I did, I'm not going to compare all the different Dell's available but I took one of the cheapest available Dell, the Inspiron 1510;
US price (including US tax average at 8%) 366 euro
France price 528 euro (incl french tax)
Difference: 44% more expensive in France
Apple MacBook:
US price 808 euro (incl 8% tax)
France price 1049 euro (incl french tax)
Difference: 29% more expensive in France
Or...
Dell XPS 720
US= 1103 euro (incl 8% US tax)
France= 1499
difference= 396 euro or 35% more expensive in France (or rest of Europe)
IMac base model:
US= 882 euro (incl 8% US tax)
France= 1199 euro
difference= 317 euro or 35% more expensive in France (or rest of Europe)
Pretty sure some Apple models will be more expensive in France then Dell compared to the US, but from these 2 sample I see that Apple 's economics are not different from Dell.
Just wait until the Chinese want all prices in Euros because the US dollar is a junk currency
If you're going to buy a phone for unlocking, it's cheaper to buy a US phone than one from the UK, but good luck with that theory.
I've seen a good number of unlocked phones in the US, T-Mobile is the only other carrier option. In Europe where the iPhone can be used with virtually any carrier its logical to assume this will be an even bigger trend.
A big part of the price differences ex VAT between Europe and the US is currency hedging, and the difference between purchasing power with the dollar's fall. European price parity is roughly at 0.85-1.0 Euro/Dollar. Input tariffs also play a roll, but that shouldn't be too big in the scheme of things.
I did, I'm not going to compare all the different Dell's available but I took one of the cheapest available Dell, the Inspiron 1510;
US price (including US tax average at 8%) 366 euro
France price 528 euro (incl french tax)
Difference: 44% more expensive in France
Apple MacBook:
US price 808 euro (incl 8% tax)
France price 1049 euro (incl french tax)
Difference: 29% more expensive in France
Or...
Dell XPS 720
US= 1103 euro (incl 8% US tax)
France= 1499
difference= 396 euro or 35% more expensive in France (or rest of Europe)
IMac base model:
US= 882 euro (incl 8% US tax)
France= 1199 euro
difference= 317 euro or 35% more expensive in France (or rest of Europe)
Pretty sure some Apple models will be more expensive in France then Dell compared to the US, but from these 2 sample I see that Apple 's economics are not different from Dell.
Did you really look for the same configuration for the Dells? The specs can be quite different for US and Euro models. I made a comparison for two models, selecting the same CPU/RAM/HDD/DVD/GPU/OS/WiFi/etc.
For a Latitude D630 notebook, I get the following prices. US: $1096 (= 747 ?), or 777 ? (Germany, all w/o VAT). The same for Precision 690 (Intel Xeon desktop) US: $3513 (= 2395 ?), or 2505 ? from Dell Germany.
Taking into account that there are some "copyright fees" for computers in Germany, the difference is really small. In other words, Dell takes as much money from ther US customers as from their EU counterparts, whereas Apple is getting an extra 15 - 20 % from EU buyers.
Is it so hard for some die hard boys from over the pond to understand that even if we factor in VAT and yadda yoda Europeans still get ripped off (and dont come with the parity as I am pretty sure that if the $/Euro rate was 1:1 prices WOULD go up at our end).
Lets face it Apple's and others products are designed in the US but manufactured in China. China Yuen is tied to the $ in order for them to flood Wal-Mard and co. with cheap products (and kill US manufacturing in the process). Components are mostly sourced in $ again, so is the energy.
So the value chain of manufacturing is based in $
Yes there are duties and excises to be paid in SOME cases and YES in some countries like France and Germany there is a special levy on Disc burners and iPods and so on. And yes we charge VAT.
But in the US you get charged sales tax ! And this sales tax can sometime encompass state, regional and council taxes and amount to more then 10%
If Apple were to cruise at a margin of (say)5% NO ONE would care. When the net profit is -however- >25% one does have the right to start asking questions about rip-off.
Plus : when was the last time Apple paid a DIVIDEND to its shareholders. Usually companies should not be allowed to just sit on the wads of money they made but give (some) back to its rightful owners the shareholders. How come some very profitable tech companies have billions of $ in CASH on their accounts and get away with it ?
Does anyone here reckon that the greater freedom France's iPhone purchasers have in deciding which contract to take/service provider to use plays any part in the brisk sales over there?
