I think new iMacs are pretty much certain but I hope for a 30th anniversary Mac that is somewhere along the lines of a cube come-back. After all, why have a whole press event for an iMac case redesign?
There has to be an announcement of some sort.
Mind you they had that silly media event for their Apple TV. If they keep building up hype for what amounts to very little, they are just going to ruin future events.
Apple holds press events to announce updates and new products because the timing of them is unpredictable and Apple wants us to get used to that. With Apple only announcing things at WWDC, MWSF, and NAB people stopped buying their designs in mid year because they would try to wait out the next revision. Apple put an end to the "Event announcement only" theory and has been using these press events more frequently for the past few years because of major mid term sales declines. Press events are not a direct indication of anything out of the ordinary.
One thing I don't get about the iMac is why it uses a laptop processor. I mean we're talking about a computer that has more space to work with than a lot of gaming notebooks that use desktop processors. Even a laptop like this one that uses a Core 2 Quad has far more restricted airflow and space than a properly designed iMac would. The same formfactor iMac that came before the mobile chips uses the G5 processor, which were never known for being particularly cold to the touch.
I really hope Apple decides to use desktop chips with this redesign opportunity. If they used desktop chips they could justify the iMac price if they ever introduce that expandable consumer Mac that everyone wants so dearly. I think it's safe to say that if they introduced a consumer tower [or minitower] now that used desktop chips, it would be a big threat to iMac sales. In overall strategy for the company, mobile chips don't make sense for the iMac. Hopefully Apple sees this too.
One thing I don't get about the iMac is why it uses a laptop processor. I mean we're talking about a computer that has more space to work with than a lot of gaming notebooks that use desktop processors. Even a laptop like this one that uses a Core 2 Quad has far more restricted airflow and space than a properly designed iMac would. The same formfactor iMac that came before the mobile chips uses the G5 processor, which were never known for being particularly cold to the touch.
I really hope Apple decides to use desktop chips with this redesign opportunity. If they used desktop chips they could justify the iMac price if they ever introduce that expandable consumer Mac that everyone wants so dearly. I think it's safe to say that if they introduced a consumer tower [or minitower] now that used desktop chips, it would be a big threat to iMac sales. In overall strategy for the company, mobile chips don't make sense for the iMac. Hopefully Apple sees this too.
Apple has couple of reasons to stay with the mobile version:
It seems that compact design and quiet operation are higher priority for SJ than raw performance. Personaly, I will vote for the quiet operation as well.
This keeps R&D lower - they use the same processor for a wide range of products.
On the other hand, it is important to note that the current design of the iMac was the one that carried Apple trough the Intel transition. May be back then they were pressed by their internal goals and decided to keep with one processor architecture. The mobile Core was also the first one to come out from Intel. Now things have changed.
However, the reports for a thinner and more compact design don't leave much space for hope...
Granted there are people, mostly travelers, who need a laptop, but I see a day coming when they will be made superfluous by other technology - maybe voice recorders, cellphones, iPhones, etc. Think how cool to connect to your home or office remotely and use applications by voice. I believe we're well on the way to that stage. We have all the equipment necessary, buuuuut maybe not yet perfected.
That long-dreamed-of product, the solid-state laptop, is one step closer to reality, as Samsung is showing off a flash-powered laptop at CeBIT. The demo box uses a 32GB 1.8-inch solid-state drive created by Samsung, to show off the company's flash chops. Unfortunately, at $30 per gigabyte, the 32GB drive would cost over $900. However, with flash prices continuing to decline, and companies like Intel predicting that flash laptops are on their way, we may not have to wait too much longer for this to be feasible -- though, even at over $900, that flash laptop drive sounds mighty tempting.
Except it isn't $900 but $600 and dropping to $300 (Pny and SanDisk).
Both Toshiba and Samsung have new 2Gb 60nm flash fabs which double flash density while reducing cost. Expect Apple to refresh nanos soon if they follow last year's pattern of releasing new product 3-4 months after Samsung went to mass production on the 1Gb flash.
