Apple introduces Penryn-based MacBooks and MacBook Pros

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  • Reply 281 of 423
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    You have to weigh the number of people who will be up-sold to the $1299 model against the number who are just thinking "fuck it, I'm buying a PC".



    I'm not going to defend the Combo drive, but for every customer who says "fuck it, I'm buying a PC," there's one of us for whom that is just not an option. For us, the alternative to a new Mac is a used Mac, and there is a flourishing market for them, whereas the "market" for used PCs is the landfill! If some of you can tolerate the thought of buying a PC to save money, more power to you, but a lot of us will give up computers altogether first!



    P.S. Maybe Linux will achieve a level of usability someday that would make it an alternative; then we can all save money on cheap PCs. Meanwhile, if I wanted to write all my own software, I'd still have my Commodore 64. (Well, you caught me: I do!)
  • Reply 282 of 423
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    When you restrict your search to just 13" widescreen portables, the MacBook does still compare well (apart from the combo drive stupidity), especially on the processor front now that it has Penryn. A similarly configured Dell M1330 (processor bumped to 2.0 GHz, bluetooth added and battery bumped to 56 WHr) is slightly more expensive at $1149, but it does give the purchaser the option of sacrificing a bit of CPU power in order to shave $100 off (drop the processor to 1.66 GHz and the price is $1049)



    So, if you want a 13" laptop with DVD burner, 1 GB RAM and 120 GB HDD, you can get the Dell for $1049. But to get a DVD burner from Apple, you have to pay at least $1299. Yes, you get other stuff thrown in that makes the asking price good value, but if $1049 is already stretching your budget you aren't going to move to $1299.



    If you relax the criteria and start comparing with 15.4" widescreen machines, things get really embarrassing for the MacBook. Whilst the 15.4" screen makes the laptops bigger and heavier, in many consumers' eyes, the 15.4" screen is better value, because it's bigger (even though the resolution is the same as the 13.3" screens so you don't get any extra real-estate).



    The Dell Inspiron 1525 with 15.4" screen, 3 GB RAM, 250 GB HDD, 2.0 GHz CPU, 802.11a/b/g and bluetooth costs $969 and to most folks, that's going to make the MacBook look like very poor value. All the other major manufacturers (HP, Toshiba, Acer, Asus, Sony, Lenovo) have similar configuration laptops.



    So, in conclusion, there are a few things that suck about this update:
    • Combo drive on entry-level MacBook is taking the piss

    • Entry-level cost of 15.4" screen Apple laptop is still $1999 (if Apple can do this well with a niche 13.3" MacBook, imagine how much market share it could take if it offered a 15.4" version alongside)

    • The highest-resolution option on the 15.4" MacBook Pro is 1440 x 900 (other manufacturers offer up to 1680 x 1050). I don't give a stuff about whether such a resolution is necessary for video watching (it isn't) - it gives you more screen real-estate to work with and that's the attraction.




    Monsieur H, the point is that there are trade-offs, and Apple make them almost flawlessly every time. With the Combo debacle, as you say, it's a matter of weighing how many people are upsold to how many are driven away (weighted by the respective margins). I doubt Apple don't know what they're doing in this regard, as they have a ton of experience with the subject--the iMac, mini and MacBook have had this distinction for years. There is little reason to think Apple are doing the Combo dance for anything else than successful upselling.



    With respect to the other points, having less choice (like no 15-inch MacBook) can be beneficial to Apple in several ways: having less models means considerably reduced costs in R&D and logistics (in this context is where cannibalisation makes sense as a concern), upselling possibilities, ...



    Also, one must keep in mind that Apple is not targeting the entire market nor too rapid market share growth (not so fast that it comes at the expense of long-term profitability or brand issues). Additionally, if Apple can "not compare well" with Dell's specs and still grow 4 times the PC market with margins Dell can only dream of, they have all the incentive to do so.
  • Reply 283 of 423
    so the updates weren't up to everyone's standards. that's to be expected- apple will definitely do a full redesign (possibly add like a 13.3 to the MBP line?) this summer with the release of "centrino 2" aka Montevina. This will be nice as I also see the new 9600 nvidia card to be notebook- ready. Keeping with the same price points, I would expect to see hi-res option for the 15", possibly a different color case (black ano. aluminium anyone?) and the macbook/air style keyboard. With all this talk, I got to day dreaming:



    My Macbook Pro... ha



    2.6 ghz 8mb cache, 1000mhz FSB (centrino 2 spec?)

    2(+)gb DDR3 RAM (yeah maybe not this summer....)

    512mb 9600m gt

    1680 x 1050 LED (OLED by say Q3 2009)

    200gb 7200rpm HDD

    Backlit MB keyboard

    USB 3.0 (again, not by this summer... see Q1 or Q2 2009)

    802.11n/ bluetooth 2.1

    more power to the webcam (5 megapixel? they have in it cell phones right now....)

    slimmer case- 0.75-0.85".. not necessarily tapered





    so that's just me, and I'm probably dreaming, but it'd be nice, right?
  • Reply 284 of 423
    Who pressed buy??? I know I just did!!! Although everyone else is saying how poor the updates are, they are exactly what I was expecting and I think they are right on target for where Apple should be.
  • Reply 285 of 423
    lundylundy Posts: 4,466member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    AAlmost no upsell? Nonsense. There's the faster processor, 1 GiB of additional RAM and 40 GB of HDD.



