O2 sweetens service plans for UK iPhone customers

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 75
    Quote:

    This makes no sense.



    OK let me clarify. Customers have no option but to pay for data with their iPhone contract. Therefore, they are going to be using it whether they wanted data or not. When someone buys a Symbian or Windows Mobile smartphone, chances are they will have a choice as to whether they take data or not. My guess is that most people won't want it, so hence Symbian and Windows Mobile phones having a smaller data share. Let's assume for instance that for every Symbian phone sold, the customer had to take out a data plan. The result would be that Symbian would take a massive slice of total data usage.



    Quote:

    EDGE is slower in raw speed to HSDPA. That is a fact. But more plays into rendering a website other than wireless bandwidth. The rendering power of the web browser software, the speed of the phones processor and graphics chips if the phone even has a specialized graphics chip. The design of the website and how easy it can be rendered by a phones modest abilities.



    Yes I understand this perfectly. The problem is the iPhone is starved of data to actually process. It's all very well and good that it can crunch through a torrent of data, but it's never going to be fast if the data is only trickling through. It's crying out for a great fat pipe of data like an HSDPA connection, and then it would browse more like it does when connected through wifi.
  • Reply 42 of 75
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:

    OK let me clarify. Customers have no option but to pay for data with their iPhone contract. Therefore, they are going to be using it whether they wanted data or not.



    The reason this makes no sense is because a consumer has hundreds of phone options and consciously chooses the iPhone. You go into it knowing the iPhone is data centric and comes with an unlimited data plan. This one of the major selling points.



    The majority of people are not buying an iPhone and saying "wells since I have no choice but to take the data plan I might as well use it." Most people are buying the iPhone and saying "I want to buy the iPhone because it has an unlimited data plan and lots of apps that make use of that data."



    Quote:

    The problem is the iPhone is starved of data to actually process. It's all very well and good that it can crunch through a torrent of data, but it's never going to be fast if the data is only trickling through.



    Starved for data is bit dramatic. But yes it will be much faster when it has 3G which will be coming later this year.



    The most important part of all of this is actual real world use. In real world use the iPhone is being used as an internet device more than any other mobile gadget on the market.
  • Reply 43 of 75
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cameronj View Post


    apple gets a cut - they get the cut from China mobile and from all the other future deals they sign which reflect the strong foot traffic generated.





    Suuure, I can totally see that:



    Jobs: Oh, and in this deal, we also get 5 bucks a month for every new subscriber you sign up that we think you may have gotten due to increased foot traffic. Even if they didn't purchase an iPhone.

    China Mobile: Bwhahahaha! You are so FUNNY, Steve. We love your American sense of humor.

    Jobs: I was serious.

    China Mobile: The door is that way. Don't grab anything off the lunch cart on your way out.







    .
  • Reply 44 of 75
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    Well we have to look at it in its full context. The Euro market is a mature market with many advanced smartphones. Many of these phones are given free with 18 month tariffs. The iPhone was sold at a premium with a higher tariff than most phones.



    Sorry Teno, but the horse has pretty much left the barn on that one. When even AI itself is routinely reporting:



    Thus far, sales of the iPhone in the UK -- like that of Germany and France -- have underperformed.



    ... against a backdrop of missed sales targets in every Euro launch country, well, yeah, I think its safe to say Euro sales are slow. Not "woulda coulda shoulda". No one cares.



    Euro sales are slow, so let's fix this. The price/plan changes are a great first step.





    Quote:

    By function the iPhone is not hampered by 3G in reality if at all only by hype. O2 reports by percentage iPhone use more data than all other smartphones combined.



    You know better than that, Teno. As you've been told, in Europe, the alternative to 3G is often crappy GPRS, aka dial-up speed, even slower than EDGE. And yes, I'd expect that iPhone users would use more data than competitors even still, because Safari is a better user experience than your typical smartphone minibrowser... but what you're leaving out is HOW MUCH MORE data iPhone users would use if they had 3G.



    Safari + dial-up speed connection = decent user experience

    Safari + high-speed connection = really good user experience.



    If Jobs says of EDGE, "You wish it was faster", well, gee, I wonder what he'd say of much-slower GPRS? \



    Teno, even you yourself have admitted that the iPhone would sell better if it had 3G, so it's kinda funny to see you backpedaling even now against the backdrop of slow Euro iPhone sales. Trying to downplay the fact that a significant number of Euro customers really want it on the iPhone at this point is silly.



