i have "heard'" from someone i know that apple will be bringing elgato on stage. they are opening up the apple tv usb port for elgato usb tuners. o apple don't get bogged down with that market and let elgato deal with it.
not sure if this is for current apple tv's with a software upgrade or a new model.
That's a great solution. I have an Elgato Hybrid USB connected to my iMac G5 and it does everything:
? records cable TV vis direct cable connection into the end of the USB stick connection to your Mac
? the software allows for two advanced programmed recording from or away from you computer (web based)
? allows for conversion of downloaded programs to Apple TV, Toast, iPod
Doesn't sound like you get it to me. Apple's intention for ATV is to use digital downloads as a replacement for DVD as a delivery medium.
Exactly - which is why I'm predicting that the only major change for AppleTV is upgrading its specs to HD.
Sure, I'd love a box that has a Blu-Ray drive, digital tuner, and DVR capability, but I just don't see it happening - it is far too different than Apple's current business model.
Exactly - which is why I'm predicting that the only major change for AppleTV is upgrading its specs to HD.
That may be true but two questions:
1. Where's the HD content for download?
2. Who's got enough bandwidth to download HD content?
Those are the obstacles that ATV has yet to overcome. An integrated blu ray player would be a way for the ATV to again entry into homes until the content and bandwidth 'catch up' to the market but its probably cost prohibitive to do so.
As i said earlier, I think the device is ahead of its time.
Apple is not going to get into selling TV displays.
All they have to do is add a tuner to a 30" Cinema display and there's your ATV. Better yet, make a 30" iMac pro media server edition, ie ethernet, bluray, airport etc add a iPhone remote interface app, TV guides already D/L, and away you go. Worlds best media centre, it will only be $4000
They should rename it the iTunes TV to help people understand what it is. "Apple TV" is a big mystery and people are too busy these days to find out what it does.
There are 2 things interesting about this product.
That it was expensive but fell short of being truly useful, and just added to the jumble of multimedia devices owned by most people.
That some people, including Apple executives, ignored this.
Apple missed a great opportunity to sneak a Mac computer into peoples' lounge rooms in the guise of a media centre, that then made having a PC redundant.
2. Who's got enough bandwidth to download HD content?
Those are the obstacles that ATV has yet to overcome. An integrated blu ray player would be a way for the ATV to again entry into homes until the content and bandwidth 'catch up' to the market but its probably cost prohibitive to do so.
As i said earlier, I think the device is ahead of its time.
1. Chicken and egg. If Apple TV goes to HD, it would not be hard for iTunes store to make the content available in HD.
2. I have plenty of bandwidth to download HD - just not in real time. I buy my movies this morning and they're downloaded and ready to go by tonight. Not ideal, but workable.
Blu-Ray goes against the entire purpose of the Apple TV. Apple's product is for online movie purchase. If they put an optical disk on it, you don't need to purchase a download. Besides, most people already have a DVD connected to their TV. Why one more optical device? If you're going to use it solely to play Blu-Ray disks, it has no advantage over a standalone player. Furthermore, adding Blu-Ray makes the unit WAY more expensive - which makes it less practical for everyone.
...I'd really like to see a melding of the mini and the aTV...
I also think that would be ideal.
I'll be buying SOMETHING in the next couple of weeks. If the aTV doesn't include an optical drive (I'd settle for SD) AND better video format support, then I'm going to go with a MacMini (hopefully with HDMI output, but I'll use the DVI/VGA out if that's all I can get.)
Blu-Ray goes against the entire purpose of the Apple TV. Apple's product is for online movie purchase. If they put an optical disk on it, you don't need to purchase a download. Besides, most people already have a DVD connected to their TV. Why one more optical device? If you're going to use it solely to play Blu-Ray disks, it has no advantage over a standalone player. Furthermore, adding Blu-Ray makes the unit WAY more expensive - which makes it less practical for everyone.