How bout a 7200 rpm hard drive that holds more than 160gb?
eSATA via Expresscard. Can you do that with an iMac?
Quote:
How bout better cooling? True, a MBP could be a functional equivalent to an iMac, IF you are willing to turn it into one by purchasing 1.) a docking station 2.) a cinema display 3.) a separate keyboard and mouse (a small expenditure but still an extra step).
Given what I see with Dells I would say yes. If your knowledge workers have some need for mobility and little need for ultra high performance than a Santa Rosa Core 2 Duo is more than sufficient. The incremental cost of a display and keyboard is much less than either 2 desktops or a desktop and laptop.
Quote:
Oh, and let's not forget that feature for feature (excluding mobility, of course) the iMac is far more cost-effective to the consumer. So to summarize, yes, you can make your MBP functionally equivalent to your desktop, provided you are willing to shell out the extra dough for a docking station, display, and keyboard and mouse.
So? We're talking about the viability of Apple going totally mobile...not whether consumers would spend more or less money.
Quote:
First, 20"!? Isn't the point of a laptop mobility? I hardly think lugging around a 20" beast is mobile. Second, to suggest that the MBP out-of-box can serve as a replacement for a Mac Pro - the premier video editing machine - is just deslusional.
Delusional only because you choose to misread the post. Which part of "short of a Mac Pro" is confusing?
Quote:
You make a HUGE assumption in your rationale: "WITH FAST DRIVES." Sure, but those don't exist in laptops, not in large capacity anyway.
I would guess the Dell still uses the 2.5" drive. That's not a hard requirement of a notebook though of that size. Its more luggable than portable anyway and it is pretty much the size of an iMac.
Quote:
The biggest internal hard drive available for the MBP is 250 gb, at 4200rpm! There is a 160gb option at 7200rpm, but that won't last long if you're capturing raw HD. Most video editing stations are equipped with at least 1TB of internal storage, and their hard drives are reading/writing data about 75 times faster than the largest MBP hard drive. No one in their right mind would use a MBP as their PRIMARY workstation to capture raw HD, at least not without a plethora of add ons (cinema, external hard drive, docking station).
See above. Dollar for dollar, feature for feature, the MBP is not a replacement for the iMac.
Well dollar for dollar most PC solutions are far better than the iMac. So what? People say that Apple CANNOT live without the desktops (which I agree if you include the Mac Pro) but the iMac is not a live or die part of thier lineup.
I can't see a reason to respond to every point, because the detail isn't pertinent, and you are ignoring some of the points I've made in that you wash right over them.
The core of the argument is that you cannot replace the current desktop line with just notebooks (ignoring the Mac Pro for the moment). Given that the iMac is a piss poor desktop anyway and more of a notebook with really bad mobility everything else IS details.
Quote:
But, to cut to the chase. You make several assumptions that are only that, assumptions.
You are not taking cost into account at any time. The cost and inconvenience of having to buy a monitor and keyboard/mouse to replace the ones that come with the laptop is a significant outlay. The cost for the non-existent dock will be high as well. We will be paying for a Mac Pro without the advantages. Not cost effective for most.
Only if you accept the premise that mobility is not the trend for knowledge workers and folks have a need for a machine at the office, on the move and at home. The incremental costs of buying a monitor, dock and keyboard is far less than owning either two desktops or a desktop and a notebook.
Quote:
Who is going to buy this 20" monstrosity? It will, by itself, cost as much as a top of the line Mac Pro.
There's this WHOLE other thread about who would own a luggable desktop replacement. Go argue with them.
Your situation is different. Your company is a developer, from what you say, and so they are heavily invested. Very few companies will go that far. Schools will not even think on it, and the individual consumer doesn't even know what you're talking about. Apple is the only computer company that has attempted some mass appeal that doesn't have a desirable line of desktops that costs less than the cheapest laptop, and in addition, is more expandable.
