Melgross did say, "Very funny." I'm sure he knew you were 'twisting' the phrase; AP. I'm guessing that in spelling it out, he wanted to make sure the rest of us knew what it meant - especially since his daughter was taking AP classes. My daughters took similar classes, but I don't recall if they were called AP or not. That too was a long time ago. My daughters are in their early forties. One is a software engineer and the other is a paralegal. The AP courses give students a boost up.
Thank heavens for students like Bob and Melgross's daughter. This country needs them - badly.
As for sarcasm and bantering between intelligent people, I think it's a way to show 'affection' without being syrupy. That is, as long as it's kept light. There are times when AI members seem to want blood.
Correct. Many people have never heard of AP classes.
That seems like unnecessary work to me when they have other pieces of information that's relatively independent.
But maybe how you describe it is done to evaluate for admissions, how I describe it is how the school determines what the school will let you opt out of.
Of course, it's to evaluate admissions.
But, very few universities are now allowing "free" credits to those who sucessfully pass the AP tests. Those days are rapidly disappearing. The courses will have to be retaken.
When I graduated from Stuyvesant HS, back in 1967, we didn't have AP per se, but college level courses were offered. When I passed admissions tests for Zoology, chemistry, calculus, and physics, I was given credit for them. That's not likely to occur today.
In fact, it has been traditional to give an AP course grade a value of 110% vs the grade of an honors or standard course. That would raise the average of the student taking a number of those courses. But, the extra points are now regularly being stripped from the average by the admission offices.
But, very few universities are now allowing "free" credits to those who sucessfully pass the AP tests. Those days are rapidly disappearing. The courses will have to be retaken.
When I graduated from Stuyvesant HS, back in 1967, we didn't have AP per se, but college level courses were offered. When I passed admissions tests for Zoology, chemistry, calculus, and physics, I was given credit for them. That's not likely to occur today.
In fact, it has been traditional to give an AP course grade a value of 110% vs the grade of an honors or standard course. That would raise the average of the student taking a number of those courses. But, the extra points are now regularly being stripped from the average by the admission offices.
What's the point again? Did you ever properly challenge these people on this? I would be insulted to take a class and then basically have to take the same material again. The test should be enough of an equalizer in my opinion.
What's the point again? Did you ever properly challenge these people on this? I would be insulted to take a class and then basically have to take the same material again. The test should be enough of an equalizer in my opinion.
What do you mean by challenge people? I received credit (40 years ago!), as I said. But, universities have the right to deny any "credits" given by another institution. That includes courses taken, and passed, in another accredited university. It most definitely includes "college level" courses taken in a HS.
There is no guarantee that an AP course will meet the standards of any given university, no matter what the score on the AP test. This is a fact. They also use their own experience with the students who have been admitted to them over the years. If students were given credit for an AP course, but then did poorly after that in the subject, and they come from a particular school where the students, on average, did poorly in that subject, then they may very well decide to refuse credit for that AP course from applicants from that school. That is precisely what happens. And it should happen.
But, in addition, what we're being told, is that it's becoming less likely that any of the better institutions will accept those AP courses in lieu of the course they themselves teach.
It's coming down to this: They will look at the course load, external commitments of the student, the SAT's, and their average. AP courses, if given in a HS which is known to have high standards, will be given extra weight, but they are less likely to accept them as a substitute for their own course.
That's real life
I think we can all agree that different colleges and universities have different standards. That's why there are ratings for them, and why students want to get into one, but not another.
What do you mean by challenge people? I received credit (40 years ago!), as I said. But, universities have the right to deny any "credits" given by another institution. That includes courses taken, and passed, in another accredited university. It most definitely includes "college level" courses taken in a HS.
I mean challenge them on why they are taking away the benefits they once had, the way I thought you said was explained to you.
Quote:
If students were given credit for an AP course, but then did poorly after that in the subject, and they come from a particular school where the students, on average, did poorly in that subject, then they may very well decide to refuse credit for that AP course from applicants from that school. That is precisely what happens. And it should happen.
I understand that, but the standardized AP test should weed out those variations. The college I went to didn't give me credit for having taken the courses (I took a few), they gave me credit based on my AP test score, or at least allowed me to skip the relevant class as qualifying toward the degree. I took a few AP classes but only bothered to take the standardized test in one class.
What's the point again? Did you ever properly challenge these people on this? I would be insulted to take a class and then basically have to take the same material again. The test should be enough of an equalizer in my opinion.
I know I may just be a cat, but I think your (or the general) view of standards is inaccurate.
There is no such thing as a college-level class.
Nor is there any such thing as a highschool-level class that substitutes for a college-level one.
There are only classes, good and bad.
It may be that a highschool class in a good highschool is superior to the same course in a bad college or a bad course in a good college.
After all, there are excellent AP highschool teachers far more experienced than the grad student who may be randomly assigned to teach freshman lit.
An AP class at a good (or bad) highschool may (or may not) substitute for an equivalent course at a college.
None of which matters.
If you're going to college, you want to take good classes and learn stuff. If there's a good class, it doesn't really matter if you're entitled to pass out of it or not. Every student should take classes that make sense for them, and since there is no standard for AP classes or standard for college classes, each student and class should be independently judged. Why miss the opportunity for a great college class because you happened to regurgitate an essay on Lady Macbeth senior year of highschool?
There was an interesting article in one of the papers this morning that made the point that many college teachers responsible for accrediting high school AP classes are the same ones responsible for teaching those introductory classes at college. These low level college teachers are in competition for their jobs against high school AP teachers whose students increasingly pass out of their classes. Therefore, these college teachers are giving the highschool AP teachers a hard time because they don't want to loose their jobs.
