Today, I'm one of those whiners that we all hate so much... here goes...
This day made me very sad because it means I will soon have to spend a lot of money on a mac notebook that I don't really want.
Well, won't go too hard on you since I've expressed my disappointment at lack of touchpad on Macbook earlier in this thread.
But I doubt that you "have to spend" *any* money.
Are you completely without a computer at the moment? The fact that you're posting tells me the answer to that is 'no'.
The consensus seems to be that the device you want more will probably be out in 4-6 months. If you just can't wait, then I guess Apple does have you by the short hairs. But I truly doubt that that's the case.
From what I've read, it sounds like there are still DRM issues to be worked out for movie playback. It's working in some cases on the PC side, but there are many PC owners with bluray drives who are unable to watch movies. I can't imagine apple releasing before those problems are worked out.
I believe that's correct. HD playback requires (by license) that the video path is "secure" (ie, it can't be captured/recorded). Microsoft went draconian and put DRM throughout Vista to the point that the path from RAM to the video card can be locked down. Hopefully, Apple won't [need] to go so far because that could mean changes to the OS.
The HDMI connection on the AppleTV became HDCP (I think that's the right acronym) compliant with the Take 2.0 upgrade. Or at least it seems to get activated with rentals. I don't think you can implement HDCP on DVI (could be wrong), and that is what is needed for the player to handshake with the display/TV in order to establish a secure connection. So at a minimum, I think they'd have to start shipping computers with HDMI connections if you wanted to watch blu-ray on an external monitor. Who knows, the license to play blu-ray video may require that they implement HDCP even on the connection between the video card and the built-in display on laptops!
Yes! The problem is we have been waiting for a long, long time. I remember when everyone was expecting a major redesign for the Intel transition. It never came. The excuse was that Apple needed to get Intel based models out right away and didn't have them time. So everyone thought the next revision would bring changes. Never happened. Then the next revision. Nope. Over and over again. The lower-end MacBook has features the higher-end MacBook Pros lack. How long will this stand? With reports of slowing iPod growth and the Mac as the only remaining growth driver can Apple really afford to be complacent? I don't think so.
Apple hasn't become complacent, they have become to big for their own good. Trying to enter into so many markets and gaining market share while trying to maintain that consumer to producer image, just isn't working anymore. Look at the demands we are placing on them and I am guilty of the same, while at the same time they're trying to please coffee sipping yuppies with MacBook Air and Starbucks stores on iPhone. I read that analysis article, and I hope it reminds apple it was the actual Mac community (not iPod or iPhone) that kept them afloat while they were struggling. It might be the shot in the arm they need and then we might get all these frills.
Although I'm still left wondering a little with the case design: keyboard and mag latch I can understand, but what would you do with the case? Thinner? It's a pro machine, it's not gonna get much thinner. A different material? What dissipates heat better than aluminum? Hells yeah the bottom of those things get hot because it's emitting heat instead of keeping it internally. The curved design of the MBA? I wouldn't want that as I'm sure many other people wouldn't either. They put an iSight in the screen bezel for god sakes. That thing is tiny and does an amazing job. I'm curious and very open as to hear what you and other want. Maybe you'd convince me, but all I hear right now is "Give me case redesign." "Well what do you want?" "I don't know...give me case redesign."
I'm a bit confused. I believe the Penryn has a front side bus at 800mHz. Why are they shipping with 667mHz pc5300 ram? Wouldn't they benefit from pc6400 800mHz RAM?
You're confused because that's not how the frontside bus works.
FSB is quad data rate, so 800MHz is actually 4*200MHz
RAM is double data rate, 667MHz is actually 2*333MHz
333MHz is faster than 200MHz, so memory is faster than the FSB. The RAM, in other words, will be waiting for the processor occasionally.
