This is already possible with Leopard since the first build including TM.
That's good to hear. I've only heard one report that said you needed an external HD. (Which would have made it useless most of the time for about 1/3 of their hardware line...ie laptops)
Perhaps a better understanding of the subject is in order.
I think what many people want from Time Machine is version control, rather than backup. If you look at it in that way, it makes a lot of sense for it to work on a single disk. They want 'backup' in the sense of if they accidentally delete something, rather than to recover from hardware failure.
I think what many people want from Time Machine is version control, rather than backup. If you look at it in that way, it makes a lot of sense for it to work on a single disk. They want 'backup' in the sense of if they accidentally delete something, rather than to recover from hardware failure.
Amorya
That's kinda the way I see it too. I would like to use it that way and continue to clone my hard drive to an external HDD with super duper.
While this release has some new "cool" apps, the real stuff is under the hood. 10.5 is a HUGE release and really sets the foundation. Most of the bugs are do to the many many new frame works, the "core' features.
They are squashing bugs left and right and fixing the new ones as they pop up. From what I know Apple hasn't cut out anything and there are only a couple of important apps still giving the engineers some grief (as of last week). Besides that there is lots of work but they are cruzzing. That being said 10.5 could be pretty buggy.
I have read all replies to the original post. Many in the forum noted that some features (if not all of them) have been implemented on an OS or the other some years ago.
What I would like to know is the following:
What do you think Leopard SHOULD HAVE THAT IT DOESN'T?
I think this would turn out to be a much more interesting topic instead of people pointing out what is not new and where it can be found.
As a footnote I would like to add that Apple is not only known for adding new features, but also (and more importantly so, at least for me) to MAKE THEM ACTUALLY STABLE AND USABLE.
I am happy with the mentioned features in Leopard, not because they are some voodoo that no one ever thought about, but because I will actually be able to use them (opposed to other OSs in which, if you scratch the surface, you have to be an advanced user...)
I am knowledgeable in computers, but I am by no means a "ultra power user". I like features that can be used and that help my workflow. (this is the main reason why I bought a MacBook and not some available alternative).
Ok..
What do I think Leopard should have?
1) Better management of external HD (in order to allow me to use softwares (such as iLife) using data stored on an external HD).
2) Time Machine that doesn't need an external HD (if I want, why not partition the HD in my computer and use that?). Or at least an "on the road temporary time machine" which then stores the backup data in my external HD once I am home and everything is set up.
Other tools, as a touch screen computer (or a bigger "mousing surface with touch screen functions") need much more time to implement and a lot of user teaching. But I would defenitely like to see a computer equipped with a more "tactile" interface compared to the current ones (preferably not using the screen as a surface, but part of the keyboard space).
What do you think?
A number of those features weren't actually on the older OS. Features that were somewhat similar, but implemented quite differently were there.
OS X has, at least from ver 10.1, been far stabler in the broadest sense than any of the older System versions earlier, such as 6, 7, 8, and 9.
Everything must be understood within this context.
While I've also complained that backups should be allowed on a separate partition of the startup drive, it's only because some people won't buy another drive for backup no matter what you tell them, or how many times they crash and lose setups and data.
However, from Apple's viewpoint, there is the not so little matter of liability. If the startup drive fails, and all backups are lost, then Apple will be subject to another lawsuit. they will say that Apple knew that it wasn't safe to backup on the same drive.
Listen folks, no operating system upgrade or otherwise is going to live up to the lofty expectations set forth by it's eager fans.
Whether you think the feature set in Leopard could've been better or not, it all boils down to this: is Leopard so bad that you've decided to switch to or continue using Windows, Linux, or any other OS out there?
For me, it's still OS X. And it's the latest and greatest version of OS X yet.
Apple has a problem.
In order to take customers away from the PC industry, it must be like Caesar's wife, more virtuous than everyone else.
If Apple, and its products, software, or hardware, are seen as being no better than what people are using now, Apple's expansion will come to an end.
