it happily opens up at full screen.



    2) iTunes

    ...

    This really isn't by choice so much as I'm really forced to because of that huge iLike Sidebar. But I love using iLike and whenever I'm not paying any attention to iTunes I hit the Zoom button and it turns into a Mini player which I hardly ever touch due to my love of Quicksilver controls. Oh and when I want it full screen again, I just hit the Zoom button again and boom, back at the size I use it at.



    3) iPhoto



    I consider photo viewing and editing another single task operation that I put all of my attention into until I don't need it anymore, then I quit it. Again, this works because it's always at the size I want it to be when I open it.



    The Zoom button works and there is really no need to create an extra setting just so you can use it one time and leave it like that.



    Who said I'd use Maximize once and leave it like that? I want to maximize individual Safari/Preview/etc windows, see lots of content at once, then kill the window or return it to manually set size, while other windows remain as they are. With tabs, the content in one tab might call for Maximize while another's might not. I want to maximize an IDE to work in it, then return to manual size (usually half a screen) so I can have a web browser beside it for reference. I want to maximize most apps while I'm on a laptop display, then return to manual sizing when I'm on the desktop display.



    Even though I agree the Zoom concept is nice, in practice I don't see it working correctly often enough that I'd even form a habit of using it. And that's in Apple's own apps.



    Zoom cannot replace Maximize, Maximize can't replace Zoom.
  • Reply 44 of 57
    physguyphysguy Posts: 920member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    Oh, so it does.







    But maximise is not the appropriate action for any of the apps I listed.



    I disagree on most of those because offhand I don't see a better choice. I'm not arguing about this as I haven't given the use of 'zoom' in each of those apps much thought but as a default (on the part of the app designer) action for zoom to maximize seems to address (most) of the concerns here. If no good reason is found for a specific action then default to maximize within the app.
  • Reply 45 of 57
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    http://developer.apple.com/documenta...00961-BACEDHFG



    That there be the suggested behavior.



    This week, at least.
  • Reply 46 of 57
    physguyphysguy Posts: 920member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post


    http://developer.apple.com/documenta...00961-BACEDHFG



    That there be the suggested behavior.



    This week, at least.



    thanks for that link. The comment about very large monitors is very useful, especially as they get bigger and bigger.
  • Reply 47 of 57
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,870member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post


    http://developer.apple.com/documenta...00961-BACEDHFG



    That there be the suggested behavior.



    This week, at least.



    Well, isn't it a shame that Apple can't follow their own guidelines?
  • Reply 48 of 57
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Yeah, that's been the beef with a lot of us over the past 2-3 years. If they have a new direction *with a plan*, great... let us in on it. If not... er...



    Personally, after seeing 10.5's Finder, I think the plan is "Use the basic iTunes interface for anything that requires organization: Collections on the left (static and smart), Items in the middle, Informationals on the bottom, Toolbar on the top" It kind of makes sense - it's a successful interface for what it does, a gazillion Windows users are used to it now, and it just might make them feel comfy enough to switch. Enough of the old, justifiable and reasonable behaviors are still evident to make me not totally nervous, but gosh darnit, I just want some *vision* again, y'know? OTOH, it feels like they're much more willing to experiment, and that's not a bad thing... in moderation.



    The Delicious Generation is a breath of fresh air, I just hope they don't leave us all wheezing, trying to keep up with all the changes that seem to be *for* the sake of change.
  • Reply 49 of 57
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,665member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post


    Yeah, that's been the beef with a lot of us over the past 2-3 years. If they have a new direction *with a plan*, great... let us in on it. If not... er...



    Personally, after seeing 10.5's Finder, I think the plan is "Use the basic iTunes interface for anything that requires organization: Collections on the left (static and smart), Items in the middle, Informationals on the bottom, Toolbar on the top" It kind of makes sense - it's a successful interface for what it does, a gazillion Windows users are used to it now, and it just might make them feel comfy enough to switch. Enough of the old, justifiable and reasonable behaviors are still evident to make me not totally nervous, but gosh darnit, I just want some *vision* again, y'know? OTOH, it feels like they're much more willing to experiment, and that's not a bad thing... in moderation.



