Getting an eduction out of country seems to be a good option for you. I don't know that becoming a software developer is necessarily. Being good at using the tool (computers) does not mean you have an aptitude for creating a tool (software). That said, there is much more to computing than software development and those things can leverage more on your strengths.
Look into Information Technology/Information Science and see if that might interest you. I Europe those are subspecialties in the larger Informatiks field. These areas deal with how to best use and manage the tools rather than create them, and those areas may fit you far better.
I pretty much agree with Outsider. If you want to be a developer, don't get stuck on being a Mac developer. A good programmer can enter new environments with very little trouble. Learn one language well, steer clear of spending a lot of time familiarizing yourself with a single framework or environment. Learn the tools of the trade: how to use a good editor, debuggers, version control systems, automated builds. Make small programs that do something useful.
Then learn another language, as different as possible.
You are correct in that you don't need very solid higher math skills to be a developer. It's only necessary to work on math-heavy components. In other kinds of development, you just need enough understanding of math to not do anything stupid. If you get a degree in computer science or software engineering, it'll include maybe one full year's worth of math.
At 19, you don't have the excuse of "having forgot all the math". I suck at math too, and it's difficult for me, but I'll be damned if that stops me from getting a computer science degree. So suck it up and pass those courses.
Look into Information Technology/Information Science and see if that might interest you. I Europe those are subspecialties in the larger Informatiks field. These areas deal with how to best use and manage the tools rather than create them, and those areas may fit you far better.
Thanks for the reply!
I was thinking about that too. The problem is that I don't know what my options are and there is no one around to guide me.
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Originally Posted by Gon
I pretty much agree with Outsider. If you want to be a developer, don't get stuck on being a Mac developer. A good programmer can enter new environments with very little trouble. Learn one language well, steer clear of spending a lot of time familiarizing yourself with a single framework or environment. Learn the tools of the trade: how to use a good editor, debuggers, version control systems, automated builds. Make small programs that do something useful.
Then learn another language, as different as possible.
You are correct in that you don't need very solid higher math skills to be a developer. It's only necessary to work on math-heavy components. In other kinds of development, you just need enough understanding of math to not do anything stupid. If you get a degree in computer science or software engineering, it'll include maybe one full year's worth of math.
At 19, you don't have the excuse of "having forgot all the math". I suck at math too, and it's difficult for me, but I'll be damned if that stops me from getting a computer science degree. So suck it up and pass those courses.
I agree with you. Completely. Thanks for the great reply!
Can you, or anyone out here, recommend some good universities I should look into?
Tulkas mentioned University of Waterloo above, and I've know lots of IT/IS/developers that graduated from RIT(Rochester Institute of Technology) in upstate NY that love the programs up there.
One word of caution though: Rochester is cold. Winter lasts like 6 months out of the year. In January, it gets damn cold.
This is unbelievable. I checked out University of Waterloo's website. Chemistry is one of the subjects in software engineering. That is so unreasonable. Why would any programmer ever have to learn chemistry? And just because I have no aptitude for chemistry does not mean I cannot become a software programmer?
Please don't ask me to "suck it up" and learn chemistry. It is impossible. How can everyone be expected to be able to learn anything?
This is unbelievable. I checked out University of Waterloo's website. Chemistry is one of the subjects in software engineering. That is so unreasonable. Why would any programmer ever have to learn chemistry? And just because I have no aptitude for chemistry does not mean I cannot become a software programmer?
Please don't ask me to "suck it up" and learn chemistry. It is impossible. How can everyone be expected to be able to learn anything?
I think it's very relevant. Let's say you are a programmer for a graphics card company and you are creating software drivers and firmware software for a new graphics card. You need to have a good understanding of thermodynamics when dealing with software that interacts with some hardware. Or you are creating some simulations that will be part of some application or game that requires knowledge of chemistry, physics, and biology. That's just two examples, but there are many other reasons.
If you aren't good at science, you probably aren't good at math. If you aren't REALLY good at math I don't want you anywhere near a software development job. Too much software sucks because the coders don't understand enough math and logic to make their way out of an open paper bag.
Um what? I'm "bad" at math. I took Calc 1 three times. Calc 2 four times. Never took Diff Eq. Took virtually no science (Astronomy does not count).
In 19 years of software development I have not once professionally had to use math above trig and some matrix stuff. And yet, once, a long time ago, my software produced results that got presented at the AAAS and supported nobel winning physics.
Okay, so I actually aced Linear Algebra and Logic but most folks don't think of that as "math". Nor does being good at "math" at the high school level seem to correlate all THAT closely with actual skill as a programmer.
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So either get good at math or pick a different area to work in, like content creation.
Or don't listen to elitist folks.
If you want to code for the Mac, then code for the mac. There are no doubt tutorials out there on how to load XCode and do "Hello World". Then find something interesting to you, try to build it.
There are a good number of high school kids coding and I wrote code in BASIC, COBOL and Z80 assembly in high school umpteen million years ago.
IF you LIKE it THEN pursue a uni degree in computer science.
A vast number of bright folks, more than capable of doing the work simply hate it. My wife has a PhD in chemistry, is good in math, had programming classes, etc would rather have a root canal than write software.
Good coders code.
