I don't really think he wants to boycott Leopard even though it is the title of this thread. He is simply pointing out an obvious lack of consistency in the UI. I like the look of Aqua too, but as it is currently. In Leopard, it looks like a mishmash of 2 ideas and not quite finished. Maybe some of this is on purpose. But what will never make sense is that some apps now have the iTunes bars and some don't. And there is no rhyme or reason. This is just simply and obvious error or they just need to "ship the thing."
Unfinnished is I suppose a matter of opinion
If he doesn't want to boycott Leopard, why put it in the title?
I never noticed that there were grey scroll bars in iTunes, it would seem that I don't use them and I have been in and out of iTunes a lot just recently. Bewildering that! maybe now that I have noticed them I will use them, where as with the "jellybean" effect I would have noticed them and might have used them. I find "|search" is where its at though
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko
I think he may have been praising Leopard like I was as well because there was time to overhaul the Ui and we were all waiting for the "top secret features" and just about everyone thought it would be a new UI. Instead, we have an old, used, iTunes UI with Aqua mixed in and iTunes elements in some, but not all apps.
You know what thought did, wet the bed and thought it was sweating!
Hype is a wonderful thing, but people need to keep it in check. I never really thought there was going to be a new UI in Leopard so I didn't get hyped up about it to the point of EXPECTING it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko
Just because someone can point this out doesn't mean they think they are better than Apple or that they need to work there. It is simply pointing out a mistake and this is a forum where that is allowed and happens often.
and just because there is one small thing that isn't up to a few nitpicking users over hyped expectations, among 300 plus new ones theres no need to blow it out of proportion. Do we know WHY its "still" there? Do Apple have a reason to keep it? Do we know if there IS a reason to keep it?
NO
Until we DO know for sure, how can we say its "broken" ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko
Apple will be fine. Leopard will sell. But until they fix this issue, it will still be slightly unfinished.
It will sell, I hope it sells by the container load because from everything I've seen it looks like a great improvement over Tiger and I'm REALLY happy with Tiger at the moment
You never had a point. Leopard isn't out yet. You're basing your entire thesis on a singular concept: that relatively benign UI inconsistencies make Leopard unworthy. For one, you haven't seen the rest. For two, nobody has ever released a version of software that needed no improvement. Apple is no exception. I assume you don't remember 10.0.
There's a group of you on AI who seem to think Apple is the God who led the hebrews out of Egypt, parting the Red Sea for them, dropping manna from heaven, etc. No: Apple is just a bunch of guys in Silicon Valley trying to turn a profit by being usability leaders. They can't make every pixel perfect or deliver a line of machines custom-tailored to your individual desires. They live in the same world as the rest of us. Have they lost the edge? By my judgement, not even close. If inconsistent UI is such a dreadful problem, I suggest you take it up with them, while the rest of us enjoy the overall niceness of Leopard.
If Apple is indeed on a train ride straight to hell -- as you are so concerned about based on a single observation of a tiny fraction of the product -- then get off your ass and do something about it. If it's such a pandemic, then there's room for someone to profit from a solution. Be that guy instead of the disenfranchised idol worshipper.
Those aqua scrollbars don't really bother me. These little things are what bothers me with Leopard:
1) The 3d dock. This is worse than the regular dock (with I also don't care for and would rather replace it with taskmenubar if it was available for OS X)
2) Translucent menubar. It worked fine as is. If anything, Apple should have increased it's thickness a few pixels.
3) Inability to just shade the folders like you could do with labels in classic (and also the inability to choose what the shading (label) color should be. I can't stand it when I've labeled folders and then when you are in column view, it looks tacky and messy.
Aqua was designed to go with those translucent Macs, needless to say Apple doesn't sell them anymore. Aqua has had its day. The blue Aqua scroll bars and buttons are outdated looking. It's time for a change.
That said, the whole ''boycott'' thing was more to get Apple's attention, than anything else, and rest assured they read these forums. It's the kind of "issue" I thought they would have solved before they shipped Leopard. I do expect them to address it in a point release, it's not unified enough. I also think they are very aware of it.
Still, Leopard is clearly better then Tiger, and Tiger was the best OS in the world. Ordered my 24" 2.8Ghz iMac Friday, should be here with Leopard installed by the 30th.
Walter, yes this is my first major update, but I've used Macs on and off over the years. This piece of information seems to be very important to you for some reason. No hard feelings Walter, I'm warming to your presence.
You never had a point. Leopard isn't out yet. You're basing your entire thesis on a singular concept: that relatively benign UI inconsistencies make Leopard unworthy. For one, you haven't seen the rest. For two, nobody has ever released a version of software that needed no improvement. Apple is no exception. I assume you don't remember 10.0.
There's a group of you on AI who seem to think Apple is the God who led the hebrews out of Egypt, parting the Red Sea for them, dropping manna from heaven, etc. No: Apple is just a bunch of guys in Silicon Valley trying to turn a profit by being usability leaders. They can't make every pixel perfect or deliver a line of machines custom-tailored to your individual desires. They live in the same world as the rest of us. Have they lost the edge? By my judgement, not even close. If inconsistent UI is such a dreadful problem, I suggest you take it up with them, while the rest of us enjoy the overall niceness of Leopard.