The article even says 20% have just bought the phone outright without a contract - that's the reason lots of people are holding out here in the UK.
I just bought into a new £35/mo contract for 18 months. Nice new Nokia 6300 for 'free', 400 minutes talk, 600 texts. That Nokia would be an iPhone right now if I could just go out and buy one unlocked.
Did you really look for the same configuration for the Dells? The specs can be quite different for US and Euro models. I made a comparison for two models, selecting the same CPU/RAM/HDD/DVD/GPU/OS/WiFi/etc.
For a Latitude D630 notebook, I get the following prices. US: $1096 (= 747 ?), or 777 ? (Germany, all w/o VAT). The same for Precision 690 (Intel Xeon desktop) US: $3513 (= 2395 ?), or 2505 ? from Dell Germany.
Taking into account that there are some "copyright fees" for computers in Germany, the difference is really small. In other words, Dell takes as much money from ther US customers as from their EU counterparts, whereas Apple is getting an extra 15 - 20 % from EU buyers.
I'm completely mystified as to how what you've written here supports the notion that Apple is unduly ripping off its European customers.
Is it some kind of "Dell sells similar configurations cheaper, therefore Apple is ripping everybody off?" Because that's a completely different, and tedious, contention.
Is it so hard for some die hard boys from over the pond to understand that even if we factor in VAT and yadda yoda Europeans still get ripped off (and dont come with the parity as I am pretty sure that if the $/Euro rate was 1:1 prices WOULD go up at our end).
Lets face it Apple's and others products are designed in the US but manufactured in China. China Yuen is tied to the $ in order for them to flood Wal-Mard and co. with cheap products (and kill US manufacturing in the process). Components are mostly sourced in $ again, so is the energy.
So the value chain of manufacturing is based in $
Yes there are duties and excises to be paid in SOME cases and YES in some countries like France and Germany there is a special levy on Disc burners and iPods and so on. And yes we charge VAT.
But in the US you get charged sales tax ! And this sales tax can sometime encompass state, regional and council taxes and amount to more then 10%
If Apple were to cruise at a margin of (say)5% NO ONE would care. When the net profit is -however- >25% one does have the right to start asking questions about rip-off.
Plus : when was the last time Apple paid a DIVIDEND to its shareholders. Usually companies should not be allowed to just sit on the wads of money they made but give (some) back to its rightful owners the shareholders. How come some very profitable tech companies have billions of $ in CASH on their accounts and get away with it ?
Again: "Apple charges too much for their stuff, in general, and I regard their margins as excessive" is a very different topic than "Apple sticks on outrageous surcharges for European customers, far in excess of what other non-EU vendors do".
It might be a good idea to keep those two ideas separate.
Components are mostly sourced in $ again, so is the energy.
Seems like some of that will start changing in the next few years. Dollars are getting cheaper and cheaper, and oil-selling countries aren't happy about it. Some of them are thinking about changing to yens or euros :-/
Does anyone here reckon that the greater freedom France's iPhone purchasers have in deciding which contract to take/service provider to use plays any part in the brisk sales over there?
The article even says 20% have just bought the phone outright without a contract - that's the reason lots of people are holding out here in the UK.
I just bought into a new £35/mo contract for 18 months. Nice new Nokia 6300 for 'free', 400 minutes talk, 600 texts. That Nokia would be an iPhone right now if I could just go out and buy one unlocked.
A little bit of choice goes a long, long way. While I'm a believer in the end-to-end solution (though let's hope iTunes rentals won't be ISP-specific) a lot of Apple's barrier to market revolves around taking decisions away from consumers as part of intelligent design. If they were to offer an unlocked version and a network contract package with extra features they'd make a mint anywhere.
I'm completely mystified as to how what you've written here supports the notion that Apple is unduly ripping off its European customers.
Is it some kind of "Dell sells similar configurations cheaper, therefore Apple is ripping everybody off?" Because that's a completely different, and tedious, contention.
adda, I mostly wanted to correct S10's comparison between Dell's US and EU prices, because it is unfair to compare prices for differently spec'ed models across the pond.
My additional point is that Dell manages to sell computers in the EU for more or less the same net price as in the US. When you look at Apple on the other hand, there is always an extra 15 - 20 % that European customers have to pay for an Apple product on top of the US price and VAT.