Another irony is that it's harder for students from top schools like Bob's and Mel's to get into top colleges since colleges have an interest in not admitting every student from a particular highschool who applies (even though they may all be competitive). Ironically, Bob, in an AP-rich school must do twice as well as a student from a school that does not offer AP classes to get into a top college. If a high school has 100 good applicants and 15 are accepted, it is harder to be among those 15 than the 1 accepted student from a school in which 1 student has applied and does not offer any AP classes.
[QUOTE=JeffDM;1135825]I mean challenge them on why they are taking away the benefits they once had, the way I thought you said was explained to you.{/quote]
I've explained why they are doing this now. Times are very different than when I went to school. Standards for college are much higher.
Quote:
I understand that, but the standardized AP test should weed out those variations. The college I went to didn't give me credit for having taken the courses (I took a few), they gave me credit based on my AP test score, or at least allowed me to skip the relevant class as qualifying toward the degree. I took a few AP classes but only bothered to take the standardized test in one class.
Well, these tests aren't the end all. Colleges are simply finding that these courses aren't quite as rigorous as was hoped. Perhaps the AP tests should be harder than they are to weed out more.
I've looked at some of the curriculum, and to be fair, from where I'm at, looking down, they look easy, but perhaps not from the other end, looking up.
But, it's the prerogative of the admittance office to decide what they will allow, based on the schools standards.
The one problem here is that as more schools offer AP courses, it becomes harder to find teachers who are qualified to teach them at the HS level. I don't know how the tests are devised, or how they decide to figure out the difficulty level.
It's something like the Regents here in NY State. Colleges here accept that as meaning something, but few outside of the state do.
Doing well on a regents exam does mean something, but exactly what? My daughter, as do most of her friends, finds them to be absurdly easy, but those in some other schools don't. Many schools outside of the bigger cities here in the state don't even give them. So, it's interesting to find that, a few years ago, as an experiment, a number of high average suburban schools agreed to participate in the program for one year, as a study, and their students did poorly.
These are complex subjects.
One problem is that as the population increases there is more competition for each available seat after the 12th grade. So, standards have been going up. Years ago, the AP's were designed to help differentiate between those at the higher end, but the feeling is now that they don't help as much as was once thought. Many schools seem to be adding the courses, which are not monitored for quality.
If, as some think, the tests themselves fall short, then something will have to change.
Until then, more of the better institutions are apt to not give credit for the course.
I know I may just be a cat, but I think your (or the general) view of standards is inaccurate.
There is no such thing as a college-level class.
Nor is there any such thing as a highschool-level class that substitutes for a college-level one.
There are only classes, good and bad.
It may be that a highschool class in a good highschool is superior to the same course in a bad college or a bad course in a good college.
After all, there are excellent AP highschool teachers far more experienced than the grad student who may be randomly assigned to teach freshman lit.
An AP class at a good (or bad) highschool may (or may not) substitute for an equivalent course at a college.
None of which matters.
If you're going to college, you want to take good classes and learn stuff. If there's a good class, it doesn't really matter if you're entitled to pass out of it or not. Every student should take classes that make sense for them, and since there is no standard for AP classes or standard for college classes, each student and class should be independently judged. Why miss the opportunity for a great college class because you happened to regurgitate an essay on Lady Macbeth senior year of highschool?
There was an interesting article in one of the papers this morning that made the point that many college teachers responsible for accrediting high school AP classes are the same ones responsible for teaching those introductory classes at college. These low level college teachers are in competition for their jobs against high school AP teachers whose students increasingly pass out of their classes. Therefore, these college teachers are giving the highschool AP teachers a hard time because they don't want to loose their jobs.
Another irony is that it's harder for students from top schools like Bob's and Mel's to get into top colleges since colleges have an interest in not admitting every student from a particular highschool who applies (even though they may all be competitive). Ironically, Bob, in an AP-rich school must do twice as well as a student from a school that does not offer AP classes to get into a top college. If a high school has 100 good applicants and 15 are accepted, it is harder to be among those 15 than the 1 accepted student from a school in which 1 student has applied and does not offer any AP classes.
Luckily, since my school is a magnet school, which draws students from the surrounding areas to teach them at a higher level (just in case some of you don't know what I'm talking about, 'It follows'), I will actually graduate from my home school, which would probably fall under the category of a school from which there is only 1 applicant.
Also, Central Academy has an agreement with a local community college, DMACC, in which all the AP students will get credit for the class aside from the A.) High School credit and B.) the AP credit. The DMACC credit is transferable to all of the in-state (Iowa) schools and some out-of-state ones. The AP credit is useful, because as one accumulates them, awards are given for the # and average score on them. If all goes as expected, I should be a 'National AP Scholar' by the end of the year, and hopefully the 'AP State Scholar' when I graduate. I know someone who was a 2-year National AP Scholar (got it in 11th grade) who got a full ride scholarship to ISU without even applying.
Although many of you claim that the AP tests have been 'dumbed down' and standards are lower than when you were in school, I can assure you that they are not at all easy (except for calculus, but that may just because I'm a genius).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel
Well, these tests aren't the end all. Colleges are simply finding that these courses aren't quite as rigorous as was hoped. Perhaps the AP tests should be harder than they are to weed out more.
The quality of the courses that 'prepare' students for the tests should have nothing to do with colleges' decisions. It is reflected through the grade given on the test. Here are all the subjects, and you can click on one and then look at the grade distributions to see the general difficulty. The English Lang and Lit are probably the most difficult (as reflected by the # of 5's given). One should also note that as more and more people take these, the average grade will drop. Also, the higher the level of course (Calc BC, Compsci AB, Physics C, etc.) the average grade will rise, as only those who have done well previously will pass on to the next level, and are likely to succeed again.
