Don't count on a new form factor for the MBs. Maybe for MBPs as that design has basically been around since the TiBooks of what, '01 or so? I'd expect new units of both to start shipping sometime b/w July (optimistic) and October (conservative and this has been seen in the recent past few years). Regardless, there will always be something newer and SLIGHTLY faster just a few months away from any today you pick. No, it won't be light years ahead, but it'll be a bit better than the last version. So get what works for you today and be as productive and happy as you can...and don't fret about the new stuff down the road. There will ALWAYS be new stuff down the road!
Don't count on a new form factor for the MBs. Maybe for MBPs as that design has basically been around since the TiBooks of what, '01 or so? I'd expect new units of both to start shipping sometime b/w July (optimistic) and October (conservative and this has been seen in the recent past few years). Regardless, there will always be something newer and SLIGHTLY faster just a few months away from any today you pick. No, it won't be light years ahead, but it'll be a bit better than the last version. So get what works for you today and be as productive and happy as you can...and don't fret about the new stuff down the road. There will ALWAYS be new stuff down the road!
that and the current (newest) MBPs are lightning fast, and since they update every so often, by the time you're ready to get a new one they will have already advanced maybe 3 or 4 times.
How come I never see anyone mention the use or option of a better GPU in the MacBook Pro or higher-end MacBooks? Perhaps I missed it on this string. I did not read through all of the posts.
But look, the best GPU you can get in a MBP, which is supposed to be a photo and video editing powerhouse, is the nVidia 8600 GT. Yes, it has 512MB of VRAM, but it only has 32 stream processors and a 128-bit interface. Minimum price for a MBP is $1,999. However, you can get a Gateway P-6831FX with an nVidia 8800GTS (and 3GB of RAM) for $1,349, and it sold for as little as $1,199 a few weeks back. This GPU also has 512MB of RAM but with 64 stream processors and a 256-bit interface. How come Gateway can manage it cost-wise, but Apple cannot???
And what about SLI in MBP? Windows laptops have them. At least move up to the 8700 GT which has the same number of stream processors and 128-bit interface as the 8600 GT but with faster core, shader, and memory clocks and is DX10 compatible.
If Apple does not start providing better GPU's with their next update, I am going to lose even more respect for them. It has been quite clear for a very long time now, that their are mainly out to maximize their profits, and skimping on GPU's, or RAM, or making batteries or systems non-user accessible/upgradeable are prime examples.
Start providing better products sooner at lower prices, Apple. Then, you will REALLY start seeing some market share increases and Windows switchers.
By the way, I still have not made the switch myself other than buying an iMac for my mom. Main reason is the excessive price of MBP's compared to equivalent Windows laptops.
How come I never see anyone mention the use or option of a better GPU in the MacBook Pro or higher-end MacBooks? Perhaps I missed it on this string. I did not read through all of the posts.
But look, the best GPU you can get in a MBP, which is supposed to be a photo and video editing powerhouse, is the nVidia 8600 GT. Yes, it has 512MB of VRAM, but it only has 32 stream processors and a 128-bit interface. Minimum price for a MBP is $1,999. However, you can get a Gateway P-6831FX with an nVidia 8800GTS (and 3GB of RAM) for $1,349, and it sold for as little as $1,199 a few weeks back. This GPU also has 512MB of RAM but with 64 stream processors and a 256-bit interface. How come Gateway can manage it cost-wise, but Apple cannot???
And what about SLI in MBP? Windows laptops have them. At least move up to the 8700 GT which has the same number of stream processors and 128-bit interface as the 8600 GT but with faster core, shader, and memory clocks and is DX10 compatible.
If Apple does not start providing better GPU's with their next update, I am going to lose even more respect for them. It has been quite clear for a very long time now, that their are mainly out to maximize their profits, and skimping on GPU's, or RAM, or making batteries or systems non-user accessible/upgradeable are prime examples.
Start providing better products sooner at lower prices, Apple. Then, you will REALLY start seeing some market share increases and Windows switchers.
By the way, I still have not made the switch myself other than buying an iMac for my mom. Main reason is the excessive price of MBP's compared to equivalent Windows laptops.
My thoughts exactly! I can't understand why Gateway and Dell are able to do this, while Apple can't. We are talking about Apple here - a super-duper company with a R&D and awesome products, ones that connect with the spirit! How is it that the "engineers" over at Dell or Gateway (those same engineers that have their Masters degrees in Marketing) are able to include hardware that's much much better than Apple uses and still charge almost half as much?
I am running an iBook 12" that's 4 years old right now, and if I don't see a price decrease and some decent graphics options in the Mac notebooks by the end of the summer, I'm gonna have to switch "back". GASP
My thoughts exactly! I can't understand why Gateway and Dell are able to do this, while Apple can't. We are talking about Apple here - a super-duper company with a R&D and awesome products, ones that connect with the spirit! How is it that the "engineers" over at Dell or Gateway (those same engineers that have their Masters degrees in Marketing) are able to include hardware that's much much better than Apple uses and still charge almost half as much?
I am running an iBook 12" that's 4 years old right now, and if I don't see a price decrease and some decent graphics options in the Mac notebooks by the end of the summer, I'm gonna have to switch "back". GASP
Apple doesn't make the GPUs. Perhaps as Macs become more mainstream we'll see better offerings for Mac GPUs from ATI and NVIDIA.
