I think you are right that there is a bigger picture out there somewhere but how it comes together is anyones's speculation right now...
In the list of pieces above in my first post on this topic (#7), I also forgot to mention the Apple patent dredged up on another blog a while ago that hinted at a modular approach to an entertainment center, where extra functionality could be added/subtracted and that the menu/UI would intelligently recognize a new component in the system and add the appropriate menu items to control the added component.
I imagine that Apple, or third parties, could sell external storage or DVD drives of any flavor that could plug into that mysterious "diagnostic" USB port on the back of the AppleTV and be controlled with the remote via the Front Row UI. That would give Apple an interim solution for providing for HiDef DVDs while the war continues raging.
I don't agree that it's "make or break" time for AppleTV... Apple can afford to have it languish for years as a video distribution platform. I don't think it provides any drag on Apple overall.
In revenue maybe not but I think the products are more inter-dependant than that. Not covering off the media extender line will allow other products to step and ultimately justify the use of alternative download services. Why would you bother with iTS for movies & TV shows just for iPod when another service can cover off your portable and home media in one go?
Microsoft and Amazon have better TV offerings at the moment (I can't belive I just said that!). Don't get me wrong I think my AppleTV's the best HiFi and photo slideshow system around but TV? Not really! Apple need to move their products along in unison, if their frontline is broken it could provide the opening the competition need and with MS covering almost all TV websites internationally their content delivery position is dangerously strong.
Wow. I just couldn't disagree more with most people here about the Apple TV. I love my Apple TV. It's a daily part of my entertainment regiment. And the last thing I want Apple to do to it is add a bunch of complicated features that ruin its simplicity.
PVR? I already have that in my cable box. And TiVo has a much smaller marketshare of overall TV viewers than people think. I don't think this would help sell that many more Apple TVs.
Safari? Really? Surfing the web on my TV? Have you actually tried doing that? Why not just get a Mac Mini?
I'm using Firefox on my HTPC right now, It's an HD set though. The Apple Remote would be incredibly awkward though.
Quote:
And, of course, there's always the consideration of quality. But honestly, if DVDs are good enough for most people (as is evident from the poor sales of HD DVD, Blu-Ray, and even HD TVs)
30% of US households now have an HDTV. If Apple didn't think HD was important, why did their stated specs practically require one? It didn't have to be that way for the first model. Costs are going down and there may be significant growth in that installed base this holiday season.
The HD media thing is a different story we've only just passed the first year of HD discs. It took three years for DVD to get momentum, in part due to player costs going down, and about five or six to meet and beat VHS. I think the competing formats are another concern that's limiting sales.
I imagine that Apple, or third parties, could sell external storage or DVD drives of any flavor that could plug into that mysterious "diagnostic" USB port on the back of the AppleTV and be controlled with the remote via the Front Row UI. That would give Apple an interim solution for providing for HiDef DVDs while the war continues raging.
There have been some arguments against adding DVD, HD-DVD or BD raised before but after using my ATV for a while I reckon it would be a great idea until Apple makes it easy to acquire full DVDs and deliver HD films via iTS. I can see both delayed for some time by legislation changes and alternative HD interests (Sat, Cable & Disc sales) but - fingers crossed!
It took three years for DVD to get momentum, in part due to player costs going down, and about five or six to meet and beat VHS. I think the competing formats are another concern that's limiting sales.
The price reductions with DVD (& even CD before it) were enabled by the Data market as opposed to their own markets. I can't see either format getting traction until this happens again and that's been a bit slow. The best enabler so far has been PS3 for Blu-ray.
Using the HD satellite rips as a guide I'd be quite happy for downloadable 2.5-3Mbps 720p movies as long as the encoding is good. I'd trust x264 over Quicktime products at this stage (even DivX on ASP is better than iTS on AVC!!)
It often takes me more than two or three days to finish a movie, as I tend to watch a lot of movies late night and fall asleep in the process. It needs to work exactly like Netflix. Pay a set amount every month; keep any video file as long as you want, but require a video to be "checked back in" before downloading another. Have a sliding scale of one, three, five videos allowed to be checked out at a time, and price accordingly.
Amazing! You watch a movie over three days? Don't you kinda miss out on the immersion factor? Each to his own, I guess. (I once went to a movie, fell asleep during the first 10minutes and woke up as the end credits rolled. It was a damned fine snooze, if a little pricey)
As for the monthly fee? NO NO NO NO NO! A deal breaker right off the bat. I like the checking video's in and out, though. That could work. Max three movies after which you need to check one out in order to get another.