If Apple is indeed on a train ride straight to hell -- as you are so concerned about based on a single observation of a tiny fraction of the product -- then get off your ass and do something about it. If it's such a pandemic, then there's room for someone to profit from a solution. Be that guy instead of the disenfranchised idol worshipper.
Attention deficit disorder.
Simple as that. You pull out arguments out of thin air and then apply them to whomever. That is a clever way of masking the issue and of not having to actually think and reply to the stated issues and rebuttals.
I don't know anyone who doesn't think of Apple strictly as a for profit corporation. However, corporations, even in horizontal market segments, differ in their method of operations by quite a bit. Apple is a computer maker / software developer that prides itself in making products that excel and have an extremely high level of polish. Leopard lacks that. Compare to Aperture, which is simply an app.
I never said Leopard was unworthy. I even went on to praise the under the hood improvements and even that I was planning on being an early adopter. But when you can't keep up I guess you cannot be faulted for your shortcomings.
The whole point is to spotlight the fact that leopard looks unfinished and certainly is inconsistent in its looks. And I have seen all there is to see of Leopard apart from Apple internal.
Apple promised it would be different. It is not. Like I mentioned earlier, I am holding out hope that in the coming week, Apple will hold a press conference demonstrating the true new UI or address it in a point release. If not, no big deal, but it will certainly be annoying seeing these inconsistencies, knowing that it would not take that much effort to complete the look.
As far as Leopard not being out yet, I am aware of that. However, Apple just replaced their placeholder leopard stuff with what looks like the final deal leading up to launch. I don't see the desclaimer of "features subject to change" anymore either. Therefore, I think it is right to judge the product up to this point as it is what Apple is using to market it.
As far as the idol worshipping thing... dude, come back to earth.
If he doesn't want to boycott Leopard, why put it in the title?
To get the attention of Apple who does indeed read popular forums.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe
I never noticed that there were grey scroll bars in iTunes, it would seem that I don't use them and I have been in and out of iTunes a lot just recently. Bewildering that! maybe now that I have noticed them I will use them, where as with the "jellybean" effect I would have noticed them and might have used them. I find "|search" is where its at though
Just about everyone else noticed them. Especially those who do design work. They also have been added to portions of iLife 08. It is strange that some apps that look the same have them and some don't. and using old hat is not a good way of differentiating apps, of which that is not what they are trying to do anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe
You know what thought did, wet the bed and thought it was sweating!
ooooooooK...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe
Hype is a wonderful thing, but people need to keep it in check. I never really thought there was going to be a new UI in Leopard so I didn't get hyped up about it to the point of EXPECTING it.
Apple showed it and promised it at WWDC. End of story.\
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe
and just because there is one small thing that isn't up to a few nitpicking users over hyped expectations, among 300 plus new ones theres no need to blow it out of proportion. Do we know WHY its "still" there? Do Apple have a reason to keep it? Do we know if there IS a reason to keep it?
NO
Until we DO know for sure, how can we say its "broken" ?
The problem with the "one small thing" is that it is one of the first things you see.
Based on the fact that the look has made it slowly into more apps, I would think it is safe to say that Apple means to go that way and the only reason for keeping it is running out of time. There is no way around that one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe
It will sell, I hope it sells by the container load because from everything I've seen it looks like a great improvement over Tiger and I'm REALLY happy with Tiger at the moment
To get the attention of Apple who does indeed read popular forums.
"One Physical letter is worth a thousand emails or forum posts"
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko
Just about everyone else noticed them. Especially those who do design work. They also have been added to portions of iLife 08. It is strange that some apps that look the same have them and some don't. and using old hat is not a good way of differentiating apps, of which that is not what they are trying to do anyway.
I was about to make comment on the fact that you are wrong, but then realised I had made the mistake of thinking you ment iWork 08 because the blue scroll bars a deffinately in Pages, Numbers and Keynote.
I suppose this does allow your point to remain, its not across the board which is fair enough.
But then I don't understand why people complain about the brushed alu effect, I don't "see" it, possibly because I'm getting on with using the app?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko
ooooooooK...
old quote, basically, just because people THINK something should happen doesn't mean it will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko
Apple showed it and promised it at WWDC. End of story.\
REALLY? got a link for that keynote, you'd care to share and a pointer in the direction of the time it happened at, cos I must have missed that when I was watching it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko
The problem with the "one small thing" is that it is one of the first things you see.
A matter of opinion really.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko
Based on the fact that the look has made it slowly into more apps, I would think it is safe to say that Apple means to go that way and the only reason for keeping it is running out of time. There is no way around that one.
So no change there then, its still happening SLOWLY, oh except that Numbers is brand new and it still has them.
--
I'm umming and ahhing about Leopard, I'm finding it REALLY hard not to buy it watched the guide last night, and there are a few things I could do with right now. but its only a few more days, read the personal experiance of others, find out what the bugs are, see if I can hold off another while. I'm not sure why I'm so keen to upgrade. I think though, as remarked in the "Road to Leopard" threads, its the subtle changes that are making me smile, while things like "Spaces" are big selling points.