    The Delicious Generation is a breath of fresh air, I just hope they don't leave us all wheezing, trying to keep up with all the changes that seem to be *for* the sake of change.



    God help us all if Apple starts taking cues from social networking sites.
  • Reply 50 of 57
    targontargon Posts: 103member
    New Open/Close dialogs !!! Apple has a history of designing terrible dialogs. Id prefer to have a regular Finder window with all its options available, maybe just provide them without the unified theme if concern about visual differences between dialogs and regular Finder windows.
  • Reply 51 of 57
    sc_marktsc_markt Posts: 1,401member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by thedillydotcom View Post


    1. How about a maximize button?



    I understand the principle behind the zoom button working in conjunction with expose and i gotta say, i really don't care. I've been using Tiger exclusively since it came out and I still regularly wish i could maximize and restore a window to full screen / original size. zoom, inadequate, flaky, randomly useful, rarely used. if you could track the number of clicks I placed on the zoom button, it might be 3 per month. I reach for the resize handle in a tedious process of resizing the window from only the bottom right corner and draaaaaaaag it across the screen until my window is the appropriate size. its bunk. done with it. dead to me. maximize. its what upright, thumb garnering, mostly hair free apes demand. do it!



    2. How about folders sorted to the top of a folder?



    Super. You can sort by type. Whatever the algorithm is that controls the sorting behavior, how about sticking a 0 in front of the sorting keyword so the thing sorts folders to the top of the open folders contents list all the time. It's like having a website where the site's navigation bar is somewhere mixed in with the contents of the page randomly as you browse the site. It's really REALLY obnoxious. What's the hold up here. We're at release 5 and we still can't sort like civilized monkeys. UNCOOL.





    3. Is it too hard to add an OPTIONAL breadcrumb trail?



    You don't have to have it for everyone, but you could slide it in there like a surprise cupcake on my birthday from that cute girl i work with. You know, something for us geeks that have more than 4 or 5 windows open which might just have the same folder name. Yeah I know I can hold down the all mighty apple button to click the folder name and see what the pathing info is underneath it, but when I have those 4 or 5 windows open, that's 5 to 10 clicks i could have saved myself by just looking at the path. As a second point of interest, how about the fact that sometimes I just want to see what directory chain I'm in. Maybe I'm under a symlink and I need to be under a hard link. It's the geek in me to want to see those things. If you have to add some pizzaz to a breadcrumb trail for it to be an apple innovation, how about adding a way i can copy + paste portions of that address by selecting it but also adding icons somehow indicating what kind of file, link, shortcut, application, or whatever was traversed to get where i currently am in the finder folder. now that would be really friggen cool and VERY useful in my daily programming efforts.



    or, don't. you guys know everything already. that's why we still have that awesome 1 button mouse everyone raves about... OH, WAIT?!



    Some basic things I wanted:



    1) A minidock that sits in the menubar and which worked almost the same as taskmenubar did.

    2) Labels that let you also just shade the folders and where you can change the label color.
  • Reply 52 of 57
    igrouchigrouch Posts: 47member
    "For God's sake Apple if you are reading 'THIS' thread, there's people crying out for a Zoom button, just give it to them. OS S isn't perfect, and it's because of things like this. Who cares what are the reasons anymore, people want it, just make them happy."



    Hi Ireland. I know your frustration at hoping Apple are reading this thread and are listening . You can send Feedback to them though. Yes they don't reply. But it's like writing to your local Minister or TD (irish member of parliament) about the state of the roads in Kerry. At least you can vent you frustration and get it of your chest.



    That said I have used the Feedback form several times, as I am sure others have on the exact same complaints, and have found that a number of updates down the road that several issues have been addressed. They do listen sometimes.



    http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/



    I have sent several notes already about my perceptions of what is needed or needs to be changed in Leopard, without actually having had a hands on go with it yet.



