We've discussed CPU upgrades and the possible addition of multi-touch pads to refreshed MBPs. However, one thing no one has mentioned is the possibility the GPU may be upgraded from the NVidia 8M 8600 series to the 8M 8800 series.
My guess is the refreshed MBPs will continue to use the existing 8600 series and later updated to the 8M 8800 series along with the switch from the Santa Rosa (65nm) chipset to the Montevina (aka Centrino2, 45nm) chipset.
So, future buyers and upgraders of MBPs, it appears that 2008 will probably have two upgrades to the series.
First will be a mild refresh to include Intel 'Penryn' processors and multi-touch pad. Then a more comprehensive upgrade to possibly include an updated chassis (MacBook Air aesthetics?), Penryn processors, multi-touch pad and possibly higher density SSD storage (e.g. 128GB+).
It'll be interesting what the advantages/disadvantages are going to be between the MBP 2008 V1 vs the MBP 2008-2009 V2. Indeed, will Apple make it more CPU or battery power biased?
Again, it's all speculation, but seems to be logical based on other manufacturers products and road maps.
I notice that they're not revealing the clock frequency (or price) of the mobile quad-core at the top of that list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjteix
Yes, that's the only speed that has not been leaked (yet). Given the amount of cache, my guess is that it could be a 2.53GHz part (like two P9500 on one package). Price is supposed to be $999.
Montevina is the real 2008 update:
faster clock
faster FSB
faster/more efficient DDR3 RAM
better power management
better integrated graphics
more models to accomodate more designs: high-end notebooks, AIO, standard notebooks, smaller notebooks, less expensive notebooks, smaller desktops...
That all looks like a good reason to wait at least until Summer. But I'm really more interested in the Quad Core model than any of the Dual Core ones. I guess that means I should wait about another 12 months, which will only be 6 months after Montevina debuts to get what I really want. I'm still poking on a four and a half year old (five years this Fall) September '03 1.25GHz G4 original 15" Aluminum PB. But I'm not going mobile much either so perhaps I can wait that much longer. Anyone like me think they want or need the Quad Core Mobile MBP a lot more than they want or need a Dual Core?
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterspan
I myself am waiting for Nehalem (chips after Penryn - new architecture replaces "Core"). Penryn looks like a farily good upgrade and all, but if you only upgrade every 3 years or so, and are planning on buying an expensive high-end machine, I think it'll definitely be worth the wait for Nehalem. These chips should be out in Q4 2008 for desktop, and Q1 2009 for laptop.
Here's a preliminary list of benefits of Nehalem over Penryn/Core 2. Of course some of these may change before release, but a lot more info has become available in the last few months:
- 45nm node like Penryn
- Will use DDR3 RAM
- Uses new Intel QuickPath point-to-point connection with on-chip memory controller, replacing the old front side bus technology. Similar to AMD's HyperTransport.
- Processors will have 2 'virtual' threads per core, similar to Hyperthreading from the Pentium 4 days.
- Multi-core chips will all be 'native' multi-core, meaning all cores will be on the SAME die, not different dies packaged together.
- Laptops will now have mainstream versions of (native) quad-core processors as well as desktops/servers.
- 2P server/workstation chips (Mac Pro) will now use standard DDR3 instead of high priced fully-buffered memory (FB-DIMMs)
- The high-end MP (4+ socket) server chips will be native eight-core "octo-core" processors, capable of 16 threads.
- 10-25% increase in single threaded performance compared to Penryn.
- 20%-100% increase in multi-threaded performance compared to Penryn.
- 30% less power usage than Penryn.
Also, some sources have reported at least some Nehalem chips will have a "turbo" mode which will allow the chip to raise it's clock speed (and go over its rated TDP). Anyone remember the
386/486 "turbo" mode button on old PCs ?? Oh, the nastalgia...
Thank you for this very informative post Winterspan. Until now I had not seen this list of Nehalem features anywhere.
When I look at that list of Nehalem improvements, and I realize it that won't be until around this time next year or even Spring 2009 before the Nehalem Quad Mobile MBP becomes a reality, something I've known for quite a while already, I think of not pulling the trigger on the Santa Rosa Penryn - was hoping for a 2.8GHz option - like I had planned to do as soon as that next refresh arrived. Now that year doesn't seem so far off - especially if the Montevina Penryn arrives this Summer at WWDC like it looks like it might.