Aqua was designed to go with those translucent Macs, needless to say Apple doesn't sell them anymore. Aqua has had its day. The blue Aqua scroll bars and buttons are outdated looking. It's time for a change.
Has Aqua had its day? mm Probably, but In the back of my head I seem to remember watching Steve unveil OSX and say "It runs on Aqua" or "runs what we call Aqua" which to my mind ment "the underlying code is referred to as Aqua" but thats a while back so I could be missremebering, I'm sure its on youtube somewhere though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland
That said, the whole ''boycott'' thing was more to get Apple's attention, than anything else, and rest assured they read these forums. It's the kind of "issue" I thought they would have solved before they shipped Leopard. I do expect them to address it in a point release, it's not unified enough. I also think they are very aware of it.
If they are aware of it, then why release iWork using the "jellybeans" ?
Write a letter to Steve if you want to get his attention
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland
Still, Leopard is clearly better then Tiger, and Tiger was the best OS in the world. Ordered my 24" 2.8Ghz iMac Friday, should be here with Leopard installed by the 30th.
Tiger still is for a few more days at least!
So you WILL be getting Leopard then, just not buying an upgrade hardly Boycotting then, is it?
You see here is where I find you really annoying - you are getting your hands on a lovely new iMac before me, thats just so irritating as to not be funny Seriously though, I'm jealous, hope its perfect for you. The design has been growing on me recently and for some reason THIS pic speaks to me. Hope to get a look at them in person next month to see if I can overcome my current "phobia" about the glossy screen
Theres a post I'd like to see your thoughts on the 2.8 and Leopard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland
Walter, yes this is my first major update, but I've used Macs on and off over the years. This piece of information seems to be very important to you for some reason. No hard feelings Walter, I'm warming to your presence.
It's not important to me, it just proves what I thought, Tiger is the best version of OSX (so far) but earlier versions, as I'm sure you've read, sucked major balls in oh so many more ways than "just" the scroll bars being blue, major major BUGS in Panther/Jaguar. So it's easy to see that you have grown used to the comparative perfection/stability of Tiger. It will be interesting to see how stable Leopard is though, but I have a strong feeling it will be
No hard feelings at all and once again, I wish you great success with the new iMac.
Somehow I don't really get the point of this discussion. I assume that it is rather easy for the MacOS programmers to redefine the looks of the buttons and scroll bars, probably just a matter of replacing some bitmaps. It seems natural for me that the design team evaluated different looks of these items, and then deliberately decided to keep the old aqua style.
Why they did it, I have no idea. Maybe they decided to keep a bit of aqua since it is so highly recognizable, or maybe they wanted to keep a few colour highlights in the otherwise dull grey UI elements. Whatever the reason, a bit of aqua will remain in Leopard, whether you like it or not.
All in all, the use of the aqua elements is not a good example of pushing a "good enough" solution on the market. If you don't like Apple's decision about this UI detail, that is just bad luck. But please, before you continue arguing, can you at least try to accept that it is simply impossible for a company to design a product that will fully accepted by 100% of the customers?
Somehow I don't really get the point of this discussion. I assume that it is rather easy for the MacOS programmers to redefine the looks of the buttons and scroll bars, probably just a matter of replacing some bitmaps. It seems natural for me that the design team evaluated different looks of these items, and then deliberately decided to keep the old aqua style.
Why they did it, I have no idea. Maybe they decided to keep a bit of aqua since it is so highly recognizable, or maybe they wanted to keep a few colour highlights in the otherwise dull grey UI elements. Whatever the reason, a bit of aqua will remain in Leopard, whether you like it or not.
All in all, the use of the aqua elements is not a good example of pushing a "good enough" solution on the market. If you don't like Apple's decision about this UI detail, that is just bad luck. But please, before you continue arguing, can you at least try to accept that it is simply impossible for a company to design a product that will fully accepted by 100% of the customers?
Maybe you didn't read the thread. We all like Leopard, and we all know it will never be perfect for anybody, never mind everybody. Absolute perfection is not really possibly with an OS, as they are constantly evolving.
The real point is that Steve said we'd be getting a consistent look across the board, and they didn't deliver on that promise. That point says it all. And it's not just opinion, they simply didn't do it.
There's two possible ways this paves out as far as I'm concerned. One, they didn't have enough time to finish it, so they decided on focusing on getting most of the bugs out and shipping on time, and they will slowly get rid of all Aqua in the first two or three point releases. Two, they are going to spring a surprise keynote before Leopard ships talking about the new features and the fully unified UI, they would then update all the images on the Leopard site to remove any Aqua, it was planned that way purposely.
End of the day, they very likely ran out of time, so they had to settle with all the great features Leopard has to offer, they knew they couldn't do it all, so they didn't even try to go there.
I am afraid he will not need luck. Tiger will by no means have the fate of 10.0-10.1 that were quickly forgotten, because so many features were missing. Tiger will be supported for a long time with regular security updates and everything working today with it, will still work for at least three years from now.
In the beginning of this decade we had no other option but to update. With Mac OS X slowly maturing, this has changed, for the better or the worst.