The price reductions with DVD (& even CD before it) were enabled by the Data market as opposed to their own markets. I can't see either format getting traction until this happens again and that's been a bit slow. The best enabler so far has been PS3 for Blu-ray.
That doesn't seem to be an issue this time. Already, there's talk of a $200 model this winter, Some specials from Amazon and the like have sold the dedicated decks at about $200, and there's five movies included with a mail-in offer. Players of both formats have gone down by about 60% in one year.
Does iTunes even use or offer AVC? AppleTV seems to suggest that Main Profile is its upper profile limit.
Amazing! You watch a movie over three days? Don't you kinda miss out on the immersion factor? Each to his own, I guess. (I once went to a movie, fell asleep during the first 10minutes and woke up as the end credits rolled. It was a damned fine snooze, if a little pricey)
As for the monthly fee? NO NO NO NO NO! A deal breaker right off the bat. I like the checking video's in and out, though. That could work. Max three movies after which you need to check one out in order to get another.
Previous rumors did suggest that it might be as much as a 30 day rental period for a pretty reasonable fee. I don't know what your objection is over a monthly fee. Netflix and BB do that and they have pretty sizeable customer bases.
Yeah, I still use it often for listening to music over my home theatre.
I didn't go for an Apple TV as working as a designer, I have a kick-ass Mac Pro (in a study) with my music collection and I share this library wirelessly to a Mac Mini connected to my home system (in my lounge).
As I live in Asia, iTunes is still NOT available :-(
That doesn't seem to be an issue this time. Already, there's talk of a $200 model this winter, Some specials from Amazon and the like have sold the dedicated decks at about $200, and there's five movies included with a mail-in offer. Players of both formats have gone down by about 60% in one year.
Thank god for the PS3! Though I think we were ahead of the game in H.264 decoding this time around which would have helped.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
Does iTunes even use or offer AVC? AppleTV seems to suggest that Main Profile is its upper profile limit.
Just to confuse everyone AVC(H.264) includes several profiles (profiles within a profile!) though Apple seem only to have a partial implementation. x264 fare's better though I was basing it on the fact that my Handbrake DVD rips seem better quality than the stuff I buy off iTS and the transcodes from DV are awful. AVC is cappable of much better so I think the studios are short-changing Apple with the quality of their content which makes me wonder what the 720p stuff will look like when it's released.
Sound like what most people here are saying is that the AppleTV needs content - which is what the article is saying also. Netflix, Blockbuster, DVR, Amazon - they are all just sources of content that Apple is lacking.
I suspect that the lack of content is part of a concious effort by the studios and networks to to prevent Apple from gaining too much power in the market place - as they did with the iTune/iPod. NBC/universal is an example.
Apple doesn't have a category dominating hardware product in home video and no studio is going to help them make AppleTV into one. As long as the market stays fragmented with many devices, formats and stores, the studios have time to figure out how to make maximize their profit while retaining control.
This fragmentation is confusing and frustrating for the consumer who most wade through a bewildering number of store and options, but the studios don't care. They just don't want to end up like the record label with no choice but to sell Apple's way at Apple's prices.
All that to say, don't I necessarily blame Apple for the lack of content. It may not be available to them at any (sensible) price.
In this environment Apple's best and only play may be with TV shows and indie films.
For the record, I do own an AppleTV and I am very pleased with it. It does exactly what I want with music and video, and with a 250 GB upgrade, it has all the space I need... for now.
I don't know what your objection is over a monthly fee. Netflix and BB do that and they have pretty sizeable customer bases.
I don't have any objections per se. Subscription is good for a lot of people. I have a couple of young kids and only occasionally get to watch a movie. When I do it is a spur of the moment kind of deal and I want to pay there and then. I want to browse, pick, pay and watch. I object to a subscription model if there is no alternative. I just wouldn't sign up.
How does one watch more than one music video at a time? Wouldn't that be rather cacophonous? I think I'm misunderstanding what you mean.
Of course you are correct. Only one music video can be displayed at a time. I'm not sure if you're genuinely confused, or nitpicking my choice of words, but if it is the former I graciously apologize, appreciate the interest in the post and humbly offer an alternate way of describing the feature-set lacking on an Apple TV. When selecting music videos to play on the device, you can only play one of them, since Apple TV will stop after one and revert to menu. There is no option to play 2, 3 or 56 in a row. This prevents the Apple TV from being used for music videos without constant management. Imagine if you had to press play for each individual song you want to hear on an iPod or in iTunes? Both of those options, incidentally, can be set-up to play multiple videos in one session. Why can't the Apple TV?
I wanted to buy a AppleTv since it was released, but there are two unresolved questions.