Of course, Apple is free to charge as much as they want for their products, but with their current policy in the EU, they are simply overpriced for a large number of possible switchers.
I've seen a good number of unlocked phones in the US, T-Mobile is the only other carrier option. In Europe where the iPhone can be used with virtually any carrier its logical to assume this will be an even bigger trend.
I imagine so but as I said, it's still cheaper to buy a US iPhone, import it into Europe and unlock it so if the rest of my European compatriots want an unlocked phone, it'd be sensible to buy it from the USA, not Europe.
I imagine so but as I said, it's still cheaper to buy a US iPhone, import it into Europe and unlock it so if the rest of my European compatriots want an unlocked phone, it'd be sensible to buy it from the USA, not Europe.
Can you do that without a hack or does Apple know the IMEI of US and European iPhones in order to prevent this undercutting?
adda, I mostly wanted to correct S10's comparison between Dell's US and EU prices, because it is unfair to compare prices for differently spec'ed models across the pond.
My additional point is that Dell manages to sell computers in the EU for more or less the same net price as in the US. When you look at Apple on the other hand, there is always an extra 15 - 20 % that European customers have to pay for an Apple product on top of the US price and VAT.
Of course, Apple is free to charge as much as they want for their products, but with their current policy in the EU, they are simply overpriced for a large number of possible switchers.
OK, but it looks like the prices you quoted show that you can get a "similarly specced" Dell for less than Apple charges.
Is it true that Dell sells the same computer in Europe for the equivalent they charge in the states? I just mean the final asking price.
OK, but it looks like the prices you quoted show that you can get a "similarly specced" Dell for less than Apple charges.
I selected the two models more or less randomly by picking a "middle of the road" laptop and a high end PC. This does not contradict your reasoning, there is no doubt that Apple computers cost more than comparable (not identical!) PC hardware.
Quote:
Is it true that Dell sells the same computer in Europe for the equivalent they charge in the states? I just mean the final asking price.
The numbers I quoted are the final asking prices, of course without taxes and shipping. You can test it yourself, just use http://euro.dell.com and select a country.
Comments
Apple Sotre
That must be Apple Store in French. I really like the sound of that... Apple Sotree!
Is Apple's European HQ not in Ireland? Or is that just manufacturing/printing?
I think they are actually in the land of Nod most of the time.
I did, I'm not going to compare all the different Dell's available but I took one of the cheapest available Dell, the Inspiron 1510;
US price (including US tax average at 8%) 366 euro
France price 528 euro (incl french tax)
Difference: 44% more expensive in France
Apple MacBook:
US price 808 euro (incl 8% tax)
France price 1049 euro (incl french tax)
Difference: 29% more expensive in France
Or...
Dell XPS 720
US= 1103 euro (incl 8% US tax)
France= 1499
difference= 396 euro or 35% more expensive in France (or rest of Europe)
IMac base model:
US= 882 euro (incl 8% US tax)
France= 1199 euro
difference= 317 euro or 35% more expensive in France (or rest of Europe)
Pretty sure some Apple models will be more expensive in France then Dell compared to the US, but from these 2 sample I see that Apple 's economics are not different from Dell.
Just wait until the Chinese want all prices in Euros because the US dollar is a junk currency
If you're going to buy a phone for unlocking, it's cheaper to buy a US phone than one from the UK, but good luck with that theory.
I've seen a good number of unlocked phones in the US, T-Mobile is the only other carrier option. In Europe where the iPhone can be used with virtually any carrier its logical to assume this will be an even bigger trend.
I did, I'm not going to compare all the different Dell's available but I took one of the cheapest available Dell, the Inspiron 1510;
US price (including US tax average at 8%) 366 euro
France price 528 euro (incl french tax)
Difference: 44% more expensive in France
Apple MacBook:
US price 808 euro (incl 8% tax)
France price 1049 euro (incl french tax)
Difference: 29% more expensive in France
Or...
Dell XPS 720
US= 1103 euro (incl 8% US tax)
France= 1499
difference= 396 euro or 35% more expensive in France (or rest of Europe)
IMac base model:
US= 882 euro (incl 8% US tax)
France= 1199 euro
difference= 317 euro or 35% more expensive in France (or rest of Europe)
Pretty sure some Apple models will be more expensive in France then Dell compared to the US, but from these 2 sample I see that Apple 's economics are not different from Dell.