So will the renaissance in third party hardware and software development.
While the feature set is fine, it must be more stable than Windows for Apple and its supporters to point to it as a viable alternative.
Apple should resist the tug towards release if any outstanding problems aren't resolved.
This is the greatest time in Apple's lifetime as a company to make it back to 10% of the US market, and possibly even significantly greater share, as well as a decent share across the world.
Linux is in turmoil, with the developers of the major distros having no clear path ahead, with their teams in disarray, and the OSes being a couple of years behind schedule.
MS's release is, even in the PC industry, being declared as lame?at best.
But, if Apple rushes product out the door, the window will close, and this time, it will likely be forever.
Wonder what they cut out. No way it goes from being as buggy as people were saying to very stable from what people are initially reporting this fast without cutting stuff out.
Its just not a question of what they cut out, but also what gets only 'half-done'. Places where the 'feature' is there, but its not configurable (or has no UI at all). I recall the initial implementation of fax capability was laughable at best, an incredibly difficult thing to manage and debug. Or take spotlight. I think a lot of people will agree that there's a lot left to be done with it, and hoping apple makes major improvements to this feature (even if one of those improvements is a switch in the control panel to turn the blasted thing off if you don't want it).
Its just not a question of what they cut out, but also what gets only 'half-done'. Places where the 'feature' is there, but its not configurable (or has no UI at all). I recall the initial implementation of fax capability was laughable at best, an incredibly difficult thing to manage and debug. Or take spotlight. I think a lot of people will agree that there's a lot left to be done with it, and hoping apple makes major improvements to this feature (even if one of those improvements is a switch in the control panel to turn the blasted thing off if you don't want it).
Let us not forget Quartz 2D Extreme.
That was promised as a feature in 10.4, but even two and a half years later, it hasn't made it.
I'm hoping that doesn't happen again. Apple can't afford to duplicate MS's bailing out the ship.
Kind of a contradictory statement isn't it? I mean, if you wouldn't use it in day to day use, doesn't that imply serious issues?
Nope, I don't think anyone would want to rely on beta software, especially an OS. It's like if you had a beta of say Indesign and it regularly crashed after 4 hours of use. Some people would say it has a serious problem but in the end, it's still usable and the bugs could easily be fairly minor but people wouldn't rely on it.
Contrast Leopard with Vista where even about 8 months after release, some people's peripherals don't work and that's a final release. I'd say that for Leopard being at a beta stage, it is looking pretty good.
If there is such a vast improvement after such a quick update then the bugs have to be minor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
Let us not forget Quartz 2D Extreme.
That was promised as a feature in 10.4, but even two and a half years later, it hasn't made it.
Yeah but it looks like they are using EGL, which could be a replacement for that:
I think what many people want from Time Machine is version control, rather than backup. If you look at it in that way, it makes a lot of sense for it to work on a single disk. They want 'backup' in the sense of if they accidentally delete something, rather than to recover from hardware failure.
Amorya
Kind like the previous versions option in Windows or the ability to easily rollback to an older driver if the new one sucks. Seems like all the features you guys want are and have been in Windows.
Kind like the previous versions option in Windows or the ability to easily rollback to an older driver if the new one sucks. Seems like all the features you guys want are and have been in Windows.
See aegisdesign's post. It's not a question of whether something vaguely related to the features exists or not (on OS 9, UNIX, Windows, Linux, Xerox ALTO, whatever). It's a question of implementation and usability. If you don't understand (or value) this, then you probably shouldn't bother using a Mac. (assuming you're not just a troll, which is probably a bad assumption to make)
sorry. but please appleinsider remove those utterly stupid adverts !
i mean everybody knows that these ads are not serious ! Please do yourself and me a favour and get rid of them.
thank's
Unfortunately they pay for this site and I suspect AI don't have fine control over what is shown. (I often see Crucial advertising more RAM for Vista machines for example). Using only Safari's pop-up blocker is sufficent to get rid of the most annoying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by city
Don't new products come out on Fridays? That would be October 26, if there were refering to 2007.
