Steve Jobs pans Flash on the iPhone

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  • Reply 61 of 160
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,870member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H


    The iPhone's processor runs at 600 MHz and has 1 GiB of RAM.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by alvinguzman View Post


    If you use 'SysInfo' on jailbroken phones you can see that the following stats:



    Phys. Memory 116 MB

    CPU 412 mhz

    Bus 103.00 mhz



    Thanks for the heads-up, my bad on the iPhone CPU and RAM specs. I was going by my recollection of this article abstract, which has either been modified since I read it (512 MB changed to 512 Mb, to make a total of 128 MiB RAM, which would tally with your reported 116 MiB assuming 12 MiB is reserved for alternative uses), or my recollection of said article was incorrect (although, I distinctly remember thinking at the time "the iPhone has 1 GiB of RAM? Holy Cow!").



    Also, I believe that the CPU is capable of clocking up to 600 MHz but goes slower to conserve battery life.



    Anyway, the overall story isn't changed too much by my erroneous overstating of the iPhone's capabilities. I'm confident that there's enough bloat in Flash that could be optimised out such that the full version would run happily on the iPhone.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mrjoec123 View Post


    It doesn't really matter if Adobe goes about changing the Flash plug. Streamlining it, etc. If the majority of pre-existing Flash content isn't updated to run on it, it won't work on the iPhone anyway.



    I'm not talking about streamlining the standard so that Flash animations, apps etc. have to be re-written. I'm talking about Adobe streamlining the Flash runtime so that it does not leak memory all over the place and chew up CPU cycles for no reason.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by allblue View Post


    Much as I respect your effort, I'm not sure your sig is quite right. 'It has' becomes the possessive pronoun spelt 'its' i.e 'belonging to it' doesn't it?



    No. You are confused. S10 provided a good example for you:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by S10 View Post


    It has been raining



    This does not mean "the rain belongs to it", and can correctly be contracted as: "it's been raining".
  • Reply 62 of 160
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Yes flash can work on the iPhone. That is not the issue. There are two issues One issue is about the amount of system resources flash uses. On a device that needs to use its resources efficiently. Adobe could have remedied this by now but has not.



    The other issue is about Apple supporting open web standards. Flash is not an open web standard. Quicktime uses open standards but Quicktime is not required to use open standards.
  • Reply 63 of 160
    ros3ntanros3ntan Posts: 201member
    i have to say, this is a very good article. It makes me think twice about wanting flash on iphone. ThX
  • Reply 64 of 160
    festefeste Posts: 17member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


    ... and let's not forget the complications that arise when names ending with 's' get possessive and plural possessive... I never remember how to do this ... is it 'Jobs' new black shirt' and 'Jobs's new black shirts'? Or am I totally lost here? What about the entire Jobs family? 'All the Jobs's new black shirts'. Is that right? If you tell me I shan't get it wrong again. Or is that sha'n't? \



    For a single individual whose name ends in s, the style can vary as long as it's consistent. My favorite way of deciding is to remember that the added "s" after the apostrophe is *always* pronounced. So, if you say "Jobs shirt," you spell it "Jobs' shirt." If you say "Jobsez shirt," you spell it "Jobs's shirt."



    My company's in-house style is to add the s (Jobs's), UNLESS the name is one of the standard Greek or biblical exceptions ("Moses' ark" "Socrates' hemlock" "Jesus' name." etc.) Fun stuff.



    Plural possessives always end in the apostrope. "All the Jobses' shirts" "All the Smiths' shirts." etc. "All the Jobs's shirts" is definitely wrong. (Sorry.)
  • Reply 65 of 160
    zanshinzanshin Posts: 350member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Feste View Post


    For a single individual whose name ends in s, the style can vary as long as it's consistent. My favorite way of deciding is to remember that the added "s" after the apostrophe is *always* pronounced. So, if you say "Jobs shirt," you spell it "Jobs' shirt." If you say "Jobsez shirt," you spell it "Jobs's shirt."



    My company's in-house style is to add the s (Jobs's), UNLESS the name is one of the standard Greek or biblical exceptions ("Moses' ark" "Socrates' hemlock" "Jesus' name." etc.) Fun stuff.



    Plural possessives always end in the apostrope. "All the Jobses' shirts" "All the Smiths' shirts." etc. "All the Jobs's shirts" is definitely wrong. (Sorry.)



    Actually, good writing (as opposed to merely "correct" writing) would suggest writing it as "the shirts belonging to Steve Jobs."



  • Reply 66 of 160
    monstrositymonstrosity Posts: 2,234member
    you should find another pastime than correcting people's spelling mistakes. no offense, but come on! it's a mac forum not an english lesson.



    i could tell u many things you have no clue about, but they have nothing to do with the mac so i wont bore you or anyone else.



    Just got back from india and I'm feeling incredibly sick so my apologies if i come across as moody. But the literate elite have always got on my tits.
  • Reply 67 of 160
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by death_dealer View Post


    The author is misinformed or misleading his readers, and Steve Jobs may not be stupid, but he is lying through his teeth about Adobe Flash Player.



