Now they do, but wasn't it just a few years ago when 1M hours was ONLY in Enterprise rated drives? I'm still trying to find something finite for its definition but there doesn't seem to be one. There seems to be a lot of common beliefs around the definition but no IEEE or other classification.
And they have an excellent marketing division. Fanboy or not, you can't deny the impressiveness of their marketing engine. Who knows, perhaps they purposely choose the DeskStar with 1M hours just to get free press that states that it's not labeled as Enterprise Grade but does have the requisite MTBF rating of such drives. I certainly don't put it past them.
But you yourself pretty much said that times change, in different words. So maybe it's "server grade" as of maybe 2004. That's hardly comforting.
I really can't believe that you're praising their weaseliness.
But you yourself pretty much said that times change, in different words. So maybe it's "server grade" as of maybe 2004. That's hardly comforting.
I really can't believe that you're praising their weaseliness.
I'm not praising it, I'm just saying it's not a big deal. Marketing always try to use buzz words that have no specific meaning. 1M hours is 114 years and the reviews of this drive are great.
I don't understand why you think they can't call it Server Grade. There is no definition that I know of and they use this exact drive in their servers. It's not like they found one backwoods shop in a 3rd-world country using it as a server to supplement their definition.
What's the advantage of doing a TM backup to a TC opposed to a backup connected directly to your machine? Wouldn't a direct connection (via FW or internal) be faster anyway compared to wireless?
So you can backup multiple machines - why ask this question since you just answered it yourself in the next sentence?
Quote:
And why in the world would someone want to do multiple backups from multiple machines to a single drive (TC)? When that one drive craps out, all machines have lost there backup rather than just one. Enlighten me please.
So what if all machines lost their backup? Replace the drive and back them up again. Drive loss is always a risk whether it contains the backup of one or more machines. People who are serious about backups have multiple offsite backups anyway - this product is not meant to fit that bill.
Quote:
Just my opinion, not meaning to start any arguments. I'm sure someone can shoot it down, it's just that some people get caught up in so much hype about some products.
I don't think it's hype. I think people want a device that is always on, and can back up multiple machines, both desktop and portable. This fits the bid - it's like any other NAS system but it supports Time Machine and has a built-in router. Not only that, but consider that this feature will get people to back up. Whether you think it's the best solution or not, it's getting them to back up - something they weren't doing before.
I don't understand why you think they can't call it Server Grade. There is no definition that I know of and they use this exact drive in their servers. It's not like they found one backwoods shop in a 3rd-world country using it as a server to supplement their definition.
Because they're trying to make the drive sound a lot better (more special) than it really is. It doesn't matter how many people do it, slapping in a desktop drive into a server doesn't make it a server rated drive.
Because they're trying to make the drive sound a lot better (more special) than it really is. It doesn't matter how many people do it, slapping in a desktop drive into a server doesn't make it a server rated drive.
There is no such definition as "server rated drive" so Apple can say what they want, but they do have validation since they have been using it in their own servers. No one is claiming that this rated as Enterprise grade.
On opposite ends of the spectrum we need to read between the lines of marketing and between the lines of technical specifications, which is just another way of marketing electronics. One technique uses unspecific terms and the other very specific terms, but neither one gives a full picture of a product.
Because they're trying to make the drive sound a lot better (more special) than it really is. It doesn't matter how many people do it, slapping in a desktop drive into a server doesn't make it a server rated drive.
Nothing can make it officially "server-rated" because there IS no such official classification. However, using it in your own servers certainly would make it "server-rated" as far as you're concerned, and that's the only standard of truthfulness you can be held to. If you used that term for it in Time Capsule but wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole for your own servers, then somebody could take you to task.
There is no such definition as "server rated drive" so Apple can say what they want, but they do have validation since they have been using it in their own servers.
At least they're consistent, but it's still just a desktop drive. If the maker of said drives intended them to be used in servers, then the drive maker should be saying so in their literature.