You seem to be missing what everyone is saying. Since you realize most people already have a DVD player (I'd say probably 100% who'd consider an AppleTV), then buying an AppleTV just adds yet another box into the mix. Another box hardly simplifies the process.
Fine, Apple wants the future to be for me download stuff, but in the process it shouldn't obsolete my current media collection. Adding DVD functionality to the AppleTV at a minimum would cost Apple mere dollars and would allow everyone to continue to use their current DVD library. Sure, some small fraction on these sites are willing to rip their entire DVD collection, invest in the storage that requires, and live with the current loss of discrete surround and features (like even simple features like subtitles). If nothing else, that is one of the selling points of Blu-Ray that you can still use your DVD collection.
Again, I think the best thing for Apple to do is let it do all the things people want it to do. Why can't Apple offer different models? The basic with no optical drive, one with just DVD, and a premium model with Blu-Ray support? Maybe make DVR completely external that is bought separately. Or use a build-to-order system where DVR would be an add-on feature.
The arguments about why Apple won't support DVR are confusing. Some people argue that it eats into iTunes Store profit. Then people state Apple makes little to no more on iTunes purchases. Or it goes against Apple's business model. Isn't Apple primarily in the hardware business?
One of the biggest issues I have with digital downloads is that the iTunes or Amazon Unbox purchases aren't just competing platforms, they are competing formats as well. These formats also, unfortunately, lock the purchaser into one platform as well. Until the studios get it together and create one FORMAT to launch digital downloads, the market will continue to be an utter mess.
If AppleTV remains a digital download/streaming box only, I don't it will ever have mass appeal. I would personally never touch it in this version. It seems like there are many people here who agree. Apple is free to keep its overly locked down device.
Hey, bsenka get's it, and Caliminius and several others as well. If I'm the crazy one then I'm in good company.
While I don't really care much for the PVR, adding the ability to replace extra devices helps the aTV act as a trojan to actually *Get* a device that introduces digital downloads into the home. If they don't do it, someone will. Who knows, perhaps Sony will add features to the PS3 to allow this to happen
"Sounds as if you need to stick with the DVD player."
Oh, of course, because since I've bought all my past content on optical media, all my future purchases will be as well. DVD players are cheap now, like dirt cheap. What is your problem with something as simple as a DVD drive added to aTV? It would seem natural if the mini and aTV meld into a single cohesive device.
"Currently no one box does all these things."
That's a wondersful reason *not* to do it?
"Which to me says Netflix".
Sorry, digital downloads aside, Netflix offers a lot more than "acceptable quality". They offer DVD and HD for whatever my viewing pleasure dictates.
There *has* to be a device that caters to the needs of people during this transition to *eventual* pervasive VOD. The current infrastructure does not support this fantasy in the near term.
Cable boxes already come with PVRs in them, and you can order movies with them. Only thing missing is an optical player/recorder (DVD or Blu-Ray) built-in. First box to market with that will own the home video market the way iPods own the music player market now.
You think its a coincidence that there are several different devices? That no one but you has thought of bringing all of these functions together? There are a couple of problems that are the reason why there are no devices that do all of this.
For one most or all of these functions contradict each others business models. Cable and Tivo don't want you deal with DVD. They want you to rent their monthly DVR, VOD, or PPV services. Netflix, Hollywood Video, and Blockbuster don't want you to rent monthly service of DVR, VOD, or PPV services. They want you to rent monthly service of DVD's. Wal-Mart, Target, Best Buy, Circuit City would rather you buy DVD than rent monthly service of DVR, VOD, PPV, or DVD rental.
Sony and Panasonic both created DVD optical recorders with hard drives for DVR recording. The boxes were fairly expensive and did not sell very well. Partially because of price and partially because they did not work as well as the box dedicated to that particular service. Which brings me to the second problem is as you add more and more services to the same box. Some part of the functionality will suffer.
Funny you use the iPod as an example. The purpose of the iPod is to have access to digital content without the direct use of optical media. ATV is exactly the same.