Are any others here conflicted about this like me? I'm up to 8 cores now in the Mac Pro and I don't want to drop back down to less than 4 because I do use a lot of cores most of the time and I find all the Dual Core Macs to be quite confining. On the other hand, perhaps a pair of 2.8 GHz Penryn Santa Rosa cores with 4GB of ram wouldn't be so bad. But when I look at even the Montevina platform improvements that makes me want to wait 'til Summer and then it will be only 6 months 'til the Nehalem Quad Mobile MBP. So I'm feeling very conflicted. I guess the only logic for buying now would be to roll each model over as soon as the next update hits the market. But that's a lot of hassle I'm not sure I want to deal with.
On the other hand, perhaps a pair of 2.8 GHz Penryn Santa Rosa cores with 4GB of ram wouldn't be so bad. But when I look at even the Montevina platform improvements that makes me want to wait 'til Summer and then it will be only 6 months 'til the Nehalem Quad Mobile MBP. So I'm feeling very conflicted. I guess the only logic for buying now would be to roll each model over as soon as the next update hits the market. But that's a lot of hassle I'm not sure I want to deal with.
'Tis the computer shopper's dilemma: there is always going to be something faster in six months.
But when I look at even the Montevina platform improvements that makes me want to wait 'til Summer and then it will be only 6 months 'til the Nehalem Quad Mobile MBP. So I'm feeling very conflicted. I guess the only logic for buying now would be to roll each model over as soon as the next update hits the market. But that's a lot of hassle I'm not sure I want to deal with.
winterspan's post is surely interesting, but the timing he thinks will happen for Nehalem is wrong.
Q4 2008, Nehalem Xeons (for your Mac Pro) and HIGH-END desktop chips (think a nehalem version of skulltrail)
Q1 2009, regular desktop chips (DC and QC) not used by Apple (yet)
Q2 2009, mobile chips (DC and QC)
It is too soon to get a more detailled planning, but mobile nehalems will be launched almost a year after Montevina, not 6 months.
In the other hand, the first mobile quad will cost in the $999 range, and will be 45W, I don't believe Apple will put one in a notebook (iMac, 24" and maybe 20"). The nehalem versions will bring the cost down around $500 for the slower models and lower the temperature envelop, I believe that's when we will see quad-cores in Apple notebooks (late Q2 2009 at the earliest, I can imagine it being unveilled at the 2009 WWDC in june).
When I look at that list of Nehalem improvements, and I realize it that won't be until around this time next year or even Spring 2009 before the Nehalem Quad Mobile MBP becomes a reality, something I've known for quite a while already, I think of not pulling the trigger on the Santa Rosa Penryn - was hoping for a 2.8GHz option - like I had planned to do as soon as that next refresh arrived. Now that year doesn't seem so far off - especially if the Montevina Penryn arrives this Summer at WWDC like it looks like it might.
Are any others here conflicted about this like me? I'm up to 8 cores now in the Mac Pro and I don't want to drop back down to less than 4 because I do use a lot of cores most of the time and I find all the Dual Core Macs to be quite confining. On the other hand, perhaps a pair of 2.8 GHz Penryn Santa Rosa cores with 4GB of ram wouldn't be so bad. But when I look at even the Montevina platform improvements that makes me want to wait 'til Summer and then it will be only 6 months 'til the Nehalem Quad Mobile MBP. So I'm feeling very conflicted. I guess the only logic for buying now would be to roll each model over as soon as the next update hits the market. But that's a lot of hassle I'm not sure I want to deal with.
What I've read in several sites, including ARs, Anandtech, and others, we might see Nehalem sometime the 3rd quarter, and the latest, the 4th quarter, this year. The mobile versions would be moved out afterwards.
Intel has been pushing its chips out early, though there's no way to know if that will happen here as well. I'm chancing it will be early enough for Apple to get a new Mac Pro out this year, sooner rather than later. I passed on the 8 core one now because of that.
Hopefully, it will be a big machine upgrade with Nehalem, not just a processor bump.
This is a very important upgrade. I'm hoping for E-SATA, a full Express 2 mobo, fast DDR-3 rather than DDR2 FB-DIMMS, as the chipset for the Nehalem supports that, and finally, a new case design. Not that I dislike the old one, but it's been some time, and a new one is due. Nehalem figures to be a good time for that to happen. This would also allow for the upgrade to the chips succeeding the Nehalen, as the Penyrn can be put into the older machines now.
Buy a Penyrn machine, and you are stuck with it.