The other part of the problem is that the terminology they use is intended to give the impression that it's an enterprise storage kind of drive, when it's anything but that. That's why I call it weasely. Even if all marketing departments do it to some extent, that doesn't make it right
Sorry for the noob questions, but do I need to have wireless internet to use time capsule as a back up drive? I know I have an Airport card in my Mac Pro, but no wireless router. Will I need to purchase one? If so, what kind is best for this?
Also, one more thing I'm confused about. I have four terabytes in my computer, can I buy four time capsules, and set one to back up each drive, or does time machine only work with one capsule? Thanks!
At least they're consistent, but it's still just a desktop drive. If the maker of said drives intended them to be used in servers, then the drive maker should be saying so in their literature.
If the only two grades for 3.5" HDDs are Desktop and Enterprise, and said drive is not advertised as such or fails to meet one or more requirement of the more stringent, Enterprise Grade classification, then said drive defaults Desktop Grade as there is no other classification available.
Additionally, if said drive is not uncommonly used in servers and there is no such classification as Server Grade, then an unofficial designation can veridically be placed upon said drive without cause for misrepresentation.
Sorry for the noob questions, but do I need to have wireless internet to use time capsule as a back up drive? I know I have an Airport card in my Mac Pro, but no wireless router. Will I need to purchase one? If so, what kind is best for this?
Also, one more thing I'm confused about. I have four terabytes in my computer, can I buy four time capsules, and set one to back up each drive, or does time machine only work with one capsule? Thanks!
"Good news, Everybody, Time Capsule is a wireless router"
You don't need wireless, and the Ethernet would be faster if you need to use it on a network. If you don't need the Airport Base Station router part of Time Capsule for your Mac Pro then you'd be better off just adding a HDD to your machine for the TimeMachine backups.Once you put a new drive in a prompt will appear asking you if you want to you use it for your backups.
Sorry for the noob questions, but do I need to have wireless internet to use time capsule as a back up drive? I know I have an Airport card in my Mac Pro, but no wireless router. Will I need to purchase one?!
At least they're consistent, but it's still just a desktop drive. If the maker of said drives intended them to be used in servers, then the drive maker should be saying so in their literature.
Doesn't matter much. The Google statistics show MTTF specs mean little and the Carnagie Mellon study of fiber channel and SCSI vs SATA drives didn't see much difference in quality.
You're seriously making a huge mountain out of drive manufacturer's mole hills. Desktop drives are effectively equivlaent to Enterprise drives in terms of reliability. Trusting any single drive backup method is better than nothing but sticking an "enterprise" grade drive in there simply fattens someone else's bottom line for little addtional value. The superior warranty isn't going to help you since you aren't a data center with hot swaps and RAID arrays.
Server Grade, Desktop Grade, Enterprise Grade. BFD. One drive is one drive and all of these drives suffer from infant mortality far higher than their MTTF specs would have you believe.
This is why a lot of folks were hoping for ZFS as the Leopard file system.
Doesn't matter much. The Google statistics show MTTF specs mean little and the Carnagie Mellon study of fiber channel and SCSI vs SATA drives didn't see much difference in quality.
You're seriously making a huge mountain out of drive manufacturer's mole hills. Desktop drives are effectively equivlaent to Enterprise drives in terms of reliability. Trusting any single drive backup method is better than nothing but sticking an "enterprise" grade drive in there simply fattens someone else's bottom line for little addtional value. The superior warranty isn't going to help you since you aren't a data center with hot swaps and RAID arrays.
Server Grade, Desktop Grade, Enterprise Grade. BFD. One drive is one drive and all of these drives suffer from infant mortality far higher than their MTTF specs would have you believe.
This is why a lot of folks were hoping for ZFS as the Leopard file system.
Doesn't matter much. The Google statistics show MTTF specs mean little and the Carnagie Mellon study of fiber channel and SCSI vs SATA drives didn't see much difference in quality.