IMO, colleges should accept the scores as credits, but be more stingy on it, so instead of giving credit for a 3,4 or 5, give only credit to a 4 or 5, or even just a 5 for the above specified courses. This would increase the standards without having to devise a new system that would eventually fail in the same way as this one is seeming to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duddits, the cat with opposable thumbs
Oh yeah.
iMacs are good.
Not 11 months wait good.
And as always, sorry for the long, disjointed post.
Also, Central Academy has an agreement with a local community college, DMACC, in which all the AP students will get credit for the class aside from the A.) High School credit and B.) the AP credit. The DMACC credit is transferable to all of the in-state (Iowa) schools and some out-of-state ones. The AP credit is useful, because as one accumulates them,
That's interesting, as a Community College is one that you go to because your grades aren't good enough to be accepted into a good 4 year school, or is for someone who intends to go into a career other than one which is academically rigorous.
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The quality of the courses that 'prepare' students for the tests should have nothing to do with colleges' decisions. It is reflected through the grade given on the test. Here are all the subjects, and you can click on one and then look at the grade distributions to see the general difficulty. The English Lang and Lit are probably the most difficult (as reflected by the # of 5's given). One should also note that as more and more people take these, the average grade will drop. Also, the higher the level of course (Calc BC, Compsci AB, Physics C, etc.) the average grade will rise, as only those who have done well previously will pass on to the next level, and are likely to succeed again.
"Should", and "do", are two different things. "Do" is becoming far more common that "should", I can assure you. I understand the scoring very well.
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IMO, colleges should accept the scores as credits, but be more stingy on it, so instead of giving credit for a 3,4 or 5, give only credit to a 4 or 5, or even just a 5 for the above specified courses. This would increase the standards without having to devise a new system that would eventually fail in the same way as this one is seeming to do.
I don't agree. Each college, or university, should use its own standards as to what they will allow. As you will find out, college is much different from HS, assuming you will go to a good one.
If you go to a mediocre one, and there are plenty of those around as well, then it likely won't matter if you took AP at all, as their standards are lower, and they don't expect many applicants at the highest levels.
That's interesting, as a Community College is one that you go to because your grades aren't good enough to be accepted into a good 4 year school, or is for someone who intends to go into a career other than one which is academically rigorous.
A lot of people think that about community colleges, but they're so much more, and not the "lesser" education they get pigeon-holed into. Example: my niece just graduated from Dartmouth and is going to medical school (neuro-pediatrics), but is heading to Honduras first to do charity work. Before she goes south, she's going to pick up a particular chemistry course at Santa Monica College that is applicable to all of the med schools she's been accepted at. SMC is quite a fine college in all respects -- not just for the supposedly grade-challenged.
A lot of people think that about community colleges, but they're so much more, and not the "lesser" education they get pigeon-holed into. Example: my niece just graduated from Dartmouth and is going to medical school (neuro-pediatrics), but is heading to Honduras first to do charity work. Before she goes south, she's going to pick up a particular chemistry course at Santa Monica College that is applicable to all of the med schools she's been accepted at. SMC is quite a fine college in all respects -- not just for the supposedly grade-challenged.
I'm not saying that their courses are poor. If they are accredited, then they must meet standards.
But, community colleges were created for the purposes that I expressed above, and they serve those purposes admirably.
Also, Central Academy has an agreement with a local community college, DMACC, in which all the AP students will get credit for the class aside from the A.) High School credit and B.) the AP credit. The DMACC credit is transferable to all of the in-state (Iowa) schools and some out-of-state ones. The AP credit is useful, because as one accumulates them,
That's interesting, as a Community College is one that you go to because your grades aren't good enough to be accepted into a good 4 year school, or is for someone who intends to go into a career other than one which is academically rigorous.
That's not entirely true, but beyond that, I don't think Bob is saying that he plans to "cash in" his AP credits at a community college, only that a broad array of universities do in fact accept them as technically equivalent. Were it his goal, he could go to a state school, pay very little or nothing, and graduate in 3 or even 2 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
But, community colleges were created for the purposes that I expressed above, and they serve those purposes admirably.
Community colleges were not created for - according to you - people with bad grades or non-academically rigorous career aspirations. Community colleges were created to broaden educational opportunities to people who might otherwise be excluded.
That's not entirely true, but beyond that, I don't think Bob is saying that he plans to "cash in" his AP credits at a community college, only that a broad array of universities do in fact accept them as technically equivalent. Were it his goal, he could go to a state school, pay very little or nothing, and graduate in 3 or even 2 years.
Maybe so, but even state schools are now charging fairly large amounts in many cases. As far as graduating in two or three years, well, ho ho. You're very flattering to him. As he's on this forum, I will treat him as an equal instead.
Quote:
Community colleges were not created for - according to you - people with bad grades or non-academically rigorous career aspirations. Community colleges were created to broaden educational opportunities to people who might otherwise be excluded.
Ah, as I said. those with poorer grades, and those who aren't interested in 4 year degrees, which are more complex, and challenging.
Ah, as I said. those with poorer grades, and those who aren't interested in 4 year degrees, which are more complex, and challenging.
I disagree. They also allow lots of after-work educational opportunities, sometimes which are unavailable at the more complex schools. When I was first certified in Advanced First Aid and in Advanced Lifesaving many years ago, both of which are very good skills to have, the more complex and challenging schools nearby simply did not offer anything similar because the faculty at those schools did not deem those topics worthy of study (I later became friends with a prof at one of these schools). An odd twist of the story is that the life of a prof at one of those schools was saved by a student in my class who went on to volunteer on a rescue squad and who never received any thanks from the more complex and challenged prof; the praise went to the hospital doctors: those who had attended the more challenging school the prof taught at but who had not actually done anything to save his life as it had already been saved.
Oh, and to bring this back on topic: any idea when the first revision of the new iMacs will come? I can't decide when to buy in.