No shit they will still update tiger. What I meant was if he's boycotting Leopard until Apple does what he want's, it will be a freaking millennium before he will be updating to Leopard.
Maybe you didn't read the thread. We all like Leopard, and we all know it will never be perfect for anybody, never mind everybody. Absolute perfection is not really possibly with an OS, as they are constantly evolving.
Maybe I didn't understand everything, but I had the impression from 9secs that he is very upset about this issue.
I can't believe the design team overlooked this detail when they settled for the Leopard look. I'd rather guess there had be some amount of discussion what to do with those aqua elements, and finally Apple decided to keep them.
And maybe my main point didn't come out as strongly as I wanted. I believe that changing the aqua look to something ordinary grey wouldn't involve much work at all. Of course, if you change it significantly, like changing the shape or size of the elements, it would be more difficult. But in that case you need to include it in the beta releases early so that outside developers can adjust their applications to the new look.
I can't believe the design team overlooked this detail when they settled for the Leopard look. I'd rather guess there had be some amount of discussion what to do with those aqua elements, and finally Apple decided to keep them.
Aqua is still the underlying theme for OS 10. I think we'll still have Aqua Until Apple releases OS 11. Maybe another 5 years out. Although I think Apple will probably include a multi-theme user application (with a specific interface SDK) before that. There are always custom theme apps, but I got kernel panics from two of them and swore those things off. But, that was my personal experience. Many people use them and like it.
"Consistent" (non-distinct) window dressing is actually a bad thing unless users are already having trouble identifying and using widgets. In this case, absolutely no users are confused or hampered by different looking buttons.
Consistency is left-over dogma from an era when widgets were actually hard to identify, understand, and use. Now that 2D interface elements have been worked out, there is little if any value in 100% identical widgets. The balance has shifted. Having distinct interfaces, while still remaining obvious, is quite beneficial. If all windows looked exactly the same, finding them while in expose becomes more difficult.
I'm not advocating aqua. Just pointing out that griping about inconsistency, in regards to anything other than aesthetics, is completely baseless and dogmatic.
I'm not advocating aqua. Just pointing out that griping about inconsistency, in regards to anything other than aesthetics, is completely baseless and dogmatic.
I think most people here are griping about the aesthetic inconsistencies and not usability. Because some people actually like when things look good. Admittedly, I haven't read the whole thread so perhaps I'm wrong and people actually are griping about usability...but I know most conversations I've been in have been gripes about aesthetics. It's not a big issue but it's an issue nonetheless that was mentioned at least somewhere in this thread that Apple makes super sexy (aesthetic) hardware but doesn't put nearly the same amount of time on the GUI aesthetics. The question is why?
The answer is not obvious. I can think of a few answers but Apple and some people here would take personal offense...I mean, people always feel offended when I talk bad about Apple developers. Of course, when I congratulate the Apple devs, I'm an Apple apologist and should be dragged out onto the street and shot.
I think most people here are griping about the aesthetic inconsistencies and not usability. Because some people actually like when things look good. Admittedly, I haven't read the whole thread so perhaps I'm wrong and people actually are griping about usability...but I know most conversations I've been in have been gripes about aesthetics. It's not a big issue but it's an issue nonetheless that was mentioned at least somewhere in this thread that Apple makes super sexy (aesthetic) hardware but doesn't put nearly the same amount of time on the GUI aesthetics. The question is why?
The answer is not obvious. I can think of a few answers but Apple and some people here would take personal offense...I mean, people always feel offended when I talk bad about Apple developers. Of course, when I congratulate the Apple devs, I'm an Apple apologist and should be dragged out onto the street and shot.
Excellent post and one of the few that actually have anything to do with what this thread is about. you have summed up the point of this thread nicely.
Apple promised a consistent GUI. They did not deliver.
Time and again, Ireland, myself, and others have posted how the functionality of leopard is not in question, but the simple look of the GUI is.
Apple started the GUI changeover in iLife and made iMovie and iPhoto look exactly like iTunes, but forgot / neglected to put the same finishing touch to the rest of the iLife suite.
There is no good reason for this whatsoever. Then Leopard comes along and looks like the iLife apps that did not complete the new look. That is what anyone would call unfinished. Sure it has the aqua in it, so it works, but with some apps having a total new look and others having half a new look, it is half done.
Apple has done an amazing job with Leopard. Amazing. Yet, for some reason that people cannot put a finger on, it is not getting the free hype it deserves. There are people who claim that there is just something not quite right (there was a forum thread a week or two ago about the fact that Apple was about to release Leopard and yet there was no activity going on about it), but they can't put there finger on it. The devil is in the details they say and the point of this thread is to point out this particular detail. Apple creates the most amazing OS in the world that is years ahead of the competition and then gives it a facelift with an OLD theme that is halfway done. Not the Apple I am used to and not representative of what they are capable of.
I have had a thought with this though. Perhaps Apple has made it easier to update the look of the whole OS at once in point releases. For example, when Apple comes out with a new iTunes theme, they can then apply the theme to the OS in one simple step. Maybe that is crazy, but I think it is pretty smart, if they put such abilities in. Probably just a pipe dream though.