Do you need chemisty, physics, thermodynamics?
Some of the biggest names in software/computer industry dropped out of the university early. Steve Jobs, Bill Gates are the two that always come to mind. Jeff Han, that folks bring up a lot in these threads, dropped out of Cornell in his junior year to develop for a startup.
The only thing I can safely say after nearly two decades is:
Good coders code. Its in their DNA. Formal education is one potential enabling capability that allows you to maximize your abilities to the fullest. But from my experience the best software developers love what they do and are active rather than academic practitioners.
I guess I'm elitist too but at a much more practical level. You can always get a degree and most employers will even pay for one. What they can't do is instill a burning desire to sling code.
If you still have a burning desire to sling code for OSX after pulling your hair out after a particularly grueling debug session then get a BS in Computer Science. Or drop out your junior year to join a startup. Whichever works.
This is unbelievable. I checked out University of Waterloo's website. Chemistry is one of the subjects in software engineering. That is so unreasonable. Why would any programmer ever have to learn chemistry? And just because I have no aptitude for chemistry does not mean I cannot become a software programmer?
Please don't ask me to "suck it up" and learn chemistry. It is impossible. How can everyone be expected to be able to learn anything?
Because there you are getting an eduction, not vocational job training. Very different things. With an education you are exposed to multiple ways to think and forced to use them in a way that will serve you well in the future. In training you learn how to do some narrow thing usually one way, which leaves you very vulnerable to coming up with poorer solutions than you would hope for.
Not all schools will require the chemistry, but nearly all technical schools will require physics. A good CS degree's math requirements will be through single variable calculus, discreet math, logic (first order + boolean), linear algebra and basic probability/statistics. That's closer to two years of work when spread end to end. All of those require -- 1) a heartbeat and 2) Will -- to pass successfully, nothing more.
Um what? I'm "bad" at math. I took Calc 1 three times. Calc 2 four times. Never took Diff Eq. Took virtually no science (Astronomy does not count).
In 19 years of software development I have not once professionally had to use math above trig and some matrix stuff. And yet, once, a long time ago, my software produced results that got presented at the AAAS and supported nobel winning physics.
Okay, so I actually aced Linear Algebra and Logic but most folks don't think of that as "math". Nor does being good at "math" at the high school level seem to correlate all THAT closely with actual skill as a programmer.
So you ARE good at math, but you try to define that away. As I said earlier, all it take to pass any of those courses is the will to do so. Sure that may also mean an algebra pre-req but so it goes.
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Or don't listen to elitist folks.
The chip on your shoulder isn't becoming.
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If you want to code for the Mac, then code for the mac. There are no doubt tutorials out there on how to load XCode and do "Hello World". Then find something interesting to you, try to build it.
There are a good number of high school kids coding and I wrote code in BASIC, COBOL and Z80 assembly in high school umpteen million years ago.
IF you LIKE it THEN pursue a uni degree in computer science.
A vast number of bright folks, more than capable of doing the work simply hate it. My wife has a PhD in chemistry, is good in math, had programming classes, etc would rather have a root canal than write software.
Good coders code.
No arguments there.
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Do you need chemisty, physics, thermodynamics?
Some of the biggest names in software/computer industry dropped out of the university early. Steve Jobs, Bill Gates are the two that always come to mind. Jeff Han, that folks bring up a lot in these threads, dropped out of Cornell in his junior year to develop for a startup.
And both of them are famous for their marketing abilities, neither for their coding savvy. Hell Bill only wrote a shitty BASIC interpreter, but he sold some other guys OS to IBM before he even had the rights to it himself! Scrambled a bit to get the OS after the fact and the rest is history, but hardly any evidence that avoiding math will help coding. Matter of fact your example made the reasoning behind my IS pitch all the more relevant.
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The only thing I can safely say after nearly two decades is:
Good coders code. Its in their DNA. Formal education is one potential enabling capability that allows you to maximize your abilities to the fullest. But from my experience the best software developers love what they do and are active rather than academic practitioners.
I guess I'm elitist too but at a much more practical level. You can always get a degree and most employers will even pay for one. What they can't do is instill a burning desire to sling code.
If you still have a burning desire to sling code for OSX after pulling your hair out after a particularly grueling debug session then get a BS in Computer Science. Or drop out your junior year to join a startup. Whichever works.
That's all very true. Good coders who fit that description are quite rare though, and the already know it before the need to ask questions.
Not all schools will require the chemistry, but nearly all technical schools will require physics. A good CS degree's math requirements will be through single variable calculus, discreet math, logic (first order + boolean), linear algebra and basic probability/statistics. That's closer to two years of work when spread end to end. All of those require -- 1) a heartbeat and 2) Will -- to pass successfully, nothing more.
At my university it might be two years spread out, but it's while you do other stuff such as that programming thingy. The actual workload and time spent in math is more like a year of full-time work.
No chemistry here either. CS degree includes two physics courses which are just applied math, really. A lot easier than the actual math courses.
One thing that makes this stuff harder for me is that it's so spread out. I'd love to be able to do the work like a project instead of bit by bit every week.
So you ARE good at math, but you try to define that away. As I said earlier, all it take to pass any of those courses is the will to do so. Sure that may also mean an algebra pre-req but so it goes.