As we each are entitled to our opinion, i'm rather disappointed with this.. I mean, yahh, I'm glad Apple did this update but I just wish it was more comparable to PC laptops. I just saw a nice laptop for $500 that was actually really nice with a 15.4 screen on it with a big hard drive, lots of ram and DVD writer on it. Why can't Apple get their prices lower and why do they not offer a SuperDrive as standard equipment now. The PC laptops offer it as standard in a $500 laptop. Anyway, I just wanted to rant, any update is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. I just want lower prices from Apple to stay competitive.
i've been waiting for the damn update for around 6 months now only to get this crappy update that can't even compete with a top of the line sony laptop that costs less..
whats worse, in the UK, the MacBook Pro 15 inch 2.5GHz costs "1,599.00 GBP" roughly
$3,155 USD compared to $2,499.00 USD in the states. thats a $656 price difference. and thats NOT whats bloody annoying .. the damn thing comes with LOWER specs than the US version!!! an unupgradable "NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT graphics with 256MB SDRAM".
this better be a mistake..
P.S. sorry guys, i was really angry when i started writing this. am still angry but not as much. i guess i'll order my laptop from the states. alot cheaper with better specs. only problem is i'll have to pay for a new power adapter *apples ones are expensive* and the keyboard has an american layout so i'll have to get used to that. *sigh*
ohh, and i don't really hate apple. atleast not alot. \
Specifications and usability are two very different things. For one thing, Sony can't run OS X.
I just checked the UK Apple site and the specs are the same as the US one (i.e. 256MB for the 2.4GHz configuration and 512MB for the 2.5 or 2.6GHz configuration).
Now, as to the U.S. Dollar vs Pound Sterling issue. That's been going on for years. And don't get me started on the cost of cars in the U.K. vs the Continent.
Also, don't forget the U.S. price does not include local sales tax. So, that sort of mitigates the price difference... kind of... erm, how's the Premiership going?
While HD may be pointless, those buying bluray disks to watch on their giant screen at home still want to be able to watch them on the computer as well (and not have to buy movies twice).
Thanks for your feedback! Let me get a little more precise on what I am looking for:
Q1: I would be using the new MBP 15" in mobile setting (all things equal). Usually "mobile" would mean "no heavy lifiting" on graphics as you pointed out entirely right:
>> Would the simple fact of 256 (vs. 512MB graphics) suck less on my battery, and I could count with about 3-4 hrs (web/office)? (vs. less than 3hrs with the 512 option?)
Q2: Would the 256MB produce less heat when barely used, compared to the 512? Or is there no difference to be expected when used similarly?
Q3: ..and that one actually stems staright from your advice: would heavy lifting drain a 256MB 15" MBP more than the 512, or less?
Thanks again for all feedback!!
The biggest heat generation is going to come from the main CPU and the video GPU. I don't think RAM or VRAM generates much heat. Also, the top power drains are probably the CPU, the GPU, the hard drive, and the display (not necessarily in that order). I really don't think increasing the VRAM is going to make that much difference relative to those other things, assuming the VRAM is connected to the same GPU running at the same speed. I've doubled the RAM in my laptop with little or no impact on battery life. I assume increasing VRAM would behave similarly.
It's hilarious that people are getting pissed off about the remote no longer being included. I don't know about the rest of you, but personally I have a handful of the damn things at home and rarely use them. if you're already coughing up the big bucks for your MBP who gives a shit about another nineteen bucks.
Also it's great to see an apple fan/news site so filled with people who are constantly upset and whining about Apple's choices.
As I'm sure it's been already stated, this is the same design as the original aluminum PowerBook introduced nearly 5 years ago. I guess "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." But I think we expect more from Apple in terms of cutting edge industrial design and features. Even 5 years ago the case revision was merely evolutionary. We don't even have a magnetic latch yet, which is a pretty ho-hum feature improvement in itself. Show us something new, guys.
I can't prove it but my educated guess is that Apple cost shifts its sales to Europe to avoid the higher tax regime, thus making Europe look less profitable.
