The reason that that button sometimes is very useful, and sometimes is not is that for the best behavior it almost always needs programmer help. If you are writing a Cocoa application it will attempt to do something intelligent by looking into the window and getting the size of the objects there. This might or might not work out for the contents of a particular window. And if the program has custom views (many of the better looking ones do) the system will be unable to guess well.
For Carbon applications, the default is to have two window sizes, and to switch between them. Once you change one of them, then it will stay at that size when switched to. It can be a little confusing if you alternately use the resize-tab and the switching button.
And then and program can override the behavior of that button to do whatever it wishes. And in fact the best programs do. Once that is done it is up to the programmer to make it "feel right", which is always a mixed bag.
System Setting expands to show the content, with certain restrictions set by each programmer.
Unfotunately, that just isn't true any more, especially of Apple's own apps. The green button is yet another element of OS X that Apple have allowed to become an inconsistent, unhelpful mess.
This is how some of Apple's apps behave upon use of the green button:
Automator - maximises
Calculator - special case, switches between modes
Dictionary - maximises
iCal - maximises
iMovie - maximises
Mail - maximises both main window and compose new message window
Activity Monitor - maximises
Airport Admin - maximises
Audio Midi Setup - maximises height even though that's not necessary to see all content
Well yeah, but for all those that you have listed as maximizes, what behavior are you expecting? If there is no text content that is hidden by scrollbars, should the button do nothing, or should it size the window to fit the screen respecting the Dock (which is what your maximize label seems to indicate)?
Well yeah, but for all those that you have listed as maximizes, what behavior are you expecting? If there is no text content that is hidden by scrollbars, should the button do nothing, or should it size the window to fit the screen respecting the Dock (which is what your maximize label seems to indicate)?
I'm sorry, are you joking? You actually think any of those apps filling the screen with useless white space is justifiable when hitting the green button? Like you said, the green button should switch between user size and "smallest size necessary to display all content in the window". None of the apps I listed do that.
The Finder, Safari, Calculator and iTunes are the only Apple apps where the green button works like it should.
So you're saying that the green button is there to change window modes? Calculator and iTunes switch modes. Finder and Safari fit to the content of the window. How is that consistent?
So you're saying that the green button is there to change window modes? Calculator and iTunes switch modes. Finder and Safari fit to the content of the window. How is that consistent?
In iTunes, I guess there's an argument either way (how would you have "zoom to content" work in iTunes?), but with Calculator, there is no "zoom to content". There's no need for the "window" to get any bigger, or change shape at all for that matter (in a given mode). You might as well have the green button do something, and since "zoom to fit" involves changing the dimensions of a window, it makes sense to me to use it.
I don't think it's too much to have one button that does one of two things. If the green button only either switched modes or "zoomed to fit", users would quickly understand. It's easy to identify the type of apps that will change mode, and which will "zoom". The problem comes when the "zoom to fit" isn't actually implemented properly and you're not sure what's going to happen until you hit the green button, even if you're an experienced user. That's just bad UI design.
This discussion really help reaffirm what I think of that green button - avoid it like the plague. Use the mouse on the lower right corner and make the window do what you really want it to do.
Zoom is a good idea, and I do use it, but the implementation is often sucky. Even well executed, the function isn't really superior or a replacement to Maximize like some folks would have you believe.
Zoom is a lot better on a big screen than a small one. But most content can be viewed at varying levels of zoom (small z) and Zoom cannot read minds, so it can't elegantly handle the (numerous) situations where I'd like to scale the content and the window to fit the screen. So, it isn't an end-all, be-all resizing tool and will never be even if perfectly executed.
A typical procedure I go through in Preview:
drag window to upper left (gotta avoid overshooting screen edge - but why does the stupid window manager even allow let me go over it? It would be far easier to just throw the window on some side or corner of the screen)
drag bottom corner to fill screen
fit to screen
Zoom to clear the empty space left over due to aspect ratio
Note that the two first steps of that four-step sequence correspond to "dumb Maximize" as seen on Windows.
In contrast, a well-made Maximize function (which could be available from the Zoom button with a modifier key) could accomplish this whole sequence in one click. When I'm on the laptop screen, I'd use practically no Zoom if Maximize was available. Even the dumb version would be preferable to none at all.
Look at the number of complaints on this thread and say again how well it works
Wow. uh, you sure showed me. Again, it works fine for everything I use it for - web browsing and design, adobe apps, office, etc.
Interesting how this thread started out with you asking a question and now sounding more like a statement. All very interesting considering the "I have not switched yet, but will soon" stance. I smell something funny. hmm.... smells like agenda.