Nope, it isn't math as anyone would think of math. The linear algebra does involve numbers but I think I just got lucky my brain likes that stuff. Do you need linear algebra? No. The only reason I've even ever touched it is 3D graphics and some geo stuff. Do you need to be able to do formal proofs? No. Heck No.
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The chip on your shoulder isn't becoming.
I'm not the one telling someone that if they can't do math (in the sense that anyone in high school would consider math) to go become a content creator (my that sounds like a big chip there too...some content creator making more $$$ than you?) or whining about "deadbeats" doing programming in the dot com boom.
Is "just the facts of life in a uncluttered though blunt manner" only good when applied to high school kids and not you?
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And both of them are famous for their marketing abilities, neither for their coding savvy. Hell Bill only wrote a shitty BASIC interpreter, but he sold some other guys OS to IBM before he even had the rights to it himself!
Have you written a BASIC interpreter, shitty or otherwise? Would you like to diss Jeff Han as well? The guy helped code CU See Me.
Now Gates was actually good at math and science according to various bios and the guy was coding when he was 13. He and Allen wrote code on a 8008 to count traffic when 14 and made $20K selling those systems the first year.
How much money did you make selling code at 14? I bet a lot less than $20K.
And the "shitty" BASIC interpreter was done in a few weeks and they had to build an Altair emulator first. How many CEOs did you demo code to in college that resulted in a shipping product and a job offer?
Jeez.
These guys are uber geeks with real cred. Not marketing fluff. Well Jobs less so but he's a geek with a RDF which is an even rarer breed.
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Scrambled a bit to get the OS after the fact and the rest is history, but hardly any evidence that avoiding math will help coding. Matter of fact your example made the reasoning behind my IS pitch all the more relevant.
Are you saying that every awesome coder has a formal degree in computer science?
And the point isn't that avoiding math helps coding but that math is not necessarily a prerequisite of good coding.
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That's all very true. Good coders who fit that description are quite rare though, and the already know it before the need to ask questions.
The guy appears to not like math and science so there is a possibility that coding will also not appeal. There's not much point in trying to find an optimal university for computer science before suggesting that he try coding to see if its fun or it sucks.
I certainly value education and believe that going to a university broadens the mind. But so do other things and may not be the best fit for all personalities. Not even all personalities that code.
You provided absolutes. I provide counterexamples to disprove your absolutes. Does that mean education is valueless?
No.
But formal training is not an absolute requirement that you make it out to be. I was a pretty decent coder in high school. Could I have gotten the knowledge about data structures, software design, etc some place other than school?
Yes.
Was getting a CS degree the most efficient method?
Maybe. In my case it also involved a lot of drinking.
But you also learn a lot on your first job. In this day and age your "first job" in a programming sense could easily be an open source project.
One of the best programmers I knew had a music degree. That guy could code rings around me and damn few folks can code rings around me. Or at least that I admit to anyway.
So bottom line:
You don't need math to succeed as a coder. But it helps.
You don't need science to succeed as a coder. But it helps.
You don't need a university degree to succeed as a coder. But it helps.
You gotta like coding or it will drive you batshit crazy. It is not required but it really helps quality of life.
So figure out the last thing and if you like it, then worry about the math requirements and stuff.
And the real "just the facts of life in a uncluttered though blunt manner" is go to as great a university as you can manage (because the brightest and richest folks will be there), meet as many truly interesting people as you can and drink lots of beer with them without flunking out of school.
This is unbelievable. I checked out University of Waterloo's website. Chemistry is one of the subjects in software engineering. That is so unreasonable. Why would any programmer ever have to learn chemistry? And just because I have no aptitude for chemistry does not mean I cannot become a software programmer?
Please don't ask me to "suck it up" and learn chemistry. It is impossible. How can everyone be expected to be able to learn anything?
The software engineering program is relatively new (introduced after my time anyway). I believe it was brought in to bridge the gap between the computer science and computer engineering programs. CS was part of the maths faculty and comp eng was part of the engineering program.
If you want to avoid the pure sciences, the CS program is basically a math degree. You will need fairly high grades to get in. It is (or was) an advanced honours program.
Thanks to everyone for the participation and the interesting and enlightening discussion!
I have made my decision. I'm not leaving India. I now intend to join the Bachelor of Computer Applications graduation course in a decent college out here. The course is mostly computer related stuff and some basic mathematics for the first year and a half that I'm sure I can handle.
Once I am familiar with the basics, I'm sure the Internet and my love for coding and the Mac platform will be enough to see me through. The one thing I am absolutely sure of is that I love coding and have the potential to be good at it and if "good coders code" then so will I.
Nope, it isn't math <snip> Do you need to be able to do formal proofs? No. Heck No.
What's recursion? It's just a proof by induction. So yeah, you need to be able to formulate the essence of formal proofs, even if you don't think so and they aren't flowered up with rule citations. Matter of fact it's a hell of a lot easier to code recursion if you understand that, and bypassing the formal education completely robs you of that avenue of thinking about the problem. So you recurse via blind divide and conquer, which is really just brute force.