Maybe so, but even state schools are now charging fairly large amounts in many cases.
I don't see why it matters how much a state school costs if I get in for free.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEL
As far as graduating in two or three years, well, ho ho. You're very flattering to him.
Not that hard to do. People have graduated from CC (that's central campus aka central academy) and gone into college as juniors before. And people who have started college as freshmen have been able to graduate in 3 or 3.5 years anyways.
Quote:
As he's on this forum, I will treat him as an equal instead.
Ahhh... that's sweet.
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Ah, as I said. those with poorer grades, and those who aren't interested in 4 year degrees, which are more complex, and challenging.
Yes, but only for some. Yes community colleges tailor well to people falling in the above categories, but they are so much more. For instance, say a person is going to college, they need to take some basic starter classes (Calculus, some general English, History, and Science classes). They know what state school they want to go to. They could take these classes at their school of choice for $X. They could go to a comm. college and take almost the exact same classes for the same amount of credit for $X/2.
Also, as a personal anecdote, my parents, neither of whom went to a university both recently needed to take classes to get certain certifications newly required for their jobs. Comm. college is PERFECT for this. They could take classes 2 or 3 nights a week, and be done in 4-6 weeks, and still work full time.
Third example: A person has no clue what they want to do in life. Instead of wasting their time and $$ at a state school, they can follow in the path of the person in the first example, work, and find some direction without all the pressure and expense of a state school.
I disagree. They also allow lots of after-work educational opportunities, sometimes which are unavailable at the more complex schools. When I was first certified in Advanced First Aid and in Advanced Lifesaving many years ago, both of which are very good skills to have, the more complex and challenging schools nearby simply did not offer anything similar because the faculty at those schools did not deem those topics worthy of study (I later became friends with a prof at one of these schools). An odd twist of the story is that the life of a prof at one of those schools was saved by a student in my class who went on to volunteer on a rescue squad and who never received any thanks from the more complex and challenged prof; the praise went to the hospital doctors: those who had attended the more challenging school the prof taught at but who had not actually done anything to save his life as it had already been saved.
Oh, and to bring this back on topic: any idea when the first revision of the new iMacs will come? I can't decide when to buy in.
Not to be insulting, but that wasn't what I'm talking about.
That goes under the heading of simpler studies.
You get an Associates degree from a community college, unless there are now a few that offer 4 year degrees. You still must go to a 4 year institution to receive a Bachelors.
Advanced lifesaving, while certainly worthy, is not pre-med.
Maybe we will see something at Macworld.
Penyrn will be out in early November, so that should give Apple time to turn the entire Mac line around, except, possibly, the Mini.
I don't see why it matters how much a state school costs if I get in for free.
Not that hard to do. People have graduated from CC (that's central campus aka central academy) and gone into college as juniors before. And people who have started college as freshmen have been able to graduate in 3 or 3.5 years anyways.
Ahhh... that's sweet.
Yes, but only for some. Yes community colleges tailor well to people falling in the above categories, but they are so much more. For instance, say a person is going to college, they need to take some basic starter classes (Calculus, some general English, History, and Science classes). They know what state school they want to go to. They could take these classes at their school of choice for $X. They could go to a comm. college and take almost the exact same classes for the same amount of credit for $X/2.
Also, as a personal anecdote, my parents, neither of whom went to a university both recently needed to take classes to get certain certifications newly required for their jobs. Comm. college is PERFECT for this. They could take classes 2 or 3 nights a week, and be done in 4-6 weeks, and still work full time.
Third example: A person has no clue what they want to do in life. Instead of wasting their time and $$ at a state school, they can follow in the path of the person in the first example, work, and find some direction without all the pressure and expense of a state school.
I don't want you to think I'm disrespecting you (to use the vernacular). I'm not.
If your grades are good enough, you can get in for free. It would be the equivalent of a full scholarship at a private institution, and that's good. But, unless your state is very generous, unlike others, not everyone can get in for free. Most all are charging for credits these days. Budget crunches have has a poor effect on higher education.
You are validating my statements about the community college system, though you my not realize it.
As I stated in my above post, you won't get pre-med in these schools. It's more like pre-pre-med. They simply can't offer the course work, and labs a well equipped 4 year school can.
I'm not saying that they don't serve a good purpose. They do.
As far as graduating in two or three years, well, ho ho. You're very flattering to him. As he's on this forum, I will treat him as an equal instead.
Not flattering at all, just simple math. Any student with 2 years of solid performance in AP classes may use those against a year of college that will accept them. Taking an extra course or so a semester could further accelerate graduation. however, I would imagine that most students who can do this don't, and for good reason. The point is not to graduate early, but to learn stuff and have a good college experience. But if your goal was to graduate early, and you racked up years of APs, it's not that big of a deal.
As for treating everyone as equal, I'm not sure what you mean by that. Any student with a boatload of AP credits is equally entitled to accelerate graduation in colleges that honor them. That's just the system, and has nothing to do with how anyone treats anyone else.
Personally, I don't care whether someone has a million AP credits or works in McDonalds. I take each post as it comes and from whatever source. And of course they're not equal. Everyone is different and every post is different. That someone happens to be swimming in AP credits or, for that matter, is a cat, should have no bearing on what they have to say. All that matters is what posters actually post, and that's I respond to:
No pig more equal than any other, but each post judged on its own merits.
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Originally Posted by melgross
Ah, as I said. those with poorer grades, and those who aren't interested in 4 year degrees, which are more complex, and challenging.
Those are two reasons for community colleges, but those are not the only two. There are many other as well.