In any case, all of us who purchase Leopard are going to enjoy it. however, those of us with an eye for detail will just enjoy it perhaps 5% less. perhaps that sounds high, but I think it is accurate.
Leopard is still great, but we hope Apple finishes what they started, or does something even better. It is Apple after all.
Apple, Make it like Aperture! Put that level of polish and class into it and it will be golden.
I do expect them to address it in a point release, it's not unified enough. I also think they are very aware of it.
From what I remember, Apple never introduced system-wide interface changes in the past OS X releases. I would be surprised to see the trend break.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker
No shit they will still update tiger. What I meant was if he's boycotting Leopard until Apple does what he want's, it will be a freaking millennium before he will be updating to Leopard.
Comments
I don't really think he wants to boycott Leopard even though it is the title of this thread. He is simply pointing out an obvious lack of consistency in the UI. I like the look of Aqua too, but as it is currently. In Leopard, it looks like a mishmash of 2 ideas and not quite finished. Maybe some of this is on purpose. But what will never make sense is that some apps now have the iTunes bars and some don't. And there is no rhyme or reason. This is just simply and obvious error or they just need to "ship the thing."
Unfinnished is I suppose a matter of opinion
If he doesn't want to boycott Leopard, why put it in the title?
I never noticed that there were grey scroll bars in iTunes, it would seem that I don't use them and I have been in and out of iTunes a lot just recently. Bewildering that! maybe now that I have noticed them I will use them, where as with the "jellybean" effect I would have noticed them and might have used them. I find "|search" is where its at though
I think he may have been praising Leopard like I was as well because there was time to overhaul the Ui and we were all waiting for the "top secret features" and just about everyone thought it would be a new UI. Instead, we have an old, used, iTunes UI with Aqua mixed in and iTunes elements in some, but not all apps.
You know what thought did, wet the bed and thought it was sweating!
Hype is a wonderful thing, but people need to keep it in check. I never really thought there was going to be a new UI in Leopard so I didn't get hyped up about it to the point of EXPECTING it.
Just because someone can point this out doesn't mean they think they are better than Apple or that they need to work there. It is simply pointing out a mistake and this is a forum where that is allowed and happens often.
and just because there is one small thing that isn't up to a few nitpicking users over hyped expectations, among 300 plus new ones theres no need to blow it out of proportion. Do we know WHY its "still" there? Do Apple have a reason to keep it? Do we know if there IS a reason to keep it?
NO
Until we DO know for sure, how can we say its "broken" ?
Apple will be fine. Leopard will sell. But until they fix this issue, it will still be slightly unfinished.
It will sell, I hope it sells by the container load because from everything I've seen it looks like a great improvement over Tiger and I'm REALLY happy with Tiger at the moment
You never had a point. Leopard isn't out yet. You're basing your entire thesis on a singular concept: that relatively benign UI inconsistencies make Leopard unworthy. For one, you haven't seen the rest. For two, nobody has ever released a version of software that needed no improvement. Apple is no exception. I assume you don't remember 10.0.
There's a group of you on AI who seem to think Apple is the God who led the hebrews out of Egypt, parting the Red Sea for them, dropping manna from heaven, etc. No: Apple is just a bunch of guys in Silicon Valley trying to turn a profit by being usability leaders. They can't make every pixel perfect or deliver a line of machines custom-tailored to your individual desires. They live in the same world as the rest of us. Have they lost the edge? By my judgement, not even close. If inconsistent UI is such a dreadful problem, I suggest you take it up with them, while the rest of us enjoy the overall niceness of Leopard.
If Apple is indeed on a train ride straight to hell -- as you are so concerned about based on a single observation of a tiny fraction of the product -- then get off your ass and do something about it. If it's such a pandemic, then there's room for someone to profit from a solution. Be that guy instead of the disenfranchised idol worshipper.
Great post!
1) The 3d dock. This is worse than the regular dock (with I also don't care for and would rather replace it with taskmenubar if it was available for OS X)
2) Translucent menubar. It worked fine as is. If anything, Apple should have increased it's thickness a few pixels.
3) Inability to just shade the folders like you could do with labels in classic (and also the inability to choose what the shading (label) color should be. I can't stand it when I've labeled folders and then when you are in column view, it looks tacky and messy.
That said, the whole ''boycott'' thing was more to get Apple's attention, than anything else, and rest assured they read these forums. It's the kind of "issue" I thought they would have solved before they shipped Leopard. I do expect them to address it in a point release, it's not unified enough. I also think they are very aware of it.
Still, Leopard is clearly better then Tiger, and Tiger was the best OS in the world. Ordered my 24" 2.8Ghz iMac Friday, should be here with Leopard installed by the 30th.
Walter, yes this is my first major update, but I've used Macs on and off over the years. This piece of information seems to be very important to you for some reason. No hard feelings Walter, I'm warming to your presence.
You never had a point. Leopard isn't out yet. You're basing your entire thesis on a singular concept: that relatively benign UI inconsistencies make Leopard unworthy. For one, you haven't seen the rest. For two, nobody has ever released a version of software that needed no improvement. Apple is no exception. I assume you don't remember 10.0.