    Actually here is an idea, that sound like the bread crumbs idea (I like the terminology). Finder windows representing locations on other volumes and shares over the network. It would be nice if the window frames had some sort of demarcation to highlight the fact that they are showing stuff that is not on your Mac/HD/Boot volume etc.. This could save a lot of disastrous situations (i.e overwriting files in different locations or losing stuff in the wrong location) when moving and copying file/folders to places other than your main volume/HD. Maybe small colour coded diagonal corners on the Finder windows showing locations outside the / directory.
  • Reply 53 of 57
    slewisslewis Posts: 2,081member
    Null.
  • Reply 54 of 57
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by thedillydotcom View Post


    1. How about a maximize button?



    I understand the principle behind the zoom button working in conjunction with expose and i gotta say, i really don't care. I've been using Tiger exclusively since it came out and I still regularly wish i could maximize and restore a window to full screen / original size. zoom, inadequate, flaky, randomly useful, rarely used. if you could track the number of clicks I placed on the zoom button, it might be 3 per month. I reach for the resize handle in a tedious process of resizing the window from only the bottom right corner and draaaaaaaag it across the screen until my window is the appropriate size. its bunk. done with it. dead to me. maximize. its what upright, thumb garnering, mostly hair free apes demand. do it!



    2. How about folders sorted to the top of a folder?



    Super. You can sort by type. Whatever the algorithm is that controls the sorting behavior, how about sticking a 0 in front of the sorting keyword so the thing sorts folders to the top of the open folders contents list all the time. It's like having a website where the site's navigation bar is somewhere mixed in with the contents of the page randomly as you browse the site. It's really REALLY obnoxious. What's the hold up here. We're at release 5 and we still can't sort like civilized monkeys. UNCOOL.





    3. Is it too hard to add an OPTIONAL breadcrumb trail?



    You don't have to have it for everyone, but you could slide it in there like a surprise cupcake on my birthday from that cute girl i work with. You know, something for us geeks that have more than 4 or 5 windows open which might just have the same folder name. Yeah I know I can hold down the all mighty apple button to click the folder name and see what the pathing info is underneath it, but when I have those 4 or 5 windows open, that's 5 to 10 clicks i could have saved myself by just looking at the path. As a second point of interest, how about the fact that sometimes I just want to see what directory chain I'm in. Maybe I'm under a symlink and I need to be under a hard link. It's the geek in me to want to see those things. If you have to add some pizzaz to a breadcrumb trail for it to be an apple innovation, how about adding a way i can copy + paste portions of that address by selecting it but also adding icons somehow indicating what kind of file, link, shortcut, application, or whatever was traversed to get where i currently am in the finder folder. now that would be really friggen cool and VERY useful in my daily programming efforts.



    or, don't. you guys know everything already. that's why we still have that awesome 1 button mouse everyone raves about... OH, WAIT?!



    This guy's got a point. The "zoom" thing is a bit weird. I've got used to it, but you can't really call it a "zoom", though I guess you *could* argue it *is* a maximise button, in that it maximises to the minimum amount of space needed (I'm thinking of Safari here).



    One thing that does get to me at times is the amount of clutter OS X seems to lend itself to ? sometimes it's useful to have a couple of apps open side-by-side (I often copy from TextEdit into BBEdit), but other times I can accidentally click on the message pane in Thunderbird (for instance) when I'm doing other things because sometimes I'm a pixel or two out clicking on a window (resizing document windows in PhotoShop is a major culprit here) .



    I think there are benefits from both approaches. It seems like the people that are so vehemently dismissing the notion of a Windows-esque "maximise" button probably haven't had that much experience of using a different system.



    I've used Windows and Mac systems over the years, and they both annoy the hell out of me at times!
  • Reply 55 of 57
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by googleplex View Post


    couldn't agree more. I still find myself adjusting the size of the finder a lot especially in column view... it would be nice if it was more intelligent.



    Also tabs in the finder window would be amazing.... and a smart button to merge finder windows together in tabs.



    I guess I gotta still use Path Finder
  • Reply 56 of 57
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    22.) If a file extension is displayed in the Finder, then you can change the extension by highlighting it and typing whatever extension you want. If you do this, a dialogue box will appear:







    This dialogue box should incorporate a tick-box that says next to it "don't warn me about changing filename extensions". Having to deal with that box when you know exactly what you are doing is extremely annoying.



    This is definitely an option in the most recent (pre WWDC) version of the Finder.
  • Reply 57 of 57
    Bring back my animated icons or the Dog Cow gets it. I'm serious.



    Oh kineticon! Where for art thou with an OS X implementation?
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