    Again, let's fix this. Plan changes are a major part of it, and so is changing the feature set to what the Euros really want. I'm sure that at this point, Apple wants a 3G iPhone out sooner rather than later.





    Quote:

    I'm talking about the major carriers. There is little chance anyone is moving their iPhone to a tiny regional carrier.



    What you may be unaware of is that even most tiny regional carriers have roaming agreements with the large national carriers- meaning that their customers do have national coverage- and often better prices than the nationals too.



    There's actually quite a good chance that a few ppl will be moving their iPhones to a small regional, it just won't be a lot of ppl. ATT and T-Mobile scarfed up all the GSM regionals of any size.



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  • Reply 45 of 75
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:

    Sorry Teno, but the horse has pretty much left the barn on that one. When even AI itself is routinely reporting:Thus far, sales of the iPhone in the UK -- like that of Germany and France -- have underperformed.



    Looking beyond only sales numbers and sensationalism. While not phenomenal its cleat that everyone is satisfied with last quarters results. The tariff adjustment is more about continuing future iPhone sales.



    Quote:

    Teno, even you yourself have admitted that the iPhone would sell better if it had 3G, so it's kinda funny to see you backpedaling even now against the backdrop of slow Euro iPhone sales. Trying to downplay the fact that a significant number of Euro customers really want it on the iPhone at this point is silly.



    I agreed that some number of people will not buy an iPhone without 3G. I've also said I don't believe that number is large. There is no backpedaling. I've always said cost is the main factor limiting iPhone sales not 3G. Which is why O2 has made this adjustment.



    Quote:

    There's actually quite a good chance that a few ppl will be moving their iPhones to a small regional, it just won't be a lot of ppl. ATT and T-Mobile scarfed up all the GSM regionals of any size.



    You are just being argumentative. It'll be more than zero. But such a small number as to be mostly inconsequential.
  • Reply 46 of 75
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    Looking beyond only sales numbers and sensationalism.



    There's no real sensationalism... there were targets for the iPhone in Europe, and they were missed. The end. The problem doesn't need to be spun, it needs to be fixed. Its good to see that they're finally starting to do that.





    Quote:

    While not phenomenal its cleat that everyone is satisfied with last quarters results.



    Not the European results. It was very telling that in the earnings conference call that Cook and Oppenheimer offered absolutely no concrete sales figures for Europe.



    And of course, last quarters results are only half the story. Apple stock got absolutely hammered, in part due to the slowing US economy, but also because of weak next quarter guidance. And Europe is part of that story.





    Quote:

    I agreed that some number of people will not buy an iPhone without 3G. I've also said I don't believe that number is large.



    Denial springs eternal, eh Teno? Tsk.





    Quote:

    You are just being argumentative. It'll be more than zero. But such a small number as to be mostly inconsequential.



    Argumentative? No. Just accurate.



    Honestly, if there was a small regional in my area, I'd consider going with them. They can be a surprisingly good deal sometimes.



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  • Reply 47 of 75
    cameronjcameronj Posts: 2,357member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post


    Suuure, I can totally see that:



    Jobs: Oh, and in this deal, we also get 5 bucks a month for every new subscriber you sign up that we think you may have gotten due to increased foot traffic. Even if they didn't purchase an iPhone.

    China Mobile: Bwhahahaha! You are so FUNNY, Steve. We love your American sense of humor.

    Jobs: I was serious.

    China Mobile: The door is that way. Don't grab anything off the lunch cart on your way out.



    I'll reply as if you really don't understand... I think you were just kidding, but just in case...



    When China mobile sees that every operator that Apple signs up with has a blockbuster year the next year, and in fact those operators actually come out as SAY that it's thanks to the extra foot traffic from the iPhone, they will have a much easier time agreeing to any terms.



    So no, there's no $5 per month fee, but when Apple says oh, we want 30% of the revenue from iphone users, China mobile might just crunch the numbers on how many TOTAL new customers the iPhone will bring them (including new customers who do not use the iPhone) and figure that Apple is really only getting 15% of the revenue from the new users it BRINGS.



    See?



