Steve Jobs pans Flash on the iPhone

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  • Reply 121 of 160
    physguyphysguy Posts: 920member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DjacK View Post


    Disclaimer: I like Asynchronous JavaScript and XML applications just fine, so don't think I'm hating on you dhtml folks specifically. Ajax is cool and credit should always be given where credit is deserved.





    Why do you morons think that Microsoft has even launched Silverlight and Apple is specifically trying to downplay the importance of Flash?



    OBVIOUSLY BECAUSE IT?S AWESOME AND IT?S NOT THEIRS!!!



    -David H.



    Of course because it's not theirs but not because its AWESOME. Substitute POPULAR for AWESOME and you'd be closer - those are two very different things as evidenced by MS Windows and Office.



    But even within the 'because it's not theirs' you need to look at the motivations. In MS's case its clear that they want to replace one proprietary technology with another, that they control. They are trying to do this with PDF as well. Business as usual. In Apple's case they are trying to promote open standards over proprietary. This is the right direction to go. If Adobe wants to do with Flash what they have done with PDF and open it up to the same degree as PDF so other can solve some of its problems and adapt it as needed then I would bet Apple would work with OpenFLASH it the same as they have adopted PDF.
  • Reply 122 of 160
    Not only is flash extremely processor intensive, I would bet they are having issues with the scaling Safari uses.



    Pinching and zooming on something that is pegging the processor is probably not possible yet. Maybe when the next iPhone gets an ARM A8/A9 Cortex chip.



    Also, for people comparing the iPhone 600mhz processor to a G3 or G4 600mhz processor... they aren't comparable. The chips in cellphones can only process stuff in order and programs with tons of branching code will run much much slower than on an out of order desktop class processor.



    The A9 Cortex will bring that power to our handhelds but I wouldn't expect it till the end of the year at least.
  • Reply 123 of 160
    abster2coreabster2core Posts: 2,501member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DjacK View Post


    I've been waiting for an article like this to turn up to give us all a better view of the status of Flash support on the iPhone, info which has as of late been obscure at best. Just so you know, I have a CS degree and have been developing in the Flash environment for a number of years. I was pretty disappointed to learn of the lack of Flash support on the iPhone when it was first released, although I initially figured that it had more to do with QuickTime being a direct competitor than architectural limitations. Now that I actually own an iPhone, I really wish that this problem would be resolved.



    Having said all the you did Dave, would you accept that the lack of Flash on the iPhone up to now, is reasoned as explained in the AppleInsider article?
  • Reply 124 of 160
    djackdjack Posts: 7member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post


    Having said all the you did Dave, would you accept that the lack of Flash on the iPhone up to now, is reasoned as explained in the AppleInsider article?



    Not entirely, although architectural limitations are surely an actual problem. From the way Jobs is positioning himself, trying to advise developers to move away from using the Flash tool entirely, I think it is pretty apparent that he is trying dictate the evolution of the internet to fit his agenda. The problem though is that i don't think that his iphone is the end all mobile internet device, although it seems to hold that title right now. Mobile devices are going to continually get more and more powerful, so architectural limitations are not going to be a lasting issue. I agree that there's plenty of Flash content out there that is fat and slow, but this is an argument against poor design rather than one against the tool itself.



    To say that the future of the internet should be or will be confined to antiquated standards that are primary driven by text and static images is just plain near-sighted. The examples of real-time 3D rendering in Flash that I gave earlier are a much more accurate vision of the future to me. Users are not going to just settle for text and images when there is so much more capability available. Web based software is already taking a foot-hold, and when you have things as powerful as Flash, you will most likely see a migration from desktop based apps to fully online solutions. In fact you are already seeing this with Flash in terms of online desktops/OSes, where you basically can replace the need for a local operating system entirely. When the browser breaks away from just rendering html content to actually rendering all forms of media content as it does with Flash, and you couple this with an extremely powerful programming language such as Actionscript, the capabilities of the internet start to move closer and closer to that of an operating system on a local machine.



    -David H.
  • Reply 125 of 160
    stevetimstevetim Posts: 482member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    Flash is not the Internet!



    Flash is the internet now ... like it or not. I prefer designing HTML/CSS, but 100% and I mean 100% (15 sites in the past two months) have moved to predominately flash website to get the cool interactivity you just can't get with conventional HTML programming.
  • Reply 126 of 160
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DjacK View Post


    For all of the complete douche-bags on this thread who want to claim Flash should be killed because of your irritation from Flash ads; Shut Up You Uninformed Bitches!

    Why do you morons think that Microsoft has even launched Silverlight and Apple is specifically trying to downplay the importance of Flash?