2. Who's got enough bandwidth to download HD content?
I have plenty of bandwidth to download HD - just not in real time. I buy my movies this morning and they're downloaded and ready to go by tonight. Not ideal, but workable.
While I agree Apple needs to figure out some way to offer higher quality content. What ever resolution they use needs to be near instantaneous. The whole advantage of digital downloading is that you can watch whatever you want right now. You don't have to wait for a DVD in the mail. You don't have to drive to a video store. You get what you want with little effort.
Quote:
Fine, Apple wants the future to be for me download stuff, but in the process it shouldn't obsolete my current media collection.
This is not unprecedented. The introduction of DVD completely obsoleted every collectors VHS and Laser Disc collection. You literally had no choice but to buy all of those movies again. In the case of ATV you don't even have to buy the movies again you have the option of converting them to digital files.
Quote:
The arguments about why Apple won't support DVR are confusing.
Because its not the purpose nor the focus of the ATV.
Quote:
If AppleTV remains a digital download/streaming box only, I don't it will ever have mass appeal. I would personally never touch it in this version. It seems like there are many people here who agree. Apple is free to keep its overly locked down device.
Sorry but optical media is the past. The idea of ATV is to move on into the future.
I agree as long as Apple keeps it tied exclusively to iTunes ATV's appeal will be limited. The iPod is not limited only to iTunes which is one of the reasons why it has done so well. Apple should allow ATV to be open to other services such as Netflix, Amazon, and whoever else would like to use it. This is all a new and untested market, we will have to see how it goes.
Sorry, digital downloads aside, Netflix offers a lot more than "acceptable quality". They offer DVD and HD for whatever my viewing pleasure dictates.
I am talking about Netflix digital downloads.
Quote:
There *has* to be a device that caters to the needs of people during this transition to *eventual* pervasive VOD. The current infrastructure does not support this fantasy in the near term.
When DVD was first introduced their was no soft transition. New DVD players were expensive when VHS players were dirt cheap. DVD media also cost more than its VHS counter part and you had no choice but to repurchase your entire collection.
When DVD was first introduced their was no soft transition. New DVD players were expensive when VHS players were dirt cheap. DVD media also cost more than its VHS counter part and you had no choice but to repurchase your entire collection.
Well, I guess we can agree to disagree. You can enjoy your VOD world and I'll continue as is. Apple will make a sale to you in this case, but definitely not me.
To those who are saying it would be too expensive to put Blu-Ray into the ATV, I was thinking it over, and doesnt the Playstation 3 cost the same as the ATV and have a Blu-ray already built into it? I know for Apple to do this would mean the 20% profit margin in the ATV (Low by Apple standards) would probably go to 0%, but its at least possible.
I wonder if Apple will make any money on the Rentals? They arent making much if any on iTunes video content in general at the moment.
To those who are saying it would be too expensive to put Blu-Ray into the ATV, I was thinking it over, and doesnt the Playstation 3 cost the same as the ATV and have a Blu-ray already built into it? I know for Apple to do this would mean the 20% profit margin in the ATV (Low by Apple standards) would probably go to 0%, but its at least possible.
I wonder if Apple will make any money on the Rentals? They arent making much if any on iTunes video content in general at the moment.
Sony loses hundreds of dollars on the PS3. They make it up in software sales. Will Apple do the same thing? Don't count on it.
I am interested to see in 2008 how the AppleTV will compete against the PS3? Isn't Sony going to introduce DVR functionality into the PS3?
Funny you use the iPod as an example. The purpose of the iPod is to have access to digital content without the direct use of optical media. ATV is exactly the same.
That may be true but the success of the iPod was because people could rip their existing cds into iTunes and not repurchase their content. IIRC, something like 70% of the content on cds is ripped material not digital downloads. Sure that percentage will change over time and eventually digital downloaded content will exceed that of ripped from optical. But without the ability to rip cds in iTunes, iPods would be a niche product at best.