There's a group of you on AI who seem to think Apple is the God who led the hebrews out of Egypt, parting the Red Sea for them, dropping manna from heaven, etc. No: Apple is just a bunch of guys in Silicon Valley trying to turn a profit by being usability leaders. They can't make every pixel perfect or deliver a line of machines custom-tailored to your individual desires. They live in the same world as the rest of us. Have they lost the edge? By my judgement, not even close. If inconsistent UI is such a dreadful problem, I suggest you take it up with them, while the rest of us enjoy the overall niceness of Leopard.
If Apple is indeed on a train ride straight to hell -- as you are so concerned about based on a single observation of a tiny fraction of the product -- then get off your ass and do something about it. If it's such a pandemic, then there's room for someone to profit from a solution. Be that guy instead of the disenfranchised idol worshipper.
Attention deficit disorder.
Simple as that. You pull out arguments out of thin air and then apply them to whomever. That is a clever way of masking the issue and of not having to actually think and reply to the stated issues and rebuttals.
I don't know anyone who doesn't think of Apple strictly as a for profit corporation. However, corporations, even in horizontal market segments, differ in their method of operations by quite a bit. Apple is a computer maker / software developer that prides itself in making products that excel and have an extremely high level of polish. Leopard lacks that. Compare to Aperture, which is simply an app.
I never said Leopard was unworthy. I even went on to praise the under the hood improvements and even that I was planning on being an early adopter. But when you can't keep up I guess you cannot be faulted for your shortcomings.
The whole point is to spotlight the fact that leopard looks unfinished and certainly is inconsistent in its looks. And I have seen all there is to see of Leopard apart from Apple internal.
Apple promised it would be different. It is not. Like I mentioned earlier, I am holding out hope that in the coming week, Apple will hold a press conference demonstrating the true new UI or address it in a point release. If not, no big deal, but it will certainly be annoying seeing these inconsistencies, knowing that it would not take that much effort to complete the look.
As far as Leopard not being out yet, I am aware of that. However, Apple just replaced their placeholder leopard stuff with what looks like the final deal leading up to launch. I don't see the desclaimer of "features subject to change" anymore either. Therefore, I think it is right to judge the product up to this point as it is what Apple is using to market it.
As far as the idol worshipping thing... dude, come back to earth.
Unfinnished is I suppose a matter of opinion
If he doesn't want to boycott Leopard, why put it in the title?
To get the attention of Apple who does indeed read popular forums.
I never noticed that there were grey scroll bars in iTunes, it would seem that I don't use them and I have been in and out of iTunes a lot just recently. Bewildering that! maybe now that I have noticed them I will use them, where as with the "jellybean" effect I would have noticed them and might have used them. I find "|search" is where its at though
Just about everyone else noticed them. Especially those who do design work. They also have been added to portions of iLife 08. It is strange that some apps that look the same have them and some don't. and using old hat is not a good way of differentiating apps, of which that is not what they are trying to do anyway.
You know what thought did, wet the bed and thought it was sweating!
ooooooooK...
Hype is a wonderful thing, but people need to keep it in check. I never really thought there was going to be a new UI in Leopard so I didn't get hyped up about it to the point of EXPECTING it.
Apple showed it and promised it at WWDC. End of story.
and just because there is one small thing that isn't up to a few nitpicking users over hyped expectations, among 300 plus new ones theres no need to blow it out of proportion. Do we know WHY its "still" there? Do Apple have a reason to keep it? Do we know if there IS a reason to keep it?
NO
Until we DO know for sure, how can we say its "broken" ?
The problem with the "one small thing" is that it is one of the first things you see.
Based on the fact that the look has made it slowly into more apps, I would think it is safe to say that Apple means to go that way and the only reason for keeping it is running out of time. There is no way around that one.
It will sell, I hope it sells by the container load because from everything I've seen it looks like a great improvement over Tiger and I'm REALLY happy with Tiger at the moment
Agreed.
To get the attention of Apple who does indeed read popular forums.
"One Physical letter is worth a thousand emails or forum posts"
Just about everyone else noticed them. Especially those who do design work. They also have been added to portions of iLife 08. It is strange that some apps that look the same have them and some don't. and using old hat is not a good way of differentiating apps, of which that is not what they are trying to do anyway.
I was about to make comment on the fact that you are wrong, but then realised I had made the mistake of thinking you ment iWork 08 because the blue scroll bars a deffinately in Pages, Numbers and Keynote.
I suppose this does allow your point to remain, its not across the board which is fair enough.
But then I don't understand why people complain about the brushed alu effect, I don't "see" it, possibly because I'm getting on with using the app?
ooooooooK...
Apple showed it and promised it at WWDC. End of story.
REALLY? got a link for that keynote, you'd care to share and a pointer in the direction of the time it happened at, cos I must have missed that when I was watching it.
The problem with the "one small thing" is that it is one of the first things you see.
A matter of opinion really.
Based on the fact that the look has made it slowly into more apps, I would think it is safe to say that Apple means to go that way and the only reason for keeping it is running out of time. There is no way around that one.