    Yes, and if the the entry level had the burner, it would be a hard upsell to explain 3 things that the customer can't immediately identify with what the machine can do. DVD burning is a clear and easily-understandable feature that SEEMS to be worth some money. If told only about the extra memory, most customers would not cough up the $200.

    Quote:

    You have to weigh the number of people who will be up-sold to the $1299 model against the number who are just thinking "fuck it, I'm buying a PC".



    I think Apple has those figures - you and I do not. If the figures showed lots of customers walking out, you would see a strategy change. Just as we saw with the 4GB and 8GB iPhones, many (and for iPhone, most) customers when faced with an upsell that is priced "just barely within" what they are willing to pay, will pay it. For those who just can't bring themselves to make the jump, at that point they are far enough into buying one that they will buy the entry-level.

    Quote:

    Go on Lundy, I know you want to say something "bad" about Apple; all these attempts to defend the indefensible must be tiring. Go on. It won't hurt. A combo drive in a $1099 laptop is ridiculous and you know it.



    Exactly. It isn't worth it. That is why it will upsell.



    I'm not defending anything - I am trying to explain how what you guys as customers think would be "nice" (for you) for Apple to do versus what an actual sales decision consists of.



    As far as sales and marketing go, they do not care how much people complain - in fact, if people don't complain, the price is probably too low. The only thing that matters is whether they buy. And Apple has had no problem with the MacBooks selling - they are at 17% notebook market share.



    You raise your average selling price by having a low-end model that isn't worth the money compared to the next higher model, and you price the next higher model just barely higher enough so that the customer is likely to go for it.



    iPhones are a perfect example - once you are already paying $499 for 4GB, and they offer you twice the memory for only $100 more, it is very tempting, and most people went for it.
  • Reply 286 of 423
    robmrobm Posts: 1,068member
    "As far as sales and marketing go, they do not care how much people complain - in fact, if people don't complain, the price is probably too low."



    There's no problem with people complaining 'round these here parts !

    They've got it down to a tee ... :-)
  • Reply 286 of 423
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Outsider View Post


    The good:

    Well needed processor upgrades.

    The graphics card is a nice improvement.



    The ugly:

    That we have to wait a few more months for a completely revamped mobile lineup.



    What do you mean GPU update? Isn't it the same but with a bit more memory?

    Also, I would like to see some bench marks as on paper, they are supposed to be 20% more powerful per gigahertz yet consume less power (=longer battery life).



    Any bench marks and again, what do you mean graphic card update?



    Thanks
  • Reply 288 of 423
    robmrobm Posts: 1,068member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by frankiilacomposer View Post


    What do you mean GPU update? Isn't it the same but with a bit more memory?

    Also, I would like to see some bench marks as on paper, they are supposed to be 20% more powerful per gigahertz yet consume less power (=longer battery life).



    Any bench marks and again, what do you mean graphic card update?



    Thanks



    You'll likely have to wait 'til barefeats or anandtech get their claws on the new models to see some realworld tests. Shouldn't be long.
  • Reply 289 of 423
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by frankiilacomposer View Post


    What do you mean GPU update? Isn't it the same but with a bit more memory?



    I understand just wanting to see bench marks. Always cool to see, and I'm sure we will shortly, but "a bit more memory?" 256 to 512 -- that's double the memory. A bit more than a bit more, don'tcha think?
  • Reply 290 of 423
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,870member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lundy View Post


    I think Apple has those figures - you and I do not. If the figures showed lots of customers walking out



    Apple can't have those figures, because at least some of (and I think majority of) the potential customers that are put off aren't walking into a bricks-and-mortar store and then walking out again. They are doing their investigating online and by talking to friends. They don't even get as far as the Apple Store.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lundy View Post


    I'm not defending anything - I am trying to explain how what you guys as customers think would be "nice" (for you) for Apple to do versus what an actual sales decision consists of.



    I'm not arguing this from the perspective of what would be nice for me. I'm not in the market for a MacBook, I'm waiting for the MacBook Pro redesign. I'm arguing this from a business perspective in that I think Apple would sell more MacBooks if the bottom config had a DVD burner drive.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lundy View Post


    And Apple has had no problem with the MacBooks selling - they are at 17% notebook market share.



    17 % ? That's a much higher number than I've seen quoted anywhere. The high numbers are for retail-only and are therefore meaningless. Apple's notebook market share in the U.S. is probably around the 8 % mark, and internationally is probably around the 3 to 4 % mark. There's a lot of room for improvement here.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lundy View Post


    iPhones are a perfect example - once you are already paying $499 for 4GB, and they offer you twice the memory for only $100 more, it is very tempting, and most people went for it.