You probably aren't going to see a price decrease with Intel's roadmap. What you'll see is performance, features and capacity increases. If that doesn't concern you, which it clearly doesn't running a PPC machine then a 1st generation Mac Intel machine will run rings around your iBook.
What machines are you referring to that cost half as much for the same or better hardware? I've read before and asked that same question but it always goes answered.
Apple doesn't make the GPUs. Perhaps as Macs become more mainstream we'll see better offerings for Mac GPUs from ATI and NVIDIA.
You probably aren't going to see a price decrease with Intel's roadmap. What you'll see is performance, features and capacity increases. If that doesn't concern you, which it clearly doesn't running a PPC machine then a 1st generation Mac Intel machine will run rings around your iBook.
What machines are you referring to that cost half as much for the same or better hardware? I've read before and asked that same question but it always goes answered.
I mentioned it in my original post.
Gateway P-6831FX. On sale recently for $1,199. So, let's compare it to a $2,499 MBP which is more than twice as much GW sale proce and just under with Gateway's usual $1,349 price. Unless you move up to the $2,799 model to get the same 17" screen.
Gateway
Intel C2D 1.67GHz T5450 (Edge: Apple)
3GB PC2-5300 DDR2 memory (Edge; Gateway)
DVD±RW/CD-RW drive with double-layer 8.5GB DVD supports Labelflash direct disc labeling. Same as HP's LightScribe technology (Edge: Gateway)
17" WXGA+ LCD WS display with 1440 x 900 resolution (Edge: Gateway)
250GB HDD (Edge: Gateway)
NVIDIA GeForce Go 8800 GTS graphics with up to 512MB discrete GDDR3 video memory; HDMI: high-def audio (Edge: Gateway)
Apple
Intel C2D 2.4GHz next-gen processor
2GB 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM ($400 extra gets you 4GB???)
DVD±RW/CD-RW drive with double-layer 8.5GB DVD DOES NOT support Labelflash or LightScribe direct disc labeling
15.4" WXGA+ LCD WS display with 1440 x 900 resolution ($300 more buys you the 17")
Gateway P-6831FX. On sale recently for $1,199. So, let's compare it to a $2,499 MBP which is more than twice as much GW sale proce and just under with Gateway's usual $1,349 price. Unless you move up to the $2,799 model to get the same 17" screen.
That is your "ace in the hole" comparison? Pitting an antiquated, bargain basement processor that doesn't even support x86 Virtualization (ITV) and is bested in both speed and/or efficiency to the MBA and Mac Mini to a MBP running Intel's newest, top of the line processor?
That is your "ace in the hole" comparison? Pitting an antiquated, bargain basement processor that doesn't even support x86 Virtualization (ITV) and is bested in both speed and/or efficiency to the MBA and Mac Mini to a MBP running Intel's newest, top of the line processor?
[CENTER]
OH, COME ON!!![/CENTER]
I did not claim the processor was better. It's not bargain basement by the way. The 2000 series (i.e. T2330) is. The point is that other vendors provide superior hardware for less. And it all depends on what you want to do. If you want to game, then the Gateway is superior even with the slower processor due to the extra RAM and better GPU. Besides, Gateway does make laptops with comparable and even superior CPU's. See below. The one I mentioned only because of the extreme price difference.
Apple depends on people's undying loyalty to screw them over on price and maximize their own profits. Remember the iPhone price cut soon after it was released? Why do you think they did not include 3G? So they could maximize their profits with a cheaper chipset. Why do they delete customer complaints about their products from their own message boards? There are many, many issues that could be discussed which do not paint Apple as a very consumer-friendly company. Excessively high pricing is just the most obvious.
Fortunately, some (like the original reply to my post) realize this and are considering whether or not sticking with Apple is worth the extra money. If enough people defect from Apple back to Windows or at least voice their concerns, then perhaps Apple will change.
I would really like to buy a MBP, but I cannot bring myself to do it yet. My current Toshiba laptop is over four years old though so the time is coming soon to buy something new. Will Apple have the product that I want at the price I want later this year? I am hopeful, but I really, really doubt it. So, I will likely go Windows again.
The link below shows some other Gateway models with more advanced processors. The P-171X FX Edition provides you with a 2.4GHz T8300 and a 17" 1920x1200 resolution screen. It's $800 cheaper than Apple's top of the line MBP which you need to purchase to get the same resolution screen. You could buy a brand new Airport Extreme Base Station, 160GB Apple TV, and iPod nano with your savings and have money left over (after taxes) after buying the Gateway.
I did not claim the processor was better. It's not bargain basement by the way. The 2000 series (i.e. T2330) is. The point is that other vendors provide superior hardware for less. And it all depends on what you want to do. If you want to game, then the Gateway is superior even with the slower processor due to the extra RAM and better GPU. Besides, Gateway does make laptops with comparable and even superior CPU's. See below. The one I mentioned only because of the extreme price difference.
Apple depends on people's undying loyalty to screw them over on price and maximize their own profits. Remember the iPhone price cut soon after it was released? Why do you think they did not include 3G? So they could maximize their profits with a cheaper chipset. Why do they delete customer complaints about their products from their own message boards? There are many, many issues that could be discussed which do not paint Apple as a very consumer-friendly company. Excessively high pricing is just the most obvious.