    You really think that a company is not going to factor in that kind of information when negotiating the iphone?
  • Reply 48 of 75
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cameronj View Post


    So no, there's no $5 per month fee, but when Apple says oh, we want 30% of the revenue from iphone users, China mobile might just crunch the numbers on how many TOTAL new customers the iPhone will bring them (including new customers who do not use the iPhone) and figure that Apple is really only getting 15% of the revenue from the new users it BRINGS.



    See?



    You really think that a company is not going to factor in that kind of information when negotiating the iphone?





    The problem is that it's incredibly hard to quantify that kind of information. Sure, part of T-Mobile Germany's subscriber increase may have been due to iPhone-generated foot traffic, even if few iPhones were actually bought. But... how do you quantify that? Is it possible that T-MG would've had a good quarter even without Apple? What percentage of T-MG's new subscribers were due to Apple? Got any hard figures on that, hmm?



    You don't. Because no one does, likely.



    I'm not saying that it can't play a role in negotiations. But I wouldn't overstate it.



    .
  • Reply 49 of 75
    cameronjcameronj Posts: 2,357member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post


    The problem is that it's incredibly hard to quantify that kind of information. Sure, part of T-Mobile Germany's subscriber increase may have been due to iPhone-generated foot traffic, even if few iPhones were actually bought. But... how do you quantify that? Is it possible that T-MG would've had a good quarter even without Apple? What percentage of T-MG's new subscribers were due to Apple? Got any hard figures on that, hmm?



    You don't. Because no one does, likely.



    I'm not saying that it can't play a role in negotiations. But I wouldn't overstate it.



    Hard to quantify? Sure. But if you don't think Apple has teams of accountants with Ivy league degrees working with ATT, Tmo, o2 and Orange to come up with numbers, you're crazy. And you can be sure they have hard numbers to show. Statistics is a science, and you can bet Apple has the numbers in hand when they go to China and all other comers.
  • Reply 50 of 75
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cameronj View Post


    Hard to quantify? Sure. But if you don't think Apple has teams of accountants with Ivy league degrees working with ATT, Tmo, o2 and Orange to come up with numbers, you're crazy. And you can be sure they have hard numbers to show. Statistics is a science, and you can bet Apple has the numbers in hand when they go to China and all other comers.





    But that's just it... they're not hard numbers. As far as the 'foot traffic effect' goes, they're what Apple thinks the numbers are, or rather, wants to think they are. It's pretty easy for the carriers Apple is negotiating with to say, "Well, we think differently. We think you're worth 'x' to us in that department."



    It helps Apple, but not as much as hard iPhone sales and activation figures.



    .
  • Reply 51 of 75
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:

    There's no real sensationalism... there were targets for the iPhone in Europe, and they were missed. The end. The problem doesn't need to be spun, it needs to be fixed. Its good to see that they're finally starting to do that.



    Those sales projections are only so important, mostly bragging rights. Orange has sold over 100,000 iPhones by now and O2 has sold over 200,000 by now. Everyone knows this and is why the financial markets don't care if they hit the exact target by the exact date.



    Quote:

    Not the European results. It was very telling that in the earnings conference call that Cook and Oppenheimer offered absolutely no concrete sales figures for Europe.



    Probably because Germany hadn't officially released its figures at that point.



    Quote:

    And of course, last quarters results are only half the story. Apple stock got absolutely hammered, in part due to the slowing US economy, but also because of weak next quarter guidance. And Europe is part of that story.



    iPhone sales at this point are an extremely small part of that.





    Quote:

    Denial springs eternal, eh Teno? Tsk



    No, just you taking what I've said out of context as you do to confuse the issue when you don't have solid argument.
  • Reply 52 of 75
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:

    When China mobile sees that every operator that Apple signs up with has a blockbuster year the next year, and in fact those operators actually come out as SAY that it's thanks to the extra foot traffic from the iPhone, they will have a much easier time agreeing to any terms.



    I think what would be more valuable to a Chinese carrier is the fact that their is such demand for unofficial iPhones in China. Chinese consumers are willing to use the iPhone inspite of the fact that they have to hack the Chinese language on to it.
  • Reply 53 of 75
    cameronjcameronj Posts: 2,357member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post


    It helps Apple, but not as much as hard iPhone sales and activation figures.

    .



    Good, then we agree.
  • Reply 54 of 75
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mrochester View Post


    0



    Yeah it's a nice surprise for those of you who were already happy with the allowance you received. But O2 aren't doing this to please their existing customers, they are doing this to attract new customers. Kudos for them for finally getting the message!



