Mini tower development thread (headless iMac not xMac)
Okay...all you folks that want a mini tower you can build one. Here's the thread to get organized.
I've been looking at the mini (now that I kinda own one) and I think that we can build a tower out of it. The Mini includes a PCI Express Mini slot for the 802.11g card. This comes with one PCIe lane...which isn't optimal but should allow you to do a 4 slot expansion like they do with Expresscards. Slooow for gamers but for those folks that want to stick some A/D converters. MIDI interface, etc in there it should be "good enough" (yes snoopy, I'm looking at you).
Then its a matter of designing a case that will securely hold a mini with the lid off and hold a couple/four 3.5" drives and provide power to the bus and drives. Non-destructive would be best since I would think most folks want to be able to un-frankenstein their mini if they want.
The HTPC forum at AVSForum got together and had some HTPC cases fab'd with VFDs etc. If there are so many folks that want a headless iMac then it should be doable among the Apple forums.
Here is a PE-MINI to PE X1 adapter with flex cable (alllll the way at the bottom).
http://www.adexelec.com/pciexp.htm
Then we need the circuitry found in the expresscard to multiple slot adaptors to get more than one usable 1x slot.
For a quick and dirty test we can connect it to this and see if we can get one of the Mac Pro graphics cards to work*.
http://www.orbitmicro.com/global/pci...er-p-1648.html
Now my mini is at my dad's house so experimenting is tougher for me although I'll see if the local chains still has an older mini I can buy on close out after work today. I kinda doubt it since I got the second to last one from the closest store to me a week ago. I may buy all the pieces anyway but I doubt I'll drive out to my dad's until thanksgiving which is a ways away. By then I hope someone else has a X1900XT running on their mini.
Plus I don't really want to brick my dad's mini even if I bought it for him.
Vinea
* I actually have a 7300GT card from a Mac Pro I can use for experimentation. NOTE: I believe we'll have to add power but the mini to x1 connector has posts for that...but you'll have to use another power supply.
I've been looking at the mini (now that I kinda own one) and I think that we can build a tower out of it. The Mini includes a PCI Express Mini slot for the 802.11g card. This comes with one PCIe lane...which isn't optimal but should allow you to do a 4 slot expansion like they do with Expresscards. Slooow for gamers but for those folks that want to stick some A/D converters. MIDI interface, etc in there it should be "good enough" (yes snoopy, I'm looking at you).
Then its a matter of designing a case that will securely hold a mini with the lid off and hold a couple/four 3.5" drives and provide power to the bus and drives. Non-destructive would be best since I would think most folks want to be able to un-frankenstein their mini if they want.
The HTPC forum at AVSForum got together and had some HTPC cases fab'd with VFDs etc. If there are so many folks that want a headless iMac then it should be doable among the Apple forums.
Here is a PE-MINI to PE X1 adapter with flex cable (alllll the way at the bottom).
http://www.adexelec.com/pciexp.htm
Then we need the circuitry found in the expresscard to multiple slot adaptors to get more than one usable 1x slot.
For a quick and dirty test we can connect it to this and see if we can get one of the Mac Pro graphics cards to work*.
http://www.orbitmicro.com/global/pci...er-p-1648.html
Now my mini is at my dad's house so experimenting is tougher for me although I'll see if the local chains still has an older mini I can buy on close out after work today. I kinda doubt it since I got the second to last one from the closest store to me a week ago. I may buy all the pieces anyway but I doubt I'll drive out to my dad's until thanksgiving which is a ways away. By then I hope someone else has a X1900XT running on their mini.
Plus I don't really want to brick my dad's mini even if I bought it for him.
Vinea
* I actually have a 7300GT card from a Mac Pro I can use for experimentation. NOTE: I believe we'll have to add power but the mini to x1 connector has posts for that...but you'll have to use another power supply.
Comments
Sounds easier / faster to build a hack. But if the audio stuff works that is really cool... maybe someone can actually use it.
http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/104...ast/index.html
If I could find a mac mini logic board cheap I'd be tempted to try this.
This sort of enthusiasm I love to see!
I'm so close to buying my first Mini. If I do, count me in on the project. I'm busy right now but have built computers before and have some circuit design and fabrication experience.
Of course, Apple might beat us to it tonight!
As we say here 'more power to you!