My company is by no means a software development company. Its also very hard to argue that the massive growth in laptop sales is not a significant erosion of the desktop market and is occuring because people are replacing desktops with laptops.
That means that my experience is by no means unique and that the trend for the last few years has been in this direction. Assertions that desktops MUST be a requirement fly in the face of both that statistic and the fact that there IS a top 5 manufacturer with only mobility options.
Finally that Apple is the ONLY vendor is a plus when it comes to whether it can decide to go totally mobile. You really believe that the iMac serves people better than a mid-tower?
Quote:
While it's true that most all companies that produce both laptops and desktops have seen a move to laptops, Apple sales are out of sync with the rest of the industry. By that I mean that Apple sells a greater percentage of laptops to desktops than most other computer companies.
That's clearly false. Toshiba posted higher growth numbers than Apple. HP and Dell show far higher growth numbers in laptops than Apple and see the same trending toward laptops. It is only because HP and Dell sell into markets where cost is the defining factor (low end desktops) that you do not see the same 3-1 ratio.
Quote:
That's not because its laptops are so much better, but because its desktop choices are so much worse.
Laptops are now so much better than they were before that most tasks can be done with a laptop that used to REQUIRE a desktop.
Quote:
And, by the way, if you want to talk about current product lines, and want to dismiss a mini tower which could help turn this situation around, then you can't mention the also non-existent dock, the extreme unpopularity of which you failed to address.
So unpopular that every other manufacturer has one? If it is as unpopular as you say then Dell, HP, etc would have long ago abandoned them as unecessary.
In any case, the MBP CAN do most of what you need to day sans dock...its just annoying and a dock would be cheaper.
It would be interesting to see some numbers on the percentage of laptop owners who also have a desktop computer. I think a large number of users aren't deciding between one or the other, but combining the best of two worlds.
I would say that most wont bother with a desktop over time but just buy an extra keyboard, mouse and monitor.
If you did, you would see that in oder to make a laptop replace a desktop, even he is saying that, at the minimum, you will need to buy a keyboard and larger monitor. Then there is his non existent dock that you will need, and it goes on from there.
Oh for crying out loud. MB + 24" Dell + Logitech keyboard & mouse is far cheaper than the 24" iMac. The iMac is a lousy Bang for the Buck machine.
The primary thing the dock provides is one-click and built in drives. For 90% of the folks out there a NAS makes the dock less important. For most folks out there the fast drives of the iMac are NOT a requirement and for a large segment of the remainder they aren't fast enough (ie they want access to a RAID) anyway.
The inherent problem with any such docking solution is that you basically pay for a second LCD without ever being able to use two screens at the same time:
- with the MBP docked its internal screen is wasted.
- with the MBP taken out the docking station's screen is wasted.
Because a $100 panel is all that big a deal? 15" panel wastage isn't earth shattering.
Quote:
If on the other hand you attach a second LCD on the side you can use your MBP's internal LCD to extend your screen real estate.
Do you do this every day? I do and its annoying how many wires there are. On a Dell this task is trivial. Slide notebook in...done.
Quote:
The ideal docking station allows both screens to be active at the same time and doesn't require you to buy a second keyboard.
Not sure how such a thing would work physically though...
Just go look at the Dell docks. You CAN just flip the laptop open and use the LCD and keyboard but there's no point. If that's ALL you want then wireless network and a power cable is usually good enough.
Comments
I think new iMacs are pretty much certain but I hope for a 30th anniversary Mac that is somewhere along the lines of a cube come-back. After all, why have a whole press event for an iMac case redesign?
There has to be an announcement of some sort.
Mind you they had that silly media event for their Apple TV. If they keep building up hype for what amounts to very little, they are just going to ruin future events.
Apple holds press events to announce updates and new products because the timing of them is unpredictable and Apple wants us to get used to that. With Apple only announcing things at WWDC, MWSF, and NAB people stopped buying their designs in mid year because they would try to wait out the next revision. Apple put an end to the "Event announcement only" theory and has been using these press events more frequently for the past few years because of major mid term sales declines. Press events are not a direct indication of anything out of the ordinary.