1. I want more viedeo formats
2. What's the power usage of the AppleTV, when its playing a video and when its in Standby? On the spec-sheet Apple just states it uses a 48Watt power-supply. Does anyone really know how much power it uses. (someone stated that it uses 32Watts in Standby(??))
I hope this doesn't cause you hit your head for not thinking of it, but doesn't the iPod AV dock have a remote control? I thought that's why there was an IR window on the front of that thing, and that the Apple remote works with that.
Sure it does. But limited in controls and completely lackiong the interface on my tv. From across the room it doesn't do much. With a Harmony universal and APL TV, the whole set-up is seemless and beautiful. And in all honesty, being aware of that aspect was huge purchase driver for me.
So I can't complain-I have exactly what I spent my money on and it does everything they said it would. But the reality after a good number of months is that I overspent. And I would change from really thinking twice before purchasing the next thing from Apple (I've held out so far on iPhone and all new iPods, undecided on Leopard) back into my mode of wanting everything, instantly.
You mean there's no video playlist function on the Apple TV? That's odd, since it's there on the new iPods...
I agree it's odd. Unless present in a software update I haven't paid attention to in past 60 days (realized in thinking about all this it has been about 2 months since fired-up the 'ol Apple TV), it has been an ommission.
I keep asking Apple Store employees if they know how, since they all seem a little confused by the question, play with demo to realize what I'm saying and then ask everyone else in the store. I keep my hopes high that one of them will stumble onto something I haven't tried. But no luck thus far...
Amazing! You watch a movie over three days? Don't you kinda miss out on the immersion factor? Each to his own, I guess. (I once went to a movie, fell asleep during the first 10minutes and woke up as the end credits rolled. It was a damned fine snooze, if a little pricey)
As for the monthly fee? NO NO NO NO NO! A deal breaker right off the bat. I like the checking video's in and out, though. That could work. Max three movies after which you need to check one out in order to get another.
I hate to admit it, but most movies these days put me to sleep also. I'm better able to watch a 1/2 hr. or 1 hr. TV series show than an entire movie.
I guess the discussion about Led Zeppelin has come to an end.
Bit of a shame if you ask me. A better discussion might center around why we can't get classics like this in Apples highest quality mode?
What is there to discuss about that? Apple probably doesn't have permission to do that. If they had the rights, why would they hold out on us? The only thing I see from that is more complaining about the labels.
Comments
I think you are right that there is a bigger picture out there somewhere but how it comes together is anyones's speculation right now...
In the list of pieces above in my first post on this topic (#7), I also forgot to mention the Apple patent dredged up on another blog a while ago that hinted at a modular approach to an entertainment center, where extra functionality could be added/subtracted and that the menu/UI would intelligently recognize a new component in the system and add the appropriate menu items to control the added component.
I imagine that Apple, or third parties, could sell external storage or DVD drives of any flavor that could plug into that mysterious "diagnostic" USB port on the back of the AppleTV and be controlled with the remote via the Front Row UI.
I don't agree that it's "make or break" time for AppleTV... Apple can afford to have it languish for years as a video distribution platform. I don't think it provides any drag on Apple overall.
In revenue maybe not but I think the products are more inter-dependant than that. Not covering off the media extender line will allow other products to step and ultimately justify the use of alternative download services. Why would you bother with iTS for movies & TV shows just for iPod when another service can cover off your portable and home media in one go?
Microsoft and Amazon have better TV offerings at the moment (I can't belive I just said that!). Don't get me wrong I think my AppleTV's the best HiFi and photo slideshow system around but TV? Not really! Apple need to move their products along in unison, if their frontline is broken it could provide the opening the competition need and with MS covering almost all TV websites internationally their content delivery position is dangerously strong.
Lets hope the rumours are true.
McD
Wow. I just couldn't disagree more with most people here about the Apple TV. I love my Apple TV. It's a daily part of my entertainment regiment. And the last thing I want Apple to do to it is add a bunch of complicated features that ruin its simplicity.
PVR? I already have that in my cable box. And TiVo has a much smaller marketshare of overall TV viewers than people think. I don't think this would help sell that many more Apple TVs.
Safari? Really? Surfing the web on my TV? Have you actually tried doing that? Why not just get a Mac Mini?
I'm using Firefox on my HTPC right now, It's an HD set though. The Apple Remote would be incredibly awkward though.
And, of course, there's always the consideration of quality. But honestly, if DVDs are good enough for most people (as is evident from the poor sales of HD DVD, Blu-Ray, and even HD TVs)
30% of US households now have an HDTV. If Apple didn't think HD was important, why did their stated specs practically require one? It didn't have to be that way for the first model. Costs are going down and there may be significant growth in that installed base this holiday season.