Did you really look for the same configuration for the Dells? The specs can be quite different for US and Euro models. I made a comparison for two models, selecting the same CPU/RAM/HDD/DVD/GPU/OS/WiFi/etc.
For a Latitude D630 notebook, I get the following prices. US: $1096 (= 747 ?), or 777 ? (Germany, all w/o VAT). The same for Precision 690 (Intel Xeon desktop) US: $3513 (= 2395 ?), or 2505 ? from Dell Germany.
Taking into account that there are some "copyright fees" for computers in Germany, the difference is really small. In other words, Dell takes as much money from ther US customers as from their EU counterparts, whereas Apple is getting an extra 15 - 20 % from EU buyers.
Lets face it Apple's and others products are designed in the US but manufactured in China. China Yuen is tied to the $ in order for them to flood Wal-Mard and co. with cheap products (and kill US manufacturing in the process). Components are mostly sourced in $ again, so is the energy.
So the value chain of manufacturing is based in $
Yes there are duties and excises to be paid in SOME cases and YES in some countries like France and Germany there is a special levy on Disc burners and iPods and so on. And yes we charge VAT.
But in the US you get charged sales tax ! And this sales tax can sometime encompass state, regional and council taxes and amount to more then 10%
If Apple were to cruise at a margin of (say)5% NO ONE would care. When the net profit is -however- >25% one does have the right to start asking questions about rip-off.
Plus : when was the last time Apple paid a DIVIDEND to its shareholders. Usually companies should not be allowed to just sit on the wads of money they made but give (some) back to its rightful owners the shareholders. How come some very profitable tech companies have billions of $ in CASH on their accounts and get away with it ?
The article even says 20% have just bought the phone outright without a contract - that's the reason lots of people are holding out here in the UK.
I just bought into a new £35/mo contract for 18 months. Nice new Nokia 6300 for 'free', 400 minutes talk, 600 texts. That Nokia would be an iPhone right now if I could just go out and buy one unlocked.
Nice new Nokia 6300 for 'free', 400 minutes talk, 600 texts.
Wouldn't there be an additional 7 pounds for unlimited internet and 7 pounds for unlimited cloud access to equal the iPhone plan.
Did you really look for the same configuration for the Dells? The specs can be quite different for US and Euro models. I made a comparison for two models, selecting the same CPU/RAM/HDD/DVD/GPU/OS/WiFi/etc.
For a Latitude D630 notebook, I get the following prices. US: $1096 (= 747 ?), or 777 ? (Germany, all w/o VAT). The same for Precision 690 (Intel Xeon desktop) US: $3513 (= 2395 ?), or 2505 ? from Dell Germany.
Taking into account that there are some "copyright fees" for computers in Germany, the difference is really small. In other words, Dell takes as much money from ther US customers as from their EU counterparts, whereas Apple is getting an extra 15 - 20 % from EU buyers.
I'm completely mystified as to how what you've written here supports the notion that Apple is unduly ripping off its European customers.
Is it some kind of "Dell sells similar configurations cheaper, therefore Apple is ripping everybody off?" Because that's a completely different, and tedious, contention.
Is it so hard for some die hard boys from over the pond to understand that even if we factor in VAT and yadda yoda Europeans still get ripped off (and dont come with the parity as I am pretty sure that if the $/Euro rate was 1:1 prices WOULD go up at our end).
Lets face it Apple's and others products are designed in the US but manufactured in China. China Yuen is tied to the $ in order for them to flood Wal-Mard and co. with cheap products (and kill US manufacturing in the process). Components are mostly sourced in $ again, so is the energy.
So the value chain of manufacturing is based in $
Yes there are duties and excises to be paid in SOME cases and YES in some countries like France and Germany there is a special levy on Disc burners and iPods and so on. And yes we charge VAT.
But in the US you get charged sales tax ! And this sales tax can sometime encompass state, regional and council taxes and amount to more then 10%
If Apple were to cruise at a margin of (say)5% NO ONE would care. When the net profit is -however- >25% one does have the right to start asking questions about rip-off.