Fortunately, some (like the original reply to my post) realize this and are considering whether or not sticking with Apple is worth the extra money. If enough people defect from Apple back to Windows or at least voice their concerns, then perhaps Apple will change.
I would really like to buy a MBP, but I cannot bring myself to do it yet. My current Toshiba laptop is over four years old though so the time is coming soon to buy something new. Will Apple have the product that I want at the price I want later this year? I am hopeful, but I really, really doubt it. So, I will likely go Windows again.
The link below shows some other Gateway models with more advanced processors. The P-171X FX Edition provides you with a 2.4GHz T8300 and a 17" 1920x1200 resolution screen. It's $800 cheaper than Apple's top of the line MBP which you need to purchase to get the same resolution screen. You could buy a brand new Airport Extreme Base Station, 160GB Apple TV, and iPod nano with your savings and have money left over (after taxes) after buying the Gateway.
That is a much closer comparison, but it still falls short for being a highly comparable. The 17" MBP doesn't even come with that processor. It starts with a 2.5GHz T9300 w/ 6MB L2, which is what the base MBP for $1999 has. Gateway would probably only chargeyou $100-150 for that processor if it was an upgrade option so that it quantifiable in Gateway's favour.
When you look at the weight and dimensions you see why the Hateway machine is so much cheaper. A lot less engineering and cost went into its design.
17-inch MacBook Pro
Height: 1.0 inch
Width: 15.4 inches
Depth: 10.4 inches
Weight: 6.8 pounds
17-inch Gateway P-171X FX
Height: 1.70 inches
Width: 15.75 inches
Depth: 11.75 inches
Weight: 9.2 pounds
It's irrational to say Apple is charging to much because it's not the same as x-machine, when the build quality, engineering and refinements of them are world's apart. but if you don't care about those things then you can plenty of machine from Gateway for a lower price than Apple. If those dimensions, OS, and experience suit your needs then go for it. Personally, 17 inches?and even 15 inches?is too big for me. I prefer the 13" in 16:9 and 12" in 4:3 ratio displays for my notebooks.
That is a much closer comparison, but it still falls short for being a highly comparable. The 17" MBP doesn't even come with that processor. It starts with a 2.5GHz T9300 w/ 6MB L2, which is what the base MBP for $1999 has. Gateway would probably only chargeyou $100-150 for that processor if it was an upgrade option so that it quantifiable in Gateway's favour.
When you look at the weight and dimensions you see why the Hateway machine is so much cheaper. A lot less engineering and cost went into its design.
17-inch MacBook Pro
Height: 1.0 inch
Width: 15.4 inches
Depth: 10.4 inches
Weight: 6.8 pounds
17-inch Gateway P-171X FX
Height: 1.70 inches
Width: 15.75 inches
Depth: 11.75 inches
Weight: 9.2 pounds
It's irrational to say Apple is charging to much because it's not the same as x-machine, when the build quality, engineering and refinements of them are world's apart. but if you don't care about those things then you can plenty of machine from Gateway for a lower price than Apple. If those dimensions, OS, and experience suit your needs then go for it. Personally, 17 inches?and even 15 inches?is too big for me. I prefer the 13" in 16:9 and 12" in 4:3 ratio displays for my notebooks.
You have a good point about the size and weight. However, I do not think that the engineering in that respect should count for $800 extra. Also, the MBP's have had their share of quality issues. They are far from perfect in that respect. And again, the Gateway does have more RAM and a better GPU. The 8800GTS GPU is likely bigger, thus requiring Gateway to design a larger case to accommodate it. Add the optional 2.8GHz Extreme Edition Intel processor, and it's smokin'.
As for size, I agree that 17" screens are quite large, but for someone who works with video, for instance, and requires 1080P resolution, then that is what you need to get. And that 8800GTS GPU will provide better performance than the Apple spec'ed 8600GT. That was my whole point. I just want to see Apple start designing in better GPU's AND reduce prices. Even the two higher-end MacBooks should have at least 128MB of discrete video memory. The high-end MacBook should probably have 256MB. Wouldn't you like better video performance in your 13" form factor??? I think A LOT of people would, and they deserve to get it at a reasonable price.
Gateway P-6831FX. On sale recently for $1,199. So, let's compare it to a $2,499 MBP which is more than twice as much GW sale proce and just under with Gateway's usual $1,349 price. Unless you move up to the $2,799 model to get the same 17" screen.
Gateway
Intel C2D 1.67GHz T5450 (Edge: Apple)
3GB PC2-5300 DDR2 memory (Edge; Gateway)
DVD±RW/CD-RW drive with double-layer 8.5GB DVD supports Labelflash direct disc labeling. Same as HP's LightScribe technology (Edge: Gateway)
17" WXGA+ LCD WS display with 1440 x 900 resolution (Edge: Gateway)
250GB HDD (Edge: Gateway)
NVIDIA GeForce Go 8800 GTS graphics with up to 512MB discrete GDDR3 video memory; HDMI: high-def audio (Edge: Gateway)
Apple
Intel C2D 2.4GHz next-gen processor
2GB 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM ($400 extra gets you 4GB???)