Won't this be the 10th anniversary of the iMac? Don't you think Apple might update the iMac and celebrate it as the machine's 10th anniversary?
After all of those posts, ding ding ding ding ding...
After all of those posts, ding ding ding ding ding...
I am no Bob Barker, but you're wrong. The original iMac was released in August 1998, nine years ago. Thanks for playing!
"We" certainly don't need it... How many people on this board do you think are heavy Logic users?
Ever heard of tongue and cheek gonad?
Ever heard of tongue and cheek gonad?
No, I haven't. I've only heard of "tongue in cheek".
No, I haven't. I've only heard of "tongue in cheek".
so then that means you have heard of it and you were definitely being a jerkoff.
I really hope Apple decides to use desktop chips with this redesign opportunity. If they used desktop chips they could justify the iMac price if they ever introduce that expandable consumer Mac that everyone wants so dearly. I think it's safe to say that if they introduced a consumer tower [or minitower] now that used desktop chips, it would be a big threat to iMac sales. In overall strategy for the company, mobile chips don't make sense for the iMac. Hopefully Apple sees this too.
I am no Bob Barker, but you're wrong. The original iMac was released in August 1998, nine years ago. Thanks for playing!
Hahaha thanks. I'm new here, but it's fun being an Apple fan!
You mean this one:
Can't figure out how to quote images, but that transparent plastic keyboard mockup is way too cool! Transparent keyboard!! Yay!!
One thing I don't get about the iMac is why it uses a laptop processor. I mean we're talking about a computer that has more space to work with than a lot of gaming notebooks that use desktop processors. Even a laptop like this one that uses a Core 2 Quad has far more restricted airflow and space than a properly designed iMac would. The same formfactor iMac that came before the mobile chips uses the G5 processor, which were never known for being particularly cold to the touch.
I really hope Apple decides to use desktop chips with this redesign opportunity. If they used desktop chips they could justify the iMac price if they ever introduce that expandable consumer Mac that everyone wants so dearly. I think it's safe to say that if they introduced a consumer tower [or minitower] now that used desktop chips, it would be a big threat to iMac sales. In overall strategy for the company, mobile chips don't make sense for the iMac. Hopefully Apple sees this too.
Apple has couple of reasons to stay with the mobile version:
- It seems that compact design and quiet operation are higher priority for SJ than raw performance. Personaly, I will vote for the quiet operation as well.
- This keeps R&D lower - they use the same processor for a wide range of products.
On the other hand, it is important to note that the current design of the iMac was the one that carried Apple trough the Intel transition. May be back then they were pressed by their internal goals and decided to keep with one processor architecture. The mobile Core was also the first one to come out from Intel. Now things have changed.However, the reports for a thinner and more compact design don't leave much space for hope...
One thing I don't get about the iMac is why it uses a laptop processor.
iMac = form over function.
A situation that most iMac users don't seem to mind.
You could also argue that:
Mac Pro = function over form.
Granted there are people, mostly travelers, who need a laptop, but I see a day coming when they will be made superfluous by other technology - maybe voice recorders, cellphones, iPhones, etc. Think how cool to connect to your home or office remotely and use applications by voice. I believe we're well on the way to that stage. We have all the equipment necessary, buuuuut maybe not yet perfected.
Maybe not 'by voice', but this;
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...threadid=76811
could go a long way to making laptops superfluous
Samsung shows off flash laptop drive at CeBIT
That long-dreamed-of product, the solid-state laptop, is one step closer to reality, as Samsung is showing off a flash-powered laptop at CeBIT. The demo box uses a 32GB 1.8-inch solid-state drive created by Samsung, to show off the company's flash chops. Unfortunately, at $30 per gigabyte, the 32GB drive would cost over $900. However, with flash prices continuing to decline, and companies like Intel predicting that flash laptops are on their way, we may not have to wait too much longer for this to be feasible -- though, even at over $900, that flash laptop drive sounds mighty tempting.