Comments
Melgross did say, "Very funny." I'm sure he knew you were 'twisting' the phrase; AP. I'm guessing that in spelling it out, he wanted to make sure the rest of us knew what it meant - especially since his daughter was taking AP classes. My daughters took similar classes, but I don't recall if they were called AP or not. That too was a long time ago. My daughters are in their early forties. One is a software engineer and the other is a paralegal. The AP courses give students a boost up.
Thank heavens for students like Bob and Melgross's daughter. This country needs them - badly.
As for sarcasm and bantering between intelligent people, I think it's a way to show 'affection' without being syrupy. That is, as long as it's kept light. There are times when AI members seem to want blood.
Correct. Many people have never heard of AP classes.
That seems like unnecessary work to me when they have other pieces of information that's relatively independent.
But maybe how you describe it is done to evaluate for admissions, how I describe it is how the school determines what the school will let you opt out of.
Of course, it's to evaluate admissions.
But, very few universities are now allowing "free" credits to those who sucessfully pass the AP tests. Those days are rapidly disappearing. The courses will have to be retaken.
When I graduated from Stuyvesant HS, back in 1967, we didn't have AP per se, but college level courses were offered. When I passed admissions tests for Zoology, chemistry, calculus, and physics, I was given credit for them. That's not likely to occur today.
In fact, it has been traditional to give an AP course grade a value of 110% vs the grade of an honors or standard course. That would raise the average of the student taking a number of those courses. But, the extra points are now regularly being stripped from the average by the admission offices.
Of course, it's to evaluate admissions.
But, very few universities are now allowing "free" credits to those who sucessfully pass the AP tests. Those days are rapidly disappearing. The courses will have to be retaken.
When I graduated from Stuyvesant HS, back in 1967, we didn't have AP per se, but college level courses were offered. When I passed admissions tests for Zoology, chemistry, calculus, and physics, I was given credit for them. That's not likely to occur today.
In fact, it has been traditional to give an AP course grade a value of 110% vs the grade of an honors or standard course. That would raise the average of the student taking a number of those courses. But, the extra points are now regularly being stripped from the average by the admission offices.
What's the point again? Did you ever properly challenge these people on this? I would be insulted to take a class and then basically have to take the same material again. The test should be enough of an equalizer in my opinion.
What's the point again? Did you ever properly challenge these people on this? I would be insulted to take a class and then basically have to take the same material again. The test should be enough of an equalizer in my opinion.
What do you mean by challenge people? I received credit (40 years ago!), as I said. But, universities have the right to deny any "credits" given by another institution. That includes courses taken, and passed, in another accredited university. It most definitely includes "college level" courses taken in a HS.
There is no guarantee that an AP course will meet the standards of any given university, no matter what the score on the AP test. This is a fact. They also use their own experience with the students who have been admitted to them over the years. If students were given credit for an AP course, but then did poorly after that in the subject, and they come from a particular school where the students, on average, did poorly in that subject, then they may very well decide to refuse credit for that AP course from applicants from that school. That is precisely what happens. And it should happen.
But, in addition, what we're being told, is that it's becoming less likely that any of the better institutions will accept those AP courses in lieu of the course they themselves teach.
It's coming down to this: They will look at the course load, external commitments of the student, the SAT's, and their average. AP courses, if given in a HS which is known to have high standards, will be given extra weight, but they are less likely to accept them as a substitute for their own course.
That's real life
I think we can all agree that different colleges and universities have different standards. That's why there are ratings for them, and why students want to get into one, but not another.
What do you mean by challenge people? I received credit (40 years ago!), as I said. But, universities have the right to deny any "credits" given by another institution. That includes courses taken, and passed, in another accredited university. It most definitely includes "college level" courses taken in a HS.
I mean challenge them on why they are taking away the benefits they once had, the way I thought you said was explained to you.
If students were given credit for an AP course, but then did poorly after that in the subject, and they come from a particular school where the students, on average, did poorly in that subject, then they may very well decide to refuse credit for that AP course from applicants from that school. That is precisely what happens. And it should happen.
I understand that, but the standardized AP test should weed out those variations. The college I went to didn't give me credit for having taken the courses (I took a few), they gave me credit based on my AP test score, or at least allowed me to skip the relevant class as qualifying toward the degree. I took a few AP classes but only bothered to take the standardized test in one class.
What's the point again? Did you ever properly challenge these people on this? I would be insulted to take a class and then basically have to take the same material again. The test should be enough of an equalizer in my opinion.
I know I may just be a cat, but I think your (or the general) view of standards is inaccurate.
There is no such thing as a college-level class.
Nor is there any such thing as a highschool-level class that substitutes for a college-level one.
There are only classes, good and bad.
It may be that a highschool class in a good highschool is superior to the same course in a bad college or a bad course in a good college.
After all, there are excellent AP highschool teachers far more experienced than the grad student who may be randomly assigned to teach freshman lit.
An AP class at a good (or bad) highschool may (or may not) substitute for an equivalent course at a college.
None of which matters.
If you're going to college, you want to take good classes and learn stuff. If there's a good class, it doesn't really matter if you're entitled to pass out of it or not. Every student should take classes that make sense for them, and since there is no standard for AP classes or standard for college classes, each student and class should be independently judged. Why miss the opportunity for a great college class because you happened to regurgitate an essay on Lady Macbeth senior year of highschool?
There was an interesting article in one of the papers this morning that made the point that many college teachers responsible for accrediting high school AP classes are the same ones responsible for teaching those introductory classes at college. These low level college teachers are in competition for their jobs against high school AP teachers whose students increasingly pass out of their classes. Therefore, these college teachers are giving the highschool AP teachers a hard time because they don't want to loose their jobs.