DVD±RW/CD-RW drive with double-layer 8.5GB DVD DOES NOT support Labelflash or LightScribe direct disc labeling
15.4" WXGA+ LCD WS display with 1440 x 900 resolution ($300 more buys you the 17")
250GB Serial ATA Drive @ 5400 rpm
NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT with 512MB of GDDR3 SDRAM
Why do you give the nod to gateway for the HDD when they're the same?
lightscribe= sucks, i bought a drive because it had lightscribe, they are faint depend on the quality of your photo, the disks cost more and i just used memorex labeling software. and takes forever to burn....big waste
I just want to see Apple start designing in better GPU's AND reduce prices. Even the two higher-end MacBooks should have at least 128MB of discrete video memory. The high-end MacBook should probably have 256MB. Wouldn't you like better video performance in your 13" form factor??? I think A LOT of people would, and they deserve to get it at a reasonable price.
I could be wrong, but doesn't Apple have very little say over the GPU? I recall that one of the major GPU manufactures would use a slower processor and/or less RAM for the mac version and tehn sell it at the same price as the Win version, though i can't recall which was which.
As for the MB, I much prefer the integrated graphics as it keeps down costs, heat, size and doesn't tax the battery as much. But I see your point as the $1,999 model is the cheapest for a discrete GPU notebook.
Apple doesn't make the GPUs. Perhaps as Macs become more mainstream we'll see better offerings for Mac GPUs from ATI and NVIDIA.
You probably aren't going to see a price decrease with Intel's roadmap. What you'll see is performance, features and capacity increases. If that doesn't concern you, which it clearly doesn't running a PPC machine then a 1st generation Mac Intel machine will run rings around your iBook.
What machines are you referring to that cost half as much for the same or better hardware? I've read before and asked that same question but it always goes answered.
1. It's not my problem that the Mac isn't "mainstream". It's Apple's. Thus, I don't care - as a consumer (maybe I do as a tech enthusiast) - about what the Mac is not. I want the Mac to be and do what I want it to do. Apple has had record profits for the last few years, in part fueled by increasing Mac sales. If the Mac is not "mainstream" at ~6% marketshare, up 3% over the last 3 years, then I don't know what mainstream is.
What do I want the Mac to do? Well, for starters, I want a dedicated GPU in something that's less than $2000. Poor Dell offers the same GPU as is on the $2000 MBP in a $700 package in the Inspiron 1530 or 1550 or something like that. Granted, it's not as refined or beautiful as the MBP. What do I need this GPU for? 1. Games. 2. Video proc. And this is the whole never-ending-game of Apple vs. Microsoft/PC: Apple needs to go mainstream yet their least expensive 15" notebook - the one that's most popular among PC buyers - is $2000 - an average of $1000 more than a 15" PC notebook. Consumers (read: non-Pros) don't need the featureset of the MBP. They need a MacBook in a 15" form factor. Thus, Apple is preventing itself from going mainstream by having huge gaps in their product line-up.
2. The only reason I'm running a PPC Mac right now is because Apple's current notebook offerings don't offer what I need. I need a 13" with a dedicated GPU. (Say that again!). Apple is nowhere to be found. I was hoping that the recent update would address that. nope. Dell, on the other hand, gives me just what I want with the Inspiron XPS M1330 for about $150-200 less.
3. I find it amazing that after using Macs for 4 years and reading Apple boards, I am still given a recommendation to buy a used Mac because Apple isn't price competitive to my needs . To make it clear: Apple has nothing in their line-up that will suit me right now. The MBP is too big, yet has a dedicated GPU, and the MB is perfect size but has no dedicated GPU. The MBP is about $400 too expensive for what it should be - look at the Dell XPS M1550 (or 30?). It gives me everything the MBP does and comes very close in design and the general aesthetics department.
4. I know that Apple doesn't make GPUs.
P.S: I feel trapped by Apple right now b/c of their limited line-up. I want to play games on my hardware but I can't (obviously) with the iBook and I won't be able to - enjoyably - with the MacBook. I could with the MBP but it is too much - competitively to it's PC competition. Thus,
1. It's not my problem that the Mac isn't "mainstream". It's Apple's. Thus, I don't care - as a consumer (maybe I do as a tech enthusiast) - about what the Mac is not. I want the Mac to be and do what I want it to do. Apple has had record profits for the last few years, in part fueled by increasing Mac sales. If the Mac is not "mainstream" at ~6% marketshare, up 3% over the last 3 years, then I don't know what mainstream is.
...
I really hope I don't come across as a dick as a dick but I felt your post wasn't inflammatory or mindless yammering, but this is your problem. Apple is growing at record speeds and the MacBook is theor top seller and more than likely the fastest selling $1000 machine out there, so they are doing fine with Intel's integrated graphics. I am doing fine with Intel's intergrated graphics. Intel's next integrated graphic will have H.264 (among others) codec decoding built in. I'm not a gamer, so it doesn't affect me, but then again I don't know of any serious PC gamer who uses a Mac for gaming.
I really hope I don't come across as a dick as a dick but I felt your post wasn't inflammatory or mindless yammering, but this is your problem. Apple is growing at record speeds and the MacBook is theor top seller and more than likely the fastest selling $1000 machine out there, so they are doing fine with Intel's integrated graphics. I am doing fine with Intel's intergrated graphics. Intel's next integrated graphic will have H.264 (among others) codec decoding built in. I'm not a gamer, so it doesn't affect me, but then again I don't know of any serious PC gamer who uses a Mac for gaming.