I always dislike buying the last of a design generation, either for what's inside, or outside. The two should coincide.
just wait till march as on Cebit all manufacturers will present their lastest products. Intel as well will present its updated roadmap so we can know when next cpu versions will be released.
Hopefully, it will be a big machine upgrade with Nehalem, not just a processor bump.
This is a very important upgrade. I'm hoping for E-SATA, a full Express 2 mobo, fast DDR-3 rather than DDR2 FB-DIMMS, as the chipset for the Nehalem supports that, and finally, a new case design. Not that I dislike the old one, but it's been some time, and a new one is due. Nehalem figures to be a good time for that to happen. This would also allow for the upgrade to the chips succeeding the Nehalen, as the Penyrn can be put into the older machines now.
Buy a Penyrn machine, and you are stuck with it.
I always dislike buying the last of a design generation, either for what's inside, or outside. The two should coincide.
My thoughts exactly. Though there is no shame in buying any of the current Macs, especially if you belong to the PPC generation, the current processors can be clocked much higher air cooled. AMD is still on the canvas, being dragged to its corner... Intel don't have as much pressure to 'up the ante'. Same with GPUs, the PC industry has been in a lull in that regard as well and the new '9800' whatever stuff is just repacked old stuff that's already been out for over a year. No shame, it's powerful but...it's old.
I'd like to buy Nehalem, I think, new tech', new cpu, architecture/system, new skin, new Monitors (why are we waiting, Apple?) I think that's worth waiting for. A true bump. We might get 8 cores on one cpu and Apple may even 'dual' that. Either way. It's shaping up to be an impressive date.
I almost pulled the trigger on a 2.8 octo with GT. But with true Next gen GPU stuff coming out in June(?) then I can't see the point right now. Really. An 8 core cpu with the, admittedly impressive, but 'mid range' GT? I want a GPU that can crush 2500x1600 resolutions and I think the true next gen Nividia and ATI put out may at last be able to do that.
Perenially waiter? I know. But I know what my dream system is. And arms and legs don't grow on trees.
But with true Next gen GPU stuff coming out in June(?) then I can't see the point right now. Really. An 8 core cpu with the, admittedly impressive, but 'mid range' GT? I want a GPU that can crush 2500x1600 resolutions and I think the true next gen Nividia and ATI put out may at last be able to do that.
Do you honestly think Apple will update the GPU's then? They shipped the x1900xt with the Mac Pro for something like 18 months.
Comments
http://www.nvidia.com/object/geforce_8800m.html
My guess is the refreshed MBPs will continue to use the existing 8600 series and later updated to the 8M 8800 series along with the switch from the Santa Rosa (65nm) chipset to the Montevina (aka Centrino2, 45nm) chipset.
So, future buyers and upgraders of MBPs, it appears that 2008 will probably have two upgrades to the series.
First will be a mild refresh to include Intel 'Penryn' processors and multi-touch pad. Then a more comprehensive upgrade to possibly include an updated chassis (MacBook Air aesthetics?), Penryn processors, multi-touch pad and possibly higher density SSD storage (e.g. 128GB+).
It'll be interesting what the advantages/disadvantages are going to be between the MBP 2008 V1 vs the MBP 2008-2009 V2. Indeed, will Apple make it more CPU or battery power biased?
Again, it's all speculation, but seems to be logical based on other manufacturers products and road maps.
Did I miss anything?
YipYipYipee
3.4Ghz Wolfdale is available. I don't see any 3GHz barrier...
The barrier isn't a physical one, it's a logical one.
I notice that they're not revealing the clock frequency (or price) of the mobile quad-core at the top of that list.
Yes, that's the only speed that has not been leaked (yet). Given the amount of cache, my guess is that it could be a 2.53GHz part (like two P9500 on one package). Price is supposed to be $999.
Montevina is the real 2008 update:
That all looks like a good reason to wait at least until Summer. But I'm really more interested in the Quad Core model than any of the Dual Core ones. I guess that means I should wait about another 12 months, which will only be 6 months after Montevina debuts to get what I really want. I'm still poking on a four and a half year old (five years this Fall) September '03 1.25GHz G4 original 15" Aluminum PB. But I'm not going mobile much either so perhaps I can wait that much longer. Anyone like me think they want or need the Quad Core Mobile MBP a lot more than they want or need a Dual Core?