    David,

    Your first post states many good points. It is very clear and well thought out, and you seem to be well versed in the subject matter. However, the name calling is the one and only rule AI enforces, but more importantly it hurts the flow and overall effectiveness of your reply. I look forward to reading more of your insights after the SDK is released. Welcome to AI.
  • Reply 127 of 160
    stevetimstevetim Posts: 482member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DjacK View Post


    Not entirely, although architectural limitations are surely an actual problem. From the way Jobs is positioning himself, trying to advise developers to move away from using the Flash tool entirely, I think it is pretty apparent that he is trying dictate the evolution of the internet to fit his agenda. The problem though is that i don't think that his iphone is the end all mobile internet device, although it seems to hold that title right now. Mobile devices are going to continually get more and more powerful, so architectural limitations are not going to be a lasting issue. I agree that there's plenty of Flash content out there that is fat and slow, but this is an argument against poor design rather than one against the tool itself.



    To say that the future of the internet should be or will be confined to antiquated standards that are primary driven by text and static images is just plain near-sighted. The examples of real-time 3D rendering in Flash that I gave earlier are a much more accurate vision of the future to me. Users are not going to just settle for text and images when there is so much more capability available. Web based software is already taking a foot-hold, and when you have things as powerful as Flash, you will most likely see a migration from desktop based apps to fully online solutions. In fact you are already seeing this with Flash in terms of online desktops/OSes, where you basically can replace the need for a local operating system entirely. When the browser breaks away from just rendering html content to actually rendering all forms of media content as it does with Flash, and you couple this with an extremely powerful programming language such as Actionscript, the capabilities of the internet start to move closer and closer to that of an operating system on a local machine.



    -David H.



    Agree totally ... and the only reason flash is not on even more websites is the problem that Google/Yahoo etc have with flash movie keywords. Complete flash sites do not show up as well with keywords on google, but the time is coming and then it is over ... flash will be on virtually every website. When I design website i ask customer ... Do you want a really, really cool website that does not show up on search terms for google, or do you want a "cool" website that will show up with search terms. The former I make a one page website linking to 100's of flash movies ... the latter is the good old fashioned HTML website that is "salt and peppered" with flash.



    And by the way I can make a HTML 2.0 site linking to animated gifs take 3 days to draw ... so the flash is evil because of the ads argument given my many just don't wash.
  • Reply 128 of 160
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DjacK View Post


    Not entirely, although architectural limitations are surely an actual problem. From the way Jobs is positioning himself, trying to advise developers to move away from using the Flash tool entirely, I think it is pretty apparent that he is trying dictate the evolution of the internet to fit his agenda. The problem though is that i don't think that his iphone is the end all mobile internet device, although it seems to hold that title right now. Mobile devices are going to continually get more and more powerful, so architectural limitations are not going to be a lasting issue. I agree that there's plenty of Flash content out there that is fat and slow, but this is an argument against poor design rather than one against the tool itself.



    To say that the future of the internet should be or will be confined to antiquated standards that are primary driven by text and static images is just plain near-sighted. The examples of real-time 3D rendering in Flash that I gave earlier are a much more accurate vision of the future to me. Users are not going to just settle for text and images when there is so much more capability available. Web based software is already taking a foot-hold, and when you have things as powerful as Flash, you will most likely see a migration from desktop based apps to fully online solutions. In fact you are already seeing this with Flash in terms of online desktops/OSes, where you basically can replace the need for a local operating system entirely. When the browser breaks away from just rendering html content to actually rendering all forms of media content as it does with Flash, and you couple this with an extremely powerful programming language such as Actionscript, the capabilities of the internet start to move closer and closer to that of an operating system on a local machine.



    -David H.



    I agree. The fact that these small mobile devices can't as yet, give a good experience of Flash animations is the main reason why Jobs is so against it. He want to bide time until they can do that. Specifically, Apple's devices.



    I'm pretty sure that when they finally can do that, his attitude will change.
  • Reply 129 of 160
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DjacK View Post


    Not entirely, although architectural limitations are surely an actual problem. From the way Jobs is positioning himself, trying to advise developers to move away from using the Flash tool entirely, I think it is pretty apparent that he is trying dictate the evolution of the internet to fit his agenda. The problem though is that i don't think that his iphone is the end all mobile internet device, although it seems to hold that title right now. Mobile devices are going to continually get more and more powerful, so architectural limitations are not going to be a lasting issue. I agree that there's plenty of Flash content out there that is fat and slow, but this is an argument against poor design rather than one against the tool itself.



