I'm thinking we'll get a new iMac (with optional Blu Ray burner), updated Mac mini, iLife (with Blu Ray compatible iDVD) and iWork '08, and a big ol' update to .Mac (remember that us early adopters are set to renew in the next couple of months and they want to give us incentives to buy again)
I'm thinking we'll get a new iMac (with optional Blu Ray burner), updated Mac mini, iLife (with Blu Ray compatible iDVD) and iWork '08, and a big ol' update to .Mac (remember that us early adopters are set to renew in the next couple of months and they want to give us incentives to buy again)
I am sticking with my belief that SJ said iLife would be part of Leopard.
So 30th anniversary right? I'm thinking its got to be huge... so what? well multitouch sreen just seems a little too far away, introducing a new imac with a little chin? well thats kind of a let down. how about a new keyboard? wooo-hoooo(sarcasm intended) so what then? well... I'm hoping its a new mouse interface. Imagine if your mouse had multitouch similar to iphone. now just hang on a second... not a huge revelation, but imagine all the things you normally need your keyboard to do that you could do with fingers on your mouse! cut paste delete send-to .. not to mention all the program specific things that would make working so much easier!
I am sticking with my belief that SJ said iLife would be part of Leopard.
What are you basing this on? If you mean the "complete package" speech at WWDC 2006, the only software Steve mentioned as part of Leopard's "complete package" is Boot Camp, Front Row, and Photo Booth.
You might think he implied that iLife would be included, but that's not the same as saying it, and the implication is pretty slight in itself.
What are you basing this on? If you mean the "complete package" speech at WWDC 2006, the only software Steve mentioned as part of Leopard's "complete package" is Boot Camp, Front Row, and Photo Booth.
You might think he implied that iLife would be included, but that's not the same as saying it, and the implication is pretty slight in itself.
he mentioned iLife at one point and it sounded like he said it was part of leopard. I am not the only one that assumed this.
Operative word being 'assumed'... From what I recall, he mentioned the next version of iLife, but he never said, hinted at, or implied that it was going to be *part of* Leopard, as in, included with for free.
I mean, he mentioned Yosemite National Park, too, and even showed pictures, but I'm not expecting a deed to the park in my copy of Leopard.
It doesn't have to be an imac as long as it isn't a portable.
The iMac is not an overwhelming desktop.
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The last thing I, and many others apparently want on our desks are laptops with bigger monitors plugged in, and desktop keyboards.
Is that what you have in your work environment?
I have a Mac Pro and a MBP because of some of the work I do but I could easily live with a slightly beefed up MBP from the current santa rosas. With a Condor GRID in place and the ability to RDP to the big iron in the IT department where I can get a virtual machine with far more compute cycles than my Mac Pro and you're unchained from a desktop except when your UI requirements exceed what you can get from a mobile unit.
Most folks here do have a laptop vs a desktop now. They don't need much CPU for stuff and a laptop lets them work from home.
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Your saying so doesn't make it so. There will be about 100 million desktops sold this year. Why is that? Every person and organization could have bought laptops instead, but they didn't.
Of that 100M only 2.4M were Mac desktops. While I don't think the iMac is going away it doesn't mean its critical to the lineup.
There are more and more folks getting laptops instead of desktops. I don't think that trend is disputed. That holds within the Apple demographic as well.
Given that Apple tends to be forward thinking and our demographic is loyal and also forward thinking I could see Apple moving toward a mobile/semi-mobile only lineup.
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I still wouldn't want a 20" MBP. I want a 22", or 24", or a 30". What now? You have, again, to go buy that extra monitor.
Two really unless you get the 30". However since Apple's demographic trends toward the upper end of the market, cost is not as significant a factor any more than it is for any other luxury/premium brand.
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And you assume that people like portable keyboards. Many people don't.
Apple too judging by the recent keyboard design. In any case there are these things called USB ports...and I did say that an iDock would be a requirement for much easier attachment to displays and input devices before losing the iMac line is feasible.
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Again, I'm not saying it must be an iMac. For all I care, Apple could just keep the 24" in the line for general purchase, and sell the 20" to schools.
Sure, get rid of the Mini. But replace them with something else, such as that mini tower.
Given there no mini-tower at the moment that seems unlikely and we're talking about whether Apple can meet the needs of its market segments with an all mobile lineup.
There is a trend to laptops and away from computer labs in schools. The MB seems a reasonable replacement for the iMac.
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I agree that your combo would do everything. But, my above comments show where I don't think it would go down big with the large desktop buying groups. I know you disagree.
The large desktop buying group that is 1/3 the size of the folks buying laptops in Apple's lineup?
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What I meant was that without the desktops in the line, and at the time we were discussing this earlier, I assumed that you were also classifying the Mac Pro in that catagory, there wouldn't be much "pull' toward the laptops without the high profile businesses.
Without them, high end software development would come to an abrupt halt.
Without the Mac Pro and the xServe that would certainly be true.
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since you are excluding the workstations from that equation, the situation would be a bit different, but not totally.
Find me a pro user that would prefer an iMac vs a MBP with an iDock.
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You misunderstood me. I'm talking about between desktop machines and laptops, not MB's and MBP's. Though people do say that the MBP keyboard is better, as are the screens.
I apologize, I said MP rather than spelling it out as Mac Pro. There is no ergonomic difference between my Mac Pro and my MBP as I used the same keyboard and 30" ACD with both. The MBP is currently on a 24" monitor at the moment.