The HD media thing is a different story we've only just passed the first year of HD discs. It took three years for DVD to get momentum, in part due to player costs going down, and about five or six to meet and beat VHS. I think the competing formats are another concern that's limiting sales.
I imagine that Apple, or third parties, could sell external storage or DVD drives of any flavor that could plug into that mysterious "diagnostic" USB port on the back of the AppleTV and be controlled with the remote via the Front Row UI.
There have been some arguments against adding DVD, HD-DVD or BD raised before but after using my ATV for a while I reckon it would be a great idea until Apple makes it easy to acquire full DVDs and deliver HD films via iTS. I can see both delayed for some time by legislation changes and alternative HD interests (Sat, Cable & Disc sales) but - fingers crossed!
McD
It took three years for DVD to get momentum, in part due to player costs going down, and about five or six to meet and beat VHS. I think the competing formats are another concern that's limiting sales.
The price reductions with DVD (& even CD before it) were enabled by the Data market as opposed to their own markets. I can't see either format getting traction until this happens again and that's been a bit slow. The best enabler so far has been PS3 for Blu-ray.
Using the HD satellite rips as a guide I'd be quite happy for downloadable 2.5-3Mbps 720p movies as long as the encoding is good. I'd trust x264 over Quicktime products at this stage (even DivX on ASP is better than iTS on AVC!!)
McD
It often takes me more than two or three days to finish a movie, as I tend to watch a lot of movies late night and fall asleep in the process. It needs to work exactly like Netflix. Pay a set amount every month; keep any video file as long as you want, but require a video to be "checked back in" before downloading another. Have a sliding scale of one, three, five videos allowed to be checked out at a time, and price accordingly.
Amazing! You watch a movie over three days? Don't you kinda miss out on the immersion factor? Each to his own, I guess. (I once went to a movie, fell asleep during the first 10minutes and woke up as the end credits rolled. It was a damned fine snooze, if a little pricey)
As for the monthly fee? NO NO NO NO NO! A deal breaker right off the bat. I like the checking video's in and out, though. That could work. Max three movies after which you need to check one out in order to get another.
The price reductions with DVD (& even CD before it) were enabled by the Data market as opposed to their own markets. I can't see either format getting traction until this happens again and that's been a bit slow. The best enabler so far has been PS3 for Blu-ray.
That doesn't seem to be an issue this time. Already, there's talk of a $200 model this winter, Some specials from Amazon and the like have sold the dedicated decks at about $200, and there's five movies included with a mail-in offer. Players of both formats have gone down by about 60% in one year.
Does iTunes even use or offer AVC? AppleTV seems to suggest that Main Profile is its upper profile limit.
Amazing! You watch a movie over three days? Don't you kinda miss out on the immersion factor? Each to his own, I guess. (I once went to a movie, fell asleep during the first 10minutes and woke up as the end credits rolled. It was a damned fine snooze, if a little pricey)
As for the monthly fee? NO NO NO NO NO! A deal breaker right off the bat. I like the checking video's in and out, though. That could work. Max three movies after which you need to check one out in order to get another.
Previous rumors did suggest that it might be as much as a 30 day rental period for a pretty reasonable fee. I don't know what your objection is over a monthly fee. Netflix and BB do that and they have pretty sizeable customer bases.
Yeah, I still use it often for listening to music over my home theatre.
I didn't go for an Apple TV as working as a designer, I have a kick-ass Mac Pro (in a study) with my music collection and I share this library wirelessly to a Mac Mini connected to my home system (in my lounge).
As I live in Asia, iTunes is still NOT available :-(
That doesn't seem to be an issue this time. Already, there's talk of a $200 model this winter, Some specials from Amazon and the like have sold the dedicated decks at about $200, and there's five movies included with a mail-in offer. Players of both formats have gone down by about 60% in one year.
Thank god for the PS3! Though I think we were ahead of the game in H.264 decoding this time around which would have helped.
Does iTunes even use or offer AVC? AppleTV seems to suggest that Main Profile is its upper profile limit.
Just to confuse everyone AVC(H.264) includes several profiles (profiles within a profile!) though Apple seem only to have a partial implementation. x264 fare's better though I was basing it on the fact that my Handbrake DVD rips seem better quality than the stuff I buy off iTS and the transcodes from DV are awful. AVC is cappable of much better so I think the studios are short-changing Apple with the quality of their content which makes me wonder what the 720p stuff will look like when it's released.
This Doom9 link is about the best I've come across by way of an explanation for AVC etc. http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=96059.