    To say that the future of the internet should be or will be confined to antiquated standards that are primary driven by text and static images is just plain near-sighted. The examples of real-time 3D rendering in Flash that I gave earlier are a much more accurate vision of the future to me. Users are not going to just settle for text and images when there is so much more capability available. Web based software is already taking a foot-hold, and when you have things as powerful as Flash, you will most likely see a migration from desktop based apps to fully online solutions. In fact you are already seeing this with Flash in terms of online desktops/OSes, where you basically can replace the need for a local operating system entirely. When the browser breaks away from just rendering html content to actually rendering all forms of media content as it does with Flash, and you couple this with an extremely powerful programming language such as Actionscript, the capabilities of the internet start to move closer and closer to that of an operating system on a local machine.



    -David H.



    David H



    For me, your comments are the most concise and well informed in this entire article, well done.



    hopefully others will now get it instead of talking mis-informed crap!
  • Reply 130 of 160
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,927member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DjacK View Post


    Not entirely, although architectural limitations are surely an actual problem. From the way Jobs is positioning himself, trying to advise developers to move away from using the Flash tool entirely, I think it is pretty apparent that he is trying dictate the evolution of the internet to fit his agenda. The problem though is that i don't think that his iphone is the end all mobile internet device, although it seems to hold that title right now. Mobile devices are going to continually get more and more powerful, so architectural limitations are not going to be a lasting issue. I agree that there's plenty of Flash content out there that is fat and slow, but this is an argument against poor design rather than one against the tool itself.



    To say that the future of the internet should be or will be confined to antiquated standards that are primary driven by text and static images is just plain near-sighted. The examples of real-time 3D rendering in Flash that I gave earlier are a much more accurate vision of the future to me. Users are not going to just settle for text and images when there is so much more capability available. Web based software is already taking a foot-hold, and when you have things as powerful as Flash, you will most likely see a migration from desktop based apps to fully online solutions. In fact you are already seeing this with Flash in terms of online desktops/OSes, where you basically can replace the need for a local operating system entirely. When the browser breaks away from just rendering html content to actually rendering all forms of media content as it does with Flash, and you couple this with an extremely powerful programming language such as Actionscript, the capabilities of the internet start to move closer and closer to that of an operating system on a local machine.



    -David H.



    Yes, controlled by one company (Adobe) - hence Steve's issue.



    McD
  • Reply 131 of 160
    abster2coreabster2core Posts: 2,501member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DjacK View Post


    Not entirely, although architectural limitations are surely an actual problem. From the way Jobs is positioning himself, trying to advise developers to move away from using the Flash tool entirely, I think it is pretty apparent that he is trying dictate the evolution of the internet to fit his agenda. The problem though is that i don't think that his iphone is the end all mobile internet device, although it seems to hold that title right now. Mobile devices are going to continually get more and more powerful, so architectural limitations are not going to be a lasting issue. I agree that there's plenty of Flash content out there that is fat and slow, but this is an argument against poor design rather than one against the tool itself.



    To say that the future of the internet should be or will be confined to antiquated standards that are primary driven by text and static images is just plain near-sighted. The examples of real-time 3D rendering in Flash that I gave earlier are a much more accurate vision of the future to me. Users are not going to just settle for text and images when there is so much more capability available. Web based software is already taking a foot-hold, and when you have things as powerful as Flash, you will most likely see a migration from desktop based apps to fully online solutions. In fact you are already seeing this with Flash in terms of online desktops/OSes, where you basically can replace the need for a local operating system entirely. When the browser breaks away from just rendering html content to actually rendering all forms of media content as it does with Flash, and you couple this with an extremely powerful programming language such as Actionscript, the capabilities of the internet start to move closer and closer to that of an operating system on a local machine.



    -David H.



    David, I take exception to your conclusions. On the one hand, you admit that there are architectural limitations which are a problem and which to me suggests that Jobs is right.



    I would think that Apple having spent nearly $200 million developing the iPhone that they would be in a better position to judge whether or not something is suitable for its product. On examination of actual statements from Jobs himself, I can't really find any that truly reflect any position that you have attributed to him.



    My understanding, that based on what is available today, Flash does not suit the overall objective to fulfill Apple's iPhone strategy, i.e., to offer a mobile device that firstly works as it should, everytime and everywhere. If, in Apples testing, that current versions of Flash, for example, don't measure up, how can one argue. And as the article so comprehensively explains, Jobs is not dictating anything, but highly outlining means to ensure the viability of his product. Something that he has every right to do. Remember, the iPhone has only one chance to do it right. Otherwise, it will be faced with the wrath of a much larger industry just waiting for the calls to proclaim, "It looks pretty surfing the net, but I can't make a phone call."