Comments
i have "heard'" from someone i know that apple will be bringing elgato on stage. they are opening up the apple tv usb port for elgato usb tuners. o apple don't get bogged down with that market and let elgato deal with it.
not sure if this is for current apple tv's with a software upgrade or a new model.
That's a great solution. I have an Elgato Hybrid USB connected to my iMac G5 and it does everything:
? records cable TV vis direct cable connection into the end of the USB stick connection to your Mac
? the software allows for two advanced programmed recording from or away from you computer (web based)
? allows for conversion of downloaded programs to Apple TV, Toast, iPod
This is THE solution that we've been looking for!
Talk amongst yourselves.
Doesn't sound like you get it to me. Apple's intention for ATV is to use digital downloads as a replacement for DVD as a delivery medium.
Exactly - which is why I'm predicting that the only major change for AppleTV is upgrading its specs to HD.
Sure, I'd love a box that has a Blu-Ray drive, digital tuner, and DVR capability, but I just don't see it happening - it is far too different than Apple's current business model.
Exactly - which is why I'm predicting that the only major change for AppleTV is upgrading its specs to HD.
That may be true but two questions:
1. Where's the HD content for download?
2. Who's got enough bandwidth to download HD content?
Those are the obstacles that ATV has yet to overcome. An integrated blu ray player would be a way for the ATV to again entry into homes until the content and bandwidth 'catch up' to the market but its probably cost prohibitive to do so.
As i said earlier, I think the device is ahead of its time.
Apple is not going to get into selling TV displays.
All they have to do is add a tuner to a 30" Cinema display and there's your ATV. Better yet, make a 30" iMac pro media server edition, ie ethernet, bluray, airport etc add a iPhone remote interface app, TV guides already D/L, and away you go. Worlds best media centre, it will only be $4000
That it was expensive but fell short of being truly useful, and just added to the jumble of multimedia devices owned by most people.
That some people, including Apple executives, ignored this.
Apple missed a great opportunity to sneak a Mac computer into peoples' lounge rooms in the guise of a media centre, that then made having a PC redundant.
That may be true but two questions:
1. Where's the HD content for download?
2. Who's got enough bandwidth to download HD content?
Those are the obstacles that ATV has yet to overcome. An integrated blu ray player would be a way for the ATV to again entry into homes until the content and bandwidth 'catch up' to the market but its probably cost prohibitive to do so.
As i said earlier, I think the device is ahead of its time.
1. Chicken and egg. If Apple TV goes to HD, it would not be hard for iTunes store to make the content available in HD.
2. I have plenty of bandwidth to download HD - just not in real time. I buy my movies this morning and they're downloaded and ready to go by tonight. Not ideal, but workable.
Blu-Ray goes against the entire purpose of the Apple TV. Apple's product is for online movie purchase. If they put an optical disk on it, you don't need to purchase a download. Besides, most people already have a DVD connected to their TV. Why one more optical device? If you're going to use it solely to play Blu-Ray disks, it has no advantage over a standalone player. Furthermore, adding Blu-Ray makes the unit WAY more expensive - which makes it less practical for everyone.
...I'd really like to see a melding of the mini and the aTV...
I also think that would be ideal.
I'll be buying SOMETHING in the next couple of weeks. If the aTV doesn't include an optical drive (I'd settle for SD) AND better video format support, then I'm going to go with a MacMini (hopefully with HDMI output, but I'll use the DVI/VGA out if that's all I can get.)
Blu-Ray goes against the entire purpose of the Apple TV. Apple's product is for online movie purchase. If they put an optical disk on it, you don't need to purchase a download. Besides, most people already have a DVD connected to their TV. Why one more optical device? If you're going to use it solely to play Blu-Ray disks, it has no advantage over a standalone player. Furthermore, adding Blu-Ray makes the unit WAY more expensive - which makes it less practical for everyone.