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See, and you DO need to buy an extra (as apart from what comes with the laptop) monitor and keyboard. Extra room and expense.
Sure. Although an updated MB (with Santa Rosa) and 20" monitor isn't any more than a current 20" iMac. If priced with a 20" ACD + iDock for $1499 that wouldn't be any more expensive at the cost of dedicated graphics.
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They would die for the reasons I gave. Apple simply can't continue a successful professional business with just the power and sophistication of laptops. There are things they do well, but there are things they aren't suited for.
Again, what can't a MBP do that an iMac can?
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A dock would help. But, for most, it isn't a suitable replacement. They haven't proven themselves to be wildly popular. Apple had them. Few bought them.
In what context? There are few laptops in a business environment that I don't see coupled with a docking station in the office. As you say, there is an egonomic difference between laptops and desktops and a dock eliminates that difference.
Now it will always be a lower cost option to provide certain staff with desktops vs laptops with dock.
However for knowledge and creative workers the laptop is a more useful and cost effective solution in terms of how computers improve workflow and quality of life (important if you care about retention rates, productivity, etc) as opposed to absolute capital expenditure. It would always be cheaper to buy nothing.
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I really don't understand why you would think that that would really be suitable as a replacement. It seems to be very clumsy to me. I know few people who would want to lug it around. And if it's going to permanently replace a desktop model, then there's no purpose to it at all.
It addresses the power user/prosumer segment that would wish to have a larger more capable machine at the expense of mobility. As folks here have stated there are pro and prosumers using Macs to capture raw HD. A 20" MBP with fast drives would be a good fit for many creative users that need power with a certain level of mobility but end up tethered once on site.
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A NAS server can be, and is, used with desktop networks as well. I'm thinking of getting one myself for our network.
Vinea, this is a matter of viewpoints. The only way we'll see who is correct, is to wait five years and come back to it.
I suspect we'll have our boxing gloves on again.
While I don't see Apple abandoning the iMac in the next 5 years the fact remains that the iMac is essentially a low-mobility laptop. Apple has already abandoned the traditional desktop market with only AIOs, SFF and workstations.
That ship has sailed.
While I don't expect a full transition to just mobile products that there is a company (Toshiba) shipping more units than Apple that only has mobile products coupled with Apple's current product line and that I've shown that every major Apple market segment can be met with a mobility or CE product I think I've made the case that Apple COULD go that way without going out of business.
Not that it WILL...just that it COULD.
I will make you a 5 year bet though: In 5 years Apple will have one traditional laptop left in their lineup and it will fill the same role as the Mac Pro does in its current line up.
Everything else will be UMPCs (done correctly), phones and multitouch tablets (slates most likely). In 5 years only the very top end laptops (like current day workstations) will command 28% margins. Like with the desktops Apple will have unique mobile form factors and abandon the traditional laptop form factor.
If there is to be a successful tablet it will be made by Apple...just like the only successful AIO it is being made by Apple.
Apple's investment in OSX allows this and it is an ADVANTAGE to going all mobile or going offbeat form factor not a hindrance. Without OSX the iMac would sell about as well as Sony's AIO. Sucky.
Operative word being 'assumed'... From what I recall, he mentioned the next version of iLife, but he never said, hinted at, or implied that it was going to be *part of* Leopard, as in, included with for free.
I mean, he mentioned Yosemite National Park, too, and even showed pictures, but I'm not expecting a deed to the park in my copy of Leopard.
I saw the quote in here once before, but I don't have it now. It's ra easonable assumption if you see it.
An ultra-portable with flash memory would be awesome!
Agreed! Apple needs to give the 2.7 lb. ThinkPad x61 a run for its money - and flash memory bootup would be a big step in the right direction (along with better screen, match the ThinkPad battery life, make it less than 3 lbs., built-in wifi/bluetooth/wan).http://forums.appleinsider.com/image...s/1biggrin.gif
Also hope all the rumors are wrong and that they resurrect the mac mini (updated, of course). There's a need for a product from Apple in that performance/price slot - and I want one (or two).
Agreed! Apple needs to give the 2.7 lb. ThinkPad x61 a run for its money - and flash memory bootup would be a big step in the right direction (along with better screen, match the ThinkPad battery life, make it less than 3 lbs., built-in wifi/bluetooth/wan).http://forums.appleinsider.com/image...s/1biggrin.gif
Also hope all the rumors are wrong and that they resurrect the mac mini (updated, of course). There's a need for a product from Apple in that performance/price slot - and I want one (or two).
Samsung shows off flash laptop drive at CeBIT
That long-dreamed-of product, the solid-state laptop, is one step closer to reality, as Samsung is showing off a flash-powered laptop at CeBIT. The demo box uses a 32GB 1.8-inch solid-state drive created by Samsung, to show off the company's flash chops. Unfortunately, at $30 per gigabyte, the 32GB drive would cost over $900. However, with flash prices continuing to decline, and companies like Intel predicting that flash laptops are on their way, we may not have to wait too much longer for this to be feasible -- though, even at over $900, that flash laptop drive sounds mighty tempting.
Operative word being 'assumed'... From what I recall, he mentioned the next version of iLife, but he never said, hinted at, or implied that it was going to be *part of* Leopard, as in, included with for free.