    If anyone does even a few minutes of research, they would find a host of ARM devices that are running full desktop implementations of Flash just fine, and with a touchscreen. The Archos 605 Wifi is just one example, the Chumby is another. Archos is running full desktop player version 7 on their device and Chumby runs Flash Lite. Both devices have touchscreens, slower processors, and less RAM. But somehow they can MAGICALLY play back Flash animations smoothly. The Archos can view YouTube, MySpace and other Flash sites without problem and neither Adobe or Archos had to jump through technical hoops to make this work. The player isn't "too bloated", or a "cpu and memory hog" like many misonformed people seem to think...it runs perfectly smooth on these devices. You can define all the "standards" you want, but the fact is, a huge portion of the web is now based on Flash and web developers aren't running for AJAX or any of the other alternatives any time soon....



    So what is Apple's problem with using Flash on iPhone?



    The REAL reason that Flash isn't on iPhone is because Apple wants to control the application stack on the iPhone....it has nothing to do with the bullcrap reasons that Steve Jobs or the author give.





    Lying?



    Really?



    Any of those named pushing a cell signal with their battery?



    Stop lying to us.
  • Reply 68 of 160
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    This is not necessarily true.



    Adobe Flash, like most modern desktop software, is a horribly bloated, convoluted, memory-leaking, CPU-hogging piece of crap.



    I seem to recall having a 300 MHz G3 with 192 MiB of RAM (in 1999) that ran Macromedia Flash just fine. The iPhone's processor runs at 600 MHz and has 1 GiB of RAM.



    What exactly has been added to flash since 1999, functionality wise? The only significant thing I can think of is H.264 support, and the iPhone is clearly capable of handling H.264.



    So actually, Adobe really should focus on streamlining and optimising Flash. It is possible to make full-blooded Flash work on the iPhone, they'd just have to make the underlying architecture "not shit (TM)". Of course, this would benefit desktop users as well as iPhone users. I guess the problem is that Adobe would have to hire decent software programmers, and it seems like there's probably only 3 in the entire world.



    You're oversimplifying. The problem goes beyond waste management.
  • Reply 69 of 160
    aderutteraderutter Posts: 604member
    >Any of those named pushing a cell signal with their battery?

    Well Nokia are.



    flashlite 3 is flash8 / as2 (if you try publishing flashlite3 content from cs3 and choose "info" it tells you so).



    nokia n95-2 runs flashlite 3 with 16mb of ram available to the player - so why can't iphone?



    this means flashlite3 applications that run from a mobile phone and download/play/stream videos and audio are easily doable (I know because I just built one).



    I don't particularly want full latest flash in safari on iphone - but I do at least expect adobe' latest mobile flash - flashlite 3 - on iphone - where my finger is the mouse equivalent - before I buy one.



    ade.
  • Reply 70 of 160
    lantznlantzn Posts: 240member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by <2cents View Post


    Screw Flash. In fact, can someone recommend a good way to disable Flash in Safari?



    Computer/Library/Internet Plug-ins/Remove the Flash named plug-ins or put them in the "Disabled Plug-ins" folder
  • Reply 71 of 160
    minderbinderminderbinder Posts: 1,703member
    If I can't watch Homestar Runner, I'm not getting the Full Internet Experience (TM).



    Sure, quicktime is better for video...but what is the substitute for web animation, particularly interactive stuff? I'll admit I know practically nothing about the subject, is there an open standards thing that can do animation with interaction at the same level as flash?



    Personally, I'm skeptical that flash is inherently unusable on low power devices, especially since people have pointed out that other mobile units are able to do it.
  • Reply 72 of 160
    abster2coreabster2core Posts: 2,501member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Feste View Post


    For a single individual whose name ends in s, the style can vary as long as it's consistent. My favorite way of deciding is to remember that the added "s" after the apostrophe is *always* pronounced. So, if you say "Jobs shirt," you spell it "Jobs' shirt." If you say "Jobsez shirt," you spell it "Jobs's shirt."



    My company's in-house style is to add the s (Jobs's), UNLESS the name is one of the standard Greek or biblical exceptions ("Moses' ark" "Socrates' hemlock" "Jesus' name." etc.) Fun stuff.



    Plural possessives always end in the apostrope. "All the Jobses' shirts" "All the Smiths' shirts." etc. "All the Jobs's shirts" is definitely wrong. (Sorry.)



    Actually, your company's in-house style for proper names and traditional exceptions is as ruled in "The Chicago Manual of Style," a style guide for American English published by the University of Chicago Press. Following this manual (its a big one), one can't go wrong. Certainly, no editor, author or copy writer would argue its rulings.
  • Reply 73 of 160
    abster2coreabster2core Posts: 2,501member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by death_dealer View Post


    The author is misinformed or misleading his readers, and Steve Jobs may not be stupid, but he is lying through his teeth about Adobe Flash Player.