    But hey. Spend $99 and build a Flash app. You seem to be well qualified. And if you are successful, you will make a lot more money, rather than spending time dising on what Jobs said or may have said. Certainly after today's announcement, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that he has an evil underlying strategy to destroy the world.
  • Reply 132 of 160
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by McDave View Post


    Yes, controlled by one company (Adobe) - hence Steve's issue.



    McD



    Adobe is the new Microsoft. Unfortunately the original Microsoft lives on!
  • Reply 133 of 160
    djackdjack Posts: 7member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post


    David, I take exception to your conclusions. On the one hand, you admit that there are architectural limitations which are a problem and which to me suggests that Jobs is right.



    I would think that Apple having spent nearly $200 million developing the iPhone that they would be in a better position to judge whether or not something is suitable for its product. On examination of actual statements from Jobs himself, I can't really find any that truly reflect any position that you have attributed to him.



    My understanding, that based on what is available today, Flash does not suit the overall objective to fulfill Apple's iPhone strategy, i.e., to offer a mobile device that firstly works as it should, everytime and everywhere. If, in Apples testing, that current versions of Flash, for example, don't measure up, how can one argue. And as the article so comprehensively explains, Jobs is not dictating anything, but highly outlining means to ensure the viability of his product. Something that he has every right to do. Remember, the iPhone has only one chance to do it right. Otherwise, it will be faced with the wrath of a much larger industry just waiting for the calls to proclaim, "It looks pretty surfing the net, but I can't make a phone call."



    But hey. Spend $99 and build a Flash app. You seem to be well qualified. And if you are successful, you will make a lot more money, rather than spending time dising on what Jobs said or may have said. Certainly after today's announcement, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that he has an evil underlying strategy to destroy the world.



    You're right about the current limitations being a good enough reason to leave out Flash support at present, but what about all of the other mobile devices that aren't any more powerful than the iPhone that can? Of course, the RISC based ARM processor is specifically weak in order to conserve battery power, but there are plenty of things that could (and probably should) be done to get around this. There are already "Flash block" programs out there which handle flash content and don't actually execute it unless you select the content. Even IE has their famous active content selection strategy (another agenda based anti-Flash move if you ask me).



    I don't see how you can possibly claim that Flash shouldn't be part of Apple's iPhone strategy if they want to claim it provides access to the "real internet". In this case it would be more accurate to say "Access Apple's Personal Vision of the Internet".



    I'm not sure you understand exactly what my main points are here. First of all, to point out exactly how great the Flash technology is for those who only see it as annoying advertisements, as well as give you a sense of it's role in the future of the internet. On top of this I find quite interesting the position which Apple is taking on this as well as Jobs' recommendations and downplaying to future developers in terms of Flash content. This is especially noteworthy in light of the fact that you have a direct competitor of Flash in Quicktime, and the strategic business aspects of this kind of decision.



    In the end what we are talking about is a company limiting what type of content is available to the end consumer. I think that this issue, among others, is why a large number of commentators have "panned" the iPhone.



    Lastly, I don't know what you are referring to with your $99 comment. I have a salary job with a major technology company, what are you trying to imply? Perhaps that you have a stereotypical view of Flash and Flash developers because you are one of the people I described in my original post? So you know, my office did roughly $2.5 billion in revenue last year and a lot, but not all, of our business collateral is in the form of Flash content. The reason you see those Flash ads all the time is because the tool itself is just that versatile and viable on today's internet and on a much larger scale than that of any capability that things like the iPhone add.



    -David H.



    p.s. My apologies for the strong-worded name calling in my original post.
  • Reply 134 of 160
    The question is whether Apple will look to SVG as an alternative for Flash. SVG is lightweight, open standard, and is already supported by Firefox, Opera, and Safari.



    I've speculated about this on my blog. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.



    Daniel

    Opera Software
  • Reply 135 of 160
    djackdjack Posts: 7member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by danigoldman View Post


    The question is whether Apple will look to SVG as an alternative for Flash. SVG is lightweight, open standard, and is already supported by Firefox, Opera, and Safari.



    I've speculated about this on my blog. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.



    Daniel

    Opera Software



    You know, there is also an open source version of Flash out there for Flash development. (osflash.org) However it would still require the Flash plug-in. Yet since the Flash player is free I don't see this as being such an issue. What I would like to point out is that SVG and Flash are not the same thing, although there are obvious similarities. Scalable Vector Graphics are cool, and Flash's original runtime was probably just an adaptation of SVG with a bunch more functionality added. When you compare the capabilities of SVG to Flash though, there really isn't any hope that SVG can replace Flash, which is probably why SVG hasn't really gotten all the much penetration (at least form what I know).