I mean, he mentioned Yosemite National Park, too, and even showed pictures, but I'm not expecting a deed to the park in my copy of Leopard.
How bout a 7200 rpm hard drive that holds more than 160gb? How bout better cooling? True, a MBP could be a functional equivalent to an iMac, IF you are willing to turn it into one by purchasing 1.) a docking station 2.) a cinema display 3.) a separate keyboard and mouse (a small expenditure but still an extra step). Oh, and let's not forget that feature for feature (excluding mobility, of course) the iMac is far more cost-effective to the consumer. So to summarize, yes, you can make your MBP functionally equivalent to your desktop, provided you are willing to shell out the extra dough for a docking station, display, and keyboard and mouse.
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Originally Posted by vinea
As folks here have stated there are pro and prosumers using Macs to capture raw HD. A 20" MBP with fast drives would be a good fit for many creative users that need power with a certain level of mobility but end up tethered once on site.
First, 20"!? Isn't the point of a laptop mobility? I hardly think lugging around a 20" beast is mobile. Second, to suggest that the MBP out-of-box can serve as a replacement for a Mac Pro - the premier video editing machine - is just deslusional. You make a HUGE assumption in your rationale: "WITH FAST DRIVES." Sure, but those don't exist in laptops, not in large capacity anyway. The biggest internal hard drive available for the MBP is 250 gb, at 4200rpm! There is a 160gb option at 7200rpm, but that won't last long if you're capturing raw HD. Most video editing stations are equipped with at least 1TB of internal storage, and their hard drives are reading/writing data about 75 times faster than the largest MBP hard drive. No one in their right mind would use a MBP as their PRIMARY workstation to capture raw HD, at least not without a plethora of add ons (cinema, external hard drive, docking station).
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Originally Posted by vinea
While I don't see Apple abandoning the iMac in the next 5 years the fact remains that the iMac is essentially a low-mobility laptop.
See above. Dollar for dollar, feature for feature, the MBP is not a replacement for the iMac.
I have a Mac Pro and a MBP because of some of the work I do but I could easily live with a slightly beefed up MBP from the current santa rosas. With a Condor GRID in place and the ability to RDP to the big iron in the IT department where I can get a virtual machine with far more compute cycles than my Mac Pro and you're unchained from a desktop except when your UI requirements exceed what you can get from a mobile unit.
Most folks here do have a laptop vs a desktop now. They don't need much CPU for stuff and a laptop lets them work from home.
Of that 100M only 2.4M were Mac desktops. While I don't think the iMac is going away it doesn't mean its critical to the lineup.
There are more and more folks getting laptops instead of desktops. I don't think that trend is disputed. That holds within the Apple demographic as well.
Given that Apple tends to be forward thinking and our demographic is loyal and also forward thinking I could see Apple moving toward a mobile/semi-mobile only lineup.
Two really unless you get the 30". However since Apple's demographic trends toward the upper end of the market, cost is not as significant a factor any more than it is for any other luxury/premium brand.
Apple too judging by the recent keyboard design. In any case there are these things called USB ports...and I did say that an iDock would be a requirement for much easier attachment to displays and input devices before losing the iMac line is feasible.
Given there no mini-tower at the moment that seems unlikely and we're talking about whether Apple can meet the needs of its market segments with an all mobile lineup.
There is a trend to laptops and away from computer labs in schools. The MB seems a reasonable replacement for the iMac.
The large desktop buying group that is 1/3 the size of the folks buying laptops in Apple's lineup?
Without the Mac Pro and the xServe that would certainly be true.
Find me a pro user that would prefer an iMac vs a MBP with an iDock.
I apologize, I said MP rather than spelling it out as Mac Pro. There is no ergonomic difference between my Mac Pro and my MBP as I used the same keyboard and 30" ACD with both. The MBP is currently on a 24" monitor at the moment.
Sure. Although an updated MB (with Santa Rosa) and 20" monitor isn't any more than a current 20" iMac. If priced with a 20" ACD + iDock for $1499 that wouldn't be any more expensive at the cost of dedicated graphics.
Again, what can't a MBP do that an iMac can?
In what context? There are few laptops in a business environment that I don't see coupled with a docking station in the office. As you say, there is an egonomic difference between laptops and desktops and a dock eliminates that difference.
Now it will always be a lower cost option to provide certain staff with desktops vs laptops with dock.
However for knowledge and creative workers the laptop is a more useful and cost effective solution in terms of how computers improve workflow and quality of life (important if you care about retention rates, productivity, etc) as opposed to absolute capital expenditure. It would always be cheaper to buy nothing.
It addresses the power user/prosumer segment that would wish to have a larger more capable machine at the expense of mobility. As folks here have stated there are pro and prosumers using Macs to capture raw HD. A 20" MBP with fast drives would be a good fit for many creative users that need power with a certain level of mobility but end up tethered once on site.
While I don't see Apple abandoning the iMac in the next 5 years the fact remains that the iMac is essentially a low-mobility laptop. Apple has already abandoned the traditional desktop market with only AIOs, SFF and workstations.
That ship has sailed.
While I don't expect a full transition to just mobile products that there is a company (Toshiba) shipping more units than Apple that only has mobile products coupled with Apple's current product line and that I've shown that every major Apple market segment can be met with a mobility or CE product I think I've made the case that Apple COULD go that way without going out of business.