Well here's the thing: it's my problem (as a consumer) to have a need for something that doesn't exist. Yet it's a totally different problem - one of Apple - to not have something to fit my needs when their competition does. This is especially the case when the competition offers a superior product (spec-by-spec) at a better price. Case and point:
You can look at HP and Toshiba and Gateway for similar machine - the biggest "distinguishing" feature being the availability of a dedicated GPU in a 13" notebook package. How it is that Apple doesn't offer this when their competition does - and how it can come across as my problem - is beyond me.
P.S: don't want to come across as a dick either, just as a well-educated consumer.
Comments
Don't count on a new form factor for the MBs. Maybe for MBPs as that design has basically been around since the TiBooks of what, '01 or so? I'd expect new units of both to start shipping sometime b/w July (optimistic) and October (conservative and this has been seen in the recent past few years). Regardless, there will always be something newer and SLIGHTLY faster just a few months away from any today you pick. No, it won't be light years ahead, but it'll be a bit better than the last version. So get what works for you today and be as productive and happy as you can...and don't fret about the new stuff down the road. There will ALWAYS be new stuff down the road!
that and the current (newest) MBPs are lightning fast, and since they update every so often, by the time you're ready to get a new one they will have already advanced maybe 3 or 4 times.
Like maybe if you owned a blu-ray disc and would like want to watch it when you travel this would like let you?
Quoted for Truth.
But look, the best GPU you can get in a MBP, which is supposed to be a photo and video editing powerhouse, is the nVidia 8600 GT. Yes, it has 512MB of VRAM, but it only has 32 stream processors and a 128-bit interface. Minimum price for a MBP is $1,999. However, you can get a Gateway P-6831FX with an nVidia 8800GTS (and 3GB of RAM) for $1,349, and it sold for as little as $1,199 a few weeks back. This GPU also has 512MB of RAM but with 64 stream processors and a 256-bit interface. How come Gateway can manage it cost-wise, but Apple cannot???
And what about SLI in MBP? Windows laptops have them. At least move up to the 8700 GT which has the same number of stream processors and 128-bit interface as the 8600 GT but with faster core, shader, and memory clocks and is DX10 compatible.
If Apple does not start providing better GPU's with their next update, I am going to lose even more respect for them. It has been quite clear for a very long time now, that their are mainly out to maximize their profits, and skimping on GPU's, or RAM, or making batteries or systems non-user accessible/upgradeable are prime examples.
Start providing better products sooner at lower prices, Apple. Then, you will REALLY start seeing some market share increases and Windows switchers.
By the way, I still have not made the switch myself other than buying an iMac for my mom. Main reason is the excessive price of MBP's compared to equivalent Windows laptops.
How come I never see anyone mention the use or option of a better GPU in the MacBook Pro or higher-end MacBooks? Perhaps I missed it on this string. I did not read through all of the posts.
But look, the best GPU you can get in a MBP, which is supposed to be a photo and video editing powerhouse, is the nVidia 8600 GT. Yes, it has 512MB of VRAM, but it only has 32 stream processors and a 128-bit interface. Minimum price for a MBP is $1,999. However, you can get a Gateway P-6831FX with an nVidia 8800GTS (and 3GB of RAM) for $1,349, and it sold for as little as $1,199 a few weeks back. This GPU also has 512MB of RAM but with 64 stream processors and a 256-bit interface. How come Gateway can manage it cost-wise, but Apple cannot???
And what about SLI in MBP? Windows laptops have them. At least move up to the 8700 GT which has the same number of stream processors and 128-bit interface as the 8600 GT but with faster core, shader, and memory clocks and is DX10 compatible.
If Apple does not start providing better GPU's with their next update, I am going to lose even more respect for them. It has been quite clear for a very long time now, that their are mainly out to maximize their profits, and skimping on GPU's, or RAM, or making batteries or systems non-user accessible/upgradeable are prime examples.
Start providing better products sooner at lower prices, Apple. Then, you will REALLY start seeing some market share increases and Windows switchers.
By the way, I still have not made the switch myself other than buying an iMac for my mom. Main reason is the excessive price of MBP's compared to equivalent Windows laptops.
My thoughts exactly! I can't understand why Gateway and Dell are able to do this, while Apple can't. We are talking about Apple here - a super-duper company with a R&D and awesome products, ones that connect with the spirit! How is it that the "engineers" over at Dell or Gateway (those same engineers that have their Masters degrees in Marketing) are able to include hardware that's much much better than Apple uses and still charge almost half as much?
I am running an iBook 12" that's 4 years old right now, and if I don't see a price decrease and some decent graphics options in the Mac notebooks by the end of the summer, I'm gonna have to switch "back". GASP
My thoughts exactly! I can't understand why Gateway and Dell are able to do this, while Apple can't. We are talking about Apple here - a super-duper company with a R&D and awesome products, ones that connect with the spirit! How is it that the "engineers" over at Dell or Gateway (those same engineers that have their Masters degrees in Marketing) are able to include hardware that's much much better than Apple uses and still charge almost half as much?
I am running an iBook 12" that's 4 years old right now, and if I don't see a price decrease and some decent graphics options in the Mac notebooks by the end of the summer, I'm gonna have to switch "back". GASP
Apple doesn't make the GPUs. Perhaps as Macs become more mainstream we'll see better offerings for Mac GPUs from ATI and NVIDIA.
You probably aren't going to see a price decrease with Intel's roadmap. What you'll see is performance, features and capacity increases. If that doesn't concern you, which it clearly doesn't running a PPC machine then a 1st generation Mac Intel machine will run rings around your iBook.