Cool thinking, but the graphics card stuff is completely out. You can't convert pci-express x1 -> x16 for graphics cards, because there isn't enough lanes nor will it be fast enough. It would be like trying to open up hover dam through a pvc pipe. You run a heavy risk of hurting your graphics card and pci-express lane by attempting this. So unless you have the money to burn i do NOT recommend it.
Sounds easier / faster to build a hack. But if the audio stuff works that is really cool... maybe someone can actually use it.
Well...there is that x1 7300GT that ghost03 found but I doubt it would run under OSX.
Personally I think the bottleneck would make the X1900XT kinda pointless over the 7300GT except for...well...bragging rights. But hey...you can sorta play HL and F.E.A.R. at 1024x768. Prey not so much. Either way a heck of a lot better than the GMA 950 will do.
Somewhere is a benchmark with x1-x16 that either Tomshardware or Anandtech did back when PCIe was new. The did it by physically taping off the other lanes and running with various PCIe vid cards. The benches were about the same as the 7300GT above but with older cards.
Plus the Expresscard to PCIe bays have x16 slots and are used for GPUs...and you can run one off the Mac Book Pro. There's one for the 7300GT since its only 1 wide and not a double.
http://www.magma.com/products/pciexp...ox1/index.html
Since I have an EFI 7300GT I can test it out if I get the other parts. If its not like $300 for the board I'll go buy one and crack open my dad's mini and find power for the board. Probably with an older PC.
Vinea
Technically I think this is current hardware.
Um...perhaps you're right. I don't mind if a mod moves it but technically we haven't built it yet either.
Um...perhaps you're right. I don't mind if a mod moves it but technically we haven't built it yet either.
I agree that in a sense, this is future hardware. Only, you don't want just to talk about it!
The best things come in pairs. I'd want:
* Dual monitors support - the mini can't do it, though an iMac can.
* Dual HDD - SATA, easily swappable like the Pro
* Dual Core CPU - with a CTO option for Quad. Easily swappable, for future upgrades
* Dual PCI slots - graphics card + 1 other
* Single optical drive - this is the exception. I don't think most people need 2
* up to 8GB of RAM (4GB is too little for the lifetime of this machine)
Sell if for £700-£800 and I'd buy one tomorrow.
Seems like reasonable requirements to start with.
- Dual HDD - SATA, easily swappable like the Pro. I would add with sound dampening.
- Dual Core CPU - Merom since we're starting with a Mini...
- Dual PCI Slots - 1 x16 (double-wide) and 1 x8, both sharing the teeny 1 lane we have to work with. Maybe more slots? I dunno...250MB/sec sounds fast until you put a GPU in there...
- Single optical drive - full sized perhaps
- Kit form - remove mini from case and screw into new case. All cabling included. No drives.
- Slim tower design, not cube, to fit full length cards.
- £300/$600 target price. Less if possible but with qty so low we're not likely to get any discounts so full retail on everything if not more for custom circuits. Probably need to do at least a run of 100 to get any done at all.
Would like to have only one power supply/cord but requirement 5 likely means two power cords (one with the mini brick to boot) which is suboptimal. If we want a GPU then we want to supply at least 55W. At least we can get a quiet one.We'll likely lose the ability for wireless unless there's a 802.11G/N PCIe card made for the Mac Pro. On the other hand, with only 1 PCIe lane to work with do you really want to try to do graphics AND 100Mb networking on the same 250MB pipe?
Is this thread so dead you have to quote posts from other threads to keep it alive?
Jeez give it more than 2 hours to declare a thread dead. What with the iPod announcement today to boot I'm surprised ANYONE answered. I'm clicking gizmodo more than I should hoping some pre-announcement reporting (other than Mossberg is as tall as a sleestack and looks like one to boot).
But where else should we get requirements but from the two big Cube/Tower/xMac threads?
Vinea
I myself have wondered if it was possible for a third party to engineer a 'minitower' that plugs into the mini and allows for the expansion these threads keep asking for.
This discussion should be interesting.
I was going to ask why we needed another headless iMac thread, and then realized that this was focused on the community building it ourselves.
I myself have wondered if it was possible for a third party to engineer a 'minitower' that plugs into the mini and allows for the expansion these threads keep asking for.
This discussion should be interesting.
I didn't think it was reasonable until I started looking at upgrading the memory in the mini and noticed that airport card in the many pictures and thought "hmm...I should replace that with a 802.11N card if I have the thing open anyway...let me google that" which took me to PCI Express Mini Cards...and then this thread...
Hopefully both interesting and productive. I would like a headless mac too.