Wow. uh, you sure showed me. Again, it works fine for everything I use it for - web browsing and design, adobe apps, office, etc.
Interesting how this thread started out with you asking a question and now sounding more like a statement. All very interesting considering the "I have not switched yet, but will soon" stance. I smell something funny. hmm.... smells like agenda.
\
I have no agenda whatsoever... as I said, I plan to move to the Mac soon and I will do it anyway(personaly, I have never even tried the green button... I'm just trying to use this forum in order to understand some things better before I switch).
I'm only saying that your cocky "it works if you know how to use it" statement, has been contradicted over and over again...
I have no agenda whatsoever... as I said, I plan to move to the Mac soon and I will do it anyway(personaly, I have never even tried the green button... I'm just trying to use this forum in order to understand some things better before I switch).
I'm only saying that your cocky "it works if you know how to use it" statement, has been contradicted over and over again...
14 posts later and you pull my quote out to "show me". That is why I responded to a thread that has pretty much run its course. It is also interesting that my posts are the only ones you have replied to. It seems that you are unwilling to even think about the uses but rather just want to advance your idea that it does not work. hardly "just trying to ... understand some things better."
Wasn't aware of any pride or arrogance in my statement. Simply pointing out that it works differently than what people would expect coming from windows. In my time on the mac, I have never heard a single complaint about the widget, nor have i had issues with it.
While this thread shows that there are some inconsistencies with what to expect from the function, it is a far cry from the "does it ever do what it is supposed to do"? and the "many people claim it just doesn't work".
In fact, it does work as it is designed to - with programmer input for an individual application. It is much smarter for the Calculator app to switch modes that for it to blow up into a giant calculator app just as it makes sense for a safari page to snap to actual page size and for the Calendar to maximize. Nothing in this thread points to an idea that the button does not work, but that it works differently for applications that are designed for it to do so. Again, it works fine if you understand when to use it and what application do with it. Nothing "cocky" about that.
you can argue that it is not consistent because of the freedom the widget allows programmers and that is about it. cool?
It's not just his idea that it "doesn't work". It depends what you mean by "doesn't work". Obviously, when you press the button, something happens, so on that level it works. However, in my view the action of the button is so inconsistent that it is fair to label it as "it doesn't work".
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko
Simply pointing out that it works differently than what people would expect coming from windows.
This is true. I think it's good that it doesn't maximise. It just would be nice if it did what it was meant to do on more than a handful of applications. Just for the record, I've been a Mac user since 1993 and didn't really use Windows all that much until 1998.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko
In my time on the mac, I have never heard a single complaint about the widget
Well, now you have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko
Again, it works fine if you understand when to use it and what application do with it.
The button does work as it is intented. It's just that it works different to Windows version that confuses people. With large screen it is very intuitive, but with small laptop screens the windows behavior could be more appropriate.
Try reading this thread. It does not work as is intended. Several of Apple's own applications maximise when the appropriate action would be to zoom to fit.
It's not just his idea that it "doesn't work". It depends what you mean by "doesn't work". Obviously, when you press the button, something happens, so on that level it works. However, in my view the action of the button is so inconsistent that it is fair to label it as "it doesn't work".
ok, both of your ideas.
you could have saved yourself some typing by reading the following from my previous post. allow me to quote myself:
"Nothing in this thread points to an idea that the button does not work, but that it works differently for applications that are designed for it to do so. Again, it works fine if you understand when to use it and what application do with it."
"you can argue that it is not consistent because of the freedom the widget allows programmers and that is about it."
It is not fair to label it as broken. it works, but is application dependent. If you have ever played the old Nintendo 64 game Zelda, it had an "action" button that changed what it did depending on a scenario. The same logic applies here. it makes sense and it works (yeah, I know a game - but the logic behind it is the same and it is pretty solid). the people coming from windows will have a hard time understanding it, but it makes sense once you understand it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H
is true. I think it's good that it doesn't maximise. It just would be nice if it did what it was meant to do on more than a handful of applications. Just for the record, I've been a Mac user since 1993 and didn't really use Windows all that much until 1998.
it does what it is supposed to do. what the programmer specified for it to do, that is what it does. and in some apps it DOES maximize.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H
, now you have.
no kidding? i still have not seen the many he was talking about prior to this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H
if you want it to zoom and it won't.
Whatever. it will do what it is programmed to do. by "zoom" i suppose you mean maximize and some apps do that, but others have been programmed differently. I don't want my calculator to become a giant screen-filling app.
the button works fine, but it appears inconsistent to people who don't know any better. it is a widget that allows for individual programmer input.
