Please Don't Bite My Head Off......But

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Comments

  • Reply 61 of 93
    Not to be an asshole but, why does whether or not you enjoy the comparison have any relevance to the argument. I enjoy jokes but I wouldn't use one as the premise for an ideology if it was nonsensical!
  • Reply 62 of 93
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dfiler View Post


    My take:



    I disagree with the whole concept of "intellectual property" and don't feel that the words "theft" or "stealing" apply. If anything, the phrase "copyright infringement" should be used. There is a clear difference between using an idea without permission vs using a physical object without permission.



    I feel that the term "intellectual property" has been foisted upon us my multi-national corporations. They're trying to blur the lines between "copyright infringement" and "theft" such that they can profit even more from exclusive control of ideas. In my opinion, the western system for copyrights is morally unjustifiable.



    Why is it when I read this I immediately thought of this:



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-L-0s-7-Z0
  • Reply 63 of 93
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dfiler View Post


    You used to be able to make a living as a professional musician.

    Bands and orchestras would compete with each other to get the best musicians. Even small cities had a healthy market for talented musicians. Times have changed though.



    You mean like...before radio and the phonograph?
  • Reply 64 of 93
    When I said I enjoyed that, I meant I found it humorous, and I thought it was a decent comparison.
  • Reply 65 of 93
    And what I mean by decent, is when people think of mozart and beethoven, they think of them sort of hand in hand, in that they go together. And it's the same (for me and others I've talked to) with 50 Cent and Kanye.
  • Reply 66 of 93
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fishyesque View Post


    When I said I enjoyed that, I meant I found it humorous, and I thought it was a decent comparison.



    OK, I'll demonstrate why it is a bad comparison!

    Because there is no evidence or explanation for the notion that classical composers are the equivalent of contemporary rap stars. On the contrary I'd say they have completely different audiences. Also, they are very different industries. The rap industry is primarily about recorded music, whereas classical composers were auteurs who created manuscripts for performance by orchestra.



    On top of that there is the problem of context. He assumes that economic conditions and social hierarchies in the 18th century are analogous to those of today!



    Just as an example I'll compare beethoven and mozart to struggling musicians X and Y - who are geniuses but make very little money from their trade today. I'm certain that many such musicians exist in contemporary society, and I have no less reason to draw a comparison between them and beethoven than to draw a comparison between 50 cent and beethoven.



    In other words, one comparison leads to one conclusion and another comparison can lead to a totally different conclusion. Given that his comparison has no rational basis, I'm therefore forced to disregard his conclusion!
  • Reply 67 of 93
    backtomacbacktomac Posts: 4,579member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Archstudent View Post


    OK, I'll demonstrate why it is a bad comparison!

    Because there is no evidence or explanation for the notion that classical composers are the equivalent of contemporary rap stars. On the contrary I'd say they have completely different audiences. Also, they are very different industries. The rap industry is primarily about recorded music, whereas classical composers were auteurs who created manuscripts for performance by orchestra.



    On top of that there is the problem of context. He assumes that economic conditions and social hierarchies in the 18th century are analogous to those of today!



    Just as an example I'll compare beethoven and mozart to struggling musicians X and Y - who are geniuses but make very little money from their trade today. I'm certain that many such musicians exist in contemporary society, and I have no less reason to draw a comparison between them and beethoven than to draw a comparison between 50 cent and beethoven.



    In other words, one comparison leads to one conclusion and another comparison can lead to a totally different conclusion. Given that his comparison has no rational basis, I'm therefore forced to disregard his conclusion!



    Ok Arch I'll grant that the analogy may not be the best. If I had the time and inclination to look up the popularity and income of Motzart and Beethovenand compare it to 50 cent and Kanye West I might be able to support my position better. Do you feel better now?



    But let's not forget who had the stupid ass position that's indefensible. Yeah, that would be you.



