I won't point out the absolute lack of a soul you and your truly whining compatriots on this thread are showing to the world, but I ask you one favor.
Please print out and save this thread somewhere, and at some time in the future, when your now-perfect body starts betraying you (as it inevitably will), and look back on how little you understood about 'this real world'
Excellent post GQB.
I have been recovering from a badly broken leg (happened over a year ago), and have been through wheelchairs, crutches, etc. Being disabled is no fun, even in the US (which is, arguably eons ahead of other countries on this particular issue).
If Apple stores have a problem on this front, they had darn well better address it. Period. Sometimes, it takes a lawsuit, unfortunately.
And, as to the morons who regularly reveal their pathetic ignorance whenever an issue such as this (or, say racism, sexism) shows up, all I can say is: I hope you all grow up.
Glad to hear you won't be visiting any time soon. And I personally couldn't care less what the "rest of the world" thinks. In fact, if the rest of the world is criticizing the U.S., I generally take that as a sign that we're doing something right.
The "rest of the world" has been responsible for the vast majority of humanity's horrors and backwardness right up till the present day. Add up the U.S.'s good and bad contributions to the planet, and we've easily contributed more overall good to the world (not to mention our own citizenry) than any other nation in history. When the "rest of the world" starts to genuinely carry some of this heavy load, *then* I'll be interested in its opinions. Till then, bugger off, Mate.
P.S. Let the whining about U.S. arrogance begin!
murphyweb:
That is one of the most ridiculous things i have ever heard in my life!! The US as a nation has been around a fraction of the time of other nations. How you can even begin to think that the US has contributed more to the world in that short space is beyond me. Typical sheer arrogance, try reading some history books and please tell me where the US fits in in the grand scheme of things?
yup!
Hey,k2director dude, you need to open your eyes.
Get some books. .. switch the channel to BBC for example or else ,i'm affraid, you might get too dummy.
You have absolutely no clue about whatsoever involves Ext.US politics and Environment.
By the way, for those that think "handicapped" is a crock, understand that you are nor immune to joining the ranks. With leukemia it only takes ONE white cell to fully mature and you are off to the races. A drunk driver can add you to this population in a flash, as can a wide range of other situations.
In other words, grow up, be very grateful you are not in a wheel chair and have a bit of understanding (if possible) for those that are.
Well said. A lot of the posters here may yet be sheltered from life's realities so far, so good luck to everyone.
I use a wheelchair (and crutches, sometimes) and have been in the Apple stores in both Everett and Bellevue, WA, and have never had any problems. I agree that if you're having the type of difficulties described in the lawsuit, you should simply contact the manager.
I was once in a Fred Meyer store in Bothell, WA, and couldn't reach the dress shirts because the aisles were too narrow for the store's electric cart. I informed the manager. "Sorry," he replied, walking off. When I returned to the customer service counter, I found that someone had removed the crutches I had left there. The store manager refused to open the pharmacy (this was at about 8 p.m.) so I could buy a pair of crutches from him -- or even help me out to my car.
I drove the electric cart out to my car, drove across the street to a Walgreens, crawled to the back of my car to retrieve my wheelchair, went inside, and bought some crutches.
Now, there's a company (Fred Meyer) that needs to be sued for ignoring the rights of people with disabilities.
My god, that manager should have been fired. You should write a letter to the president of Fred Meyer stores. If they don't respond, they don't deserve your business.
Thanks everyone, you have reminded me why i have vowed never to go to the USA for a holiday (vacation) again, Your country is full of fekin idiots.
* Stop bloody suing everybody, do you realise you look like greedy tw@ts to the rest of the word?
* Some of the comments on here are disgraceful, you should be bloody ashamed of yourselves, I really hope some of you end up in a wheelchair one day, i would love to see how you cope.
Have you any idea how this plays to the rest of the world? Ever wonder why so many countries in the world hate America? Land of the free my arse.
Trust me, the comments on this board are anything but normal.
I can say that my local Apple Store in Southlake Tx. is not convent for someone with a disability like myself ( due to a back injury, not that it matters why ) I am not confined to a wheelchair but the reason that i say this is the area that the store is in does not have any handicapped parking on the street in-front of the store but they do have it on an adjacent street although you do have to cross two busy streets to get to the store if their is no parking on the street that the store is on, making it a bit harder for me and other is a disability to gain access to the store but that is not Apple's fault its poor planning on the part of the city and the contractors, i would assume that its in compliance with local city, state and federal laws. this has not caused me any overly undue stress trying to get to and from the store, once i to the store i have access to most if not all areas of the store that any customer would have under reasonable terms. I agree that if you need help sometime you have to ask for it, that is life for anyone.