Not that it WILL...just that it COULD.
I will make you a 5 year bet though: In 5 years Apple will have one traditional laptop left in their lineup and it will fill the same role as the Mac Pro does in its current line up.
Everything else will be UMPCs (done correctly), phones and multitouch tablets (slates most likely). In 5 years only the very top end laptops (like current day workstations) will command 28% margins. Like with the desktops Apple will have unique mobile form factors and abandon the traditional laptop form factor.
If there is to be a successful tablet it will be made by Apple...just like the only successful AIO it is being made by Apple.
Apple's investment in OSX allows this and it is an ADVANTAGE to going all mobile or going offbeat form factor not a hindrance. Without OSX the iMac would sell about as well as Sony's AIO. Sucky.
Vinea
Vinea, this is getting way too long.
I can't see a reason to respond to every point, because the detail isn't pertinent, and you are ignoring some of the points I've made in that you wash right over them.
But, to cut to the chase. You make several assumptions that are only that, assumptions.
You are not taking cost into account at any time. The cost and inconvenience of having to buy a monitor and keyboard/mouse to replace the ones that come with the laptop is a significant outlay. The cost for the non-existent dock will be high as well. We will be paying for a Mac Pro without the advantages. Not cost effective for most.
Who is going to buy this 20" monstrosity? It will, by itself, cost as much as a top of the line Mac Pro.
Your situation is different. Your company is a developer, from what you say, and so they are heavily invested. Very few companies will go that far. Schools will not even think on it, and the individual consumer doesn't even know what you're talking about. Apple is the only computer company that has attempted some mass appeal that doesn't have a desirable line of desktops that costs less than the cheapest laptop, and in addition, is more expandable.
While it's true that most all companies that produce both laptops and desktops have seen a move to laptops, Apple sales are out of sync with the rest of the industry. By that I mean that Apple sells a greater percentage of laptops to desktops than most other computer companies.
That's not because its laptops are so much better, but because its desktop choices are so much worse.
And, by the way, if you want to talk about current product lines, and want to dismiss a mini tower which could help turn this situation around, then you can't mention the also non-existent dock, the extreme unpopularity of which you failed to address.
Would a little be like a $100? Also thx 4 the welcome
If the price comes down at all, it'll be $100. I wouldn't be surprised it it went up by as much either (provided there were features that justified it).
My iMac price prediction:
daydream: 20" at current 17" price, 24" at current 20" price
I’ve been listening to you guys argue throughout this thread, and I’m mystified. I’m probably too dense or something. I don’t understand why some users prefer laptops. Where do they use them? Driving to work? At Starbucks? Sitting in the park? Bouncing around on a commuter train? Do they take them on trips or on vacation?
I’ve taught at a local college for over 18 years, know many faculty and staff, and know only one who has a laptop – and it’s a very old one.- the laptop, not the professor.
All the IT’s have a desktop at home and use desktops at work. The IT’s who had had them have given up laptops and now carry a USB drive back and forth to work. I had lunch today with two Engineering and Computer Department PHD’s from Florida International Univ. Our discussions revolved around desktops and workstations. Neither of them would consider a laptop.
I bought a laptop (PC) a bunch of years ago. With all the paraphernalia, sleeves, and such, I might as well have been toting around a desktop. Opening and closing it with all those accoutrements was sheer agony. I hated the keyboard and the small screen. I was not productive at all. (I now have two 22" displays and find that's minimal.)
That PC lasted me four weeks before I gave it to my daughter. She used it for a few months, dropped it, and that was the end of the laptop. We never even considered getting it repaired.
That long-dreamed-of product, the solid-state laptop, is one step closer to reality, as Samsung is showing off a flash-powered laptop at CeBIT. The demo box uses a 32GB 1.8-inch solid-state drive created by Samsung, to show off the company's flash chops. Unfortunately, at $30 per gigabyte, the 32GB drive would cost over $900. However, with flash prices continuing to decline, and companies like Intel predicting that flash laptops are on their way, we may not have to wait too much longer for this to be feasible -- though, even at over $900, that flash laptop drive sounds mighty tempting.
Why should this memory cost anything really? There was a time (when I was in high school?) when 32KB RAM cost $900. There will be a time when 32TB costs $32. It's just silicon, which is the most plentiful substance in the crust of the earth.
My Tuesday Dream List. (My dream because it would shut up 1/2 the people that cry about it)
The wait is over. Apple addresses the hole in it's desktop line and presents three products.
Low end - New Mac Mini
Mid range - New iMac
Semi Pro - Mac Semi Pro mid tower.
That would be a cool tuesday. Even though I'm waiting for a New workstation, I still like to see Apple announce new things.
My daughter wants a new machine. She wants a tower again. Whether I want to buy her a Mac Pro is something I haven't decided yet. She wants the upgradability.
But, if a mini or mid tower came out, that would solve the problem.
I don?t understand why some users prefer laptops. Where do they use them? Driving to work? At Starbucks? Sitting in the park? Bouncing around on a commuter train?
Heh... where to start?
Let's say you do any of the following:
- Attend a lot of conferences and conventions
- Travel a lot
- Go to a lot of business meetings
- Like using your computer in any room in the house
When I worked at an office, I carried my PowerBook to work every day. That way I could have all my data with me, and I could use programs I only had installed on my PowerBook. I could also carry lots of data back and forth easily.