    The iPhone had less comparable competition. If the MacBook existed in a vacuum Apple's behaviour would make more sense, but as it is it has to compete in the wider laptop market and the $1099 model doesn't.
  • Reply 291 of 423
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RobM View Post


    You'll likely have to wait 'til barefeats or anandtech get their claws on the new models to see some realworld tests. Shouldn't be long.



    But was the graphic card updated?



    I have a macbook pro about 5 months old, 2.2, LED, 128 gpu and have an offer for $1525 of which I can then have an apple friend buy the new one at about the same price.



    The 2.4 should give some boost, but on paper I think its supposed to be even more of a speed boost with newer 4.1 plus more power - still, confused about the graphic card update.



    Looks the same to me -
  • Reply 292 of 423
    teckstudteckstud Posts: 6,476member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Adjei View Post


    They should also drop DVD drives since they are cutting into their itunes rentals and movies.



    ?? What I meant is that Blu-ray is not yet established and DVD is. By including Blu-ray Apple would actually be enabling it to succeed with consumers rather than iTunes downloading HD. Sony laptops have Blu-ray- why not Apple?
  • Reply 293 of 423
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by brlogan View Post


    The $1099 Macbook still only has a Combo Optical Drive!? Come on Apple, I think Superdrives across the board have been due for quite some time.



    If Apple added Superdrives across the board, most people would likely opt for the low end model. I know I would. The Superdrive is the only thing that would make me fork over a couple of hundred dollars more for the middle ground computer.
  • Reply 294 of 423
    ronboronbo Posts: 669member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Outsider View Post


    The keyboard layout (removal of the enter key and adding another option key)



    Ack!! They removed the Enter key??

    I use Maya, and Maya makes a distinction between Enter and Return.

    What do you do if you need to hit Enter and not Return?
  • Reply 295 of 423
    robmrobm Posts: 1,068member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by frankiilacomposer View Post


    But was the graphic card updated?



    I have a macbook pro about 5 months old, 2.2, LED, 128 gpu and have an offer for $1525 of which I can then have an apple friend buy the new one at about the same price.



    The 2.4 should give some boost, but on paper I think its supposed to be even more of a speed boost with newer 4.1 plus more power - still, confused about the graphic card update.



    Looks the same to me -



    http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL...ly/macbook_pro



    sheesh - you can either double or quadruple the spec on the gpu over your current gpu.



    Doesn't look the same from where I sit ...
  • Reply 296 of 423
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mzaslove View Post


    This is the second time on this thread people have said there is no LED 15" screens.



    From Apple's page:



    15-inch MacBook Pro



    15.4-inch (diagonal) antiglare widescreen TFT LED backlit display with support for millions of colors; optional glossy widescreen display.



    Come on -- get it right.



    Oh, thanks, I missed that. Yay
  • Reply 297 of 423
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aiolos View Post


    Oh, thanks, I missed that. Yay



    'S cool... it was just my 15" MBP with the LED was feelin' dissed.
  • Reply 298 of 423
    I just ordered 17" MBP 2.5Ghz High res LED screen 200gb hard drive (7200rpm) and I even bucked up for the remote which I'll prolly never use... $3200 of beauty, i think.
  • Reply 299 of 423
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RobM View Post


    http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL...ly/macbook_pro



    sheesh - you can either double or quadruple the spec on the gpu over your current gpu.



    Doesn't look the same from where I sit ...



    512MB Ram on the same GPU as a 128MB Ram makes a difference but not as much as going to even an 8700 would have...



    I bought my MBP in September 2007....6 months ago....I have a 15" LED, 2.4GHz C2D, 160GB HD, 2GB RAM and 8600 256MB......id get maybe a 7% increase from this update overall....



    To be honest if you can get a refurb 2.4GHz Santa Rosa...I think you're better off. save some cash for the same performance....only thing you lose is the multi-touch....which seems kinda silly because the trackpad on the MBP is the same size as it is on my Santa Rosa
  • Reply 300 of 423
    robmrobm Posts: 1,068member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CoreyMac View Post


    512MB Ram on the same GPU as a 128MB Ram makes a difference but not as much as going to even an 8700 would have...



    I bought my MBP in September 2007....6 months ago....I have a 15" LED, 2.4GHz C2D, 160GB HD, 2GB RAM and 8600 256MB......id get maybe a 7% increase from this update overall....



    To be honest if you can get a refurb 2.4GHz Santa Rosa...I think you're better off. save some cash for the same performance....only thing you lose is the multi-touch....which seems kinda silly because the trackpad on the MBP is the same size as it is on my Santa Rosa



    Yep Corey - I agree for average use.

    But if you're using any app that leverages the gpu then you are going to benefit in a speed increase.



    Whether or not the increase is enough to make a difference to your business - well, no one can make that call except you.

    I know you that - but for anyone following along - I'd wait until barefeats get their tests up.



    cheers
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