My point being i agree that accessibility and convenience is not one in the same and those with limited mobility sometimes have to go a bit out of their way to get to the things that they need or want, and most of those people have adapted to the world outside of their homes just as anyone would.
what a stupid case. Of course the tables are to high, like 99.999% of other people can use them. If they were lower all the "normal" people would have troubble. As for not fixing the software issue, its not discrimination, he just didnt do it correctly.
I may sue apple because im too tall and i have to actually tilt back their displays to view them.
The women are right; the stores don't generally comply with ADA. Unfortunately for Apple, there is a wheel-chair bound lawyer in San Francisco that goes around to almost every building and will sue if it is not accessible (or do so on behalf of others). Often times, he ends up getting concessions beyond the requirements of ADA!
When the new building codes come into effect in California, things will be even more of a mess, since additional bathrooms are required for many businesses (among other things).
The really disappointing thing about this is that I really enjoy the layout of the Apple stores, including counter heights. This is one area where I find wheelchair access and "universal access" are in conflict.
The right way for Apple to have handled this is to give people in wheel chairs a "personal shopper" and be all over them when they come in the door. The store works better with everybody standing up (you can fit more merchandise and people in a given footprint). It doesn't change the fact that they will eventually get sued, but it sure extends the life.
Uh, no. Since 'ignore' is a a choice, its more 'redundant'.
My bad - left off the "un" - to unintentionally ignore is a contradiction in terms - if you are ignoring someone it must be intentional, or else it is not ignoring.
Very good lawsuit. I hope that their victory will force Apple to obey federal and state laws. Every potential shopper should be able to enjoy their visit to an AppleStore. What applies to a Sony or Gap store applies to an AppleStore.
They should also claim exemplary and class action damages for every disabled person in the US who was prevented from fully accessing an AppleStore and enjoying their visit like every other potential customer.
Sad to say, but change will happen only after a successful lawsuit. Hang on there!
Sad to say, but change will happen only after a successful lawsuit. Hang on there!
WTF !!?!? WHAAAT THE F. !
This is rather retarded . The only change that could happen ,that way is to turn things arround and gain hate .. Don't get me wrong , i'm not against the extra attention for handicapped ... but this is way too much.
Name a bar for instance ,with a handicapped policy ... why not a golf yard with extra "handicapped -fast lanes ?!?" oh ! and why not a public transport especially designed for handicapped people too.. so they don't feel different ... !? They are different .. everyone is.
Though I've been seeing it for years, it still puzzles me that many people don't realize that what they read in a legal complaint are allegations. There may not be any proof or any grounds for relief even if there is an identifiable problem.
As someone mentioned, there are people who make their livings by filing disability lawsuits. The professional plaintiff in California he referred to has been barred from federal court after filing hundreds of dubious claims of disability discrimination and usually winning modest settlements. His modus operandi is to visit a place just once, note anything that can be taken issue with, such as high counters or tables, or small bathrooms, and then fit the defendant into a complaint form he perfected years ago. I am wary of these two plaintiffs partly for that reason. Their behavior sounds more like con artists casing the joint than consumers seeking service.
I am also skeptical because Apple Stores have greater clearance for wheelchairs than most retail establishments. The laptops where one uses Concierge sure look accessible to me. Those tables are the height of a desk.
If these plaintiffs came to a law firm where I worked, I would be concerned that they have so few tangible complaints about the Apple Store and that the one's they have are either doubtful or petty.
It will be interesting to see if this complaint makes it pass an initial motion for dismissal.
Note to the belligerent disabled poster: If you study the civil rights movement and the women's movement, one of the key things you will notice is that the activists and lawyers did not dissipate their energies on trivialities. They focused on concrete, significant problems that had practical solutions.
People in wheelchairs are NOT equals to people who can move on their own two feet?
Nobody is equal to anybody else. Nothing you can do will make them equal.
I find it funny a lot of people here I siding with Apple even though the case hasn't been proven. Moreover, they would, if it were any other company, side with the disabled.
I've pretty much always said the ADA was wrong, simply because I don't believe you should be able to sue if you can't access a business. Doesn't that problem take care of itself? They don't get your money, so that's that, right?
A lot of the physically disabled in this country are that way because they are obese and can't walk. Since it's their fault they're fat, and they can stop being fat any time they want, why do they deserve special accommodation?
What about smokers? If they go long enough with out a cigarette, they'll get distracted and grumpy. They are chemically addicted, clear as day. If they don't get their fix, they will suffer and unknowingly hurt those around them. They have a clinically detectable chemical imbalance in their brain.