    See this happens a lot on the forums. Someone picks a ill thought out position and decides to stick with it well past the point that any reasonable person would. Then they get defensive and start throwing out phrases like "patronizing" and jumping all over a silly analogy that has little to do with the original topic of debate.



    Bottom line: Your original position that 'it's not stealing to download Leopard and not pay for it' is stupid. Mr. H called you on it and so have I. And whether you agree or like it, you'll depend upon IP laws to protect your rights one day if you really are going to be an architect.



    I think dfiler may have an interesting position that would make for good debate. You don't.
  • Reply 68 of 93
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Archstudent View Post


    OK, I'll demonstrate why it is a bad comparison!

    Because there is no evidence or explanation for the notion that classical composers are the equivalent of contemporary rap stars.



    Because the diffferences between a wealthy sponsor like Prince Karl Lichnowsky or Archduke Rudolph and a wealthy sponsor like Interscope/UMG are exactly what?



    In that respect I think backtomac is incorrect. As wealthy as super stars are, they are less wealthy than their patrons (the music studios) and the heads of the studios. Now the most popular composers are kinda bad examples (like Mozart and Beethoven) as they ended up broke at the end of the day. But then so do a good number of superstars...



    The similarities is that "popular" music is brokered by the elite. It used to be royal patrons. Now its "royal" music studios. In any case, in any age, you typically can find musical super stars enjoying a much higher than average lifestyle. These are not always the most talented of the generation or the best remembered. But being a court musician for an emperor is a pretty good deal if you can get the work much less royal composer or some other plum slot.



    Whether 50 cent is the Mozart of our age can only be determined by history in the future. I'm going to guess...Not.
  • Reply 69 of 93
    backtomacbacktomac Posts: 4,579member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    Because the diffferences between a wealthy sponsor like Prince Karl Lichnowsky or Archduke Rudolph and a wealthy sponsor like Interscope/UMG are exactly what?



    In that respect I think backtomac is incorrect. As wealthy as super stars are, they are less wealthy than their patrons (the music studios) and the heads of the studios. Now the most popular composers are kinda bad examples (like Mozart and Beethoven) as they ended up broke at the end of the day. But then so do a good number of superstars...



    The similarities is that "popular" music is brokered by the elite. It used to be royal patrons. Now its "royal" music studios. In any case, in any age, you typically can find musical super stars enjoying a much higher than average lifestyle. These are not always the most talented of the generation or the best remembered. But being a court musician for an emperor is a pretty good deal if you can get the work much less royal composer or some other plum slot.



    Whether 50 cent is the Mozart of our age can only be determined by history in the future. I'm going to guess...Not.



    I think people are misinterpreting a simple analogy.



    dfiler asserted that musicians today are no better paid than musicians of the past. I chose the comparison of motzart and beethoven(quite popular in their day) to 50 cent and Kanye West(quite popular today) to back up my claim that popular and successful musicians of today are better compensated today than in the past. That's all. The average musician may not be any better off.
  • Reply 70 of 93
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by backtomac View Post


    I think people are misinterpreting a simple analogy.



    dfiler asserted that musicians today are no better paid than musicians of the past. I chose the comparison of motzart and beethoven(quite popular in their day) to 50 cent and Kanye West(quite popular today) to back up my claim that popular and successful musicians of today are better compensated today than in the past. That's all. The average musician may not be any better off.



    And I disagree. At the height of their money Mozart and Beethoven were doing probably about as well as 50 cent and Kanye West are today relative to the general populace and the elite. That's just an off the cuff impression but its equally backed up by proof as your assertion to the contrary.



    Mozart was drawing 800 florins a year essentially just to hang around Vienna and compose dances once a year. Of course his lifestyle cost a heck of a lot more than that which is how he ended up in debt in the first place. Kinda like how Britney Spears makes $750K/month and blows it all without saving any.
  • Reply 71 of 93
    I just thought the comparison was good because, when I think of Kanye, I think of 50 Cent. Same goes for Mozart and Beethoven.
  • Reply 72 of 93
    backtomacbacktomac Posts: 4,579member
    Vinea,



    Did some research. 50 cent made 32 million last year. That's a lot of coin. Still not sure how much 800 florians would compute in income today though.