Another irony is that it's harder for students from top schools like Bob's and Mel's to get into top colleges since colleges have an interest in not admitting every student from a particular highschool who applies (even though they may all be competitive). Ironically, Bob, in an AP-rich school must do twice as well as a student from a school that does not offer AP classes to get into a top college. If a high school has 100 good applicants and 15 are accepted, it is harder to be among those 15 than the 1 accepted student from a school in which 1 student has applied and does not offer any AP classes.
Oh yeah.
iMacs are good.
I've explained why they are doing this now. Times are very different than when I went to school. Standards for college are much higher.
I understand that, but the standardized AP test should weed out those variations. The college I went to didn't give me credit for having taken the courses (I took a few), they gave me credit based on my AP test score, or at least allowed me to skip the relevant class as qualifying toward the degree. I took a few AP classes but only bothered to take the standardized test in one class.
Well, these tests aren't the end all. Colleges are simply finding that these courses aren't quite as rigorous as was hoped. Perhaps the AP tests should be harder than they are to weed out more.
I've looked at some of the curriculum, and to be fair, from where I'm at, looking down, they look easy, but perhaps not from the other end, looking up.
But, it's the prerogative of the admittance office to decide what they will allow, based on the schools standards.
The one problem here is that as more schools offer AP courses, it becomes harder to find teachers who are qualified to teach them at the HS level. I don't know how the tests are devised, or how they decide to figure out the difficulty level.
It's something like the Regents here in NY State. Colleges here accept that as meaning something, but few outside of the state do.
Doing well on a regents exam does mean something, but exactly what? My daughter, as do most of her friends, finds them to be absurdly easy, but those in some other schools don't. Many schools outside of the bigger cities here in the state don't even give them. So, it's interesting to find that, a few years ago, as an experiment, a number of high average suburban schools agreed to participate in the program for one year, as a study, and their students did poorly.
These are complex subjects.
One problem is that as the population increases there is more competition for each available seat after the 12th grade. So, standards have been going up. Years ago, the AP's were designed to help differentiate between those at the higher end, but the feeling is now that they don't help as much as was once thought. Many schools seem to be adding the courses, which are not monitored for quality.
If, as some think, the tests themselves fall short, then something will have to change.
Until then, more of the better institutions are apt to not give credit for the course.
What was the joke? I didn't get a chance to read it before it got deleted. Don't worry, I'm a good sport.
I know I may just be a cat, but I think your (or the general) view of standards is inaccurate.
There is no such thing as a college-level class.
Nor is there any such thing as a highschool-level class that substitutes for a college-level one.
There are only classes, good and bad.
It may be that a highschool class in a good highschool is superior to the same course in a bad college or a bad course in a good college.
After all, there are excellent AP highschool teachers far more experienced than the grad student who may be randomly assigned to teach freshman lit.
An AP class at a good (or bad) highschool may (or may not) substitute for an equivalent course at a college.
None of which matters.
If you're going to college, you want to take good classes and learn stuff. If there's a good class, it doesn't really matter if you're entitled to pass out of it or not. Every student should take classes that make sense for them, and since there is no standard for AP classes or standard for college classes, each student and class should be independently judged. Why miss the opportunity for a great college class because you happened to regurgitate an essay on Lady Macbeth senior year of highschool?
There was an interesting article in one of the papers this morning that made the point that many college teachers responsible for accrediting high school AP classes are the same ones responsible for teaching those introductory classes at college. These low level college teachers are in competition for their jobs against high school AP teachers whose students increasingly pass out of their classes. Therefore, these college teachers are giving the highschool AP teachers a hard time because they don't want to loose their jobs.
Another irony is that it's harder for students from top schools like Bob's and Mel's to get into top colleges since colleges have an interest in not admitting every student from a particular highschool who applies (even though they may all be competitive). Ironically, Bob, in an AP-rich school must do twice as well as a student from a school that does not offer AP classes to get into a top college. If a high school has 100 good applicants and 15 are accepted, it is harder to be among those 15 than the 1 accepted student from a school in which 1 student has applied and does not offer any AP classes.
Luckily, since my school is a magnet school, which draws students from the surrounding areas to teach them at a higher level (just in case some of you don't know what I'm talking about, 'It follows'
Also, Central Academy has an agreement with a local community college, DMACC, in which all the AP students will get credit for the class aside from the A.) High School credit and B.) the AP credit. The DMACC credit is transferable to all of the in-state (Iowa) schools and some out-of-state ones. The AP credit is useful, because as one accumulates them, awards are given for the # and average score on them. If all goes as expected, I should be a 'National AP Scholar' by the end of the year, and hopefully the 'AP State Scholar' when I graduate. I know someone who was a 2-year National AP Scholar (got it in 11th grade) who got a full ride scholarship to ISU without even applying.
Although many of you claim that the AP tests have been 'dumbed down' and standards are lower than when you were in school, I can assure you that they are not at all easy (except for calculus, but that may just because I'm a genius
Well, these tests aren't the end all. Colleges are simply finding that these courses aren't quite as rigorous as was hoped. Perhaps the AP tests should be harder than they are to weed out more.
The quality of the courses that 'prepare' students for the tests should have nothing to do with colleges' decisions. It is reflected through the grade given on the test. Here are all the subjects, and you can click on one and then look at the grade distributions to see the general difficulty. The English Lang and Lit are probably the most difficult (as reflected by the # of 5's given). One should also note that as more and more people take these, the average grade will drop. Also, the higher the level of course (Calc BC, Compsci AB, Physics C, etc.) the average grade will rise, as only those who have done well previously will pass on to the next level, and are likely to succeed again.
IMO, colleges should accept the scores as credits, but be more stingy on it, so instead of giving credit for a 3,4 or 5, give only credit to a 4 or 5, or even just a 5 for the above specified courses. This would increase the standards without having to devise a new system that would eventually fail in the same way as this one is seeming to do.
Oh yeah.
iMacs are good.