You're seriously making a huge mountain out of drive manufacturer's mole hills. Desktop drives are effectively equivlaent to Enterprise drives in terms of reliability.
And Wd/IBM/Hitach Deathstar drives are to be voided at ANY cost. Enterprise my arse. I have a machine running 24/7 and i now swap them routinely after 1 year as they tend to corrupt after 1.5.
So - dunno but 114 years ain't 1.5 years and Goole prooved that as well.
The MTBF might be accurate if you keep your disk in a 100% dust free,13 degrees centigrades server room. But lets face it - whose house/appartment has THAT ? And I doubt that Extreme Makeover - House Edition will come to the rescue either. Bus driver - m-o-v-e t-h-a-t hard disk ? Hmmmm \
This sounds obvious, but can anyone confirm that assuming I'm using the drive in time capsule to back up a computer wirelessly with TM, I can still use it for other normal storage purposes both from the same wirelessly connected mac and any other computers on the network?
This sounds obvious, but can anyone confirm that assuming I'm using the drive in time capsule to back up a computer wirelessly with TM, I can still use it for other normal storage purposes both from the same wirelessly connected mac and any other computers on the network?
Thanks
Sure can. It sticks a single Time Machine folder on the root of the HDD. In there are fodlers for each of your backed up Macs. Welcome to AI.
Hence the term "server grade". So all blame goes to Hitachi and Apple is just an innocent victim of marketing.
Great - its a DeathStar Disk. For back ups. On a disk running 24/7.
May I just ask one thing - why does anyone else here think that it is widely considered that those disks amrked the end of IBM disks if the disks were that good ?
Honestly ? Did samsung sells its HD division - no they made it - dixit Toshiba - dixit Seagate. Plese any informed user do a Google on Deaskstar Disks and their reliability.
And Apple is never an innocent victim - if you are one of the most profitable and sucessfull computer companies in the world (eat your hat M. Dell) you are never the victim but part of the process/problem.
Comments
Now they do, but wasn't it just a few years ago when 1M hours was ONLY in Enterprise rated drives? I'm still trying to find something finite for its definition but there doesn't seem to be one. There seems to be a lot of common beliefs around the definition but no IEEE or other classification.
And they have an excellent marketing division. Fanboy or not, you can't deny the impressiveness of their marketing engine. Who knows, perhaps they purposely choose the DeskStar with 1M hours just to get free press that states that it's not labeled as Enterprise Grade but does have the requisite MTBF rating of such drives. I certainly don't put it past them.
But you yourself pretty much said that times change, in different words. So maybe it's "server grade" as of maybe 2004. That's hardly comforting.
I really can't believe that you're praising their weaseliness.
But you yourself pretty much said that times change, in different words. So maybe it's "server grade" as of maybe 2004. That's hardly comforting.
I really can't believe that you're praising their weaseliness.
I'm not praising it, I'm just saying it's not a big deal. Marketing always try to use buzz words that have no specific meaning. 1M hours is 114 years and the reviews of this drive are great.
I'm not praising it, I'm just saying it's not a big deal. Marketing always try to use buzz words that have no specific meaning.
I think this goes above and beyond that.
1M hours is 114 years
The total life of one drive is not what is really being measured (or rather, estimated), it cannot simply be be restated like that.
I think this goes above and beyond that.
I don't understand why you think they can't call it Server Grade. There is no definition that I know of and they use this exact drive in their servers. It's not like they found one backwoods shop in a 3rd-world country using it as a server to supplement their definition.
What's the advantage of doing a TM backup to a TC opposed to a backup connected directly to your machine? Wouldn't a direct connection (via FW or internal) be faster anyway compared to wireless?
So you can backup multiple machines - why ask this question since you just answered it yourself in the next sentence?
And why in the world would someone want to do multiple backups from multiple machines to a single drive (TC)? When that one drive craps out, all machines have lost there backup rather than just one. Enlighten me please.