Except it isn't $900 but $600 and dropping to $300 (Pny and SanDisk).
http://crunchgear.com/2007/06/04/pny...-worth-buying/
Both Toshiba and Samsung have new 2Gb 60nm flash fabs which double flash density while reducing cost. Expect Apple to refresh nanos soon if they follow last year's pattern of releasing new product 3-4 months after Samsung went to mass production on the 1Gb flash.
Vinea
How bout a 7200 rpm hard drive that holds more than 160gb?
eSATA via Expresscard. Can you do that with an iMac?
How bout better cooling? True, a MBP could be a functional equivalent to an iMac, IF you are willing to turn it into one by purchasing 1.) a docking station 2.) a cinema display 3.) a separate keyboard and mouse (a small expenditure but still an extra step).
Given what I see with Dells I would say yes. If your knowledge workers have some need for mobility and little need for ultra high performance than a Santa Rosa Core 2 Duo is more than sufficient. The incremental cost of a display and keyboard is much less than either 2 desktops or a desktop and laptop.
Oh, and let's not forget that feature for feature (excluding mobility, of course) the iMac is far more cost-effective to the consumer. So to summarize, yes, you can make your MBP functionally equivalent to your desktop, provided you are willing to shell out the extra dough for a docking station, display, and keyboard and mouse.
So? We're talking about the viability of Apple going totally mobile...not whether consumers would spend more or less money.
First, 20"!? Isn't the point of a laptop mobility? I hardly think lugging around a 20" beast is mobile. Second, to suggest that the MBP out-of-box can serve as a replacement for a Mac Pro - the premier video editing machine - is just deslusional.
Delusional only because you choose to misread the post. Which part of "short of a Mac Pro" is confusing?
You make a HUGE assumption in your rationale: "WITH FAST DRIVES." Sure, but those don't exist in laptops, not in large capacity anyway.
I would guess the Dell still uses the 2.5" drive. That's not a hard requirement of a notebook though of that size. Its more luggable than portable anyway and it is pretty much the size of an iMac.
The biggest internal hard drive available for the MBP is 250 gb, at 4200rpm! There is a 160gb option at 7200rpm, but that won't last long if you're capturing raw HD. Most video editing stations are equipped with at least 1TB of internal storage, and their hard drives are reading/writing data about 75 times faster than the largest MBP hard drive. No one in their right mind would use a MBP as their PRIMARY workstation to capture raw HD, at least not without a plethora of add ons (cinema, external hard drive, docking station).
See above. Dollar for dollar, feature for feature, the MBP is not a replacement for the iMac.
Well dollar for dollar most PC solutions are far better than the iMac. So what? People say that Apple CANNOT live without the desktops (which I agree if you include the Mac Pro) but the iMac is not a live or die part of thier lineup.
Vinea
http://www.apple.com/ca/press/1999/01/iMac_Sales.html
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2001/apr/19imac.html
Desktops are up:
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...ence_call.html
I think the iMac is a core part of Apple's overall business.
Vinea, this is getting way too long.
I can't see a reason to respond to every point, because the detail isn't pertinent, and you are ignoring some of the points I've made in that you wash right over them.
The core of the argument is that you cannot replace the current desktop line with just notebooks (ignoring the Mac Pro for the moment). Given that the iMac is a piss poor desktop anyway and more of a notebook with really bad mobility everything else IS details.
But, to cut to the chase. You make several assumptions that are only that, assumptions.
You are not taking cost into account at any time. The cost and inconvenience of having to buy a monitor and keyboard/mouse to replace the ones that come with the laptop is a significant outlay. The cost for the non-existent dock will be high as well. We will be paying for a Mac Pro without the advantages. Not cost effective for most.
Only if you accept the premise that mobility is not the trend for knowledge workers and folks have a need for a machine at the office, on the move and at home. The incremental costs of buying a monitor, dock and keyboard is far less than owning either two desktops or a desktop and a notebook.