It is simply done by charging the European subsidiary a higher wholesale price, thereby reducing the profit on sales in Europe and raising the profit of the US HQ.
btw I am surprised that you are able to obtain detailed figures on Apple's Europe operations. Here in Australia they release no financial details.
You can read their US filings, in there, they break down their sales & profits by region of the globe. The information isn't that detailed, such as all of Europe rather than any given country.
It's hilarious that people are getting pissed off about the remote no longer being included. I don't know about the rest of you, but personally I have a handful of the damn things at home and rarely use them. if you're already coughing up the big bucks for your MBP who gives a shit about another nineteen bucks.
Also it's great to see an apple fan/news site so filled with people who are constantly upset and whining about Apple's choices.
And think about it this way. Apple was giving away remotes with all computers except the mac pro and maybe the mini (not sure about that one). I'm sure they did some research into who was actually using them and realized it's better for them financially if they're not included and if someone wants one bad enough, they will pay for it.
Penryn iMacs with 2 gig RAM across the board and no remote next Tuesday!
Nah, they're going one step further. You've heards of bring your own monitor, keyboard, and mouse. Well, they're throwing in the display, but its bring your own keyboard, mouse, remote, cables, RAM, operating system, and software...and there's a $200 price increase Apple will innovate by being the first computer maker to ship all their computers in a barebones configuration.
does anyone know if the new macbook pros are available immediately in stock at apple stores yet? I'm gonna try and see if I can get a new MBP because my current one has some hardware issues and is about 16 days old. this is my second one this month because of hardware test errors. hopefully... im gonna try to get them to replace my current one since its still under warranty.
How do you decide what makes an update good or bad? I think the updates are very good. For the same price as the previous models you get more storage, the VRAM is doubled and that doesn't even include what is new like the Penryn processor (SSE4) and the Multi-Touch track pad.
How do you decide what makes an update good or bad? I think the updates are very good. For the same price as the previous models you get more storage, the VRAM is doubled and that doesn't even include what is new like the Penryn processor (SSE4) and the Multi-Touch track pad.
How are the haters going to win their argument if you keeping bringing up facts and common sense?
How do you decide what makes an update good or bad?
Simple. I compare the update to the old model, and to the price/features of comparable PC machines.
Overall, I think the update is good, but considering you can get a PC laptop with a DVD burner for under $500, I consider the lack of superdrive in the base model bad.
Comments
Today, I'm one of those whiners that we all hate so much... here goes...
This day made me very sad because it means I will soon have to spend a lot of money on a mac notebook that I don't really want.
Well, won't go too hard on you since I've expressed my disappointment at lack of touchpad on Macbook earlier in this thread.
But I doubt that you "have to spend" *any* money.
Are you completely without a computer at the moment? The fact that you're posting tells me the answer to that is 'no'.
The consensus seems to be that the device you want more will probably be out in 4-6 months. If you just can't wait, then I guess Apple does have you by the short hairs. But I truly doubt that that's the case.
Patience, grasshopper.
$19 for that remote!
It should be more like 19 cents. No wonder the stock keeps falling.
hmmm...
De-bundling the remote looks to me to be a good thing, not bad (both from a (trivial) stock POV and user POV.)
1) who needs a remote for a laptop anyway?
2) who needs ANOTHER remote at all?
Glad they dropped it.
From what I've read, it sounds like there are still DRM issues to be worked out for movie playback. It's working in some cases on the PC side, but there are many PC owners with bluray drives who are unable to watch movies. I can't imagine apple releasing before those problems are worked out.
I believe that's correct. HD playback requires (by license) that the video path is "secure" (ie, it can't be captured/recorded). Microsoft went draconian and put DRM throughout Vista to the point that the path from RAM to the video card can be locked down. Hopefully, Apple won't [need] to go so far because that could mean changes to the OS.