Whatever. it will do what it is programmed to do. by "zoom" i suppose you mean maximize
And here is the fundamental problem. You do not understand what I am saying. If I meant maximise, I would have said that. Zoom to fit, means zoom to fit. It means make the window the right size to display all its contents, or as much as possible if the content is bigger than the available screen size.
The green button should zoom to fit. That is the appropriate action of the green button for all the apps I listed earlier (apart from calculator), but instead they simply blow up and fill the whole screen with useless white space.
And here is the fundamental problem. You do not understand what I am saying. If I meant maximise, I would have said that. Zoom to fit, means zoom to fit. It means make the window the right size to display all its contents, or as much as possible if the content is bigger than the available screen size.
The green button should zoom to fit. That is the appropriate action of the green button for all the apps I listed earlier (apart from calculator), but instead they simply blow up and fill the whole screen with useless white space.
The green button is broken.
iChat works. Which means that if iChat is showing two online buddies ( as it is now for me on bonjour) the "zoom" button reduces the size of the window to just show the bonjour buddies hiding the white space. Hit it again and it snaps back unless I have changed the window size manually, in which case it reverts back to System Setting. This is indeed the System Setting --> User Setting
Problem is: people dont know this algorithim. It seems broken even there, and not just to Windows users, because the zoom button, with it's big old plus button seems to be a maximise button and most people would expect the window to fill the screen, or enlarge vertically to show most information. On the AIM buddy list it does maximise to show all users (online or not) but also seems to resize horizontally for no apparant reason.
And, this plus button never changes state to tell us what state it is in - i.e. it's next action will be to user state, or system state. A tough UI challenge I know given that the minus type button means something else.
iChat works. Which means that if iChat is showing two online buddies ( as it is now for me on bonjour) the "zoom" button reduces the size of the window to just show the bonjour buddies hiding the white space. Hit it again and it snaps back unless I have changed the window size manually, in which case it reverts back to System Setting. This is indeed the System Setting --> User Setting
Problem is: people dont know this algorithim. It seems broken even there, and not just to Windows users, because the zoom button, with it's big old plus button seems to be a maximise button and most people would expect the window to fill the screen, or enlarge vertically to show most information. On the AIM buddy list it does maximise to show all users (online or not) but also seems to resize horizontally for no apparant reason.
And, this plus button never changes state to tell us what state it is in - i.e. it's next action will be to user state, or system state. A tough UI challenge I know given that the minus type button means something else.
That's interesting... many people claim it just doesn't work. I still wonder how well it works...
Of course it works! But.. If your decision to switch to Mac is based on whether the "green button" works or not, then maybe you should stick to Windows. IMHO.
Comments
For Carbon applications, the default is to have two window sizes, and to switch between them. Once you change one of them, then it will stay at that size when switched to. It can be a little confusing if you alternately use the resize-tab and the switching button.
And then and program can override the behavior of that button to do whatever it wishes. And in fact the best programs do. Once that is done it is up to the programmer to make it "feel right", which is always a mixed bag.
System Setting expands to show the content, with certain restrictions set by each programmer.
Unfotunately, that just isn't true any more, especially of Apple's own apps. The green button is yet another element of OS X that Apple have allowed to become an inconsistent, unhelpful mess.
This is how some of Apple's apps behave upon use of the green button:
Automator - maximises
Calculator - special case, switches between modes
Dictionary - maximises
iCal - maximises
iMovie - maximises
Mail - maximises both main window and compose new message window
Activity Monitor - maximises
Airport Admin - maximises
Audio Midi Setup - maximises height even though that's not necessary to see all content
Bluetooth file exchange - maximises
Disk Utility - maximises
Keychain Access - maximises
Netinfo Manager - maximises
Network Utility - maximises
ODBC Administrator - maximises
Printer Setup Utility - maximises
System Profiler - maximises
Terminal - maximises
Mac Help - maximises
Well yeah, but for all those that you have listed as maximizes, what behavior are you expecting? If there is no text content that is hidden by scrollbars, should the button do nothing, or should it size the window to fit the screen respecting the Dock (which is what your maximize label seems to indicate)?
I'm sorry, are you joking? You actually think any of those apps filling the screen with useless white space is justifiable when hitting the green button? Like you said, the green button should switch between user size and "smallest size necessary to display all content in the window". None of the apps I listed do that.
The Finder, Safari, Calculator and iTunes are the only Apple apps where the green button works like it should.
So you're saying that the green button is there to change window modes? Calculator and iTunes switch modes. Finder and Safari fit to the content of the window. How is that consistent?