Who is going to buy this 20" monstrosity? It will, by itself, cost as much as a top of the line Mac Pro.
There's this WHOLE other thread about who would own a luggable desktop replacement. Go argue with them.
Edit: http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...ght=robust+MBP
Your situation is different. Your company is a developer, from what you say, and so they are heavily invested. Very few companies will go that far. Schools will not even think on it, and the individual consumer doesn't even know what you're talking about. Apple is the only computer company that has attempted some mass appeal that doesn't have a desirable line of desktops that costs less than the cheapest laptop, and in addition, is more expandable.
My company is by no means a software development company. Its also very hard to argue that the massive growth in laptop sales is not a significant erosion of the desktop market and is occuring because people are replacing desktops with laptops.
That means that my experience is by no means unique and that the trend for the last few years has been in this direction. Assertions that desktops MUST be a requirement fly in the face of both that statistic and the fact that there IS a top 5 manufacturer with only mobility options.
Finally that Apple is the ONLY vendor is a plus when it comes to whether it can decide to go totally mobile. You really believe that the iMac serves people better than a mid-tower?
While it's true that most all companies that produce both laptops and desktops have seen a move to laptops, Apple sales are out of sync with the rest of the industry. By that I mean that Apple sells a greater percentage of laptops to desktops than most other computer companies.
That's clearly false. Toshiba posted higher growth numbers than Apple. HP and Dell show far higher growth numbers in laptops than Apple and see the same trending toward laptops. It is only because HP and Dell sell into markets where cost is the defining factor (low end desktops) that you do not see the same 3-1 ratio.
That's not because its laptops are so much better, but because its desktop choices are so much worse.
Laptops are now so much better than they were before that most tasks can be done with a laptop that used to REQUIRE a desktop.
And, by the way, if you want to talk about current product lines, and want to dismiss a mini tower which could help turn this situation around, then you can't mention the also non-existent dock, the extreme unpopularity of which you failed to address.
So unpopular that every other manufacturer has one? If it is as unpopular as you say then Dell, HP, etc would have long ago abandoned them as unecessary.
In any case, the MBP CAN do most of what you need to day sans dock...its just annoying and a dock would be cheaper.
Vinea
It would be interesting to see some numbers on the percentage of laptop owners who also have a desktop computer. I think a large number of users aren't deciding between one or the other, but combining the best of two worlds.
I would say that most wont bother with a desktop over time but just buy an extra keyboard, mouse and monitor.
did you read his posts?
If you did, you would see that in oder to make a laptop replace a desktop, even he is saying that, at the minimum, you will need to buy a keyboard and larger monitor. Then there is his non existent dock that you will need, and it goes on from there.
Oh for crying out loud. MB + 24" Dell + Logitech keyboard & mouse is far cheaper than the 24" iMac. The iMac is a lousy Bang for the Buck machine.
The primary thing the dock provides is one-click and built in drives. For 90% of the folks out there a NAS makes the dock less important. For most folks out there the fast drives of the iMac are NOT a requirement and for a large segment of the remainder they aren't fast enough (ie they want access to a RAID) anyway.
Vinea
The inherent problem with any such docking solution is that you basically pay for a second LCD without ever being able to use two screens at the same time:
- with the MBP docked its internal screen is wasted.
- with the MBP taken out the docking station's screen is wasted.
Because a $100 panel is all that big a deal? 15" panel wastage isn't earth shattering.
If on the other hand you attach a second LCD on the side you can use your MBP's internal LCD to extend your screen real estate.
Do you do this every day? I do and its annoying how many wires there are. On a Dell this task is trivial. Slide notebook in...done.
The ideal docking station allows both screens to be active at the same time and doesn't require you to buy a second keyboard.
Not sure how such a thing would work physically though...
Just go look at the Dell docks. You CAN just flip the laptop open and use the LCD and keyboard but there's no point. If that's ALL you want then wireless network and a power cable is usually good enough.
Vinea