When I went to friends' houses, I could bring my computer to show and share pictures and movies.
And yes, I took the PowerBook to the coffee shop as well.
None of these strike me as bizarre or pretentious uses of technology. Sure, they could all be circumvented by some combination of flash drives, notepads, memo recorders, and shrugging of shoulders, but... why?
Comments
I'm thinking we'll get a new iMac (with optional Blu Ray burner), updated Mac mini, iLife (with Blu Ray compatible iDVD) and iWork '08, and a big ol' update to .Mac (remember that us early adopters are set to renew in the next couple of months and they want to give us incentives to buy again)
I am sticking with my belief that SJ said iLife would be part of Leopard.
anyways thats my idea.
I am sticking with my belief that SJ said iLife would be part of Leopard.
What are you basing this on? If you mean the "complete package" speech at WWDC 2006, the only software Steve mentioned as part of Leopard's "complete package" is Boot Camp, Front Row, and Photo Booth.
You might think he implied that iLife would be included, but that's not the same as saying it, and the implication is pretty slight in itself.
What are you basing this on? If you mean the "complete package" speech at WWDC 2006, the only software Steve mentioned as part of Leopard's "complete package" is Boot Camp, Front Row, and Photo Booth.
You might think he implied that iLife would be included, but that's not the same as saying it, and the implication is pretty slight in itself.
he mentioned iLife at one point and it sounded like he said it was part of leopard. I am not the only one that assumed this.
I mean, he mentioned Yosemite National Park, too, and even showed pictures, but I'm not expecting a deed to the park in my copy of Leopard.
It doesn't have to be an imac as long as it isn't a portable.
The iMac is not an overwhelming desktop.
The last thing I, and many others apparently want on our desks are laptops with bigger monitors plugged in, and desktop keyboards.
Is that what you have in your work environment?
I have a Mac Pro and a MBP because of some of the work I do but I could easily live with a slightly beefed up MBP from the current santa rosas. With a Condor GRID in place and the ability to RDP to the big iron in the IT department where I can get a virtual machine with far more compute cycles than my Mac Pro and you're unchained from a desktop except when your UI requirements exceed what you can get from a mobile unit.
Most folks here do have a laptop vs a desktop now. They don't need much CPU for stuff and a laptop lets them work from home.
Your saying so doesn't make it so. There will be about 100 million desktops sold this year. Why is that? Every person and organization could have bought laptops instead, but they didn't.
Of that 100M only 2.4M were Mac desktops. While I don't think the iMac is going away it doesn't mean its critical to the lineup.
There are more and more folks getting laptops instead of desktops. I don't think that trend is disputed. That holds within the Apple demographic as well.
Given that Apple tends to be forward thinking and our demographic is loyal and also forward thinking I could see Apple moving toward a mobile/semi-mobile only lineup.
I still wouldn't want a 20" MBP. I want a 22", or 24", or a 30". What now? You have, again, to go buy that extra monitor.
Two really unless you get the 30". However since Apple's demographic trends toward the upper end of the market, cost is not as significant a factor any more than it is for any other luxury/premium brand.
And you assume that people like portable keyboards. Many people don't.
Apple too judging by the recent keyboard design. In any case there are these things called USB ports...and I did say that an iDock would be a requirement for much easier attachment to displays and input devices before losing the iMac line is feasible.
Again, I'm not saying it must be an iMac. For all I care, Apple could just keep the 24" in the line for general purchase, and sell the 20" to schools.
Sure, get rid of the Mini. But replace them with something else, such as that mini tower.
Given there no mini-tower at the moment that seems unlikely and we're talking about whether Apple can meet the needs of its market segments with an all mobile lineup.
There is a trend to laptops and away from computer labs in schools. The MB seems a reasonable replacement for the iMac.
I agree that your combo would do everything. But, my above comments show where I don't think it would go down big with the large desktop buying groups. I know you disagree.
The large desktop buying group that is 1/3 the size of the folks buying laptops in Apple's lineup?
What I meant was that without the desktops in the line, and at the time we were discussing this earlier, I assumed that you were also classifying the Mac Pro in that catagory, there wouldn't be much "pull' toward the laptops without the high profile businesses.
Without them, high end software development would come to an abrupt halt.
Without the Mac Pro and the xServe that would certainly be true.
since you are excluding the workstations from that equation, the situation would be a bit different, but not totally.
Find me a pro user that would prefer an iMac vs a MBP with an iDock.
You misunderstood me. I'm talking about between desktop machines and laptops, not MB's and MBP's. Though people do say that the MBP keyboard is better, as are the screens.
I apologize, I said MP rather than spelling it out as Mac Pro. There is no ergonomic difference between my Mac Pro and my MBP as I used the same keyboard and 30" ACD with both. The MBP is currently on a 24" monitor at the moment.
See, and you DO need to buy an extra (as apart from what comes with the laptop) monitor and keyboard. Extra room and expense.
Sure. Although an updated MB (with Santa Rosa) and 20" monitor isn't any more than a current 20" iMac. If priced with a 20" ACD + iDock for $1499 that wouldn't be any more expensive at the cost of dedicated graphics.
They would die for the reasons I gave. Apple simply can't continue a successful professional business with just the power and sophistication of laptops. There are things they do well, but there are things they aren't suited for.
Again, what can't a MBP do that an iMac can?