So what if all machines lost their backup? Replace the drive and back them up again. Drive loss is always a risk whether it contains the backup of one or more machines. People who are serious about backups have multiple offsite backups anyway - this product is not meant to fit that bill.
Just my opinion, not meaning to start any arguments. I'm sure someone can shoot it down, it's just that some people get caught up in so much hype about some products.
I don't think it's hype. I think people want a device that is always on, and can back up multiple machines, both desktop and portable. This fits the bid - it's like any other NAS system but it supports Time Machine and has a built-in router. Not only that, but consider that this feature will get people to back up. Whether you think it's the best solution or not, it's getting them to back up - something they weren't doing before.
I don't understand why you think they can't call it Server Grade. There is no definition that I know of and they use this exact drive in their servers. It's not like they found one backwoods shop in a 3rd-world country using it as a server to supplement their definition.
Because they're trying to make the drive sound a lot better (more special) than it really is. It doesn't matter how many people do it, slapping in a desktop drive into a server doesn't make it a server rated drive.
Because they're trying to make the drive sound a lot better (more special) than it really is. It doesn't matter how many people do it, slapping in a desktop drive into a server doesn't make it a server rated drive.
There is no such definition as "server rated drive" so Apple can say what they want, but they do have validation since they have been using it in their own servers. No one is claiming that this rated as Enterprise grade.
On opposite ends of the spectrum we need to read between the lines of marketing and between the lines of technical specifications, which is just another way of marketing electronics. One technique uses unspecific terms and the other very specific terms, but neither one gives a full picture of a product.
Because they're trying to make the drive sound a lot better (more special) than it really is. It doesn't matter how many people do it, slapping in a desktop drive into a server doesn't make it a server rated drive.
Nothing can make it officially "server-rated" because there IS no such official classification. However, using it in your own servers certainly would make it "server-rated" as far as you're concerned, and that's the only standard of truthfulness you can be held to. If you used that term for it in Time Capsule but wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole for your own servers, then somebody could take you to task.
There is no such definition as "server rated drive" so Apple can say what they want, but they do have validation since they have been using it in their own servers.
At least they're consistent, but it's still just a desktop drive. If the maker of said drives intended them to be used in servers, then the drive maker should be saying so in their literature.
The other part of the problem is that the terminology they use is intended to give the impression that it's an enterprise storage kind of drive, when it's anything but that. That's why I call it weasely. Even if all marketing departments do it to some extent, that doesn't make it right
Also, one more thing I'm confused about. I have four terabytes in my computer, can I buy four time capsules, and set one to back up each drive, or does time machine only work with one capsule? Thanks!
At least they're consistent, but it's still just a desktop drive. If the maker of said drives intended them to be used in servers, then the drive maker should be saying so in their literature.
Sorry for the noob questions, but do I need to have wireless internet to use time capsule as a back up drive? I know I have an Airport card in my Mac Pro, but no wireless router. Will I need to purchase one? If so, what kind is best for this?
Also, one more thing I'm confused about. I have four terabytes in my computer, can I buy four time capsules, and set one to back up each drive, or does time machine only work with one capsule? Thanks!
"Good news, Everybody, Time Capsule is a wireless router"
You don't need wireless, and the Ethernet would be faster if you need to use it on a network. If you don't need the Airport Base Station router part of Time Capsule for your Mac Pro then you'd be better off just adding a HDD to your machine for the TimeMachine backups.Once you put a new drive in a prompt will appear asking you if you want to you use it for your backups.
Sorry for the noob questions, but do I need to have wireless internet to use time capsule as a back up drive? I know I have an Airport card in my Mac Pro, but no wireless router. Will I need to purchase one?!
No, Time Capsule has a built-in wifi router.
EDIT: solipsism beat me to it.
At least they're consistent, but it's still just a desktop drive. If the maker of said drives intended them to be used in servers, then the drive maker should be saying so in their literature.
Doesn't matter much. The Google statistics show MTTF specs mean little and the Carnagie Mellon study of fiber channel and SCSI vs SATA drives didn't see much difference in quality.