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I'm not the one telling someone that if they can't do math (in the sense that anyone in high school would consider math) to go become a content creator (my that sounds like a big chip there too...some content creator making more $$$ than you?) or whining about "deadbeats" doing programming in the dot com boom.
No chip here. Look around you at the software in existence. Most of it is shiite written by people who really shouldn't code. Not because I say they shouldn't, but because the end result evidence of their skill says so.
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Is "just the facts of life in a uncluttered though blunt manner" only good when applied to high school kids and not you?
No, Coding is not my primary purpose in life. I do code, I work with a lot of coders, but am quite secure in my realization that you could probably code circles around me. I'm about a 7.5 on the 10 scale coding, but happen to be higher in the problem solving/R&D side. So I play to my strength, not my weakness - even if that weakness doesn't suck. It's only smart. Do you want some kid to make a lifelong mistake by flying blind?
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Have you written a BASIC interpreter, shitty or otherwise?
No, I wrote a point-of-sale/inventory control/billing system from scratch in dBase2, then graduated college and moved on. The store chain owner productized the bundle and made a second successful business off it about two years after I left. That was over thirty years ago, it ran on Kaypros and Osbournes. So my cred stands. I personally wrote software that sold well for a few years.
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Would you like to diss Jeff Han as well? The guy helped code CU See Me.
No, why would I? He still does good wotk with his multi-touch interfaces. Original work that HE is doing. Not just trying to sell someone elses stuff. And no, I harbor no ill will to Bob for selling the stuff I wrote. I was his employee and he paid me quite well for a hourly college worker while I was working for him.
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Now Gates was actually good at math and science according to various bios and the guy was coding when he was 13. He and Allen wrote code on a 8008 to count traffic when 14 and made $20K selling those systems the first year.
How much money did you make selling code at 14? I bet a lot less than $20K.
That story is more than a slight exaggeration. The 8008 wasn't even released until 1972, when Gates was 17 years old. Don't believe all of everything you read on Wikipedia.
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And the "shitty" BASIC interpreter was done in a few weeks and they had to build an Altair emulator first. How many CEOs did you demo code to in college that resulted in a shipping product and a job offer?
None. I told the CEO (actually just the president since it wasn't a corporation) what I could do for him and he hired me. Then I wrote the code for the him and he sold it later.
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Jeez.
These guys are uber geeks with real cred. Not marketing fluff. Well Jobs less so but he's a geek with a RDF which is an even rarer breed.
Nope, they are singularly great businessmen in the field of technology, with the exception of Han who maintains his technical credibility.
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Are you saying that every awesome coder has a formal degree in computer science?
Nope. I was answering the OP's questions and responding to his disdain for math and science. A very specific set of circumstances you have lost sight of temporarily.
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And the point isn't that avoiding math helps coding but that math is not necessarily a prerequisite of good coding.
The guy appears to not like math and science so there is a possibility that coding will also not appeal. There's not much point in trying to find an optimal university for computer science before suggesting that he try coding to see if its fun or it sucks.
From experience working with people it is more likely a strong probability. Mileage will vary since we are not in face to face contact with the OP, but people who actually break the mold they create themselves are uncommon.
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I certainly value education and believe that going to a university broadens the mind. But so do other things and may not be the best fit for all personalities. Not even all personalities that code.
You provided absolutes. I provide counterexamples to disprove your absolutes. Does that mean education is valueless?
No.
But formal training is not an absolute requirement that you make it out to be. I was a pretty decent coder in high school. Could I have gotten the knowledge about data structures, software design, etc some place other than school?
Yes.
You provide snake-oil that is only useful when it was never needed in the first place. The kind of person that can overcome that lack of formal training is very rare, they exist, but they are so good already that they don't need our guidance to start off with. They are already doing stuff they want to do and are in demand from word of mouth. Hire one and pay them well 'cause you can't replace them with a team.
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Was getting a CS degree the most efficient method?
Maybe. In my case it also involved a lot of drinking.
But you also learn a lot on your first job. In this day and age your "first job" in a programming sense could easily be an open source project.
One of the best programmers I knew had a music degree. That guy could code rings around me and damn few folks can code rings around me. Or at least that I admit to anyway.
So bottom line:
You don't need math to succeed as a coder. But it helps.
You don't need science to succeed as a coder. But it helps.
You don't need a university degree to succeed as a coder. But it helps.
I disagree with the amount of downplay, but oh well.
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You gotta like coding or it will drive you batshit crazy. It is not required but it really helps quality of life.
So figure out the last thing and if you like it, then worry about the math requirements and stuff.
And the real "just the facts of life in a uncluttered though blunt manner" is go to as great a university as you can manage (because the brightest and richest folks will be there), meet as many truly interesting people as you can and drink lots of beer with them without flunking out of school.
Thanks to everyone for the participation and the interesting and enlightening discussion!
I have made my decision. I'm not leaving India. I now intend to join the Bachelor of Computer Applications graduation course in a decent college out here. The course is mostly computer related stuff and some basic mathematics for the first year and a half that I'm sure I can handle.
Once I am familiar with the basics, I'm sure the Internet and my love for coding and the Mac platform will be enough to see me through. The one thing I am absolutely sure of is that I love coding and have the potential to be good at it and if "good coders code" then so will I.
vinea and I may have some differences of opinion, but bottom line we both seem to agree desire has a lot to do with success. You will do well as long as you want to do well.
vinea and I may have some differences of opinion, but bottom line we both seem to agree desire has a lot to do with success. You will do well as long as you want to do well.