    Let's see. This article written by Prince McLean, aka Daniel Eran Dilger, or your flash in the pan counter? Until you credential yourself and/or backup your contentions, my leaning is towards the former.



    Sorry, but I also take exception to an unsupported claim of "lying."
  • Reply 74 of 160
    mjtomlinmjtomlin Posts: 2,673member
    Uh, when is it exactly up to Apple to ship a proprietary plug-in from another developer? There's a lot of licensing issues. Adobe is the only company that can release a Flash plug-in for a browser. Given the fact that the iPhone (up to this point) has been closed to third-party development. There's no way Adobe could even build a version of Flash for Mobile OS X/Safari.



    Secondly, Apple has made it clear that they support open standards. Some of these "Apple wants to control everything" comments are just ludicrous. It seems to me that they're attempting to push web standards. One of the most effective ways to do that is to remove the use of any proprietary technology. Neither Flash nor Java are open standards. HTML, JavaScript, CSS, H264, these are open. Also I argue that any mobile device that uses some form of "Java Lite" or "Flash Lite" are also NOT the so-called "real" internet as neither of those implementations are capable of running applications targeted at the full desktop versions. So really, what's the point?
  • Reply 75 of 160
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post


    Let's see. This article written by Prince McLean, aka Daniel Eran Dilger, or your flash in the pan counter? Until you credential yourself and/or backup your contentions, my leaning is to the former.



    Sorry, but I also take exception to an unsupported claim of "lying."



    That word is used constantly by people who know nothing, and love to do whatever they can to discredit someone is in a powerful position.



    I remember arguing with someone on another site about the 3 GHz problem, years ago.



    Even though he finally admitted that Jobs would have been given word from IBM that 3 GHz would be available by the time stated, this guy insisted that when someone says something that turns out, through no fault of their own, to be wrong, he lied.



    There is just no logic to what some people say if they WANT to believe it. It's making this guy happy to think that Jobs has lied, so he will continue to think it.
  • Reply 76 of 160
    jhaymanjhayman Posts: 5member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post


    If I can't watch Homestar Runner, I'm not getting the Full Internet Experience (TM).



    Sure, quicktime is better for video...but what is the substitute for web animation, particularly interactive stuff? I'll admit I know practically nothing about the subject, is there an open standards thing that can do animation with interaction at the same level as flash?



    SVG is an open standard for scalable vector graphics with animation and interaction. It has about the same feature setas Flash. It doesn't, however, have nearly the same reach in terms of development tools or browser plugins. (Firefox and Safari support SVG - as long as it doesn't include animations or interactivity. Adobe used to have a plug-in, but they've stopped supporting it).



    There is a proper subset of SVG defined specifically for mobile devices.
  • Reply 77 of 160
    stevetimstevetim Posts: 482member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    What's with the modern obsession of putting an apostrophe before any letter "s" that appears at the end of a word? The man's name is "Jobs".



    Glad to see my type has brought so much enjoyment
  • Reply 78 of 160
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Booga View Post


    Although Flash ads are probably the most common flash I see on a daily basis, the only ones I ever interact with are the games on Facebook. I always have a few Scrabulous games going, and not being able to play on my iPod Touch is annoying. I understand there's a more official Scrabble game coming out for the iPhone/Touch, but if it doesn't play against Scrabulous users it's close to useless for me.



    Scrabulous is the only reason I'd want Flash on Mobile OS X, but for a slowly rendered pages and fast drain of the battery it isn't worth it. Perhaps they will make a non-Flash version if they can get past this lawsuit.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    What's with the modern obsession of putting an apostrophe before any letter "s" that appears at the end of a word? The man's name is "Jobs".



    You are officially the apostrophe Nazi. I don't recall reading any other petepeeves from you other than the apostrophe.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by libmanj View Post


    When it all comes down to it, the iPhone does not provide the "full internet" as promised, and what keeps it from doing so is the absence of Flash.



    So then the iPhone should offer every plugin to be considered full? How about IE on the iPhone since most pages are still designed to render them best. Oh, and lets not forget adding ActiveX to that list of needs to make MobileSafari a "full internet" browser.
  • Reply 79 of 160
    minderbinderminderbinder Posts: 1,703member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jhayman View Post


    SVG is an open standard for scalable vector graphics with animation and interaction. It has about the same feature setas Flash. It doesn't, however, have nearly the same reach in terms of development tools or browser plugins. (Firefox and Safari support SVG - as long as it doesn't include animations or interactivity. Adobe used to have a plug-in, but they've stopped supporting it).



    There is a proper subset of SVG defined specifically for mobile devices.



    So it sounds like that's not a real substitute, is there anything open standards and cross-platform that can handle animation and interactive stuff like flash can?
  • Reply 80 of 160
    I have MenuMeters in my menu bar, so I can watch my CPU going crazy trying to load some of these Flash-heavy web pages. I have plenty of time to watch it, too. Explain to me again why anybody would want this on a mobile device that they would like to use for more than two minutes on a charge?
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