You're seriously making a huge mountain out of drive manufacturer's mole hills. Desktop drives are effectively equivlaent to Enterprise drives in terms of reliability. Trusting any single drive backup method is better than nothing but sticking an "enterprise" grade drive in there simply fattens someone else's bottom line for little addtional value. The superior warranty isn't going to help you since you aren't a data center with hot swaps and RAID arrays.
http://www.usenix.org/event/fast07/t...tml/index.html
http://labs.google.com/papers/disk_failures.html
Server Grade, Desktop Grade, Enterprise Grade. BFD. One drive is one drive and all of these drives suffer from infant mortality far higher than their MTTF specs would have you believe.
This is why a lot of folks were hoping for ZFS as the Leopard file system.
Doesn't matter much. The Google statistics show MTTF specs mean little and the Carnagie Mellon study of fiber channel and SCSI vs SATA drives didn't see much difference in quality.
You're seriously making a huge mountain out of drive manufacturer's mole hills. Desktop drives are effectively equivlaent to Enterprise drives in terms of reliability. Trusting any single drive backup method is better than nothing but sticking an "enterprise" grade drive in there simply fattens someone else's bottom line for little addtional value. The superior warranty isn't going to help you since you aren't a data center with hot swaps and RAID arrays.
http://www.usenix.org/event/fast07/t...tml/index.html
http://labs.google.com/papers/disk_failures.html
Server Grade, Desktop Grade, Enterprise Grade. BFD. One drive is one drive and all of these drives suffer from infant mortality far higher than their MTTF specs would have you believe.
This is why a lot of folks were hoping for ZFS as the Leopard file system.
Excellent post!
Doesn't matter much. The Google statistics show MTTF specs mean little and the Carnagie Mellon study of fiber channel and SCSI vs SATA drives didn't see much difference in quality.
You're seriously making a huge mountain out of drive manufacturer's mole hills. Desktop drives are effectively equivlaent to Enterprise drives in terms of reliability.
And Wd/IBM/Hitach Deathstar drives are to be voided at ANY cost. Enterprise my arse. I have a machine running 24/7 and i now swap them routinely after 1 year as they tend to corrupt after 1.5.
So - dunno but 114 years ain't 1.5 years and Goole prooved that as well.
The MTBF might be accurate if you keep your disk in a 100% dust free,13 degrees centigrades server room. But lets face it - whose house/appartment has THAT ? And I doubt that Extreme Makeover - House Edition will come to the rescue either. Bus driver - m-o-v-e t-h-a-t hard disk ? Hmmmm
"Applications...
Networked storage servers"
Hence the term "server grade". So all blame goes to Hitachi and Apple is just an innocent victim of marketing.
Thanks
This sounds obvious, but can anyone confirm that assuming I'm using the drive in time capsule to back up a computer wirelessly with TM, I can still use it for other normal storage purposes both from the same wirelessly connected mac and any other computers on the network?
Thanks
Sure can. It sticks a single Time Machine folder on the root of the HDD. In there are fodlers for each of your backed up Macs. Welcome to AI.
http://www.hitachigst.com/tech/techlib.nsf/techdocs/67A68C59B27368FC862572570080FC70/$file/Deskstar7K1000_010307_final.pdf
"Applications...
Networked storage servers"
Hence the term "server grade". So all blame goes to Hitachi and Apple is just an innocent victim of marketing.
Great - its a DeathStar Disk. For back ups. On a disk running 24/7.
May I just ask one thing - why does anyone else here think that it is widely considered that those disks amrked the end of IBM disks if the disks were that good ?
Honestly ? Did samsung sells its HD division - no they made it - dixit Toshiba - dixit Seagate. Plese any informed user do a Google on Deaskstar Disks and their reliability.
And Apple is never an innocent victim - if you are one of the most profitable and sucessfull computer companies in the world (eat your hat M. Dell) you are never the victim but part of the process/problem.