BTW, if you guys are interested, I'll be writing for Apple Matters and MacUser soon (in a day or two). If you happen to read any of whatever I write, please let me know whether it is any good.
Comments
Look into Information Technology/Information Science and see if that might interest you. I Europe those are subspecialties in the larger Informatiks field. These areas deal with how to best use and manage the tools rather than create them, and those areas may fit you far better.
Then learn another language, as different as possible.
You are correct in that you don't need very solid higher math skills to be a developer. It's only necessary to work on math-heavy components. In other kinds of development, you just need enough understanding of math to not do anything stupid. If you get a degree in computer science or software engineering, it'll include maybe one full year's worth of math.
At 19, you don't have the excuse of "having forgot all the math". I suck at math too, and it's difficult for me, but I'll be damned if that stops me from getting a computer science degree. So suck it up and pass those courses.
And a physicist slaps himself with the logic stick! Did anyone say being good at science guarantees you are good at math?
Your likely exalted threshold of suckage probably makes most folks look positively hopeless. We won't mention logic in the same breath though
I suck at logic too.
As a matter of fact, I wonder how I ever got into grad school. damn i'm lucky.
Look into Information Technology/Information Science and see if that might interest you. I Europe those are subspecialties in the larger Informatiks field. These areas deal with how to best use and manage the tools rather than create them, and those areas may fit you far better.
Thanks for the reply!
I was thinking about that too. The problem is that I don't know what my options are and there is no one around to guide me.
I pretty much agree with Outsider. If you want to be a developer, don't get stuck on being a Mac developer. A good programmer can enter new environments with very little trouble. Learn one language well, steer clear of spending a lot of time familiarizing yourself with a single framework or environment. Learn the tools of the trade: how to use a good editor, debuggers, version control systems, automated builds. Make small programs that do something useful.
Then learn another language, as different as possible.
You are correct in that you don't need very solid higher math skills to be a developer. It's only necessary to work on math-heavy components. In other kinds of development, you just need enough understanding of math to not do anything stupid. If you get a degree in computer science or software engineering, it'll include maybe one full year's worth of math.
At 19, you don't have the excuse of "having forgot all the math". I suck at math too, and it's difficult for me, but I'll be damned if that stops me from getting a computer science degree. So suck it up and pass those courses.
I agree with you. Completely. Thanks for the great reply!
Can you, or anyone out here, recommend some good universities I should look into?
One word of caution though: Rochester is cold. Winter lasts like 6 months out of the year. In January, it gets damn cold.
Please don't ask me to "suck it up" and learn chemistry. It is impossible. How can everyone be expected to be able to learn anything?
This is unbelievable. I checked out University of Waterloo's website. Chemistry is one of the subjects in software engineering. That is so unreasonable. Why would any programmer ever have to learn chemistry? And just because I have no aptitude for chemistry does not mean I cannot become a software programmer?
Please don't ask me to "suck it up" and learn chemistry. It is impossible. How can everyone be expected to be able to learn anything?
I think it's very relevant. Let's say you are a programmer for a graphics card company and you are creating software drivers and firmware software for a new graphics card. You need to have a good understanding of thermodynamics when dealing with software that interacts with some hardware. Or you are creating some simulations that will be part of some application or game that requires knowledge of chemistry, physics, and biology. That's just two examples, but there are many other reasons.
Suck it up!
If you aren't good at science, you probably aren't good at math. If you aren't REALLY good at math I don't want you anywhere near a software development job. Too much software sucks because the coders don't understand enough math and logic to make their way out of an open paper bag.
Um what? I'm "bad" at math. I took Calc 1 three times. Calc 2 four times. Never took Diff Eq. Took virtually no science (Astronomy does not count).
In 19 years of software development I have not once professionally had to use math above trig and some matrix stuff. And yet, once, a long time ago, my software produced results that got presented at the AAAS and supported nobel winning physics.
Okay, so I actually aced Linear Algebra and Logic but most folks don't think of that as "math". Nor does being good at "math" at the high school level seem to correlate all THAT closely with actual skill as a programmer.
So either get good at math or pick a different area to work in, like content creation.
Or don't listen to elitist folks.
If you want to code for the Mac, then code for the mac. There are no doubt tutorials out there on how to load XCode and do "Hello World". Then find something interesting to you, try to build it.
There are a good number of high school kids coding and I wrote code in BASIC, COBOL and Z80 assembly in high school umpteen million years ago.
IF you LIKE it THEN pursue a uni degree in computer science.
A vast number of bright folks, more than capable of doing the work simply hate it. My wife has a PhD in chemistry, is good in math, had programming classes, etc would rather have a root canal than write software.
Good coders code.
Do you need chemisty, physics, thermodynamics?
Some of the biggest names in software/computer industry dropped out of the university early. Steve Jobs, Bill Gates are the two that always come to mind. Jeff Han, that folks bring up a lot in these threads, dropped out of Cornell in his junior year to develop for a startup.