I guess that means we should allow smoking everywhere, and have special vents that get rid of all the 2nd hand smoke to make it safe for others.
After all, they're disabled, right? Having to go outside or to a special designated area every couple hours is definitely a handicap. Don't they deserve your sympathy? Where's their clause in the ADA?
The backlash against the disabled in this thread is a prime example of what happens when you force people to sacrifice for others. Two wrongs do not make a right--it may be wrong for people to ignore the less fortunate, but it's even more wrong for them to be robbed to restore some ridiculous notion of 'fairness' which is not even quantifiable. I'm sure if Apple were notified, they'd put in the ramps no problem. However, suing them first and asking questions later is childish and suspect.
It's tangential, but I learned today that the local YMCA had instructed its summer camp counselors never to hug the kids. They were afraid of (the almost certain) lawsuit. I take my child to the park, but always politely refuse to help other kids who ask for help with something, like swinging or climbing the rings. If somebody else's kid is hurt, I'll stand aside until the parent arrives. If I'm in another country I behave as I wish: I hug kids and help them when they ask or need it.
The dirty secret about the helping and compassionate things that Americans have had rammed down their throats by government is that it has made the people cold and remote. It has produced suspicion and insensitivity. Where I once would go out of my way to help someone in a wheelchair, I'll now step aside so he isn't humiliated by my act of decency. Americans can't distinguish between kindness and paternalism.
It's tangential, but it illustrates very well how Americans can't seem to get along with each
other in a reasonable, realistic world. I'm an American, but I've been to many other
countries, and you're right -- it's normal to help someone else's kid. In fact, I've been
places where you're expected to discipline a kid who's doing something bad, even
if they are a total stranger and you don't know them. Everyone helps everyone else.
And they do so naturally, without a second thought.
The US used to be that way, many decades ago. How did we let the media and the
government brainwash us into isolating ourselves from one another, and becoming
so self-centered and selfish? How did we let them convince us to fear everyone but
them?
It's time to fight back. Hug a kid that isn't yours. When your workplace says you
can't, tell them that such a rule is insane, and that you'll do it anyway. Be good to each
other.
If we continue down the current path, our society of isolated individuals who just happen to
live in the same geographic region (not really a country by my definition) will
That is one of the most ridiculous things i have ever heard in my life!! The US as a nation has been around a fraction of the time of other nations. How you can even begin to think that the US has contributed more to the world in that short space is beyond me. Typical sheer arrogance, try reading some history books and please tell me where the US fits in in the grand scheme of things?
OK. I guess you'll give up your automobile. Oh. Your computer, too. All that heavy industrial machinery that's used to build your infrastructure? Bye bye. Umm... Guess you don't want your iPod, iMac, or iPhone.
Then, the U.S. can start cancelling all that foreign aid, even to U.S.-hating governments and world organizations. (Hey, they don't hate us when we give 'em billions of dollars!) The U.S. could do a lot to drive down our national debt by ceasing all the cash handouts we pass around the world.
MurphyWeb: Typical sheer leftist, American-hating ignorance. Take a look at what America gives to the rest of the world and please tell me which country even comes close to doing for other foreign nations what America has done in its 200+ year history.
Or you could think of it the other way: people with disadvantages when compared to the other members of the society require more resources while not necessarily producing more.
You could, but it would be totally incorrect and stereotyping. Alot of handicapped people are just as productive, if not more productive, than able-bodied people. In fact there are lots of lazy able-bodied people I can think of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by parki
No, society is a group formed to benefit its members or further a common cause, NOT to "level the playing field" within the group. Please don't redefine terms to suit your own purpose.
How about this for fair: forcing shop owners to spend their time and money to make their shops accessible to a small group of customers when they don't believe they can realize a profit on that investment? Are the wheelchair bound customers going to pay extra to help the shop owner recoup the cost?
As one person above mentioned, what is often helpful to the handicapped, is often helpful to others. Like cutdown curbs, lower desks, etc. And yes, there are small shop owners that would be put out of business by making drastic changes, but Apple isn't a small shop owner and these are brand new stores that should have taken this into account.
Quote:
Or how about handicapped people coming to grips with the fact that they are less able to do certain tasks and that asking for help is not a sin. Perhaps the handicap person doesn't want to be a burden by asking for help, but then again, suing a place of business over handicap access isn't a very good way to forget their woes.
Most handicap do work hard to adapt and do accept help when needed. But then I've seen handicapped elevators in concourses that are locked and handicap people having to go out of their way to get help. Why the hell is the elevator locked?