I was going to ask why we needed another headless iMac thread....
Me too (and three) I was **SO** ready to come down like a ton of bricks on seeing YAFHIT (yet another effing headless iMac thread) but the OP has some interesting ideas that I, for one, would really love to see expanded on...
Not worth a pile of dog... but you get my stamp of approval!
Dave
Could there be any legal ramifications affecting a project like this. Apple must have a large legal department.
I don't mean if it were a do it yourself project, but if AI member(s) built this for sale.
I don't have the tech expertise to build one myself, but I'd buy one in a heartbeat - just to get the dual monitor support. The rest would be absolute frosting on the cake.
Edit: What about selling plans for a DIY Mid-tower? Do you think Apple would stand still for that?
Vinea,
Could there be any legal ramifications affecting a project like this. Apple must have a large legal department.
I don't mean if it were a do it yourself project, but if AI member(s) built this for sale.
I don't have the tech expertise to build one myself, but I'd buy one in a heartbeat - just to get the dual monitor support. The rest would be absolute frosting on the cake.
Edit: What about selling plans for a DIY Mid-tower? Do you think Apple would stand still for that?
I don't know, I'm a geek not a lawyer.
However, I don't believe that the tablet folks have been sued nor has various mini mods folks. Adding a full sized drive seems a relatively common/easy mod and there are several mini in a cube mods. Folks have a business doing case mods (high quality painting) on the mini. There's a company that sells 802.11N PCIe Express Mini upgrades for Minis and MBPs.
Here what we're suggesting is taking a stock mini, removing the case and attaching a 3.5" HDD and a bus expander to the PCI Express Mini Card slot and putting it all into a new case. The heart of the machine is still 100% Apple...and given that I'm a software geek without any soldering required.
But as I said: IANAL. I would consult one before I plunked down several thousand dollars to manufacture a kit/case though. The sufficiently paraniod would form a LLC or something to mitigate personal losses.
Once we get past the "Snap...this works!" phase we can figure all that out.
Edit: What about selling plans for a DIY Mid-tower? Do you think Apple would stand still for that?
I think that would be best. I think it would be great to have plans with specific parts on how to modify a mini to meet ones needs. A GREAT IDEA.
I think that would be best. I think it would be great to have plans with specific parts on how to modify a mini to meet ones needs. A GREAT IDEA.
Well...not that I don't like making a buck but why sell the plans if we as a community develop them together?
The two hard parts are the case and the x1 to multi-slot expander. These may need to be a custom job.
As it stands right now, it LOOKS like you can put a GPU on a mac mini if you can actually buy those two parts in the first post. It just would look kinda yucky if you duct taped the thing together.
I assume you mean £300/$600 in addition to the cost of the Mac Mini. Plus overhead and $$ for your time. $1800 ???? $2000 ?????
I assume you mean £300/$600 in addition to the cost of the Mac Mini.
Well yes. It depends on how much the new case and the expander thingy will cost. The HTPC case was made by some guy with a metal shop and anodized. I think it cost me $200 for just the front and I had to get medium end Antec case for the backside.
The card thingy likely isn't cheap as I can't imagine those guys sell many of those and we want to convert to 2+ slots which is more electronics. The companies that sell expresscard to PCIe expanders charge $$$ for them.
And a power supply to provide power to the PCIe slots.
So $600 is a Rough Order of Magnitude estimate/goal. You still need to add a vid card and a 3.5" drive or two as well. Over $600 and its clearly not worth it except for a few folks as a novelty. I'm hoping it's less but quality cases and the electronics aren't likely to be cheap.
Especially as the case likely has to be VERY custom to meet the design goal. The guys selling the iTablet aren't just charging for the digitizer but all the engineering and minimum run costs to make the thing.
Bad News: Even with the external power provided it wont provide enough juice for a x4, x8 or x16 card.
Signal wise it works. Power wise not so much. To create a new board to meet our power specs is several thousand. Now, the thing is to find a H/W guy that might be able to provide the power needed by cutting a trace on the X1 to X16 adapter and providing more juice. 55W+ juice.
Very Bad News: No one has a x1 to multiple PCIe slot expander. Folks can do a x1 to multiple PCI expander but even with the addressing the issue is with timing. So more than 1 slot is right out.
I didn't buy one yet but I'm going to look for a X1 to X16 with external power supply that can provide 55W.
I'll call Magma. They have one but boy is it pricey. $899.