    Whilst I agree in general, if they weren't worried about their excisting customers, then they wouldn't have applied it to their existing customers. We signed a deal that said 200 minutes and 200 texts, we wouldn't have a leg to stand on to demand the new deal without cancelling our old contract and buying into a new one. I give O2 a lot of credit for thinking about the older customers on this one.
  • Reply 55 of 75
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    Those sales projections are only so important, mostly bragging rights. Orange has sold over 100,000 iPhones by now and O2 has sold over 200,000 by now. Everyone knows this and is why the financial markets don't care if they hit the exact target by the exact date.



    So, if Apple misses its stated 10 million goal, that 'won't really matter' either? C'mon Teno, get real. It's much more than bragging rights... a company doesn't set goals or make projections or give guidance just for s***s and grins. And when it misses those goals, that's a sign to investors and potential investors that there is a problem there. The stock usually gets punished accordingly. It is quite a big deal, actually.





    Quote:

    Probably because Germany hadn't officially released its figures at that point.



    Please. Even you probably don't believe that. If there was a positive story on Euro sales to tell (beyond the standard fallback: "We're very happy..." ) Cook and Oppenheimer would have been remiss not to tell it... with figures.





    Quote:

    iPhone sales at this point are an extremely small part of that.



    Investors don't see it that way. The iPhone is one of Apple's three major businesses: iPod, iPhone, and Mac. And much of the growth in the coming year was supposed to come from the iPhone business.





    Quote:

    No, just you taking what I've said out of context as you do to confuse the issue when you don't have solid argument.



    More like, regarding 3G and the iPhone feature set, I'm just shrugging and laughing as you consign yourself to membership in the Flat Earth Society. It isn't like you haven't heard from of our Euro friends again and again and again about the importance of 3G and MMS to that market, not to mention the many news articles on the subject.



    The new plans will help a lot, and I've advocated Apple address their pricing issues over there, but that's not the whole problem in Europe. Having the product rely on GPRS for its Internet experience in many cases and in many places is a joke, and a pretty bad one. As is the lack of MMS.



    If you can't or won't understand that, my condolences. I think Apple finally gets it, though, and is literally counting the days until they get a 3G iPhone out there. Preferably 16 GB, natch.



    .
  • Reply 56 of 75
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cameronj View Post


    Good, then we agree.





    Yeah, pretty much.



    I'd love to be a fly on the wall during those conversations, though. The fencing between Apple's and the carrier's experts must be fascinating.



    .
  • Reply 57 of 75
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:

    So, if Apple misses its stated 10 million goal, that 'won't really matter' either? C'mon Teno, get real. It's much more than bragging rights...



    I'm more speaking specifically of O2 and Orange sales projections. Not all sales projections ever. Selling tens of thousands over weeks is entirely different from tens of millions over a year.



    Quote:

    Please. Even you probably don't believe that. If there was a positive story on Euro sales to tell (beyond the standard fallback: "We're very happy..." ) Cook and Oppenheimer would have been remiss not to tell it... with figures.



    Well they said they are happy. Healthy profits from the past quarter. What evidence do you have to contradict that?



    Quote:

    It isn't like you haven't heard from of our Euro friends again and again and again about the importance of 3G and MMS to that market, not to mention the many news articles on the subject.



    Yes they talk about 3G. But in reality only a small percentage even use data and make much use of 3G.



    I cannot find it now. But Nokia conducted a survey of what features phone used most. At the top of the list was e-mail, MMS wasn't even on the list.
  • Reply 58 of 75
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    I'm more speaking specifically of O2 and Orange sales projections. Not all sales projections ever. Selling tens of thousands over weeks is entirely different from tens of millions over a year.



    Unfortunately, those matter too, especially considering that most agree that they were conservative, lowball goals. And they missed them even still. \





    Quote:

    Well they said they are happy. Healthy profits from the past quarter.



    LOL, I told you "we're happy" is standard boilerplate, and you go and go quote it anyway. Too funny. C'mon Teno, you're playing dumb here.



    And, as I already told you, last quarter's profits are only half the story... the other half is future growth and future guidance. Investors didn't seem too happy with the Apple story in those departments, which is much of why the stock is down roughly 35 percent from a month ago. Argh.





    Quote:

    Yes they talk about 3G. But in reality only a small percentage even use data and make much use of 3G.