Quote:
The values of our society suggest that we would revile anybody that refused a reasonable request for help from a handicapped person. Could you describe how the scenario of an Apple employee refusing a request for help from a handicapped person plays out in your mind? You must imagine one one cold hearted bastard of an Apple employee to refuse to push a button for a wheelchair-bound person.
I've seen many a salesperson ignore potential customers and instead chit-chat with other staff, and I've seen the exact opposite, salespeople who go out of their way to help a customer.
OK. I guess you'll give up your automobile. Oh. Your computer, too. All that heavy industrial machinery that's used to build your infrastructure? Bye bye. Umm... Guess you don't want your iPod, iMac, or iPhone.
Not sure what your trying to say here. The Europeans contributed just as much to the automobile as the Americans, if, if not more. There would have been automobiles without the Americans. And the Americans seem consider European cars more luxurious than American cars.
"...compensation for the emotional and physical losses caused by Apple's seemingly neglectful approach"
"...both women are less interested in punitive action and more in successfully pressing for the needed changes to the building's layout and employee policies..."
Sounds like a crock of shit to me.
I wouldn't jump so quickly to that conclusion. Both women seem to be legit activists fighting for the right of people with disabilities. Nicole Brown-Booker is listed as "Information and Referral Specialist" under the "National Resource Center for Parents with Disabilities & Berkeley Parenting and Disability Project" [1], and Jana Overbo works at the "Independent Living Resource Center" in San Francisco and was part of at least one previous lawsuit against the City of San Francisco and several state agencies [2].
So they might be a little bit trigger-happy regarding the filling of lawsuits against government and hip companies but given their background, I doubt they do it with personal profit in mind. Seems fair to me, they're not after Mom and Pop's. We need people like them once in a while. Maybe Apple does need to fix their elevator while the rest of us admire the signature glass staircase. You go girls. Let the judge decide.
I'm legally blind. My parents are ranking members of the National Federation for the Blind. I am very familiar wit ADA issues and I feel for those who do not fit easily in this world. Having said that, I have very little sympathy for those who do not learn to assimilate into the environs in which they are placed. Let's face a few, cold, hard facts.
1. The world, is designed for the average person, average hight, average width, average vision, average weight. Door entrances are just not made for a six hundred pounder, nor should they be. Multi-level apartments have stairs that must be climbed. I live on a third floor of an apartment. It is much nicer than the first floor units. No one in a wheelchair could live where I live. Pity. You may be one person, but if you take up two airplane seats, you should have to pay for both seats. If you are nine feet tall and your head scraped the ceiling, you should not enter that room. Watchmakers are not obligated to make the numbers large. Restaurants are not required to have a purée menu for those with no teeth.
2. The natural world is also no designed for the disabled. God did not make mountains that could be scaled by a person with no legs. Remove arms from the equation and swimming in the ocean blue is out of reach. Blind people will never see the stars in the sky. The list goes on.
Yet, in spite of all the things we can't do, there is a whole plethora of things we can. You can't sue the world because you do not fit well in it. You are better off trying to sue God for making you that way. The world does not have to conform to your special needs. You are the one with the special needs, therefore, it is you that needs to learn to conform to the world. It irks me to see wheelchair only parking spaces that sit empty for most of the day while everyone else wastes gas searching for a parking space. Besides, if you are in a wheelchair, why do you need to be that close to the building? Wheelchair only stalls in bathrooms? I refuse to crap my pants when there is a perfectly good stall not being used.
I have never read the menu at McDonald's, and I have no idea what the 31 flavors are. Who do I sue for having to squint my way through life. When I need help with something I can't do on my own, I bring a friend. If you do not have any friends, perhaps you should work on your personality.
I'm legally blind. The world, is designed for the average person. I have very little sympathy for those who do not learn to assimilate into the environs in which they are placed. You can't sue the world because you do not fit well in it.
Adapting to the environment and fighting to shape it are not mutually exclusive; they're two complementary approaches. Unfortunately, you can't rely only on people's goodwill and at some point, the best way to fight is to convince enough individuals that your cause is so important that the entire community should adopt laws to support it. And so, a long time ago, when the World was designed for the "average person" who at the time was the White Man, Women started to do it. And then Blacks did it. And Gays did it. And Handicapped did it. And, heck, even the White Man did it in order to protect himself from other White Men. And in the end, we now live in a much better world than the one we had before all rebellion and activism started.