A dock would help. But, for most, it isn't a suitable replacement. They haven't proven themselves to be wildly popular. Apple had them. Few bought them.
In what context? There are few laptops in a business environment that I don't see coupled with a docking station in the office. As you say, there is an egonomic difference between laptops and desktops and a dock eliminates that difference.
Now it will always be a lower cost option to provide certain staff with desktops vs laptops with dock.
However for knowledge and creative workers the laptop is a more useful and cost effective solution in terms of how computers improve workflow and quality of life (important if you care about retention rates, productivity, etc) as opposed to absolute capital expenditure. It would always be cheaper to buy nothing.
I really don't understand why you would think that that would really be suitable as a replacement. It seems to be very clumsy to me. I know few people who would want to lug it around. And if it's going to permanently replace a desktop model, then there's no purpose to it at all.
It addresses the power user/prosumer segment that would wish to have a larger more capable machine at the expense of mobility. As folks here have stated there are pro and prosumers using Macs to capture raw HD. A 20" MBP with fast drives would be a good fit for many creative users that need power with a certain level of mobility but end up tethered once on site.
A NAS server can be, and is, used with desktop networks as well. I'm thinking of getting one myself for our network.
Vinea, this is a matter of viewpoints. The only way we'll see who is correct, is to wait five years and come back to it.
I suspect we'll have our boxing gloves on again.
While I don't see Apple abandoning the iMac in the next 5 years the fact remains that the iMac is essentially a low-mobility laptop. Apple has already abandoned the traditional desktop market with only AIOs, SFF and workstations.
That ship has sailed.
While I don't expect a full transition to just mobile products that there is a company (Toshiba) shipping more units than Apple that only has mobile products coupled with Apple's current product line and that I've shown that every major Apple market segment can be met with a mobility or CE product I think I've made the case that Apple COULD go that way without going out of business.
Not that it WILL...just that it COULD.
I will make you a 5 year bet though: In 5 years Apple will have one traditional laptop left in their lineup and it will fill the same role as the Mac Pro does in its current line up.
Everything else will be UMPCs (done correctly), phones and multitouch tablets (slates most likely). In 5 years only the very top end laptops (like current day workstations) will command 28% margins. Like with the desktops Apple will have unique mobile form factors and abandon the traditional laptop form factor.
If there is to be a successful tablet it will be made by Apple...just like the only successful AIO it is being made by Apple.
Apple's investment in OSX allows this and it is an ADVANTAGE to going all mobile or going offbeat form factor not a hindrance. Without OSX the iMac would sell about as well as Sony's AIO. Sucky.
Vinea
Operative word being 'assumed'...
I mean, he mentioned Yosemite National Park, too, and even showed pictures, but I'm not expecting a deed to the park in my copy of Leopard.
I saw the quote in here once before, but I don't have it now. It's ra easonable assumption if you see it.
An ultra-portable with flash memory would be awesome!
Agreed! Apple needs to give the 2.7 lb. ThinkPad x61 a run for its money - and flash memory bootup would be a big step in the right direction (along with better screen, match the ThinkPad battery life, make it less than 3 lbs., built-in wifi/bluetooth/wan).http://forums.appleinsider.com/image...s/1biggrin.gif
Also hope all the rumors are wrong and that they resurrect the mac mini (updated, of course). There's a need for a product from Apple in that performance/price slot - and I want one (or two).
Agreed! Apple needs to give the 2.7 lb. ThinkPad x61 a run for its money - and flash memory bootup would be a big step in the right direction (along with better screen, match the ThinkPad battery life, make it less than 3 lbs., built-in wifi/bluetooth/wan).http://forums.appleinsider.com/image...s/1biggrin.gif
Also hope all the rumors are wrong and that they resurrect the mac mini (updated, of course). There's a need for a product from Apple in that performance/price slot - and I want one (or two).
Samsung shows off flash laptop drive at CeBIT
That long-dreamed-of product, the solid-state laptop, is one step closer to reality, as Samsung is showing off a flash-powered laptop at CeBIT. The demo box uses a 32GB 1.8-inch solid-state drive created by Samsung, to show off the company's flash chops. Unfortunately, at $30 per gigabyte, the 32GB drive would cost over $900. However, with flash prices continuing to decline, and companies like Intel predicting that flash laptops are on their way, we may not have to wait too much longer for this to be feasible -- though, even at over $900, that flash laptop drive sounds mighty tempting.
Operative word being 'assumed'...
I mean, he mentioned Yosemite National Park, too, and even showed pictures, but I'm not expecting a deed to the park in my copy of Leopard.
Maybe a day trip?
Again, what can't a MBP do that an iMac can?
How bout a 7200 rpm hard drive that holds more than 160gb? How bout better cooling? True, a MBP could be a functional equivalent to an iMac, IF you are willing to turn it into one by purchasing 1.) a docking station 2.) a cinema display 3.) a separate keyboard and mouse (a small expenditure but still an extra step). Oh, and let's not forget that feature for feature (excluding mobility, of course) the iMac is far more cost-effective to the consumer. So to summarize, yes, you can make your MBP functionally equivalent to your desktop, provided you are willing to shell out the extra dough for a docking station, display, and keyboard and mouse.
As folks here have stated there are pro and prosumers using Macs to capture raw HD. A 20" MBP with fast drives would be a good fit for many creative users that need power with a certain level of mobility but end up tethered once on site.