    I cannot find it now. But Nokia conducted a survey of what features phone used most. At the top of the list was e-mail, MMS wasn't even on the list.



    Teno, as a stockholder, all I can say is, I am very happy that you aren't in charge of Apple product decisions. \ You still can't seem to get that Europe is a very different market from the US. Asia will be more different still. A product that does well in the US doesn't necessarily fly elsewhere.



    But even beyond that, you seem ignorant of the fundamental nature of the iPhone. Data use on phones has been low in general because the user experience has been bad previously. The iPhone changes that... better data/internet user experience equals you want to use data and browse the 'net on the iPhone.



    And if you're gonna do that, are you gonna want to do it at 3G (broadband) speed, or GPRS (dialup) speed?



    Yeah... that's what I thought.





    .
  • Reply 59 of 75
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:

    Unfortunately, those matter too, especially considering that most agree that they were conservative, lowball goals. And they missed them even still.



    The market didn't punish them for it. So its a nonissue.



    Quote:

    And, as I already told you, last quarter's profits are only half the story... the other half is future growth and future guidance. Investors didn't seem too happy with the Apple story in those departments, which is much of why the stock is down roughly 35 percent from a month ago. Argh.



    Apple is always conservative about its future guidance, which drives down the stock price. This time was more dramatic than the past.



    Quote:

    You still can't seem to get that Europe is a very different market from the US. Asia will be more different still. A product that does well in the US doesn't necessarily fly elsewhere.



    Well I not only see what they say. I look at what they do. They talk about 3G a lot more than they use it.



    Quote:

    But even beyond that, you seem ignorant of the fundamental nature of the iPhone.



    Really? Even though I've owned one since they first went on sale.



    Quote:

    Data use on phones has been low in general because the user experience has been bad previously. The iPhone changes that... better data/internet user experience equals you want to use data and browse the 'net on the iPhone.



    Data use has been low on phones with 3G because the user experience has been bad. Internet use on the iPhone without 3G is nearly at the same rate as Linux on the desktop.



    What is the common factor that makes the difference? Its not 3G.



    What becomes the important factor that empowers people to use data. Its not 3G.



    3G will help make the experience better.
  • Reply 60 of 75
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    The market didn't punish them for it. So its a nonissue.



    The stock's down 35 percent in a month. Over 40 billion dollars of shareholder value has been wiped out. So... WTH are you talking about? The economy is some of it, but Apple's growth story (or lack of) is the rest.





    Quote:

    Apple is always conservative about its future guidance, which drives down the stock price. This time was more dramatic than the past.



    It was more dramatic because investors actually believed Apple's low guidance this time. Duh. And the iPhone's prospects were part of that.





    Quote:

    Well I not only see what they say. I look at what they do. They talk about 3G a lot more than they use it.



    It's almost like you don't read my posts before you respond. What part of "the iPhone is a breakthrough Internet device that greatly improves user experience and drives data/Internet usage" did you not get?





    Quote:

    Really? Even though I've owned one since they first went on sale.



    It's sad, but true.





    Quote:

    Data use has been low on phones with 3G because the user experience has been bad.



    Do you honestly believe that data usage has been low on those phones because of 3G? That's hilarious.





    Quote:

    Internet use on the iPhone without 3G is nearly at the same rate as Linux on the desktop.



    What is the common factor that makes the difference? Its not 3G.



    Linux? Apple and oranges? WTF? That makes no sense.





    Quote:

    What becomes the important factor that empowers people to use data. Its not 3G.



    It's Safari and ease-of-use... BUT... what is the point of having a cutting-edge mobile browser and world-class ease of use, if you then s*** all over that user experience by having your user base surf the 'net on an outdated, super-slow connection?



    GPRS is 25 to 35 kbps, real-world. Is it 1995 again? Should I go fetch my old 28.8 modem out of the closet? What's not to get here?





    Quote:

    3G will help make the experience better.



    In the case of Europe, which often has GPRS and not EDGE, make that a lot better.



    And users over there, being rather more sophisticated regarding cellphones than your average US user, can see that... and they vote with their euros, pounds, etc. And have been... against the iPhone in too many cases.



    Honestly Teno, what's your point? That Apple can stick Safari on a pair of styrofoam cups with a string running between them, and that alone will make the user experience delightful? Egads.



    .
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