You are a legally blind web-browser user. I used to be a web-browser programmer, and for several years I worked on CSS, a language that allowed browsers to implement the "User Agent Stylesheets" that you are probably familiar with since visually impaired users are the primary beneficiaries of the technology. You and millions of legally blind people can now surf, communicate and work through the web. You and I can share our views on this page. But how did that happen? Was it because of activists who in the 1990s pushed to pass Section 508, defining the accessibility requirements for software products in federal agencies? Was it because of programmers like me who sensitized their development teams to the issue? Or is it only based on your strength of character? For me, no doubt, this dialog is made possible, by and large, thanks to your remarkable and constant effort of adaptation to the world. But please don't dismiss the achievements brought by the rebellion of your peers and the goodwill of those who accompanied them.
Rebellion, goodwill and adaptation: in the pursuit of happiness, we need all three.
Comments
I won't point out the absolute lack of a soul you and your truly whining compatriots on this thread are showing to the world, but I ask you one favor.
Please print out and save this thread somewhere, and at some time in the future, when your now-perfect body starts betraying you (as it inevitably will), and look back on how little you understood about 'this real world'
Excellent post GQB.
I have been recovering from a badly broken leg (happened over a year ago), and have been through wheelchairs, crutches, etc. Being disabled is no fun, even in the US (which is, arguably eons ahead of other countries on this particular issue).
If Apple stores have a problem on this front, they had darn well better address it. Period. Sometimes, it takes a lawsuit, unfortunately.
And, as to the morons who regularly reveal their pathetic ignorance whenever an issue such as this (or, say racism, sexism) shows up, all I can say is: I hope you all grow up.
Originally Posted by k2director View Post
Glad to hear you won't be visiting any time soon. And I personally couldn't care less what the "rest of the world" thinks. In fact, if the rest of the world is criticizing the U.S., I generally take that as a sign that we're doing something right.
The "rest of the world" has been responsible for the vast majority of humanity's horrors and backwardness right up till the present day. Add up the U.S.'s good and bad contributions to the planet, and we've easily contributed more overall good to the world (not to mention our own citizenry) than any other nation in history. When the "rest of the world" starts to genuinely carry some of this heavy load, *then* I'll be interested in its opinions. Till then, bugger off, Mate.
P.S. Let the whining about U.S. arrogance begin!
murphyweb:
That is one of the most ridiculous things i have ever heard in my life!! The US as a nation has been around a fraction of the time of other nations. How you can even begin to think that the US has contributed more to the world in that short space is beyond me. Typical sheer arrogance, try reading some history books and please tell me where the US fits in in the grand scheme of things?
yup!
Hey,k2director dude, you need to open your eyes.
Get some books. .. switch the channel to BBC for example or else ,i'm affraid, you might get too dummy.
You have absolutely no clue about whatsoever involves Ext.US politics and Environment.
By the way, for those that think "handicapped" is a crock, understand that you are nor immune to joining the ranks. With leukemia it only takes ONE white cell to fully mature and you are off to the races. A drunk driver can add you to this population in a flash, as can a wide range of other situations.
In other words, grow up, be very grateful you are not in a wheel chair and have a bit of understanding (if possible) for those that are.
Well said. A lot of the posters here may yet be sheltered from life's realities so far, so good luck to everyone.
I use a wheelchair (and crutches, sometimes) and have been in the Apple stores in both Everett and Bellevue, WA, and have never had any problems. I agree that if you're having the type of difficulties described in the lawsuit, you should simply contact the manager.
I was once in a Fred Meyer store in Bothell, WA, and couldn't reach the dress shirts because the aisles were too narrow for the store's electric cart. I informed the manager. "Sorry," he replied, walking off. When I returned to the customer service counter, I found that someone had removed the crutches I had left there. The store manager refused to open the pharmacy (this was at about 8 p.m.) so I could buy a pair of crutches from him -- or even help me out to my car.
I drove the electric cart out to my car, drove across the street to a Walgreens, crawled to the back of my car to retrieve my wheelchair, went inside, and bought some crutches.
Now, there's a company (Fred Meyer) that needs to be sued for ignoring the rights of people with disabilities.
My god, that manager should have been fired. You should write a letter to the president of Fred Meyer stores. If they don't respond, they don't deserve your business.
Thanks everyone, you have reminded me why i have vowed never to go to the USA for a holiday (vacation) again, Your country is full of fekin idiots.
* Stop bloody suing everybody, do you realise you look like greedy tw@ts to the rest of the word?
* Some of the comments on here are disgraceful, you should be bloody ashamed of yourselves, I really hope some of you end up in a wheelchair one day, i would love to see how you cope.
Have you any idea how this plays to the rest of the world? Ever wonder why so many countries in the world hate America? Land of the free my arse.