In iTunes, I guess there's an argument either way (how would you have "zoom to content" work in iTunes?), but with Calculator, there is no "zoom to content". There's no need for the "window" to get any bigger, or change shape at all for that matter (in a given mode). You might as well have the green button do something, and since "zoom to fit" involves changing the dimensions of a window, it makes sense to me to use it.
I don't think it's too much to have one button that does one of two things. If the green button only either switched modes or "zoomed to fit", users would quickly understand. It's easy to identify the type of apps that will change mode, and which will "zoom". The problem comes when the "zoom to fit" isn't actually implemented properly and you're not sure what's going to happen until you hit the green button, even if you're an experienced user. That's just bad UI design.
Zoom is a lot better on a big screen than a small one. But most content can be viewed at varying levels of zoom (small z) and Zoom cannot read minds, so it can't elegantly handle the (numerous) situations where I'd like to scale the content and the window to fit the screen. So, it isn't an end-all, be-all resizing tool and will never be even if perfectly executed.
A typical procedure I go through in Preview:
drag window to upper left (gotta avoid overshooting screen edge - but why does the stupid window manager even allow let me go over it? It would be far easier to just throw the window on some side or corner of the screen)
drag bottom corner to fill screen
fit to screen
Zoom to clear the empty space left over due to aspect ratio
Note that the two first steps of that four-step sequence correspond to "dumb Maximize" as seen on Windows.
In contrast, a well-made Maximize function (which could be available from the Zoom button with a modifier key) could accomplish this whole sequence in one click. When I'm on the laptop screen, I'd use practically no Zoom if Maximize was available. Even the dumb version would be preferable to none at all.
That is strange. I have never heard a single complaint about the button. Who are these many?
It always works. Your just need to know what it does in order to understand when to use it.
Look at the number of complaints on this thread and say again how well it works
Look at the number of complaints on this thread and say again how well it works
Wow. uh, you sure showed me. Again, it works fine for everything I use it for - web browsing and design, adobe apps, office, etc.
Interesting how this thread started out with you asking a question and now sounding more like a statement. All very interesting considering the "I have not switched yet, but will soon" stance. I smell something funny. hmm.... smells like agenda.
Wow. uh, you sure showed me. Again, it works fine for everything I use it for - web browsing and design, adobe apps, office, etc.
Interesting how this thread started out with you asking a question and now sounding more like a statement. All very interesting considering the "I have not switched yet, but will soon" stance. I smell something funny. hmm.... smells like agenda.
I have no agenda whatsoever... as I said, I plan to move to the Mac soon and I will do it anyway(personaly, I have never even tried the green button... I'm just trying to use this forum in order to understand some things better before I switch).
I'm only saying that your cocky "it works if you know how to use it" statement, has been contradicted over and over again...
I have no agenda whatsoever... as I said, I plan to move to the Mac soon and I will do it anyway(personaly, I have never even tried the green button... I'm just trying to use this forum in order to understand some things better before I switch).
I'm only saying that your cocky "it works if you know how to use it" statement, has been contradicted over and over again...
14 posts later and you pull my quote out to "show me". That is why I responded to a thread that has pretty much run its course. It is also interesting that my posts are the only ones you have replied to. It seems that you are unwilling to even think about the uses but rather just want to advance your idea that it does not work. hardly "just trying to ... understand some things better."
Wasn't aware of any pride or arrogance in my statement. Simply pointing out that it works differently than what people would expect coming from windows. In my time on the mac, I have never heard a single complaint about the widget, nor have i had issues with it.
While this thread shows that there are some inconsistencies with what to expect from the function, it is a far cry from the "does it ever do what it is supposed to do"? and the "many people claim it just doesn't work".
In fact, it does work as it is designed to - with programmer input for an individual application. It is much smarter for the Calculator app to switch modes that for it to blow up into a giant calculator app just as it makes sense for a safari page to snap to actual page size and for the Calendar to maximize. Nothing in this thread points to an idea that the button does not work, but that it works differently for applications that are designed for it to do so. Again, it works fine if you understand when to use it and what application do with it. Nothing "cocky" about that.
you can argue that it is not consistent because of the freedom the widget allows programmers and that is about it. cool?
your idea that it does not work.
It's not just his idea that it "doesn't work". It depends what you mean by "doesn't work". Obviously, when you press the button, something happens, so on that level it works. However, in my view the action of the button is so inconsistent that it is fair to label it as "it doesn't work".
Simply pointing out that it works differently than what people would expect coming from windows.
This is true. I think it's good that it doesn't maximise. It just would be nice if it did what it was meant to do on more than a handful of applications. Just for the record, I've been a Mac user since 1993 and didn't really use Windows all that much until 1998.