You seem to be missing what everyone is saying. Since you realize most people already have a DVD player (I'd say probably 100% who'd consider an AppleTV), then buying an AppleTV just adds yet another box into the mix. Another box hardly simplifies the process.
Fine, Apple wants the future to be for me download stuff, but in the process it shouldn't obsolete my current media collection. Adding DVD functionality to the AppleTV at a minimum would cost Apple mere dollars and would allow everyone to continue to use their current DVD library. Sure, some small fraction on these sites are willing to rip their entire DVD collection, invest in the storage that requires, and live with the current loss of discrete surround and features (like even simple features like subtitles). If nothing else, that is one of the selling points of Blu-Ray that you can still use your DVD collection.
Again, I think the best thing for Apple to do is let it do all the things people want it to do. Why can't Apple offer different models? The basic with no optical drive, one with just DVD, and a premium model with Blu-Ray support? Maybe make DVR completely external that is bought separately. Or use a build-to-order system where DVR would be an add-on feature.
The arguments about why Apple won't support DVR are confusing. Some people argue that it eats into iTunes Store profit. Then people state Apple makes little to no more on iTunes purchases. Or it goes against Apple's business model. Isn't Apple primarily in the hardware business?
One of the biggest issues I have with digital downloads is that the iTunes or Amazon Unbox purchases aren't just competing platforms, they are competing formats as well. These formats also, unfortunately, lock the purchaser into one platform as well. Until the studios get it together and create one FORMAT to launch digital downloads, the market will continue to be an utter mess.
If AppleTV remains a digital download/streaming box only, I don't it will ever have mass appeal. I would personally never touch it in this version. It seems like there are many people here who agree. Apple is free to keep its overly locked down device.
While I don't really care much for the PVR, adding the ability to replace extra devices helps the aTV act as a trojan to actually *Get* a device that introduces digital downloads into the home. If they don't do it, someone will. Who knows, perhaps Sony will add features to the PS3 to allow this to happen
"Sounds as if you need to stick with the DVD player."
Oh, of course, because since I've bought all my past content on optical media, all my future purchases will be as well. DVD players are cheap now, like dirt cheap. What is your problem with something as simple as a DVD drive added to aTV? It would seem natural if the mini and aTV meld into a single cohesive device.
"Currently no one box does all these things."
That's a wondersful reason *not* to do it?
"Which to me says Netflix".
Sorry, digital downloads aside, Netflix offers a lot more than "acceptable quality". They offer DVD and HD for whatever my viewing pleasure dictates.
There *has* to be a device that caters to the needs of people during this transition to *eventual* pervasive VOD. The current infrastructure does not support this fantasy in the near term.
Cable boxes already come with PVRs in them, and you can order movies with them. Only thing missing is an optical player/recorder (DVD or Blu-Ray) built-in. First box to market with that will own the home video market the way iPods own the music player market now.
You think its a coincidence that there are several different devices? That no one but you has thought of bringing all of these functions together? There are a couple of problems that are the reason why there are no devices that do all of this.
For one most or all of these functions contradict each others business models. Cable and Tivo don't want you deal with DVD. They want you to rent their monthly DVR, VOD, or PPV services. Netflix, Hollywood Video, and Blockbuster don't want you to rent monthly service of DVR, VOD, or PPV services. They want you to rent monthly service of DVD's. Wal-Mart, Target, Best Buy, Circuit City would rather you buy DVD than rent monthly service of DVR, VOD, PPV, or DVD rental.
Sony and Panasonic both created DVD optical recorders with hard drives for DVR recording. The boxes were fairly expensive and did not sell very well. Partially because of price and partially because they did not work as well as the box dedicated to that particular service. Which brings me to the second problem is as you add more and more services to the same box. Some part of the functionality will suffer.
Funny you use the iPod as an example. The purpose of the iPod is to have access to digital content without the direct use of optical media. ATV is exactly the same.