Trust me, the comments on this board are anything but normal.
My point being i agree that accessibility and convenience is not one in the same and those with limited mobility sometimes have to go a bit out of their way to get to the things that they need or want, and most of those people have adapted to the world outside of their homes just as anyone would.
I may sue apple because im too tall and i have to actually tilt back their displays to view them.
When the new building codes come into effect in California, things will be even more of a mess, since additional bathrooms are required for many businesses (among other things).
The really disappointing thing about this is that I really enjoy the layout of the Apple stores, including counter heights. This is one area where I find wheelchair access and "universal access" are in conflict.
The right way for Apple to have handled this is to give people in wheel chairs a "personal shopper" and be all over them when they come in the door. The store works better with everybody standing up (you can fit more merchandise and people in a given footprint). It doesn't change the fact that they will eventually get sued, but it sure extends the life.
Uh, no. Since 'ignore' is a a choice, its more 'redundant'.
My bad - left off the "un" - to unintentionally ignore is a contradiction in terms - if you are ignoring someone it must be intentional, or else it is not ignoring.
They should also claim exemplary and class action damages for every disabled person in the US who was prevented from fully accessing an AppleStore and enjoying their visit like every other potential customer.
Sad to say, but change will happen only after a successful lawsuit. Hang on there!
Very good lawsuit.
Sad to say, but change will happen only after a successful lawsuit. Hang on there!
WTF !!?!? WHAAAT THE F. !
This is rather retarded . The only change that could happen ,that way is to turn things arround and gain hate .. Don't get me wrong , i'm not against the extra attention for handicapped ... but this is way too much.
Name a bar for instance ,with a handicapped policy ... why not a golf yard with extra "handicapped -fast lanes ?!?" oh ! and why not a public transport especially designed for handicapped people too.. so they don't feel different ... !? They are different .. everyone is.
ridiculous!
As someone mentioned, there are people who make their livings by filing disability lawsuits. The professional plaintiff in California he referred to has been barred from federal court after filing hundreds of dubious claims of disability discrimination and usually winning modest settlements. His modus operandi is to visit a place just once, note anything that can be taken issue with, such as high counters or tables, or small bathrooms, and then fit the defendant into a complaint form he perfected years ago. I am wary of these two plaintiffs partly for that reason. Their behavior sounds more like con artists casing the joint than consumers seeking service.
I am also skeptical because Apple Stores have greater clearance for wheelchairs than most retail establishments. The laptops where one uses Concierge sure look accessible to me. Those tables are the height of a desk.
If these plaintiffs came to a law firm where I worked, I would be concerned that they have so few tangible complaints about the Apple Store and that the one's they have are either doubtful or petty.
It will be interesting to see if this complaint makes it pass an initial motion for dismissal.
Note to the belligerent disabled poster: If you study the civil rights movement and the women's movement, one of the key things you will notice is that the activists and lawyers did not dissipate their energies on trivialities. They focused on concrete, significant problems that had practical solutions.
People in wheelchairs are NOT equals to people who can move on their own two feet?
Nobody is equal to anybody else. Nothing you can do will make them equal.
I find it funny a lot of people here I siding with Apple even though the case hasn't been proven. Moreover, they would, if it were any other company, side with the disabled.
I've pretty much always said the ADA was wrong, simply because I don't believe you should be able to sue if you can't access a business. Doesn't that problem take care of itself? They don't get your money, so that's that, right?
A lot of the physically disabled in this country are that way because they are obese and can't walk. Since it's their fault they're fat, and they can stop being fat any time they want, why do they deserve special accommodation?
What about smokers? If they go long enough with out a cigarette, they'll get distracted and grumpy. They are chemically addicted, clear as day. If they don't get their fix, they will suffer and unknowingly hurt those around them. They have a clinically detectable chemical imbalance in their brain.
I guess that means we should allow smoking everywhere, and have special vents that get rid of all the 2nd hand smoke to make it safe for others.
After all, they're disabled, right? Having to go outside or to a special designated area every couple hours is definitely a handicap. Don't they deserve your sympathy? Where's their clause in the ADA?
The backlash against the disabled in this thread is a prime example of what happens when you force people to sacrifice for others. Two wrongs do not make a right--it may be wrong for people to ignore the less fortunate, but it's even more wrong for them to be robbed to restore some ridiculous notion of 'fairness' which is not even quantifiable. I'm sure if Apple were notified, they'd put in the ramps no problem. However, suing them first and asking questions later is childish and suspect.