Tuesdays are traditional for Apple to release new products.
According to their own site, it's not for OS X. At least not being stated as such.
There's an EGL framework in the Leopard system that wasn't in Tiger and it contains OpenGL code so it looks to be one and the same.
"EGL can be implemented on multiple operating systems (such as Symbian, embedded Linux, Unix, and Windows)"
OS X is a unix system so it can be easily ported to it.
"OpenVG? is a royalty-free, cross-platform API that provides a low-level hardware acceleration interface for vector graphics libraries such as Flash and SVG. OpenVG is targeted primarily at handheld devices that require portable acceleration of high-quality vector graphics for compelling user interfaces and text on small screen devices - while enabling hardware acceleration to provide fluidly interactive performance at very low power levels."
Leopard definitely achieves fluidity with minimal resource usage. PDF scrolling is smooth as butter as is coverflow and Apple needed fast rendering of vector graphics for their resolution independent interface.
I noticed that there were lots of mentions about portable devices on the EGL site, which would suggest it was possibly used on the iphone but the OS X 86 project people don't mention EGL in the list of iphone frameworks.
Whatever they're using in Leopard, it's quite clear that 2D rendering is vastly improved so if they haven't implemented QD2D Extreme, it's not necessary.
Spaces - I first used something like that on an AT&T 3B2 in 1986. The remnants of that are in OSX in the UNIX 'screen' command already - try it. Then we got UNIX terminals with X Windows and a virtual screen manager.
No. You used Virtual Desktops in their crude X-Windows form way back when. Spaces is an evolution of VD that has that NeXT flare which NeXTSTEP the visual envy of X-Windows wanting Display Postscript and all that WindowServer.app was way back when.
Time Machine - Mac has rsync and tar already or even 'Make Archive' in the Finder, Windows has had a backup program since DOS's BACKUP program in DOS 1.0.
Time Machine is not rsync
Screen Sharing - Apple Remote Desktop first released in the Mac OS 8 days. Or try VNC.
NXHost was around before VNC and obviously ARD. ARD is the more feature rich child.
Stacks - a reimplementation of sprung tab windows in MacOS8
No. Stacks today is definitely not a reimplementation.
Downloads folder - it's just a folder!
[b]Even a Folder is a special file. The point is how you make your interface extend functionality and ease-of-use. The wheel is old news but has evolved.
Quick Look - Used to be called Quick View in Windows NT 3.1
Quick View in NT most certainly isn't Quick Look. Don't compare a Bitmap screen dump window Server in NT 3.1 to Display PDF and hardware accelerated OpenGL 2 with shader language 1.2 from CoreAnimation that via Delegated Services allows one to run a small footprint of a Cocoa application to view the contents of various filetypes only limited by how open their specs are to Apple. If Apple provides an public API for Quick Look expect third parties to extend services to this tool.
The point I'm making is that each of these is nothing new if you just look at a feature comparison chart, it's how they are done that is important and that's usually where Apple totally wins - Implementation detail.
The Spreadsheet was originally just a MxN Matrix from Linear Algebra. It's how you leverage the tools that make them reinvented.
Comments
I am knowledgeable in computers,…Time Machine that doesn't need an external HD (if I want, why not partition the HD in my computer and use that?).
So many reasons, e.g.,
• For all the reasons one backs up in the first place
• Required disk space more than doubles
• Like hiring a fox to guard a henhouse
Perhaps a better understanding of the subject is in order.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backup
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Ma...%28software%29
http://arstechnica.com/staff/fatbits...006/08/15/4995
And of course Apple's own sites
10.5 on 10.5.
I can already see all the marketing posters.
This is already possible with Leopard since the first build including TM.