The HDMI connection on the AppleTV became HDCP (I think that's the right acronym) compliant with the Take 2.0 upgrade. Or at least it seems to get activated with rentals. I don't think you can implement HDCP on DVI (could be wrong), and that is what is needed for the player to handshake with the display/TV in order to establish a secure connection. So at a minimum, I think they'd have to start shipping computers with HDMI connections if you wanted to watch blu-ray on an external monitor. Who knows, the license to play blu-ray video may require that they implement HDCP even on the connection between the video card and the built-in display on laptops!
Yes! The problem is we have been waiting for a long, long time. I remember when everyone was expecting a major redesign for the Intel transition. It never came. The excuse was that Apple needed to get Intel based models out right away and didn't have them time. So everyone thought the next revision would bring changes. Never happened. Then the next revision. Nope. Over and over again. The lower-end MacBook has features the higher-end MacBook Pros lack. How long will this stand? With reports of slowing iPod growth and the Mac as the only remaining growth driver can Apple really afford to be complacent? I don't think so.
Apple hasn't become complacent, they have become to big for their own good. Trying to enter into so many markets and gaining market share while trying to maintain that consumer to producer image, just isn't working anymore. Look at the demands we are placing on them and I am guilty of the same, while at the same time they're trying to please coffee sipping yuppies with MacBook Air and Starbucks stores on iPhone. I read that analysis article, and I hope it reminds apple it was the actual Mac community (not iPod or iPhone) that kept them afloat while they were struggling. It might be the shot in the arm they need and then we might get all these frills.
Although I'm still left wondering a little with the case design: keyboard and mag latch I can understand, but what would you do with the case? Thinner? It's a pro machine, it's not gonna get much thinner. A different material? What dissipates heat better than aluminum? Hells yeah the bottom of those things get hot because it's emitting heat instead of keeping it internally. The curved design of the MBA? I wouldn't want that as I'm sure many other people wouldn't either. They put an iSight in the screen bezel for god sakes. That thing is tiny and does an amazing job. I'm curious and very open as to hear what you and other want. Maybe you'd convince me, but all I hear right now is "Give me case redesign." "Well what do you want?" "I don't know...give me case redesign."
I'm a bit confused. I believe the Penryn has a front side bus at 800mHz. Why are they shipping with 667mHz pc5300 ram? Wouldn't they benefit from pc6400 800mHz RAM?
You're confused because that's not how the frontside bus works.
FSB is quad data rate, so 800MHz is actually 4*200MHz
RAM is double data rate, 667MHz is actually 2*333MHz
333MHz is faster than 200MHz, so memory is faster than the FSB. The RAM, in other words, will be waiting for the processor occasionally.
I HATE APPLE ...
what kind of treatment is this !!!!
i've been waiting for the damn update for around 6 months now only to get this crappy update that can't even compete with a top of the line sony laptop that costs less..
whats worse, in the UK, the MacBook Pro 15 inch 2.5GHz costs "1,599.00 GBP" roughly
$3,155 USD compared to $2,499.00 USD in the states. thats a $656 price difference. and thats NOT whats bloody annoying .. the damn thing comes with LOWER specs than the US version!!! an unupgradable "NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT graphics with 256MB SDRAM".
this better be a mistake..
P.S. sorry guys, i was really angry when i started writing this. am still angry but not as much. i guess i'll order my laptop from the states. alot cheaper with better specs. only problem is i'll have to pay for a new power adapter *apples ones are expensive* and the keyboard has an american layout so i'll have to get used to that. *sigh*
ohh, and i don't really hate apple. atleast not alot.
Specifications and usability are two very different things. For one thing, Sony can't run OS X.
I just checked the UK Apple site and the specs are the same as the US one (i.e. 256MB for the 2.4GHz configuration and 512MB for the 2.5 or 2.6GHz configuration).
Now, as to the U.S. Dollar vs Pound Sterling issue. That's been going on for years. And don't get me started on the cost of cars in the U.K. vs the Continent.
Also, don't forget the U.S. price does not include local sales tax. So, that sort of mitigates the price difference... kind of... erm, how's the Premiership going?
YipYipYipee
HD is pointless on a 17" screen.