McD
I suspect that the lack of content is part of a concious effort by the studios and networks to to prevent Apple from gaining too much power in the market place - as they did with the iTune/iPod. NBC/universal is an example.
Apple doesn't have a category dominating hardware product in home video and no studio is going to help them make AppleTV into one. As long as the market stays fragmented with many devices, formats and stores, the studios have time to figure out how to make maximize their profit while retaining control.
This fragmentation is confusing and frustrating for the consumer who most wade through a bewildering number of store and options, but the studios don't care. They just don't want to end up like the record label with no choice but to sell Apple's way at Apple's prices.
All that to say, don't I necessarily blame Apple for the lack of content. It may not be available to them at any (sensible) price.
In this environment Apple's best and only play may be with TV shows and indie films.
For the record, I do own an AppleTV and I am very pleased with it. It does exactly what I want with music and video, and with a 250 GB upgrade, it has all the space I need... for now.
I don't know what your objection is over a monthly fee. Netflix and BB do that and they have pretty sizeable customer bases.
I don't have any objections per se. Subscription is good for a lot of people. I have a couple of young kids and only occasionally get to watch a movie. When I do it is a spur of the moment kind of deal and I want to pay there and then. I want to browse, pick, pay and watch. I object to a subscription model if there is no alternative. I just wouldn't sign up.
How does one watch more than one music video at a time? Wouldn't that be rather cacophonous? I think I'm misunderstanding what you mean.
Of course you are correct. Only one music video can be displayed at a time. I'm not sure if you're genuinely confused, or nitpicking my choice of words, but if it is the former I graciously apologize, appreciate the interest in the post and humbly offer an alternate way of describing the feature-set lacking on an Apple TV. When selecting music videos to play on the device, you can only play one of them, since Apple TV will stop after one and revert to menu. There is no option to play 2, 3 or 56 in a row. This prevents the Apple TV from being used for music videos without constant management. Imagine if you had to press play for each individual song you want to hear on an iPod or in iTunes? Both of those options, incidentally, can be set-up to play multiple videos in one session. Why can't the Apple TV?
1. I want more viedeo formats
2. What's the power usage of the AppleTV, when its playing a video and when its in Standby? On the spec-sheet Apple just states it uses a 48Watt power-supply. Does anyone really know how much power it uses. (someone stated that it uses 32Watts in Standby(??))
I hope this doesn't cause you hit your head for not thinking of it, but doesn't the iPod AV dock have a remote control? I thought that's why there was an IR window on the front of that thing, and that the Apple remote works with that.
Sure it does. But limited in controls and completely lackiong the interface on my tv. From across the room it doesn't do much. With a Harmony universal and APL TV, the whole set-up is seemless and beautiful. And in all honesty, being aware of that aspect was huge purchase driver for me.
So I can't complain-I have exactly what I spent my money on and it does everything they said it would. But the reality after a good number of months is that I overspent. And I would change from really thinking twice before purchasing the next thing from Apple (I've held out so far on iPhone and all new iPods, undecided on Leopard) back into my mode of wanting everything, instantly.
You mean there's no video playlist function on the Apple TV? That's odd, since it's there on the new iPods...
I agree it's odd. Unless present in a software update I haven't paid attention to in past 60 days (realized in thinking about all this it has been about 2 months since fired-up the 'ol Apple TV), it has been an ommission.
I keep asking Apple Store employees if they know how, since they all seem a little confused by the question, play with demo to realize what I'm saying and then ask everyone else in the store. I keep my hopes high that one of them will stumble onto something I haven't tried. But no luck thus far...
Amazing! You watch a movie over three days? Don't you kinda miss out on the immersion factor? Each to his own, I guess. (I once went to a movie, fell asleep during the first 10minutes and woke up as the end credits rolled. It was a damned fine snooze, if a little pricey)
As for the monthly fee? NO NO NO NO NO! A deal breaker right off the bat. I like the checking video's in and out, though. That could work. Max three movies after which you need to check one out in order to get another.
I hate to admit it, but most movies these days put me to sleep also. I'm better able to watch a 1/2 hr. or 1 hr. TV series show than an entire movie.
Bit of a shame if you ask me. A better discussion might center around why we can't get classics like this in Apples highest quality mode?
Dave
I guess the discussion about Led Zeppelin has come to an end.
Bit of a shame if you ask me. A better discussion might center around why we can't get classics like this in Apples highest quality mode?
What is there to discuss about that? Apple probably doesn't have permission to do that. If they had the rights, why would they hold out on us? The only thing I see from that is more complaining about the labels.