That's good to hear. I've only heard one report that said you needed an external HD. (Which would have made it useless most of the time for about 1/3 of their hardware line...ie laptops)
Perhaps a better understanding of the subject is in order.
I think what many people want from Time Machine is version control, rather than backup. If you look at it in that way, it makes a lot of sense for it to work on a single disk. They want 'backup' in the sense of if they accidentally delete something, rather than to recover from hardware failure.
Amorya
I think what many people want from Time Machine is version control, rather than backup. If you look at it in that way, it makes a lot of sense for it to work on a single disk. They want 'backup' in the sense of if they accidentally delete something, rather than to recover from hardware failure.
Amorya
That's kinda the way I see it too. I would like to use it that way and continue to clone my hard drive to an external HDD with super duper.
They are squashing bugs left and right and fixing the new ones as they pop up. From what I know Apple hasn't cut out anything and there are only a couple of important apps still giving the engineers some grief (as of last week). Besides that there is lots of work but they are cruzzing. That being said 10.5 could be pretty buggy.
YOU ARE THE 100'000th VISITOR, BLA BLA
sorry. but please appleinsider remove those utterly stupid adverts !
i mean everybody knows that these ads are not serious ! Please do yourself and me a favour and get rid of them.
thank's
And you're going to make up the lost income for this FREE site by doing what?
I have read all replies to the original post. Many in the forum noted that some features (if not all of them) have been implemented on an OS or the other some years ago.
What I would like to know is the following:
What do you think Leopard SHOULD HAVE THAT IT DOESN'T?
I think this would turn out to be a much more interesting topic instead of people pointing out what is not new and where it can be found.
As a footnote I would like to add that Apple is not only known for adding new features, but also (and more importantly so, at least for me) to MAKE THEM ACTUALLY STABLE AND USABLE.
I am happy with the mentioned features in Leopard, not because they are some voodoo that no one ever thought about, but because I will actually be able to use them (opposed to other OSs in which, if you scratch the surface, you have to be an advanced user...)
I am knowledgeable in computers, but I am by no means a "ultra power user". I like features that can be used and that help my workflow. (this is the main reason why I bought a MacBook and not some available alternative).
Ok..
What do I think Leopard should have?
1) Better management of external HD (in order to allow me to use softwares (such as iLife) using data stored on an external HD).
2) Time Machine that doesn't need an external HD (if I want, why not partition the HD in my computer and use that?). Or at least an "on the road temporary time machine" which then stores the backup data in my external HD once I am home and everything is set up.
Other tools, as a touch screen computer (or a bigger "mousing surface with touch screen functions") need much more time to implement and a lot of user teaching. But I would defenitely like to see a computer equipped with a more "tactile" interface compared to the current ones (preferably not using the screen as a surface, but part of the keyboard space).
What do you think?
A number of those features weren't actually on the older OS. Features that were somewhat similar, but implemented quite differently were there.
OS X has, at least from ver 10.1, been far stabler in the broadest sense than any of the older System versions earlier, such as 6, 7, 8, and 9.
Everything must be understood within this context.
While I've also complained that backups should be allowed on a separate partition of the startup drive, it's only because some people won't buy another drive for backup no matter what you tell them, or how many times they crash and lose setups and data.
However, from Apple's viewpoint, there is the not so little matter of liability. If the startup drive fails, and all backups are lost, then Apple will be subject to another lawsuit. they will say that Apple knew that it wasn't safe to backup on the same drive.
Listen folks, no operating system upgrade or otherwise is going to live up to the lofty expectations set forth by it's eager fans.
Whether you think the feature set in Leopard could've been better or not, it all boils down to this: is Leopard so bad that you've decided to switch to or continue using Windows, Linux, or any other OS out there?
For me, it's still OS X. And it's the latest and greatest version of OS X yet.
Apple has a problem.
In order to take customers away from the PC industry, it must be like Caesar's wife, more virtuous than everyone else.
If Apple, and its products, software, or hardware, are seen as being no better than what people are using now, Apple's expansion will come to an end.