So no change there then, its still happening SLOWLY, oh except that Numbers is brand new and it still has them.
--
I'm umming and ahhing about Leopard, I'm finding it REALLY hard not to buy it
Aqua was designed to go with those translucent Macs, needless to say Apple doesn't sell them anymore. Aqua has had its day. The blue Aqua scroll bars and buttons are outdated looking. It's time for a change.
Has Aqua had its day? mm Probably, but In the back of my head I seem to remember watching Steve unveil OSX and say "It runs on Aqua" or "runs what we call Aqua" which to my mind ment "the underlying code is referred to as Aqua" but thats a while back so I could be missremebering, I'm sure its on youtube somewhere though.
That said, the whole ''boycott'' thing was more to get Apple's attention, than anything else, and rest assured they read these forums. It's the kind of "issue" I thought they would have solved before they shipped Leopard. I do expect them to address it in a point release, it's not unified enough. I also think they are very aware of it.
If they are aware of it, then why release iWork using the "jellybeans" ?
Write a letter to Steve if you want to get his attention
Still, Leopard is clearly better then Tiger, and Tiger was the best OS in the world. Ordered my 24" 2.8Ghz iMac Friday, should be here with Leopard installed by the 30th.
Tiger still is
So you WILL be getting Leopard then, just not buying an upgrade
You see here is where I find you really annoying - you are getting your hands on a lovely new iMac before me, thats just so irritating as to not be funny
Theres a post I'd like to see your thoughts on the 2.8 and Leopard
Walter, yes this is my first major update, but I've used Macs on and off over the years. This piece of information seems to be very important to you for some reason. No hard feelings Walter, I'm warming to your presence.
It's not important to me, it just proves what I thought, Tiger is the best version of OSX (so far) but earlier versions, as I'm sure you've read, sucked major balls in oh so many more ways than "just" the scroll bars being blue, major major BUGS in Panther/Jaguar. So it's easy to see that you have grown used to the comparative perfection/stability of Tiger. It will be interesting to see how stable Leopard is though, but I have a strong feeling it will be
No hard feelings at all and once again, I wish you great success with the new iMac.
Why they did it, I have no idea. Maybe they decided to keep a bit of aqua since it is so highly recognizable, or maybe they wanted to keep a few colour highlights in the otherwise dull grey UI elements. Whatever the reason, a bit of aqua will remain in Leopard, whether you like it or not.
All in all, the use of the aqua elements is not a good example of pushing a "good enough" solution on the market. If you don't like Apple's decision about this UI detail, that is just bad luck. But please, before you continue arguing, can you at least try to accept that it is simply impossible for a company to design a product that will fully accepted by 100% of the customers?
If they are aware of it, then why release iWork using the "jellybeans" ?
Welcome to my side of the argument.
Theres a post I'd like to see your thoughts on the 2.8 and Leopard
I may do that, but I'd like to use it for about 3 weeks first.
Somehow I don't really get the point of this discussion. I assume that it is rather easy for the MacOS programmers to redefine the looks of the buttons and scroll bars, probably just a matter of replacing some bitmaps. It seems natural for me that the design team evaluated different looks of these items, and then deliberately decided to keep the old aqua style.
Why they did it, I have no idea. Maybe they decided to keep a bit of aqua since it is so highly recognizable, or maybe they wanted to keep a few colour highlights in the otherwise dull grey UI elements. Whatever the reason, a bit of aqua will remain in Leopard, whether you like it or not.
All in all, the use of the aqua elements is not a good example of pushing a "good enough" solution on the market. If you don't like Apple's decision about this UI detail, that is just bad luck. But please, before you continue arguing, can you at least try to accept that it is simply impossible for a company to design a product that will fully accepted by 100% of the customers?
Maybe you didn't read the thread. We all like Leopard, and we all know it will never be perfect for anybody, never mind everybody. Absolute perfection is not really possibly with an OS, as they are constantly evolving.
The real point is that Steve said we'd be getting a consistent look across the board, and they didn't deliver on that promise. That point says it all. And it's not just opinion, they simply didn't do it.
There's two possible ways this paves out as far as I'm concerned. One, they didn't have enough time to finish it, so they decided on focusing on getting most of the bugs out and shipping on time, and they will slowly get rid of all Aqua in the first two or three point releases. Two, they are going to spring a surprise keynote before Leopard ships talking about the new features and the fully unified UI, they would then update all the images on the Leopard site to remove any Aqua, it was planned that way purposely.
End of the day, they very likely ran out of time, so they had to settle with all the great features Leopard has to offer, they knew they couldn't do it all, so they didn't even try to go there.
I am afraid he will not need luck. Tiger will by no means have the fate of 10.0-10.1 that were quickly forgotten, because so many features were missing. Tiger will be supported for a long time with regular security updates and everything working today with it, will still work for at least three years from now.
In the beginning of this decade we had no other option but to update. With Mac OS X slowly maturing, this has changed, for the better or the worst.
No shit they will still update tiger. What I meant was if he's boycotting Leopard until Apple does what he want's, it will be a freaking millennium before he will be updating to Leopard.