The only thing I can safely say after nearly two decades is:
Good coders code. Its in their DNA. Formal education is one potential enabling capability that allows you to maximize your abilities to the fullest. But from my experience the best software developers love what they do and are active rather than academic practitioners.
I guess I'm elitist too but at a much more practical level. You can always get a degree and most employers will even pay for one. What they can't do is instill a burning desire to sling code.
If you still have a burning desire to sling code for OSX after pulling your hair out after a particularly grueling debug session then get a BS in Computer Science. Or drop out your junior year to join a startup. Whichever works.
This is unbelievable. I checked out University of Waterloo's website. Chemistry is one of the subjects in software engineering. That is so unreasonable. Why would any programmer ever have to learn chemistry? And just because I have no aptitude for chemistry does not mean I cannot become a software programmer?
Please don't ask me to "suck it up" and learn chemistry. It is impossible. How can everyone be expected to be able to learn anything?
Because there you are getting an eduction, not vocational job training. Very different things. With an education you are exposed to multiple ways to think and forced to use them in a way that will serve you well in the future. In training you learn how to do some narrow thing usually one way, which leaves you very vulnerable to coming up with poorer solutions than you would hope for.
Not all schools will require the chemistry, but nearly all technical schools will require physics. A good CS degree's math requirements will be through single variable calculus, discreet math, logic (first order + boolean), linear algebra and basic probability/statistics. That's closer to two years of work when spread end to end. All of those require -- 1) a heartbeat and 2) Will -- to pass successfully, nothing more.
Um what? I'm "bad" at math. I took Calc 1 three times. Calc 2 four times. Never took Diff Eq. Took virtually no science (Astronomy does not count).
In 19 years of software development I have not once professionally had to use math above trig and some matrix stuff. And yet, once, a long time ago, my software produced results that got presented at the AAAS and supported nobel winning physics.
Okay, so I actually aced Linear Algebra and Logic but most folks don't think of that as "math". Nor does being good at "math" at the high school level seem to correlate all THAT closely with actual skill as a programmer.
So you ARE good at math, but you try to define that away. As I said earlier, all it take to pass any of those courses is the will to do so. Sure that may also mean an algebra pre-req but so it goes.
Or don't listen to elitist folks.
The chip on your shoulder isn't becoming.
If you want to code for the Mac, then code for the mac. There are no doubt tutorials out there on how to load XCode and do "Hello World". Then find something interesting to you, try to build it.
There are a good number of high school kids coding and I wrote code in BASIC, COBOL and Z80 assembly in high school umpteen million years ago.
IF you LIKE it THEN pursue a uni degree in computer science.
A vast number of bright folks, more than capable of doing the work simply hate it. My wife has a PhD in chemistry, is good in math, had programming classes, etc would rather have a root canal than write software.
Good coders code.
No arguments there.
Do you need chemisty, physics, thermodynamics?
Some of the biggest names in software/computer industry dropped out of the university early. Steve Jobs, Bill Gates are the two that always come to mind. Jeff Han, that folks bring up a lot in these threads, dropped out of Cornell in his junior year to develop for a startup.
And both of them are famous for their marketing abilities, neither for their coding savvy. Hell Bill only wrote a shitty BASIC interpreter, but he sold some other guys OS to IBM before he even had the rights to it himself! Scrambled a bit to get the OS after the fact and the rest is history, but hardly any evidence that avoiding math will help coding. Matter of fact your example made the reasoning behind my IS pitch all the more relevant.
The only thing I can safely say after nearly two decades is:
Good coders code. Its in their DNA. Formal education is one potential enabling capability that allows you to maximize your abilities to the fullest. But from my experience the best software developers love what they do and are active rather than academic practitioners.
I guess I'm elitist too but at a much more practical level. You can always get a degree and most employers will even pay for one. What they can't do is instill a burning desire to sling code.
If you still have a burning desire to sling code for OSX after pulling your hair out after a particularly grueling debug session then get a BS in Computer Science. Or drop out your junior year to join a startup. Whichever works.
That's all very true. Good coders who fit that description are quite rare though, and the already know it before the need to ask questions.
Not all schools will require the chemistry, but nearly all technical schools will require physics. A good CS degree's math requirements will be through single variable calculus, discreet math, logic (first order + boolean), linear algebra and basic probability/statistics. That's closer to two years of work when spread end to end. All of those require -- 1) a heartbeat and 2) Will -- to pass successfully, nothing more.
At my university it might be two years spread out, but it's while you do other stuff such as that programming thingy. The actual workload and time spent in math is more like a year of full-time work.
No chemistry here either. CS degree includes two physics courses which are just applied math, really. A lot easier than the actual math courses.
One thing that makes this stuff harder for me is that it's so spread out. I'd love to be able to do the work like a project instead of bit by bit every week.
So you ARE good at math, but you try to define that away. As I said earlier, all it take to pass any of those courses is the will to do so. Sure that may also mean an algebra pre-req but so it goes.
Nope, it isn't math as anyone would think of math. The linear algebra does involve numbers but I think I just got lucky my brain likes that stuff. Do you need linear algebra? No. The only reason I've even ever touched it is 3D graphics and some geo stuff. Do you need to be able to do formal proofs? No. Heck No.
The chip on your shoulder isn't becoming.