Not 11 months wait good.
And as always, sorry for the long, disjointed post.
Also, Central Academy has an agreement with a local community college, DMACC, in which all the AP students will get credit for the class aside from the A.) High School credit and B.) the AP credit. The DMACC credit is transferable to all of the in-state (Iowa) schools and some out-of-state ones. The AP credit is useful, because as one accumulates them,
That's interesting, as a Community College is one that you go to because your grades aren't good enough to be accepted into a good 4 year school, or is for someone who intends to go into a career other than one which is academically rigorous.
The quality of the courses that 'prepare' students for the tests should have nothing to do with colleges' decisions. It is reflected through the grade given on the test. Here are all the subjects, and you can click on one and then look at the grade distributions to see the general difficulty. The English Lang and Lit are probably the most difficult (as reflected by the # of 5's given). One should also note that as more and more people take these, the average grade will drop. Also, the higher the level of course (Calc BC, Compsci AB, Physics C, etc.) the average grade will rise, as only those who have done well previously will pass on to the next level, and are likely to succeed again.
"Should", and "do", are two different things. "Do" is becoming far more common that "should", I can assure you. I understand the scoring very well.
IMO, colleges should accept the scores as credits, but be more stingy on it, so instead of giving credit for a 3,4 or 5, give only credit to a 4 or 5, or even just a 5 for the above specified courses. This would increase the standards without having to devise a new system that would eventually fail in the same way as this one is seeming to do.
I don't agree. Each college, or university, should use its own standards as to what they will allow. As you will find out, college is much different from HS, assuming you will go to a good one.
If you go to a mediocre one, and there are plenty of those around as well, then it likely won't matter if you took AP at all, as their standards are lower, and they don't expect many applicants at the highest levels.
That's interesting, as a Community College is one that you go to because your grades aren't good enough to be accepted into a good 4 year school, or is for someone who intends to go into a career other than one which is academically rigorous.
A lot of people think that about community colleges, but they're so much more, and not the "lesser" education they get pigeon-holed into. Example: my niece just graduated from Dartmouth and is going to medical school (neuro-pediatrics), but is heading to Honduras first to do charity work. Before she goes south, she's going to pick up a particular chemistry course at Santa Monica College that is applicable to all of the med schools she's been accepted at. SMC is quite a fine college in all respects -- not just for the supposedly grade-challenged.
A lot of people think that about community colleges, but they're so much more, and not the "lesser" education they get pigeon-holed into. Example: my niece just graduated from Dartmouth and is going to medical school (neuro-pediatrics), but is heading to Honduras first to do charity work. Before she goes south, she's going to pick up a particular chemistry course at Santa Monica College that is applicable to all of the med schools she's been accepted at. SMC is quite a fine college in all respects -- not just for the supposedly grade-challenged.
I'm not saying that their courses are poor. If they are accredited, then they must meet standards.
But, community colleges were created for the purposes that I expressed above, and they serve those purposes admirably.
What was the joke? I didn't get a chance to read it before it got deleted. Don't worry, I'm a good sport.
Never as funny on retrospect, so I'll just provide the outline and you can fill in the dots:
I pretended not to understand what AP meant.
I wondered if it meant "Achieving Poorly"
I suggested that since you found your "Achieving Poorly" classes too easy, perhaps you should take regular classes instead.
Site moderation comment deleted
Also, Central Academy has an agreement with a local community college, DMACC, in which all the AP students will get credit for the class aside from the A.) High School credit and B.) the AP credit. The DMACC credit is transferable to all of the in-state (Iowa) schools and some out-of-state ones. The AP credit is useful, because as one accumulates them,
That's interesting, as a Community College is one that you go to because your grades aren't good enough to be accepted into a good 4 year school, or is for someone who intends to go into a career other than one which is academically rigorous.
That's not entirely true, but beyond that, I don't think Bob is saying that he plans to "cash in" his AP credits at a community college, only that a broad array of universities do in fact accept them as technically equivalent. Were it his goal, he could go to a state school, pay very little or nothing, and graduate in 3 or even 2 years.
But, community colleges were created for the purposes that I expressed above, and they serve those purposes admirably.
Community colleges were not created for - according to you - people with bad grades or non-academically rigorous career aspirations. Community colleges were created to broaden educational opportunities to people who might otherwise be excluded.
That's not entirely true, but beyond that, I don't think Bob is saying that he plans to "cash in" his AP credits at a community college, only that a broad array of universities do in fact accept them as technically equivalent. Were it his goal, he could go to a state school, pay very little or nothing, and graduate in 3 or even 2 years.
Maybe so, but even state schools are now charging fairly large amounts in many cases. As far as graduating in two or three years, well, ho ho. You're very flattering to him. As he's on this forum, I will treat him as an equal instead.
Community colleges were not created for - according to you - people with bad grades or non-academically rigorous career aspirations. Community colleges were created to broaden educational opportunities to people who might otherwise be excluded.
Ah, as I said. those with poorer grades, and those who aren't interested in 4 year degrees, which are more complex, and challenging.
Ah, as I said. those with poorer grades, and those who aren't interested in 4 year degrees, which are more complex, and challenging.
I disagree. They also allow lots of after-work educational opportunities, sometimes which are unavailable at the more complex schools. When I was first certified in Advanced First Aid and in Advanced Lifesaving many years ago, both of which are very good skills to have, the more complex and challenging schools nearby simply did not offer anything similar because the faculty at those schools did not deem those topics worthy of study (I later became friends with a prof at one of these schools). An odd twist of the story is that the life of a prof at one of those schools was saved by a student in my class who went on to volunteer on a rescue squad and who never received any thanks from the more complex and challenged prof; the praise went to the hospital doctors: those who had attended the more challenging school the prof taught at but who had not actually done anything to save his life as it had already been saved.