Maybe you didn't read the thread. We all like Leopard, and we all know it will never be perfect for anybody, never mind everybody. Absolute perfection is not really possibly with an OS, as they are constantly evolving.
Maybe I didn't understand everything, but I had the impression from 9secs that he is very upset about this issue.
I can't believe the design team overlooked this detail when they settled for the Leopard look. I'd rather guess there had be some amount of discussion what to do with those aqua elements, and finally Apple decided to keep them.
And maybe my main point didn't come out as strongly as I wanted. I believe that changing the aqua look to something ordinary grey wouldn't involve much work at all. Of course, if you change it significantly, like changing the shape or size of the elements, it would be more difficult. But in that case you need to include it in the beta releases early so that outside developers can adjust their applications to the new look.
I can't believe the design team overlooked this detail when they settled for the Leopard look. I'd rather guess there had be some amount of discussion what to do with those aqua elements, and finally Apple decided to keep them.
Consistency is left-over dogma from an era when widgets were actually hard to identify, understand, and use. Now that 2D interface elements have been worked out, there is little if any value in 100% identical widgets. The balance has shifted. Having distinct interfaces, while still remaining obvious, is quite beneficial. If all windows looked exactly the same, finding them while in expose becomes more difficult.
I'm not advocating aqua. Just pointing out that griping about inconsistency, in regards to anything other than aesthetics, is completely baseless and dogmatic.
I'm not advocating aqua. Just pointing out that griping about inconsistency, in regards to anything other than aesthetics, is completely baseless and dogmatic.
I think most people here are griping about the aesthetic inconsistencies and not usability. Because some people actually like when things look good. Admittedly, I haven't read the whole thread so perhaps I'm wrong and people actually are griping about usability...but I know most conversations I've been in have been gripes about aesthetics. It's not a big issue but it's an issue nonetheless that was mentioned at least somewhere in this thread that Apple makes super sexy (aesthetic) hardware but doesn't put nearly the same amount of time on the GUI aesthetics. The question is why?
The answer is not obvious. I can think of a few answers but Apple and some people here would take personal offense...I mean, people always feel offended when I talk bad about Apple developers. Of course, when I congratulate the Apple devs, I'm an Apple apologist and should be dragged out onto the street and shot.
I think most people here are griping about the aesthetic inconsistencies and not usability. Because some people actually like when things look good. Admittedly, I haven't read the whole thread so perhaps I'm wrong and people actually are griping about usability...but I know most conversations I've been in have been gripes about aesthetics. It's not a big issue but it's an issue nonetheless that was mentioned at least somewhere in this thread that Apple makes super sexy (aesthetic) hardware but doesn't put nearly the same amount of time on the GUI aesthetics. The question is why?
The answer is not obvious. I can think of a few answers but Apple and some people here would take personal offense...I mean, people always feel offended when I talk bad about Apple developers. Of course, when I congratulate the Apple devs, I'm an Apple apologist and should be dragged out onto the street and shot.
Excellent post and one of the few that actually have anything to do with what this thread is about. you have summed up the point of this thread nicely.
Apple promised a consistent GUI. They did not deliver.
Time and again, Ireland, myself, and others have posted how the functionality of leopard is not in question, but the simple look of the GUI is.
Apple started the GUI changeover in iLife and made iMovie and iPhoto look exactly like iTunes, but forgot / neglected to put the same finishing touch to the rest of the iLife suite.
There is no good reason for this whatsoever. Then Leopard comes along and looks like the iLife apps that did not complete the new look. That is what anyone would call unfinished. Sure it has the aqua in it, so it works, but with some apps having a total new look and others having half a new look, it is half done.
Apple has done an amazing job with Leopard. Amazing. Yet, for some reason that people cannot put a finger on, it is not getting the free hype it deserves. There are people who claim that there is just something not quite right (there was a forum thread a week or two ago about the fact that Apple was about to release Leopard and yet there was no activity going on about it), but they can't put there finger on it. The devil is in the details they say and the point of this thread is to point out this particular detail. Apple creates the most amazing OS in the world that is years ahead of the competition and then gives it a facelift with an OLD theme that is halfway done. Not the Apple I am used to and not representative of what they are capable of.
I have had a thought with this though. Perhaps Apple has made it easier to update the look of the whole OS at once in point releases. For example, when Apple comes out with a new iTunes theme, they can then apply the theme to the OS in one simple step. Maybe that is crazy, but I think it is pretty smart, if they put such abilities in. Probably just a pipe dream though.
In any case, all of us who purchase Leopard are going to enjoy it. however, those of us with an eye for detail will just enjoy it perhaps 5% less. perhaps that sounds high, but I think it is accurate.
Leopard is still great, but we hope Apple finishes what they started, or does something even better. It is Apple after all.
Apple, Make it like Aperture! Put that level of polish and class into it and it will be golden.
I do expect them to address it in a point release, it's not unified enough. I also think they are very aware of it.
From what I remember, Apple never introduced system-wide interface changes in the past OS X releases. I would be surprised to see the trend break.
No shit they will still update tiger. What I meant was if he's boycotting Leopard until Apple does what he want's, it will be a freaking millennium before he will be updating to Leopard.
LOL, OK.