What machines are you referring to that cost half as much for the same or better hardware? I've read before and asked that same question but it always goes answered.
Apple doesn't make the GPUs. Perhaps as Macs become more mainstream we'll see better offerings for Mac GPUs from ATI and NVIDIA.
You probably aren't going to see a price decrease with Intel's roadmap. What you'll see is performance, features and capacity increases. If that doesn't concern you, which it clearly doesn't running a PPC machine then a 1st generation Mac Intel machine will run rings around your iBook.
What machines are you referring to that cost half as much for the same or better hardware? I've read before and asked that same question but it always goes answered.
I mentioned it in my original post.
Gateway P-6831FX. On sale recently for $1,199. So, let's compare it to a $2,499 MBP which is more than twice as much GW sale proce and just under with Gateway's usual $1,349 price. Unless you move up to the $2,799 model to get the same 17" screen.
Gateway
Intel C2D 1.67GHz T5450 (Edge: Apple)
3GB PC2-5300 DDR2 memory (Edge; Gateway)
DVD±RW/CD-RW drive with double-layer 8.5GB DVD supports Labelflash direct disc labeling. Same as HP's LightScribe technology (Edge: Gateway)
17" WXGA+ LCD WS display with 1440 x 900 resolution (Edge: Gateway)
250GB HDD (Edge: Gateway)
NVIDIA GeForce Go 8800 GTS graphics with up to 512MB discrete GDDR3 video memory; HDMI: high-def audio (Edge: Gateway)
Apple
Intel C2D 2.4GHz next-gen processor
2GB 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM ($400 extra gets you 4GB???)
DVD±RW/CD-RW drive with double-layer 8.5GB DVD DOES NOT support Labelflash or LightScribe direct disc labeling
15.4" WXGA+ LCD WS display with 1440 x 900 resolution ($300 more buys you the 17")
250GB Serial ATA Drive @ 5400 rpm
NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT with 512MB of GDDR3 SDRAM
I mentioned it in my original post.
Gateway P-6831FX. On sale recently for $1,199. So, let's compare it to a $2,499 MBP which is more than twice as much GW sale proce and just under with Gateway's usual $1,349 price. Unless you move up to the $2,799 model to get the same 17" screen.
That is your "ace in the hole" comparison? Pitting an antiquated, bargain basement processor that doesn't even support x86 Virtualization (ITV) and is bested in both speed and/or efficiency to the MBA and Mac Mini to a MBP running Intel's newest, top of the line processor?
[CENTER]
OH, COME ON!!![/CENTER]
That is your "ace in the hole" comparison? Pitting an antiquated, bargain basement processor that doesn't even support x86 Virtualization (ITV) and is bested in both speed and/or efficiency to the MBA and Mac Mini to a MBP running Intel's newest, top of the line processor?
[CENTER]
OH, COME ON!!![/CENTER]
I did not claim the processor was better. It's not bargain basement by the way. The 2000 series (i.e. T2330) is. The point is that other vendors provide superior hardware for less. And it all depends on what you want to do. If you want to game, then the Gateway is superior even with the slower processor due to the extra RAM and better GPU. Besides, Gateway does make laptops with comparable and even superior CPU's. See below. The one I mentioned only because of the extreme price difference.
Apple depends on people's undying loyalty to screw them over on price and maximize their own profits. Remember the iPhone price cut soon after it was released? Why do you think they did not include 3G? So they could maximize their profits with a cheaper chipset. Why do they delete customer complaints about their products from their own message boards? There are many, many issues that could be discussed which do not paint Apple as a very consumer-friendly company. Excessively high pricing is just the most obvious.
Fortunately, some (like the original reply to my post) realize this and are considering whether or not sticking with Apple is worth the extra money. If enough people defect from Apple back to Windows or at least voice their concerns, then perhaps Apple will change.
I would really like to buy a MBP, but I cannot bring myself to do it yet. My current Toshiba laptop is over four years old though so the time is coming soon to buy something new. Will Apple have the product that I want at the price I want later this year? I am hopeful, but I really, really doubt it. So, I will likely go Windows again.
The link below shows some other Gateway models with more advanced processors. The P-171X FX Edition provides you with a 2.4GHz T8300 and a 17" 1920x1200 resolution screen. It's $800 cheaper than Apple's top of the line MBP which you need to purchase to get the same resolution screen. You could buy a brand new Airport Extreme Base Station, 160GB Apple TV, and iPod nano with your savings and have money left over (after taxes) after buying the Gateway.
http://www.gateway.com/systems/series/529598006.php
I did not claim the processor was better. It's not bargain basement by the way. The 2000 series (i.e. T2330) is. The point is that other vendors provide superior hardware for less. And it all depends on what you want to do. If you want to game, then the Gateway is superior even with the slower processor due to the extra RAM and better GPU. Besides, Gateway does make laptops with comparable and even superior CPU's. See below. The one I mentioned only because of the extreme price difference.
Apple depends on people's undying loyalty to screw them over on price and maximize their own profits. Remember the iPhone price cut soon after it was released? Why do you think they did not include 3G? So they could maximize their profits with a cheaper chipset. Why do they delete customer complaints about their products from their own message boards? There are many, many issues that could be discussed which do not paint Apple as a very consumer-friendly company. Excessively high pricing is just the most obvious.