    Interesting I came across this article at Ars, that discusses how Mark Twain thought about copy right issues and how he tryed to protect his IP.
  • Reply 73 of 93
    backtomacbacktomac Posts: 4,579member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    And I disagree.



    Fair enough. I really don't have anything to dispute your assertion. I don't know how much 800 florins would compute to income today. I'll google and see what I can come up with.
  • Reply 74 of 93
    zanshinzanshin Posts: 350member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Archstudent View Post


    never heard of playing the devil's advocate?



    You're either a thief, or a liar, or perhaps a lying thief. And you're quite delusional if you think downloading isn't theft, and Apple employs a host of lawyers who can prove it (and I'd love to see that story in AI).



    While I wish you no personal harm for your irresponsible attitudes, I do hope that someday someone -- perhaps a similarly minded co-worker -- pirates your work, benefits from the act, and then calmly states that they don't believe you had any legal or moral right to protest it because of the backdoor method they used acquire it.
  • Reply 75 of 93
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Archstudent View Post


    not really. downloading is transferring information or data. Stealing a boxed dvd from a shop is a criminal offence. Certainly different, both legally and ethically. Also its not really the same as someone stealing from you because your version of stealing implies stealing a personal effect, which can hardly be compared to stealing an operating system from a corporation.



    Also its really not that difficult to do, and you don't have to burn a DL dvd.



    Having said that, I can say that I got my copy off the internet and it works perfectly. It didn't take 3 days to download either (more like an hour and a half), and I didn't have to burn a DL dvd (nor edit down the data to fit it on a SL dvd). However if you want advice on doing I won't be the person to give it. If you want to pirate software thats your lookout, and you can easily obtain information for how to go about it with a google search or two.



    Dude, don't even go there, it's WRONG and you know it, there is no way to justify STEALING, YOU are what's wrong with the world today, you are a thief plain and simple
  • Reply 76 of 93
    atlasatlas Posts: 90member
    The thing is, you know it's stealing, you only try to justify it using facts. It's like me saying "Well officer, this is how I WASN'T breaking the law", trying to advert the situation from the main problem.



    And if you want a free OS, go with Linux. As long as you have the time, it's way better. GIMP is free (there's your black and white stuff) along with all the other open-source free software.



    Don't justify your intent. If you want something for free, then take something that is for free.
  • Reply 77 of 93
    smeesmee Posts: 195member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Atlas View Post


    The thing is, you know it's stealing, you only try to justify it using facts. It's like me saying "Well officer, this is how I WASN'T breaking the law", trying to advert the situation from the main problem.



    Lol,

    "Honest Officer, I had to swerve to hit him."
  • Reply 78 of 93
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SSS View Post


    I've been told by a couple of people to just download Leopard off torrents instead of splashing £60-90 for it.......



    Your thoughts on this? Disadvantages etc, bar being a cheap skate.



    Always willing to pay for Apple stuff myself, but when you have a few mates doin it you look the mug when you all end up with the same thing and your £80 out of pocket.....



    I'm biting your head off.



    Buy it and be like the cool kids.
  • Reply 79 of 93
    irnchrizirnchriz Posts: 1,606member
    I got mine off the internet, it took weeks to come........





    From apple after I pre-ordered it
  • Reply 80 of 93
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Archstudent View Post


    so what? Architects get paid for a service. Once you've been paid for that service you've been paid. On the other hand, if he went around taking money from people using my blueprint, I can take him to court.



    But if he scanned them in, and the made them available to people on bit torrent, that would be fine though right, as it's not criminal to download something that others own is it?



    Either download it and accept you're doing wrong, or don't download it, you can't have it both ways.
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