So will the renaissance in third party hardware and software development.
While the feature set is fine, it must be more stable than Windows for Apple and its supporters to point to it as a viable alternative.
Apple should resist the tug towards release if any outstanding problems aren't resolved.
This is the greatest time in Apple's lifetime as a company to make it back to 10% of the US market, and possibly even significantly greater share, as well as a decent share across the world.
Linux is in turmoil, with the developers of the major distros having no clear path ahead, with their teams in disarray, and the OSes being a couple of years behind schedule.
MS's release is, even in the PC industry, being declared as lame?at best.
But, if Apple rushes product out the door, the window will close, and this time, it will likely be forever.
Wonder what they cut out. No way it goes from being as buggy as people were saying to very stable from what people are initially reporting this fast without cutting stuff out.
Its just not a question of what they cut out, but also what gets only 'half-done'. Places where the 'feature' is there, but its not configurable (or has no UI at all). I recall the initial implementation of fax capability was laughable at best, an incredibly difficult thing to manage and debug. Or take spotlight. I think a lot of people will agree that there's a lot left to be done with it, and hoping apple makes major improvements to this feature (even if one of those improvements is a switch in the control panel to turn the blasted thing off if you don't want it).
Its just not a question of what they cut out, but also what gets only 'half-done'. Places where the 'feature' is there, but its not configurable (or has no UI at all). I recall the initial implementation of fax capability was laughable at best, an incredibly difficult thing to manage and debug. Or take spotlight. I think a lot of people will agree that there's a lot left to be done with it, and hoping apple makes major improvements to this feature (even if one of those improvements is a switch in the control panel to turn the blasted thing off if you don't want it).
Let us not forget Quartz 2D Extreme.
That was promised as a feature in 10.4, but even two and a half years later, it hasn't made it.
I'm hoping that doesn't happen again. Apple can't afford to duplicate MS's bailing out the ship.
Kind of a contradictory statement isn't it? I mean, if you wouldn't use it in day to day use, doesn't that imply serious issues?
Nope, I don't think anyone would want to rely on beta software, especially an OS. It's like if you had a beta of say Indesign and it regularly crashed after 4 hours of use. Some people would say it has a serious problem but in the end, it's still usable and the bugs could easily be fairly minor but people wouldn't rely on it.
Contrast Leopard with Vista where even about 8 months after release, some people's peripherals don't work and that's a final release. I'd say that for Leopard being at a beta stage, it is looking pretty good.
If there is such a vast improvement after such a quick update then the bugs have to be minor.
Let us not forget Quartz 2D Extreme.
That was promised as a feature in 10.4, but even two and a half years later, it hasn't made it.
Yeah but it looks like they are using EGL, which could be a replacement for that:
http://www.khronos.org/egl/
Suffice to say that PDF rendering is much faster than in Tiger and they are using PDF for the RI interface.
N
Yeah but it looks like they are using EGL, which could be a replacement for that:
http://www.khronos.org/egl/
Suffice to say that PDF rendering is much faster than in Tiger and they are using PDF for the RI interface.
Where have you seen EGL here?
According to their own site, it's not for OS X. At least not being stated as such.
I think what many people want from Time Machine is version control, rather than backup. If you look at it in that way, it makes a lot of sense for it to work on a single disk. They want 'backup' in the sense of if they accidentally delete something, rather than to recover from hardware failure.
Amorya
Kind like the previous versions option in Windows or the ability to easily rollback to an older driver if the new one sucks. Seems like all the features you guys want are and have been in Windows.
Kind like the previous versions option in Windows or the ability to easily rollback to an older driver if the new one sucks. Seems like all the features you guys want are and have been in Windows.