Fortunately, some (like the original reply to my post) realize this and are considering whether or not sticking with Apple is worth the extra money. If enough people defect from Apple back to Windows or at least voice their concerns, then perhaps Apple will change.
I would really like to buy a MBP, but I cannot bring myself to do it yet. My current Toshiba laptop is over four years old though so the time is coming soon to buy something new. Will Apple have the product that I want at the price I want later this year? I am hopeful, but I really, really doubt it. So, I will likely go Windows again.
The link below shows some other Gateway models with more advanced processors. The P-171X FX Edition provides you with a 2.4GHz T8300 and a 17" 1920x1200 resolution screen. It's $800 cheaper than Apple's top of the line MBP which you need to purchase to get the same resolution screen. You could buy a brand new Airport Extreme Base Station, 160GB Apple TV, and iPod nano with your savings and have money left over (after taxes) after buying the Gateway.
http://www.gateway.com/systems/series/529598006.php
That is a much closer comparison, but it still falls short for being a highly comparable. The 17" MBP doesn't even come with that processor. It starts with a 2.5GHz T9300 w/ 6MB L2, which is what the base MBP for $1999 has. Gateway would probably only chargeyou $100-150 for that processor if it was an upgrade option so that it quantifiable in Gateway's favour.
When you look at the weight and dimensions you see why the Hateway machine is so much cheaper. A lot less engineering and cost went into its design.It's irrational to say Apple is charging to much because it's not the same as x-machine, when the build quality, engineering and refinements of them are world's apart. but if you don't care about those things then you can plenty of machine from Gateway for a lower price than Apple. If those dimensions, OS, and experience suit your needs then go for it. Personally, 17 inches?and even 15 inches?is too big for me. I prefer the 13" in 16:9 and 12" in 4:3 ratio displays for my notebooks.
That is a much closer comparison, but it still falls short for being a highly comparable. The 17" MBP doesn't even come with that processor. It starts with a 2.5GHz T9300 w/ 6MB L2, which is what the base MBP for $1999 has. Gateway would probably only chargeyou $100-150 for that processor if it was an upgrade option so that it quantifiable in Gateway's favour.
When you look at the weight and dimensions you see why the Hateway machine is so much cheaper. A lot less engineering and cost went into its design.It's irrational to say Apple is charging to much because it's not the same as x-machine, when the build quality, engineering and refinements of them are world's apart. but if you don't care about those things then you can plenty of machine from Gateway for a lower price than Apple. If those dimensions, OS, and experience suit your needs then go for it. Personally, 17 inches?and even 15 inches?is too big for me. I prefer the 13" in 16:9 and 12" in 4:3 ratio displays for my notebooks.
You have a good point about the size and weight. However, I do not think that the engineering in that respect should count for $800 extra. Also, the MBP's have had their share of quality issues. They are far from perfect in that respect. And again, the Gateway does have more RAM and a better GPU. The 8800GTS GPU is likely bigger, thus requiring Gateway to design a larger case to accommodate it. Add the optional 2.8GHz Extreme Edition Intel processor, and it's smokin'.
As for size, I agree that 17" screens are quite large, but for someone who works with video, for instance, and requires 1080P resolution, then that is what you need to get. And that 8800GTS GPU will provide better performance than the Apple spec'ed 8600GT. That was my whole point. I just want to see Apple start designing in better GPU's AND reduce prices. Even the two higher-end MacBooks should have at least 128MB of discrete video memory. The high-end MacBook should probably have 256MB. Wouldn't you like better video performance in your 13" form factor??? I think A LOT of people would, and they deserve to get it at a reasonable price.
I mentioned it in my original post.
Gateway P-6831FX. On sale recently for $1,199. So, let's compare it to a $2,499 MBP which is more than twice as much GW sale proce and just under with Gateway's usual $1,349 price. Unless you move up to the $2,799 model to get the same 17" screen.
Gateway
Intel C2D 1.67GHz T5450 (Edge: Apple)
3GB PC2-5300 DDR2 memory (Edge; Gateway)
DVD±RW/CD-RW drive with double-layer 8.5GB DVD supports Labelflash direct disc labeling. Same as HP's LightScribe technology (Edge: Gateway)
17" WXGA+ LCD WS display with 1440 x 900 resolution (Edge: Gateway)
250GB HDD (Edge: Gateway)
NVIDIA GeForce Go 8800 GTS graphics with up to 512MB discrete GDDR3 video memory; HDMI: high-def audio (Edge: Gateway)
Apple
Intel C2D 2.4GHz next-gen processor
2GB 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM ($400 extra gets you 4GB???)
DVD±RW/CD-RW drive with double-layer 8.5GB DVD DOES NOT support Labelflash or LightScribe direct disc labeling
15.4" WXGA+ LCD WS display with 1440 x 900 resolution ($300 more buys you the 17")
250GB Serial ATA Drive @ 5400 rpm
NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT with 512MB of GDDR3 SDRAM
Why do you give the nod to gateway for the HDD when they're the same?
Why do you give the nod to gateway for the HDD when they're the same?
Happy fingers.
Happy fingers.
Ah, completely understandable then
lightscribe +gateway= edge apple
I just want to see Apple start designing in better GPU's AND reduce prices. Even the two higher-end MacBooks should have at least 128MB of discrete video memory. The high-end MacBook should probably have 256MB. Wouldn't you like better video performance in your 13" form factor??? I think A LOT of people would, and they deserve to get it at a reasonable price.