Oh, and to bring this back on topic: any idea when the first revision of the new iMacs will come? I can't decide when to buy in.
Maybe so, but even state schools are now charging fairly large amounts in many cases.
I don't see why it matters how much a state school costs if I get in for free.
As far as graduating in two or three years, well, ho ho. You're very flattering to him.
Not that hard to do. People have graduated from CC (that's central campus aka central academy) and gone into college as juniors before. And people who have started college as freshmen have been able to graduate in 3 or 3.5 years anyways.
As he's on this forum, I will treat him as an equal instead.
Ahhh... that's sweet.
Ah, as I said. those with poorer grades, and those who aren't interested in 4 year degrees, which are more complex, and challenging.
Yes, but only for some. Yes community colleges tailor well to people falling in the above categories, but they are so much more. For instance, say a person is going to college, they need to take some basic starter classes (Calculus, some general English, History, and Science classes). They know what state school they want to go to. They could take these classes at their school of choice for $X. They could go to a comm. college and take almost the exact same classes for the same amount of credit for $X/2.
Also, as a personal anecdote, my parents, neither of whom went to a university both recently needed to take classes to get certain certifications newly required for their jobs. Comm. college is PERFECT for this. They could take classes 2 or 3 nights a week, and be done in 4-6 weeks, and still work full time.
Third example: A person has no clue what they want to do in life. Instead of wasting their time and $$ at a state school, they can follow in the path of the person in the first example, work, and find some direction without all the pressure and expense of a state school.
I could give more, but you get the idea. (read about it here.)
I disagree. They also allow lots of after-work educational opportunities, sometimes which are unavailable at the more complex schools. When I was first certified in Advanced First Aid and in Advanced Lifesaving many years ago, both of which are very good skills to have, the more complex and challenging schools nearby simply did not offer anything similar because the faculty at those schools did not deem those topics worthy of study (I later became friends with a prof at one of these schools). An odd twist of the story is that the life of a prof at one of those schools was saved by a student in my class who went on to volunteer on a rescue squad and who never received any thanks from the more complex and challenged prof; the praise went to the hospital doctors: those who had attended the more challenging school the prof taught at but who had not actually done anything to save his life as it had already been saved.
Oh, and to bring this back on topic: any idea when the first revision of the new iMacs will come? I can't decide when to buy in.
Not to be insulting, but that wasn't what I'm talking about.
That goes under the heading of simpler studies.
You get an Associates degree from a community college, unless there are now a few that offer 4 year degrees. You still must go to a 4 year institution to receive a Bachelors.
Advanced lifesaving, while certainly worthy, is not pre-med.
Maybe we will see something at Macworld.
Penyrn will be out in early November, so that should give Apple time to turn the entire Mac line around, except, possibly, the Mini.
I don't see why it matters how much a state school costs if I get in for free.
Not that hard to do. People have graduated from CC (that's central campus aka central academy) and gone into college as juniors before. And people who have started college as freshmen have been able to graduate in 3 or 3.5 years anyways.
Ahhh... that's sweet.
Yes, but only for some. Yes community colleges tailor well to people falling in the above categories, but they are so much more. For instance, say a person is going to college, they need to take some basic starter classes (Calculus, some general English, History, and Science classes). They know what state school they want to go to. They could take these classes at their school of choice for $X. They could go to a comm. college and take almost the exact same classes for the same amount of credit for $X/2.
Also, as a personal anecdote, my parents, neither of whom went to a university both recently needed to take classes to get certain certifications newly required for their jobs. Comm. college is PERFECT for this. They could take classes 2 or 3 nights a week, and be done in 4-6 weeks, and still work full time.
Third example: A person has no clue what they want to do in life. Instead of wasting their time and $$ at a state school, they can follow in the path of the person in the first example, work, and find some direction without all the pressure and expense of a state school.
I could give more, but you get the idea. (read about it here.)
I don't want you to think I'm disrespecting you (to use the vernacular). I'm not.
If your grades are good enough, you can get in for free. It would be the equivalent of a full scholarship at a private institution, and that's good. But, unless your state is very generous, unlike others, not everyone can get in for free. Most all are charging for credits these days. Budget crunches have has a poor effect on higher education.
You are validating my statements about the community college system, though you my not realize it.
As I stated in my above post, you won't get pre-med in these schools. It's more like pre-pre-med. They simply can't offer the course work, and labs a well equipped 4 year school can.
I'm not saying that they don't serve a good purpose. They do.
As far as graduating in two or three years, well, ho ho. You're very flattering to him. As he's on this forum, I will treat him as an equal instead.
Not flattering at all, just simple math. Any student with 2 years of solid performance in AP classes may use those against a year of college that will accept them. Taking an extra course or so a semester could further accelerate graduation. however, I would imagine that most students who can do this don't, and for good reason. The point is not to graduate early, but to learn stuff and have a good college experience. But if your goal was to graduate early, and you racked up years of APs, it's not that big of a deal.
As for treating everyone as equal, I'm not sure what you mean by that. Any student with a boatload of AP credits is equally entitled to accelerate graduation in colleges that honor them. That's just the system, and has nothing to do with how anyone treats anyone else.
Personally, I don't care whether someone has a million AP credits or works in McDonalds. I take each post as it comes and from whatever source. And of course they're not equal. Everyone is different and every post is different. That someone happens to be swimming in AP credits or, for that matter, is a cat, should have no bearing on what they have to say. All that matters is what posters actually post, and that's I respond to:
No pig more equal than any other, but each post judged on its own merits.
Ah, as I said. those with poorer grades, and those who aren't interested in 4 year degrees, which are more complex, and challenging.
Those are two reasons for community colleges, but those are not the only two. There are many other as well.