I myself am waiting for Nehalem (chips after Penryn - new architecture replaces "Core"). Penryn looks like a farily good upgrade and all, but if you only upgrade every 3 years or so, and are planning on buying an expensive high-end machine, I think it'll definitely be worth the wait for Nehalem. These chips should be out in Q4 2008 for desktop, and Q1 2009 for laptop.
Here's a preliminary list of benefits of Nehalem over Penryn/Core 2. Of course some of these may change before release, but a lot more info has become available in the last few months:
- 45nm node like Penryn
- Will use DDR3 RAM
- Uses new Intel QuickPath point-to-point connection with on-chip memory controller, replacing the old front side bus technology. Similar to AMD's HyperTransport.
- Processors will have 2 'virtual' threads per core, similar to Hyperthreading from the Pentium 4 days.
- Multi-core chips will all be 'native' multi-core, meaning all cores will be on the SAME die, not different dies packaged together.
- Laptops will now have mainstream versions of (native) quad-core processors as well as desktops/servers.
- 2P server/workstation chips (Mac Pro) will now use standard DDR3 instead of high priced fully-buffered memory (FB-DIMMs)
- The high-end MP (4+ socket) server chips will be native eight-core "octo-core" processors, capable of 16 threads.
- 10-25% increase in single threaded performance compared to Penryn.
- 20%-100% increase in multi-threaded performance compared to Penryn.
- 30% less power usage than Penryn.
Also, some sources have reported at least some Nehalem chips will have a "turbo" mode which will allow the chip to raise it's clock speed (and go over its rated TDP). Anyone remember the
386/486 "turbo" mode button on old PCs ?? Oh, the nastalgia...
Thank you for this very informative post Winterspan. Until now I had not seen this list of Nehalem features anywhere.
When I look at that list of Nehalem improvements, and I realize it that won't be until around this time next year or even Spring 2009 before the Nehalem Quad Mobile MBP becomes a reality, something I've known for quite a while already, I think of not pulling the trigger on the Santa Rosa Penryn - was hoping for a 2.8GHz option - like I had planned to do as soon as that next refresh arrived. Now that year doesn't seem so far off - especially if the Montevina Penryn arrives this Summer at WWDC like it looks like it might.
Are any others here conflicted about this like me? I'm up to 8 cores now in the Mac Pro and I don't want to drop back down to less than 4 because I do use a lot of cores most of the time and I find all the Dual Core Macs to be quite confining. On the other hand, perhaps a pair of 2.8 GHz Penryn Santa Rosa cores with 4GB of ram wouldn't be so bad. But when I look at even the Montevina platform improvements that makes me want to wait 'til Summer and then it will be only 6 months 'til the Nehalem Quad Mobile MBP. So I'm feeling very conflicted. I guess the only logic for buying now would be to roll each model over as soon as the next update hits the market. But that's a lot of hassle I'm not sure I want to deal with.
On the other hand, perhaps a pair of 2.8 GHz Penryn Santa Rosa cores with 4GB of ram wouldn't be so bad. But when I look at even the Montevina platform improvements that makes me want to wait 'til Summer and then it will be only 6 months 'til the Nehalem Quad Mobile MBP. So I'm feeling very conflicted. I guess the only logic for buying now would be to roll each model over as soon as the next update hits the market. But that's a lot of hassle I'm not sure I want to deal with.
'Tis the computer shopper's dilemma: there is always going to be something faster in six months.
But when I look at even the Montevina platform improvements that makes me want to wait 'til Summer and then it will be only 6 months 'til the Nehalem Quad Mobile MBP. So I'm feeling very conflicted. I guess the only logic for buying now would be to roll each model over as soon as the next update hits the market. But that's a lot of hassle I'm not sure I want to deal with.
winterspan's post is surely interesting, but the timing he thinks will happen for Nehalem is wrong.
Q4 2008, Nehalem Xeons (for your Mac Pro) and HIGH-END desktop chips (think a nehalem version of skulltrail)
Q1 2009, regular desktop chips (DC and QC) not used by Apple (yet)
Q2 2009, mobile chips (DC and QC)
It is too soon to get a more detailled planning, but mobile nehalems will be launched almost a year after Montevina, not 6 months.
In the other hand, the first mobile quad will cost in the $999 range, and will be 45W, I don't believe Apple will put one in a notebook (iMac, 24" and maybe 20"). The nehalem versions will bring the cost down around $500 for the slower models and lower the temperature envelop, I believe that's when we will see quad-cores in Apple notebooks (late Q2 2009 at the earliest, I can imagine it being unveilled at the 2009 WWDC in june).