See aegisdesign's post. It's not a question of whether something vaguely related to the features exists or not (on OS 9, UNIX, Windows, Linux, Xerox ALTO, whatever). It's a question of implementation and usability. If you don't understand (or value) this, then you probably shouldn't bother using a Mac. (assuming you're not just a troll, which is probably a bad assumption to make)
YOU ARE THE 100'000th VISITOR, BLA BLA
sorry. but please appleinsider remove those utterly stupid adverts !
i mean everybody knows that these ads are not serious ! Please do yourself and me a favour and get rid of them.
thank's
Unfortunately they pay for this site and I suspect AI don't have fine control over what is shown. (I often see Crucial advertising more RAM for Vista machines for example). Using only Safari's pop-up blocker is sufficent to get rid of the most annoying.
Don't new products come out on Fridays? That would be October 26, if there were refering to 2007.
Tuesdays are traditional for Apple to release new products.
Like what others have said above, it's the implementation that's the new feature in Leopard.
Now can we stop this "Windows has had backup software for years" nonsense? Please?
Best post in the whole thread!
Where have you seen EGL here?
According to their own site, it's not for OS X. At least not being stated as such.
There's an EGL framework in the Leopard system that wasn't in Tiger and it contains OpenGL code so it looks to be one and the same.
"EGL can be implemented on multiple operating systems (such as Symbian, embedded Linux, Unix, and Windows)"
OS X is a unix system so it can be easily ported to it.
"OpenVG? is a royalty-free, cross-platform API that provides a low-level hardware acceleration interface for vector graphics libraries such as Flash and SVG. OpenVG is targeted primarily at handheld devices that require portable acceleration of high-quality vector graphics for compelling user interfaces and text on small screen devices - while enabling hardware acceleration to provide fluidly interactive performance at very low power levels."
Leopard definitely achieves fluidity with minimal resource usage. PDF scrolling is smooth as butter as is coverflow and Apple needed fast rendering of vector graphics for their resolution independent interface.
I noticed that there were lots of mentions about portable devices on the EGL site, which would suggest it was possibly used on the iphone but the OS X 86 project people don't mention EGL in the list of iphone frameworks.
Whatever they're using in Leopard, it's quite clear that 2D rendering is vastly improved so if they haven't implemented QD2D Extreme, it's not necessary.
Spaces - I first used something like that on an AT&T 3B2 in 1986. The remnants of that are in OSX in the UNIX 'screen' command already - try it. Then we got UNIX terminals with X Windows and a virtual screen manager.
No. You used Virtual Desktops in their crude X-Windows form way back when. Spaces is an evolution of VD that has that NeXT flare which NeXTSTEP the visual envy of X-Windows wanting Display Postscript and all that WindowServer.app was way back when.
Time Machine - Mac has rsync and tar already or even 'Make Archive' in the Finder, Windows has had a backup program since DOS's BACKUP program in DOS 1.0.
Time Machine is not rsync
Screen Sharing - Apple Remote Desktop first released in the Mac OS 8 days. Or try VNC.
NXHost was around before VNC and obviously ARD. ARD is the more feature rich child.
Stacks - a reimplementation of sprung tab windows in MacOS8
No. Stacks today is definitely not a reimplementation.
Downloads folder - it's just a folder!
[b]Even a Folder is a special file. The point is how you make your interface extend functionality and ease-of-use. The wheel is old news but has evolved.
Quick Look - Used to be called Quick View in Windows NT 3.1
Quick View in NT most certainly isn't Quick Look. Don't compare a Bitmap screen dump window Server in NT 3.1 to Display PDF and hardware accelerated OpenGL 2 with shader language 1.2 from CoreAnimation that via Delegated Services allows one to run a small footprint of a Cocoa application to view the contents of various filetypes only limited by how open their specs are to Apple. If Apple provides an public API for Quick Look expect third parties to extend services to this tool.
The point I'm making is that each of these is nothing new if you just look at a feature comparison chart, it's how they are done that is important and that's usually where Apple totally wins - Implementation detail.
The Spreadsheet was originally just a MxN Matrix from Linear Algebra. It's how you leverage the tools that make them reinvented.