First, 20"!? Isn't the point of a laptop mobility? I hardly think lugging around a 20" beast is mobile. Second, to suggest that the MBP out-of-box can serve as a replacement for a Mac Pro - the premier video editing machine - is just deslusional. You make a HUGE assumption in your rationale: "WITH FAST DRIVES." Sure, but those don't exist in laptops, not in large capacity anyway. The biggest internal hard drive available for the MBP is 250 gb, at 4200rpm! There is a 160gb option at 7200rpm, but that won't last long if you're capturing raw HD. Most video editing stations are equipped with at least 1TB of internal storage, and their hard drives are reading/writing data about 75 times faster than the largest MBP hard drive. No one in their right mind would use a MBP as their PRIMARY workstation to capture raw HD, at least not without a plethora of add ons (cinema, external hard drive, docking station).
While I don't see Apple abandoning the iMac in the next 5 years the fact remains that the iMac is essentially a low-mobility laptop.
See above. Dollar for dollar, feature for feature, the MBP is not a replacement for the iMac.
The iMac is not an overwhelming desktop.
I have a Mac Pro and a MBP because of some of the work I do but I could easily live with a slightly beefed up MBP from the current santa rosas. With a Condor GRID in place and the ability to RDP to the big iron in the IT department where I can get a virtual machine with far more compute cycles than my Mac Pro and you're unchained from a desktop except when your UI requirements exceed what you can get from a mobile unit.
Most folks here do have a laptop vs a desktop now. They don't need much CPU for stuff and a laptop lets them work from home.
Of that 100M only 2.4M were Mac desktops. While I don't think the iMac is going away it doesn't mean its critical to the lineup.
There are more and more folks getting laptops instead of desktops. I don't think that trend is disputed. That holds within the Apple demographic as well.
Given that Apple tends to be forward thinking and our demographic is loyal and also forward thinking I could see Apple moving toward a mobile/semi-mobile only lineup.
Two really unless you get the 30". However since Apple's demographic trends toward the upper end of the market, cost is not as significant a factor any more than it is for any other luxury/premium brand.
Apple too judging by the recent keyboard design. In any case there are these things called USB ports...and I did say that an iDock would be a requirement for much easier attachment to displays and input devices before losing the iMac line is feasible.
Given there no mini-tower at the moment that seems unlikely and we're talking about whether Apple can meet the needs of its market segments with an all mobile lineup.
There is a trend to laptops and away from computer labs in schools. The MB seems a reasonable replacement for the iMac.
The large desktop buying group that is 1/3 the size of the folks buying laptops in Apple's lineup?
Without the Mac Pro and the xServe that would certainly be true.
Find me a pro user that would prefer an iMac vs a MBP with an iDock.
I apologize, I said MP rather than spelling it out as Mac Pro. There is no ergonomic difference between my Mac Pro and my MBP as I used the same keyboard and 30" ACD with both. The MBP is currently on a 24" monitor at the moment.
Sure. Although an updated MB (with Santa Rosa) and 20" monitor isn't any more than a current 20" iMac. If priced with a 20" ACD + iDock for $1499 that wouldn't be any more expensive at the cost of dedicated graphics.
Again, what can't a MBP do that an iMac can?
In what context? There are few laptops in a business environment that I don't see coupled with a docking station in the office. As you say, there is an egonomic difference between laptops and desktops and a dock eliminates that difference.
Now it will always be a lower cost option to provide certain staff with desktops vs laptops with dock.
However for knowledge and creative workers the laptop is a more useful and cost effective solution in terms of how computers improve workflow and quality of life (important if you care about retention rates, productivity, etc) as opposed to absolute capital expenditure. It would always be cheaper to buy nothing.
It addresses the power user/prosumer segment that would wish to have a larger more capable machine at the expense of mobility. As folks here have stated there are pro and prosumers using Macs to capture raw HD. A 20" MBP with fast drives would be a good fit for many creative users that need power with a certain level of mobility but end up tethered once on site.
While I don't see Apple abandoning the iMac in the next 5 years the fact remains that the iMac is essentially a low-mobility laptop. Apple has already abandoned the traditional desktop market with only AIOs, SFF and workstations.
That ship has sailed.
While I don't expect a full transition to just mobile products that there is a company (Toshiba) shipping more units than Apple that only has mobile products coupled with Apple's current product line and that I've shown that every major Apple market segment can be met with a mobility or CE product I think I've made the case that Apple COULD go that way without going out of business.
Not that it WILL...just that it COULD.
I will make you a 5 year bet though: In 5 years Apple will have one traditional laptop left in their lineup and it will fill the same role as the Mac Pro does in its current line up.
Everything else will be UMPCs (done correctly), phones and multitouch tablets (slates most likely). In 5 years only the very top end laptops (like current day workstations) will command 28% margins. Like with the desktops Apple will have unique mobile form factors and abandon the traditional laptop form factor.
If there is to be a successful tablet it will be made by Apple...just like the only successful AIO it is being made by Apple.
Apple's investment in OSX allows this and it is an ADVANTAGE to going all mobile or going offbeat form factor not a hindrance. Without OSX the iMac would sell about as well as Sony's AIO. Sucky.
Vinea
Vinea, this is getting way too long.
I can't see a reason to respond to every point, because the detail isn't pertinent, and you are ignoring some of the points I've made in that you wash right over them.