I could be wrong, but doesn't Apple have very little say over the GPU? I recall that one of the major GPU manufactures would use a slower processor and/or less RAM for the mac version and tehn sell it at the same price as the Win version, though i can't recall which was which.
As for the MB, I much prefer the integrated graphics as it keeps down costs, heat, size and doesn't tax the battery as much. But I see your point as the $1,999 model is the cheapest for a discrete GPU notebook.
Apple doesn't make the GPUs. Perhaps as Macs become more mainstream we'll see better offerings for Mac GPUs from ATI and NVIDIA.
You probably aren't going to see a price decrease with Intel's roadmap. What you'll see is performance, features and capacity increases. If that doesn't concern you, which it clearly doesn't running a PPC machine then a 1st generation Mac Intel machine will run rings around your iBook.
What machines are you referring to that cost half as much for the same or better hardware? I've read before and asked that same question but it always goes answered.
1. It's not my problem that the Mac isn't "mainstream". It's Apple's. Thus, I don't care - as a consumer (maybe I do as a tech enthusiast) - about what the Mac is not. I want the Mac to be and do what I want it to do. Apple has had record profits for the last few years, in part fueled by increasing Mac sales. If the Mac is not "mainstream" at ~6% marketshare, up 3% over the last 3 years, then I don't know what mainstream is.
What do I want the Mac to do? Well, for starters, I want a dedicated GPU in something that's less than $2000. Poor Dell offers the same GPU as is on the $2000 MBP in a $700 package in the Inspiron 1530 or 1550 or something like that. Granted, it's not as refined or beautiful as the MBP. What do I need this GPU for? 1. Games. 2. Video proc. And this is the whole never-ending-game of Apple vs. Microsoft/PC: Apple needs to go mainstream yet their least expensive 15" notebook - the one that's most popular among PC buyers - is $2000 - an average of $1000 more than a 15" PC notebook. Consumers (read: non-Pros) don't need the featureset of the MBP. They need a MacBook in a 15" form factor. Thus, Apple is preventing itself from going mainstream by having huge gaps in their product line-up.
2. The only reason I'm running a PPC Mac right now is because Apple's current notebook offerings don't offer what I need. I need a 13" with a dedicated GPU. (Say that again!). Apple is nowhere to be found. I was hoping that the recent update would address that. nope. Dell, on the other hand, gives me just what I want with the Inspiron XPS M1330 for about $150-200 less.
3. I find it amazing that after using Macs for 4 years and reading Apple boards, I am still given a recommendation to buy a used Mac because Apple isn't price competitive to my needs . To make it clear: Apple has nothing in their line-up that will suit me right now. The MBP is too big, yet has a dedicated GPU, and the MB is perfect size but has no dedicated GPU. The MBP is about $400 too expensive for what it should be - look at the Dell XPS M1550 (or 30?). It gives me everything the MBP does and comes very close in design and the general aesthetics department.
4. I know that Apple doesn't make GPUs.
P.S: I feel trapped by Apple right now b/c of their limited line-up. I want to play games on my hardware but I can't (obviously) with the iBook and I won't be able to - enjoyably - with the MacBook. I could with the MBP but it is too much - competitively to it's PC competition. Thus,
1. It's not my problem that the Mac isn't "mainstream". It's Apple's. Thus, I don't care - as a consumer (maybe I do as a tech enthusiast) - about what the Mac is not. I want the Mac to be and do what I want it to do. Apple has had record profits for the last few years, in part fueled by increasing Mac sales. If the Mac is not "mainstream" at ~6% marketshare, up 3% over the last 3 years, then I don't know what mainstream is.
...
I really hope I don't come across as a dick as a dick but I felt your post wasn't inflammatory or mindless yammering, but this is your problem. Apple is growing at record speeds and the MacBook is theor top seller and more than likely the fastest selling $1000 machine out there, so they are doing fine with Intel's integrated graphics. I am doing fine with Intel's intergrated graphics. Intel's next integrated graphic will have H.264 (among others) codec decoding built in. I'm not a gamer, so it doesn't affect me, but then again I don't know of any serious PC gamer who uses a Mac for gaming.
I really hope I don't come across as a dick as a dick but I felt your post wasn't inflammatory or mindless yammering, but this is your problem. Apple is growing at record speeds and the MacBook is theor top seller and more than likely the fastest selling $1000 machine out there, so they are doing fine with Intel's integrated graphics. I am doing fine with Intel's intergrated graphics. Intel's next integrated graphic will have H.264 (among others) codec decoding built in. I'm not a gamer, so it doesn't affect me, but then again I don't know of any serious PC gamer who uses a Mac for gaming.
Well here's the thing: it's my problem (as a consumer) to have a need for something that doesn't exist. Yet it's a totally different problem - one of Apple - to not have something to fit my needs when their competition does. This is especially the case when the competition offers a superior product (spec-by-spec) at a better price. Case and point:
Dell XPS specs (Dell's site)
You can look at HP and Toshiba and Gateway for similar machine - the biggest "distinguishing" feature being the availability of a dedicated GPU in a 13" notebook package. How it is that Apple doesn't offer this when their competition does - and how it can come across as my problem - is beyond me.
P.S: don't want to come across as a dick either, just as a well-educated consumer.