I'm not the one telling someone that if they can't do math (in the sense that anyone in high school would consider math) to go become a content creator (my that sounds like a big chip there too...some content creator making more $$$ than you?) or whining about "deadbeats" doing programming in the dot com boom.
Is "just the facts of life in a uncluttered though blunt manner" only good when applied to high school kids and not you?
And both of them are famous for their marketing abilities, neither for their coding savvy. Hell Bill only wrote a shitty BASIC interpreter, but he sold some other guys OS to IBM before he even had the rights to it himself!
Have you written a BASIC interpreter, shitty or otherwise? Would you like to diss Jeff Han as well? The guy helped code CU See Me.
Now Gates was actually good at math and science according to various bios and the guy was coding when he was 13. He and Allen wrote code on a 8008 to count traffic when 14 and made $20K selling those systems the first year.
How much money did you make selling code at 14? I bet a lot less than $20K.
And the "shitty" BASIC interpreter was done in a few weeks and they had to build an Altair emulator first. How many CEOs did you demo code to in college that resulted in a shipping product and a job offer?
Jeez.
These guys are uber geeks with real cred. Not marketing fluff. Well Jobs less so but he's a geek with a RDF which is an even rarer breed.
Scrambled a bit to get the OS after the fact and the rest is history, but hardly any evidence that avoiding math will help coding. Matter of fact your example made the reasoning behind my IS pitch all the more relevant.
Are you saying that every awesome coder has a formal degree in computer science?
And the point isn't that avoiding math helps coding but that math is not necessarily a prerequisite of good coding.
That's all very true. Good coders who fit that description are quite rare though, and the already know it before the need to ask questions.
The guy appears to not like math and science so there is a possibility that coding will also not appeal. There's not much point in trying to find an optimal university for computer science before suggesting that he try coding to see if its fun or it sucks.
I certainly value education and believe that going to a university broadens the mind. But so do other things and may not be the best fit for all personalities. Not even all personalities that code.
You provided absolutes. I provide counterexamples to disprove your absolutes. Does that mean education is valueless?
No.
But formal training is not an absolute requirement that you make it out to be. I was a pretty decent coder in high school. Could I have gotten the knowledge about data structures, software design, etc some place other than school?
Yes.
Was getting a CS degree the most efficient method?
Maybe. In my case it also involved a lot of drinking.
But you also learn a lot on your first job. In this day and age your "first job" in a programming sense could easily be an open source project.
One of the best programmers I knew had a music degree. That guy could code rings around me and damn few folks can code rings around me. Or at least that I admit to anyway.
So bottom line:
You don't need math to succeed as a coder. But it helps.
You don't need science to succeed as a coder. But it helps.
You don't need a university degree to succeed as a coder. But it helps.
You gotta like coding or it will drive you batshit crazy. It is not required but it really helps quality of life.
So figure out the last thing and if you like it, then worry about the math requirements and stuff.
And the real "just the facts of life in a uncluttered though blunt manner" is go to as great a university as you can manage (because the brightest and richest folks will be there), meet as many truly interesting people as you can and drink lots of beer with them without flunking out of school.
This is unbelievable. I checked out University of Waterloo's website. Chemistry is one of the subjects in software engineering. That is so unreasonable. Why would any programmer ever have to learn chemistry? And just because I have no aptitude for chemistry does not mean I cannot become a software programmer?
Please don't ask me to "suck it up" and learn chemistry. It is impossible. How can everyone be expected to be able to learn anything?
The software engineering program is relatively new (introduced after my time anyway). I believe it was brought in to bridge the gap between the computer science and computer engineering programs. CS was part of the maths faculty and comp eng was part of the engineering program.
If you want to avoid the pure sciences, the CS program is basically a math degree. You will need fairly high grades to get in. It is (or was) an advanced honours program.
I have made my decision. I'm not leaving India. I now intend to join the Bachelor of Computer Applications graduation course in a decent college out here. The course is mostly computer related stuff and some basic mathematics for the first year and a half that I'm sure I can handle.
Once I am familiar with the basics, I'm sure the Internet and my love for coding and the Mac platform will be enough to see me through. The one thing I am absolutely sure of is that I love coding and have the potential to be good at it and if "good coders code" then so will I.
Nope, it isn't math <snip> Do you need to be able to do formal proofs? No. Heck No.
What's recursion? It's just a proof by induction. So yeah, you need to be able to formulate the essence of formal proofs, even if you don't think so and they aren't flowered up with rule citations. Matter of fact it's a hell of a lot easier to code recursion if you understand that, and bypassing the formal education completely robs you of that avenue of thinking about the problem. So you recurse via blind divide and conquer, which is really just brute force.
I'm not the one telling someone that if they can't do math (in the sense that anyone in high school would consider math) to go become a content creator (my that sounds like a big chip there too...some content creator making more $$$ than you?) or whining about "deadbeats" doing programming in the dot com boom.
No chip here. Look around you at the software in existence. Most of it is shiite written by people who really shouldn't code. Not because I say they shouldn't, but because the end result evidence of their skill says so.
Is "just the facts of life in a uncluttered though blunt manner" only good when applied to high school kids and not you?