In my time on the mac, I have never heard a single complaint about the widget
Well, now you have.
Again, it works fine if you understand when to use it and what application do with it.
Not if you want it to zoom and it won't.
The button does work as it is intented.
Try reading this thread. It does not work as is intended. Several of Apple's own applications maximise when the appropriate action would be to zoom to fit.
It's not just his idea that it "doesn't work". It depends what you mean by "doesn't work". Obviously, when you press the button, something happens, so on that level it works. However, in my view the action of the button is so inconsistent that it is fair to label it as "it doesn't work".
ok, both of your ideas.
you could have saved yourself some typing by reading the following from my previous post. allow me to quote myself:
"Nothing in this thread points to an idea that the button does not work, but that it works differently for applications that are designed for it to do so. Again, it works fine if you understand when to use it and what application do with it."
"you can argue that it is not consistent because of the freedom the widget allows programmers and that is about it."
It is not fair to label it as broken. it works, but is application dependent. If you have ever played the old Nintendo 64 game Zelda, it had an "action" button that changed what it did depending on a scenario. The same logic applies here. it makes sense and it works (yeah, I know a game - but the logic behind it is the same and it is pretty solid). the people coming from windows will have a hard time understanding it, but it makes sense once you understand it.
is true. I think it's good that it doesn't maximise. It just would be nice if it did what it was meant to do on more than a handful of applications. Just for the record, I've been a Mac user since 1993 and didn't really use Windows all that much until 1998.
it does what it is supposed to do. what the programmer specified for it to do, that is what it does. and in some apps it DOES maximize.
, now you have.
no kidding? i still have not seen the many he was talking about prior to this thread.
if you want it to zoom and it won't.
Whatever. it will do what it is programmed to do. by "zoom" i suppose you mean maximize and some apps do that, but others have been programmed differently. I don't want my calculator to become a giant screen-filling app.
the button works fine, but it appears inconsistent to people who don't know any better. it is a widget that allows for individual programmer input.
Whatever. it will do what it is programmed to do. by "zoom" i suppose you mean maximize
And here is the fundamental problem. You do not understand what I am saying. If I meant maximise, I would have said that. Zoom to fit, means zoom to fit. It means make the window the right size to display all its contents, or as much as possible if the content is bigger than the available screen size.
The green button should zoom to fit. That is the appropriate action of the green button for all the apps I listed earlier (apart from calculator), but instead they simply blow up and fill the whole screen with useless white space.
The green button is broken.
And here is the fundamental problem. You do not understand what I am saying. If I meant maximise, I would have said that. Zoom to fit, means zoom to fit. It means make the window the right size to display all its contents, or as much as possible if the content is bigger than the available screen size.
The green button should zoom to fit. That is the appropriate action of the green button for all the apps I listed earlier (apart from calculator), but instead they simply blow up and fill the whole screen with useless white space.
The green button is broken.
iChat works. Which means that if iChat is showing two online buddies ( as it is now for me on bonjour) the "zoom" button reduces the size of the window to just show the bonjour buddies hiding the white space. Hit it again and it snaps back unless I have changed the window size manually, in which case it reverts back to System Setting. This is indeed the System Setting --> User Setting
Problem is: people dont know this algorithim. It seems broken even there, and not just to Windows users, because the zoom button, with it's big old plus button seems to be a maximise button and most people would expect the window to fill the screen, or enlarge vertically to show most information. On the AIM buddy list it does maximise to show all users (online or not) but also seems to resize horizontally for no apparant reason.
And, this plus button never changes state to tell us what state it is in - i.e. it's next action will be to user state, or system state. A tough UI challenge I know given that the minus type button means something else.
iChat works. Which means that if iChat is showing two online buddies ( as it is now for me on bonjour) the "zoom" button reduces the size of the window to just show the bonjour buddies hiding the white space. Hit it again and it snaps back unless I have changed the window size manually, in which case it reverts back to System Setting. This is indeed the System Setting --> User Setting
Problem is: people dont know this algorithim. It seems broken even there, and not just to Windows users, because the zoom button, with it's big old plus button seems to be a maximise button and most people would expect the window to fill the screen, or enlarge vertically to show most information. On the AIM buddy list it does maximise to show all users (online or not) but also seems to resize horizontally for no apparant reason.
And, this plus button never changes state to tell us what state it is in - i.e. it's next action will be to user state, or system state. A tough UI challenge I know given that the minus type button means something else.
excellent points.
That's interesting... many people claim it just doesn't work. I still wonder how well it works...
Of course it works! But.. If your decision to switch to Mac is based on whether the "green button" works or not, then maybe you should stick to Windows. IMHO.