But, to cut to the chase. You make several assumptions that are only that, assumptions.
You are not taking cost into account at any time. The cost and inconvenience of having to buy a monitor and keyboard/mouse to replace the ones that come with the laptop is a significant outlay. The cost for the non-existent dock will be high as well. We will be paying for a Mac Pro without the advantages. Not cost effective for most.
Who is going to buy this 20" monstrosity? It will, by itself, cost as much as a top of the line Mac Pro.
Your situation is different. Your company is a developer, from what you say, and so they are heavily invested. Very few companies will go that far. Schools will not even think on it, and the individual consumer doesn't even know what you're talking about. Apple is the only computer company that has attempted some mass appeal that doesn't have a desirable line of desktops that costs less than the cheapest laptop, and in addition, is more expandable.
While it's true that most all companies that produce both laptops and desktops have seen a move to laptops, Apple sales are out of sync with the rest of the industry. By that I mean that Apple sells a greater percentage of laptops to desktops than most other computer companies.
That's not because its laptops are so much better, but because its desktop choices are so much worse.
And, by the way, if you want to talk about current product lines, and want to dismiss a mini tower which could help turn this situation around, then you can't mention the also non-existent dock, the extreme unpopularity of which you failed to address.
The price might come down a little due to lower LCD/RAM prices, but I would not expect that big of a drop.
Welcome to AI!
Would a little be like a $100? Also thx 4 the welcome
The wait is over. Apple addresses the hole in it's desktop line and presents three products.
Low end - New Mac Mini
Mid range - New iMac
Semi Pro - Mac Semi Pro mid tower.
That would be a cool tuesday. Even though I'm waiting for a New workstation, I still like to see Apple announce new things.
Would a little be like a $100? Also thx 4 the welcome
If the price comes down at all, it'll be $100. I wouldn't be surprised it it went up by as much either (provided there were features that justified it).
My iMac price prediction:
daydream: 20" at current 17" price, 24" at current 20" price
optimistic expectation: same price as current
pessimistic prediction: $100 more than current
I’ve been listening to you guys argue throughout this thread, and I’m mystified. I’m probably too dense or something. I don’t understand why some users prefer laptops. Where do they use them? Driving to work? At Starbucks? Sitting in the park? Bouncing around on a commuter train? Do they take them on trips or on vacation?
I’ve taught at a local college for over 18 years, know many faculty and staff, and know only one who has a laptop – and it’s a very old one.- the laptop, not the professor.
All the IT’s have a desktop at home and use desktops at work. The IT’s who had had them have given up laptops and now carry a USB drive back and forth to work. I had lunch today with two Engineering and Computer Department PHD’s from Florida International Univ. Our discussions revolved around desktops and workstations. Neither of them would consider a laptop.
I bought a laptop (PC) a bunch of years ago. With all the paraphernalia, sleeves, and such, I might as well have been toting around a desktop. Opening and closing it with all those accoutrements was sheer agony. I hated the keyboard and the small screen. I was not productive at all. (I now have two 22" displays and find that's minimal.)
That PC lasted me four weeks before I gave it to my daughter. She used it for a few months, dropped it, and that was the end of the laptop. We never even considered getting it repaired.
Please set me straight. What am I missing?
Samsung shows off flash laptop drive at CeBIT
That long-dreamed-of product, the solid-state laptop, is one step closer to reality, as Samsung is showing off a flash-powered laptop at CeBIT. The demo box uses a 32GB 1.8-inch solid-state drive created by Samsung, to show off the company's flash chops. Unfortunately, at $30 per gigabyte, the 32GB drive would cost over $900. However, with flash prices continuing to decline, and companies like Intel predicting that flash laptops are on their way, we may not have to wait too much longer for this to be feasible -- though, even at over $900, that flash laptop drive sounds mighty tempting.
Why should this memory cost anything really? There was a time (when I was in high school?) when 32KB RAM cost $900. There will be a time when 32TB costs $32. It's just silicon, which is the most plentiful substance in the crust of the earth.
My Tuesday Dream List. (My dream because it would shut up 1/2 the people that cry about it)
The wait is over. Apple addresses the hole in it's desktop line and presents three products.
Low end - New Mac Mini
Mid range - New iMac
Semi Pro - Mac Semi Pro mid tower.
That would be a cool tuesday. Even though I'm waiting for a New workstation, I still like to see Apple announce new things.
My daughter wants a new machine. She wants a tower again. Whether I want to buy her a Mac Pro is something I haven't decided yet. She wants the upgradability.
But, if a mini or mid tower came out, that would solve the problem.
I don?t understand why some users prefer laptops. Where do they use them? Driving to work? At Starbucks? Sitting in the park? Bouncing around on a commuter train?
Heh... where to start?
Let's say you do any of the following:
- Attend a lot of conferences and conventions
- Travel a lot
- Go to a lot of business meetings
- Like using your computer in any room in the house
When I worked at an office, I carried my PowerBook to work every day. That way I could have all my data with me, and I could use programs I only had installed on my PowerBook. I could also carry lots of data back and forth easily.
When I went to friends' houses, I could bring my computer to show and share pictures and movies.
And yes, I took the PowerBook to the coffee shop as well.
None of these strike me as bizarre or pretentious uses of technology. Sure, they could all be circumvented by some combination of flash drives, notepads, memo recorders, and shrugging of shoulders, but... why?