1. Where's the HD content for download?
2. Who's got enough bandwidth to download HD content?
I have plenty of bandwidth to download HD - just not in real time. I buy my movies this morning and they're downloaded and ready to go by tonight. Not ideal, but workable.
While I agree Apple needs to figure out some way to offer higher quality content. What ever resolution they use needs to be near instantaneous. The whole advantage of digital downloading is that you can watch whatever you want right now. You don't have to wait for a DVD in the mail. You don't have to drive to a video store. You get what you want with little effort.
Fine, Apple wants the future to be for me download stuff, but in the process it shouldn't obsolete my current media collection.
This is not unprecedented. The introduction of DVD completely obsoleted every collectors VHS and Laser Disc collection. You literally had no choice but to buy all of those movies again. In the case of ATV you don't even have to buy the movies again you have the option of converting them to digital files.
The arguments about why Apple won't support DVR are confusing.
Because its not the purpose nor the focus of the ATV.
If AppleTV remains a digital download/streaming box only, I don't it will ever have mass appeal. I would personally never touch it in this version. It seems like there are many people here who agree. Apple is free to keep its overly locked down device.
Sorry but optical media is the past. The idea of ATV is to move on into the future.
I agree as long as Apple keeps it tied exclusively to iTunes ATV's appeal will be limited. The iPod is not limited only to iTunes which is one of the reasons why it has done so well. Apple should allow ATV to be open to other services such as Netflix, Amazon, and whoever else would like to use it. This is all a new and untested market, we will have to see how it goes.
"Currently no one box does all these things."
That's a wondersful reason *not* to do it?
There are reasons no one does it.
"Which to me says Netflix".
Sorry, digital downloads aside, Netflix offers a lot more than "acceptable quality". They offer DVD and HD for whatever my viewing pleasure dictates.
I am talking about Netflix digital downloads.
There *has* to be a device that caters to the needs of people during this transition to *eventual* pervasive VOD. The current infrastructure does not support this fantasy in the near term.
When DVD was first introduced their was no soft transition. New DVD players were expensive when VHS players were dirt cheap. DVD media also cost more than its VHS counter part and you had no choice but to repurchase your entire collection.
There are reasons no one does it.
I am talking about Netflix digital downloads.
When DVD was first introduced their was no soft transition. New DVD players were expensive when VHS players were dirt cheap. DVD media also cost more than its VHS counter part and you had no choice but to repurchase your entire collection.
Well, I guess we can agree to disagree. You can enjoy your VOD world and I'll continue as is. Apple will make a sale to you in this case, but definitely not me.
So that I can go downstairs to put a DVD in the 'puter then trudge back upstairs to watch it?
Bingo!
I wonder if Apple will make any money on the Rentals? They arent making much if any on iTunes video content in general at the moment.
To those who are saying it would be too expensive to put Blu-Ray into the ATV, I was thinking it over, and doesnt the Playstation 3 cost the same as the ATV and have a Blu-ray already built into it? I know for Apple to do this would mean the 20% profit margin in the ATV (Low by Apple standards) would probably go to 0%, but its at least possible.
I wonder if Apple will make any money on the Rentals? They arent making much if any on iTunes video content in general at the moment.
Sony loses hundreds of dollars on the PS3. They make it up in software sales. Will Apple do the same thing? Don't count on it.
I am interested to see in 2008 how the AppleTV will compete against the PS3? Isn't Sony going to introduce DVR functionality into the PS3?
Dave
Funny you use the iPod as an example. The purpose of the iPod is to have access to digital content without the direct use of optical media. ATV is exactly the same.
That may be true but the success of the iPod was because people could rip their existing cds into iTunes and not repurchase their content. IIRC, something like 70% of the content on cds is ripped material not digital downloads. Sure that percentage will change over time and eventually digital downloaded content will exceed that of ripped from optical. But without the ability to rip cds in iTunes, iPods would be a niche product at best.
Like the ATV.