While HD may be pointless, those buying bluray disks to watch on their giant screen at home still want to be able to watch them on the computer as well (and not have to buy movies twice).
---
Thanks for your feedback! Let me get a little more precise on what I am looking for:
Q1: I would be using the new MBP 15" in mobile setting (all things equal). Usually "mobile" would mean "no heavy lifiting" on graphics as you pointed out entirely right:
>> Would the simple fact of 256 (vs. 512MB graphics) suck less on my battery, and I could count with about 3-4 hrs (web/office)? (vs. less than 3hrs with the 512 option?)
Q2: Would the 256MB produce less heat when barely used, compared to the 512? Or is there no difference to be expected when used similarly?
Q3: ..and that one actually stems staright from your advice: would heavy lifting drain a 256MB 15" MBP more than the 512, or less?
Thanks again for all feedback!!
The biggest heat generation is going to come from the main CPU and the video GPU. I don't think RAM or VRAM generates much heat. Also, the top power drains are probably the CPU, the GPU, the hard drive, and the display (not necessarily in that order). I really don't think increasing the VRAM is going to make that much difference relative to those other things, assuming the VRAM is connected to the same GPU running at the same speed. I've doubled the RAM in my laptop with little or no impact on battery life. I assume increasing VRAM would behave similarly.
Also it's great to see an apple fan/news site so filled with people who are constantly upset and whining about Apple's choices.
As I'm sure it's been already stated, this is the same design as the original aluminum PowerBook introduced nearly 5 years ago. I guess "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." But I think we expect more from Apple in terms of cutting edge industrial design and features. Even 5 years ago the case revision was merely evolutionary. We don't even have a magnetic latch yet, which is a pretty ho-hum feature improvement in itself. Show us something new, guys.
I can't prove it but my educated guess is that Apple cost shifts its sales to Europe to avoid the higher tax regime, thus making Europe look less profitable.
It is simply done by charging the European subsidiary a higher wholesale price, thereby reducing the profit on sales in Europe and raising the profit of the US HQ.
btw I am surprised that you are able to obtain detailed figures on Apple's Europe operations. Here in Australia they release no financial details.
You can read their US filings, in there, they break down their sales & profits by region of the globe. The information isn't that detailed, such as all of Europe rather than any given country.
It's hilarious that people are getting pissed off about the remote no longer being included. I don't know about the rest of you, but personally I have a handful of the damn things at home and rarely use them. if you're already coughing up the big bucks for your MBP who gives a shit about another nineteen bucks.
Also it's great to see an apple fan/news site so filled with people who are constantly upset and whining about Apple's choices.
And think about it this way. Apple was giving away remotes with all computers except the mac pro and maybe the mini (not sure about that one). I'm sure they did some research into who was actually using them and realized it's better for them financially if they're not included and if someone wants one bad enough, they will pay for it.
Another question I forgot to ask
Is it worth purchasing the Apple Care Plan. Would you recommend spending the extra $250?
I wouldn't buy a computer without it. They sure don't built build Macs like they used to.
Penryn iMacs with 2 gig RAM across the board and no remote next Tuesday!
Nah, they're going one step further. You've heards of bring your own monitor, keyboard, and mouse. Well, they're throwing in the display, but its bring your own keyboard, mouse, remote, cables, RAM, operating system, and software...and there's a $200 price increase Apple will innovate by being the first computer maker to ship all their computers in a barebones configuration.
How do you decide what makes an update good or bad? I think the updates are very good. For the same price as the previous models you get more storage, the VRAM is doubled and that doesn't even include what is new like the Penryn processor (SSE4) and the Multi-Touch track pad.
How are the haters going to win their argument if you keeping bringing up facts and common sense?
How do you decide what makes an update good or bad?
Simple. I compare the update to the old model, and to the price/features of comparable PC machines.
Overall, I think the update is good, but considering you can get a PC laptop with a DVD burner for under $500, I consider the lack of superdrive in the base model bad.