It's tangential, but I learned today that the local YMCA had instructed its summer camp counselors never to hug the kids. They were afraid of (the almost certain) lawsuit. I take my child to the park, but always politely refuse to help other kids who ask for help with something, like swinging or climbing the rings. If somebody else's kid is hurt, I'll stand aside until the parent arrives. If I'm in another country I behave as I wish: I hug kids and help them when they ask or need it.
The dirty secret about the helping and compassionate things that Americans have had rammed down their throats by government is that it has made the people cold and remote. It has produced suspicion and insensitivity. Where I once would go out of my way to help someone in a wheelchair, I'll now step aside so he isn't humiliated by my act of decency. Americans can't distinguish between kindness and paternalism.
It's tangential, but it illustrates very well how Americans can't seem to get along with each
other in a reasonable, realistic world. I'm an American, but I've been to many other
countries, and you're right -- it's normal to help someone else's kid. In fact, I've been
places where you're expected to discipline a kid who's doing something bad, even
if they are a total stranger and you don't know them. Everyone helps everyone else.
And they do so naturally, without a second thought.
The US used to be that way, many decades ago. How did we let the media and the
government brainwash us into isolating ourselves from one another, and becoming
so self-centered and selfish? How did we let them convince us to fear everyone but
them?
It's time to fight back. Hug a kid that isn't yours. When your workplace says you
can't, tell them that such a rule is insane, and that you'll do it anyway. Be good to each
other.
If we continue down the current path, our society of isolated individuals who just happen to
live in the same geographic region (not really a country by my definition) will
cease to exist.
That is one of the most ridiculous things i have ever heard in my life!! The US as a nation has been around a fraction of the time of other nations. How you can even begin to think that the US has contributed more to the world in that short space is beyond me. Typical sheer arrogance, try reading some history books and please tell me where the US fits in in the grand scheme of things?
OK. I guess you'll give up your automobile. Oh. Your computer, too. All that heavy industrial machinery that's used to build your infrastructure? Bye bye. Umm... Guess you don't want your iPod, iMac, or iPhone.
Then, the U.S. can start cancelling all that foreign aid, even to U.S.-hating governments and world organizations. (Hey, they don't hate us when we give 'em billions of dollars!) The U.S. could do a lot to drive down our national debt by ceasing all the cash handouts we pass around the world.
MurphyWeb: Typical sheer leftist, American-hating ignorance. Take a look at what America gives to the rest of the world and please tell me which country even comes close to doing for other foreign nations what America has done in its 200+ year history.
Or you could think of it the other way: people with disadvantages when compared to the other members of the society require more resources while not necessarily producing more.
You could, but it would be totally incorrect and stereotyping. Alot of handicapped people are just as productive, if not more productive, than able-bodied people. In fact there are lots of lazy able-bodied people I can think of.
No, society is a group formed to benefit its members or further a common cause, NOT to "level the playing field" within the group. Please don't redefine terms to suit your own purpose.
How about this for fair: forcing shop owners to spend their time and money to make their shops accessible to a small group of customers when they don't believe they can realize a profit on that investment? Are the wheelchair bound customers going to pay extra to help the shop owner recoup the cost?
As one person above mentioned, what is often helpful to the handicapped, is often helpful to others. Like cutdown curbs, lower desks, etc. And yes, there are small shop owners that would be put out of business by making drastic changes, but Apple isn't a small shop owner and these are brand new stores that should have taken this into account.
Or how about handicapped people coming to grips with the fact that they are less able to do certain tasks and that asking for help is not a sin. Perhaps the handicap person doesn't want to be a burden by asking for help, but then again, suing a place of business over handicap access isn't a very good way to forget their woes.
Most handicap do work hard to adapt and do accept help when needed. But then I've seen handicapped elevators in concourses that are locked and handicap people having to go out of their way to get help. Why the hell is the elevator locked?
The values of our society suggest that we would revile anybody that refused a reasonable request for help from a handicapped person. Could you describe how the scenario of an Apple employee refusing a request for help from a handicapped person plays out in your mind? You must imagine one one cold hearted bastard of an Apple employee to refuse to push a button for a wheelchair-bound person.
I've seen many a salesperson ignore potential customers and instead chit-chat with other staff, and I've seen the exact opposite, salespeople who go out of their way to help a customer.
OK. I guess you'll give up your automobile. Oh. Your computer, too. All that heavy industrial machinery that's used to build your infrastructure? Bye bye. Umm... Guess you don't want your iPod, iMac, or iPhone.