When I look at that list of Nehalem improvements, and I realize it that won't be until around this time next year or even Spring 2009 before the Nehalem Quad Mobile MBP becomes a reality, something I've known for quite a while already, I think of not pulling the trigger on the Santa Rosa Penryn - was hoping for a 2.8GHz option - like I had planned to do as soon as that next refresh arrived. Now that year doesn't seem so far off - especially if the Montevina Penryn arrives this Summer at WWDC like it looks like it might.
Are any others here conflicted about this like me? I'm up to 8 cores now in the Mac Pro and I don't want to drop back down to less than 4 because I do use a lot of cores most of the time and I find all the Dual Core Macs to be quite confining. On the other hand, perhaps a pair of 2.8 GHz Penryn Santa Rosa cores with 4GB of ram wouldn't be so bad. But when I look at even the Montevina platform improvements that makes me want to wait 'til Summer and then it will be only 6 months 'til the Nehalem Quad Mobile MBP. So I'm feeling very conflicted. I guess the only logic for buying now would be to roll each model over as soon as the next update hits the market. But that's a lot of hassle I'm not sure I want to deal with.
What I've read in several sites, including ARs, Anandtech, and others, we might see Nehalem sometime the 3rd quarter, and the latest, the 4th quarter, this year. The mobile versions would be moved out afterwards.
Intel has been pushing its chips out early, though there's no way to know if that will happen here as well. I'm chancing it will be early enough for Apple to get a new Mac Pro out this year, sooner rather than later. I passed on the 8 core one now because of that.
Hopefully, it will be a big machine upgrade with Nehalem, not just a processor bump.
This is a very important upgrade. I'm hoping for E-SATA, a full Express 2 mobo, fast DDR-3 rather than DDR2 FB-DIMMS, as the chipset for the Nehalem supports that, and finally, a new case design. Not that I dislike the old one, but it's been some time, and a new one is due. Nehalem figures to be a good time for that to happen. This would also allow for the upgrade to the chips succeeding the Nehalen, as the Penyrn can be put into the older machines now.
Buy a Penyrn machine, and you are stuck with it.
I always dislike buying the last of a design generation, either for what's inside, or outside. The two should coincide.
Hopefully, it will be a big machine upgrade with Nehalem, not just a processor bump.
This is a very important upgrade. I'm hoping for E-SATA, a full Express 2 mobo, fast DDR-3 rather than DDR2 FB-DIMMS, as the chipset for the Nehalem supports that, and finally, a new case design. Not that I dislike the old one, but it's been some time, and a new one is due. Nehalem figures to be a good time for that to happen. This would also allow for the upgrade to the chips succeeding the Nehalen, as the Penyrn can be put into the older machines now.
Buy a Penyrn machine, and you are stuck with it.
I always dislike buying the last of a design generation, either for what's inside, or outside. The two should coincide.
My thoughts exactly. Though there is no shame in buying any of the current Macs, especially if you belong to the PPC generation, the current processors can be clocked much higher air cooled. AMD is still on the canvas, being dragged to its corner... Intel don't have as much pressure to 'up the ante'. Same with GPUs, the PC industry has been in a lull in that regard as well and the new '9800' whatever stuff is just repacked old stuff that's already been out for over a year. No shame, it's powerful but...it's old.
I'd like to buy Nehalem, I think, new tech', new cpu, architecture/system, new skin, new Monitors (why are we waiting, Apple?) I think that's worth waiting for. A true bump. We might get 8 cores on one cpu and Apple may even 'dual' that. Either way. It's shaping up to be an impressive date.
I almost pulled the trigger on a 2.8 octo with GT. But with true Next gen GPU stuff coming out in June(?) then I can't see the point right now. Really. An 8 core cpu with the, admittedly impressive, but 'mid range' GT? I want a GPU that can crush 2500x1600 resolutions and I think the true next gen Nividia and ATI put out may at last be able to do that.
Perenially waiter? I know. But I know what my dream system is. And arms and legs don't grow on trees.
Lemon Bon Bon.
But with true Next gen GPU stuff coming out in June(?) then I can't see the point right now. Really. An 8 core cpu with the, admittedly impressive, but 'mid range' GT? I want a GPU that can crush 2500x1600 resolutions and I think the true next gen Nividia and ATI put out may at last be able to do that.
Do you honestly think Apple will update the GPU's then? They shipped the x1900xt with the Mac Pro for something like 18 months.