Plus : when was the last time Apple paid a DIVIDEND to its shareholders. Usually companies should not be allowed to just sit on the wads of money they made but give (some) back to its rightful owners the shareholders. How come some very profitable tech companies have billions of $ in CASH on their accounts and get away with it ?
Again: "Apple charges too much for their stuff, in general, and I regard their margins as excessive" is a very different topic than "Apple sticks on outrageous surcharges for European customers, far in excess of what other non-EU vendors do".
It might be a good idea to keep those two ideas separate.
Components are mostly sourced in $ again, so is the energy.
Seems like some of that will start changing in the next few years. Dollars are getting cheaper and cheaper, and oil-selling countries aren't happy about it. Some of them are thinking about changing to yens or euros :-/
Does anyone here reckon that the greater freedom France's iPhone purchasers have in deciding which contract to take/service provider to use plays any part in the brisk sales over there?
The article even says 20% have just bought the phone outright without a contract - that's the reason lots of people are holding out here in the UK.
I just bought into a new £35/mo contract for 18 months. Nice new Nokia 6300 for 'free', 400 minutes talk, 600 texts. That Nokia would be an iPhone right now if I could just go out and buy one unlocked.
A little bit of choice goes a long, long way. While I'm a believer in the end-to-end solution (though let's hope iTunes rentals won't be ISP-specific) a lot of Apple's barrier to market revolves around taking decisions away from consumers as part of intelligent design. If they were to offer an unlocked version and a network contract package with extra features they'd make a mint anywhere.
McD
I'm completely mystified as to how what you've written here supports the notion that Apple is unduly ripping off its European customers.
Is it some kind of "Dell sells similar configurations cheaper, therefore Apple is ripping everybody off?" Because that's a completely different, and tedious, contention.
adda, I mostly wanted to correct S10's comparison between Dell's US and EU prices, because it is unfair to compare prices for differently spec'ed models across the pond.
My additional point is that Dell manages to sell computers in the EU for more or less the same net price as in the US. When you look at Apple on the other hand, there is always an extra 15 - 20 % that European customers have to pay for an Apple product on top of the US price and VAT.
Of course, Apple is free to charge as much as they want for their products, but with their current policy in the EU, they are simply overpriced for a large number of possible switchers.
I've seen a good number of unlocked phones in the US, T-Mobile is the only other carrier option. In Europe where the iPhone can be used with virtually any carrier its logical to assume this will be an even bigger trend.
I imagine so but as I said, it's still cheaper to buy a US iPhone, import it into Europe and unlock it so if the rest of my European compatriots want an unlocked phone, it'd be sensible to buy it from the USA, not Europe.
I imagine so but as I said, it's still cheaper to buy a US iPhone, import it into Europe and unlock it so if the rest of my European compatriots want an unlocked phone, it'd be sensible to buy it from the USA, not Europe.
Can you do that without a hack or does Apple know the IMEI of US and European iPhones in order to prevent this undercutting?
Can you do that without a hack or does Apple know the IMEI of US and European iPhones in order to prevent this undercutting?
No idea. But the iPhones sold on ebay.co.uk in the last few months have been USA models.
adda, I mostly wanted to correct S10's comparison between Dell's US and EU prices, because it is unfair to compare prices for differently spec'ed models across the pond.
My additional point is that Dell manages to sell computers in the EU for more or less the same net price as in the US. When you look at Apple on the other hand, there is always an extra 15 - 20 % that European customers have to pay for an Apple product on top of the US price and VAT.
Of course, Apple is free to charge as much as they want for their products, but with their current policy in the EU, they are simply overpriced for a large number of possible switchers.
OK, but it looks like the prices you quoted show that you can get a "similarly specced" Dell for less than Apple charges.
Is it true that Dell sells the same computer in Europe for the equivalent they charge in the states? I just mean the final asking price.
OK, but it looks like the prices you quoted show that you can get a "similarly specced" Dell for less than Apple charges.
I selected the two models more or less randomly by picking a "middle of the road" laptop and a high end PC. This does not contradict your reasoning, there is no doubt that Apple computers cost more than comparable (not identical!) PC hardware.
Is it true that Dell sells the same computer in Europe for the equivalent they charge in the states? I just mean the final asking price.
The numbers I quoted are the final asking prices, of course without taxes and shipping. You can test it yourself, just use http://euro.dell.com and select a country.