Not sure what your trying to say here. The Europeans contributed just as much to the automobile as the Americans, if, if not more. There would have been automobiles without the Americans. And the Americans seem consider European cars more luxurious than American cars.
http://inventors.about.com/library/w...carssteama.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile'
I'm not saying that the US hasn't contributed something to the World, but I wouldn't saying anyone has contributed more than any other.
And while iPods, iMacs, and iPhones, may have been designed in the US, they are made with affordable labour and parts from China.
Mark down another useless lawsuit in the book.
"...compensation for the emotional and physical losses caused by Apple's seemingly neglectful approach"
"...both women are less interested in punitive action and more in successfully pressing for the needed changes to the building's layout and employee policies..."
Sounds like a crock of shit to me.
I wouldn't jump so quickly to that conclusion. Both women seem to be legit activists fighting for the right of people with disabilities. Nicole Brown-Booker is listed as "Information and Referral Specialist" under the "National Resource Center for Parents with Disabilities & Berkeley Parenting and Disability Project" [1], and Jana Overbo works at the "Independent Living Resource Center" in San Francisco and was part of at least one previous lawsuit against the City of San Francisco and several state agencies [2].
So they might be a little bit trigger-happy regarding the filling of lawsuits against government and hip companies but given their background, I doubt they do it with personal profit in mind. Seems fair to me, they're not after Mom and Pop's. We need people like them once in a while. Maybe Apple does need to fix their elevator while the rest of us admire the signature glass staircase. You go girls. Let the judge decide.
[1] http://www.berkeleyalliance.org/html...led/index.html
[2] http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...14/MN96981.DTL
1. The world, is designed for the average person, average hight, average width, average vision, average weight. Door entrances are just not made for a six hundred pounder, nor should they be. Multi-level apartments have stairs that must be climbed. I live on a third floor of an apartment. It is much nicer than the first floor units. No one in a wheelchair could live where I live. Pity. You may be one person, but if you take up two airplane seats, you should have to pay for both seats. If you are nine feet tall and your head scraped the ceiling, you should not enter that room. Watchmakers are not obligated to make the numbers large. Restaurants are not required to have a purée menu for those with no teeth.
2. The natural world is also no designed for the disabled. God did not make mountains that could be scaled by a person with no legs. Remove arms from the equation and swimming in the ocean blue is out of reach. Blind people will never see the stars in the sky. The list goes on.
Yet, in spite of all the things we can't do, there is a whole plethora of things we can. You can't sue the world because you do not fit well in it. You are better off trying to sue God for making you that way. The world does not have to conform to your special needs. You are the one with the special needs, therefore, it is you that needs to learn to conform to the world. It irks me to see wheelchair only parking spaces that sit empty for most of the day while everyone else wastes gas searching for a parking space. Besides, if you are in a wheelchair, why do you need to be that close to the building? Wheelchair only stalls in bathrooms? I refuse to crap my pants when there is a perfectly good stall not being used.
I have never read the menu at McDonald's, and I have no idea what the 31 flavors are. Who do I sue for having to squint my way through life. When I need help with something I can't do on my own, I bring a friend. If you do not have any friends, perhaps you should work on your personality.
I'm legally blind. The world, is designed for the average person. I have very little sympathy for those who do not learn to assimilate into the environs in which they are placed. You can't sue the world because you do not fit well in it.
Adapting to the environment and fighting to shape it are not mutually exclusive; they're two complementary approaches. Unfortunately, you can't rely only on people's goodwill and at some point, the best way to fight is to convince enough individuals that your cause is so important that the entire community should adopt laws to support it. And so, a long time ago, when the World was designed for the "average person" who at the time was the White Man, Women started to do it. And then Blacks did it. And Gays did it. And Handicapped did it. And, heck, even the White Man did it in order to protect himself from other White Men. And in the end, we now live in a much better world than the one we had before all rebellion and activism started.
You are a legally blind web-browser user. I used to be a web-browser programmer, and for several years I worked on CSS, a language that allowed browsers to implement the "User Agent Stylesheets" that you are probably familiar with since visually impaired users are the primary beneficiaries of the technology. You and millions of legally blind people can now surf, communicate and work through the web. You and I can share our views on this page. But how did that happen? Was it because of activists who in the 1990s pushed to pass Section 508, defining the accessibility requirements for software products in federal agencies? Was it because of programmers like me who sensitized their development teams to the issue? Or is it only based on your strength of character? For me, no doubt, this dialog is made possible, by and large, thanks to your remarkable and constant effort of adaptation to the world. But please don't dismiss the achievements brought by the rebellion of your peers and the goodwill of those who accompanied them.
Rebellion, goodwill and adaptation: in the pursuit of happiness, we need all three.