No, Coding is not my primary purpose in life. I do code, I work with a lot of coders, but am quite secure in my realization that you could probably code circles around me. I'm about a 7.5 on the 10 scale coding, but happen to be higher in the problem solving/R&D side. So I play to my strength, not my weakness - even if that weakness doesn't suck. It's only smart. Do you want some kid to make a lifelong mistake by flying blind?
Have you written a BASIC interpreter, shitty or otherwise?
No, I wrote a point-of-sale/inventory control/billing system from scratch in dBase2, then graduated college and moved on. The store chain owner productized the bundle and made a second successful business off it about two years after I left. That was over thirty years ago, it ran on Kaypros and Osbournes. So my cred stands. I personally wrote software that sold well for a few years.
Would you like to diss Jeff Han as well? The guy helped code CU See Me.
No, why would I? He still does good wotk with his multi-touch interfaces. Original work that HE is doing. Not just trying to sell someone elses stuff. And no, I harbor no ill will to Bob for selling the stuff I wrote. I was his employee and he paid me quite well for a hourly college worker while I was working for him.
Now Gates was actually good at math and science according to various bios and the guy was coding when he was 13. He and Allen wrote code on a 8008 to count traffic when 14 and made $20K selling those systems the first year.
How much money did you make selling code at 14? I bet a lot less than $20K.
That story is more than a slight exaggeration. The 8008 wasn't even released until 1972, when Gates was 17 years old. Don't believe all of everything you read on Wikipedia.
And the "shitty" BASIC interpreter was done in a few weeks and they had to build an Altair emulator first. How many CEOs did you demo code to in college that resulted in a shipping product and a job offer?
None. I told the CEO (actually just the president since it wasn't a corporation) what I could do for him and he hired me. Then I wrote the code for the him and he sold it later.
Jeez.
These guys are uber geeks with real cred. Not marketing fluff. Well Jobs less so but he's a geek with a RDF which is an even rarer breed.
Nope, they are singularly great businessmen in the field of technology, with the exception of Han who maintains his technical credibility.
Are you saying that every awesome coder has a formal degree in computer science?
Nope. I was answering the OP's questions and responding to his disdain for math and science. A very specific set of circumstances you have lost sight of temporarily.
And the point isn't that avoiding math helps coding but that math is not necessarily a prerequisite of good coding.
The guy appears to not like math and science so there is a possibility that coding will also not appeal. There's not much point in trying to find an optimal university for computer science before suggesting that he try coding to see if its fun or it sucks.
From experience working with people it is more likely a strong probability. Mileage will vary since we are not in face to face contact with the OP, but people who actually break the mold they create themselves are uncommon.
I certainly value education and believe that going to a university broadens the mind. But so do other things and may not be the best fit for all personalities. Not even all personalities that code.
You provided absolutes. I provide counterexamples to disprove your absolutes. Does that mean education is valueless?
No.
But formal training is not an absolute requirement that you make it out to be. I was a pretty decent coder in high school. Could I have gotten the knowledge about data structures, software design, etc some place other than school?
Yes.
You provide snake-oil that is only useful when it was never needed in the first place. The kind of person that can overcome that lack of formal training is very rare, they exist, but they are so good already that they don't need our guidance to start off with. They are already doing stuff they want to do and are in demand from word of mouth. Hire one and pay them well 'cause you can't replace them with a team.
Was getting a CS degree the most efficient method?
Maybe. In my case it also involved a lot of drinking.
But you also learn a lot on your first job. In this day and age your "first job" in a programming sense could easily be an open source project.
One of the best programmers I knew had a music degree. That guy could code rings around me and damn few folks can code rings around me. Or at least that I admit to anyway.
So bottom line:
You don't need math to succeed as a coder. But it helps.
You don't need science to succeed as a coder. But it helps.
You don't need a university degree to succeed as a coder. But it helps.
I disagree with the amount of downplay, but oh well.
You gotta like coding or it will drive you batshit crazy. It is not required but it really helps quality of life.
So figure out the last thing and if you like it, then worry about the math requirements and stuff.
And the real "just the facts of life in a uncluttered though blunt manner" is go to as great a university as you can manage (because the brightest and richest folks will be there), meet as many truly interesting people as you can and drink lots of beer with them without flunking out of school.
For the most part, yes.
Thanks to everyone for the participation and the interesting and enlightening discussion!
I have made my decision. I'm not leaving India. I now intend to join the Bachelor of Computer Applications graduation course in a decent college out here. The course is mostly computer related stuff and some basic mathematics for the first year and a half that I'm sure I can handle.
Once I am familiar with the basics, I'm sure the Internet and my love for coding and the Mac platform will be enough to see me through. The one thing I am absolutely sure of is that I love coding and have the potential to be good at it and if "good coders code" then so will I.
vinea and I may have some differences of opinion, but bottom line we both seem to agree desire has a lot to do with success. You will do well as long as you want to do well.
Good luck!
vinea and I may have some differences of opinion, but bottom line we both seem to agree desire has a lot to do with success. You will do well as long as you want to do well.
Good luck!
Yes, good luck and have fun!
BTW, if you guys are interested, I'll be writing for Apple Matters and MacUser soon (in a day or two). If you happen to read any of whatever I write, please let me know whether it is any good.