    Adobe actually has an entire section of their site dedicated to SVG (http://www.adobe.com/svg/) which I think illustrates their lack of concern regarding it's competition to Flash. Of course Adobe released it's own Ajax Framework, Spry (http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Spry), even though Ajax is a direct competitor to Flash in a lot of ways so maybe this is just a telling aspect of Adobe's commitment to all relevant technologies for the web. In fact, I would argue that Adobe is taking a much better stance on this issue than Apple/Jobs is in light of their treatment of things like Flash.



    -David H.
  • Reply 136 of 160
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    By June Adobe certainly will be able to build a flash plug in for the iPhone if it so chooses. And people will be able to use it if they so choose But I see just as much complaint about flash as I see people who champion it. I don't think most people want flash to fail, they want Adobe to improve it. Adobe would have little reason or motivation to improve its performance if no one complained about it.
  • Reply 137 of 160
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Also David you are looking at the situation from a narrow perspective. If flash were just allowed to run freely on the iPhone more than likely the result would be signifcantly reduced battery life. Most people who know nothing about any of this would assume something is wrong with device itself.



    Others who know what the problem detractors will become even more vocal about how they feel flash is crap.
  • Reply 138 of 160
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DjacK View Post


    You're right about the current limitations being a good enough reason to leave out Flash support at present, but what about all of the other mobile devices that aren't any more powerful than the iPhone that can? Of course, the RISC based ARM processor is specifically weak in order to conserve battery power, but there are plenty of things that could (and probably should) be done to get around this. There are already "Flash block" programs out there which handle flash content and don't actually execute it unless you select the content. Even IE has their famous active content selection strategy (another agenda based anti-Flash move if you ask me).



    I don't see how you can possibly claim that Flash shouldn't be part of Apple's iPhone strategy if they want to claim it provides access to the "real internet". In this case it would be more accurate to say "Access Apple's Personal Vision of the Internet".



    I'm not sure you understand exactly what my main points are here. First of all, to point out exactly how great the Flash technology is for those who only see it as annoying advertisements, as well as give you a sense of it's role in the future of the internet. On top of this I find quite interesting the position which Apple is taking on this as well as Jobs' recommendations and downplaying to future developers in terms of Flash content. This is especially noteworthy in light of the fact that you have a direct competitor of Flash in Quicktime, and the strategic business aspects of this kind of decision.



    In the end what we are talking about is a company limiting what type of content is available to the end consumer. I think that this issue, among others, is why a large number of commentators have "panned" the iPhone.



    Lastly, I don't know what you are referring to with your $99 comment. I have a salary job with a major technology company, what are you trying to imply? Perhaps that you have a stereotypical view of Flash and Flash developers because you are one of the people I described in my original post? So you know, my office did roughly $2.5 billion in revenue last year and a lot, but not all, of our business collateral is in the form of Flash content. The reason you see those Flash ads all the time is because the tool itself is just that versatile and viable on today's internet and on a much larger scale than that of any capability that things like the iPhone add.



    -David H.



    p.s. My apologies for the strong-worded name calling in my original post.



    One of the reasons why Flash for the iPhone may be difficult, is that despite all the power, and memory of the iPhone, there is much more going on that is using that power. It's certainly possible that not enough horsepower is left over to run Flash—at this time. Possibly, another upgraded machine will have enough power, and battery life, and then, things may change.



    I don't think he meant an insult. It reads to me that he is saying just what he did. That you sound qualified to write such an app, and that the $99 barrier is low enough for you to give it a try.
  • Reply 139 of 160
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DjacK View Post


    Similarly, all of you who are nothing more than internet junkies should be getting in line to give a nice fat BJ to Flash for the many breakthroughs that it has provided your internet experience, as well as the numerous ones that are still to come.

    -David H.



    It's the first time I see a Flash fan-boy wearing his Adobe kneepads so proudly. What a talent! What an enthusiasm! What a dedication! But you are raising a good question. What did Flash provide to my Internet experience? Hmm, let me think a minute...

    - Obnoxious ads that I can't easily filter out with animations I can't pause and music that doesn't stop?

    - Crappy UIs with fixed-size screens that don't reflow, ugly little scrollbars and unnatural controls?

    - Images I can't save, text I can't copy nor search, and pages I can't bookmark?

    - Grainy videos on YouTube that I could never watch more than 10 minutes at a time until the iPhone finally let me appreciate them in clear MPEG-4?

    - Er... there must be something else but it doesn't immediately come to mind. Oh yes: there was that beautiful photographer web site I saw 18 months ago. Too bad I can't remember the name, though.



    And you? What did it bring to your Internet experience besides making good money at something you're good at?



    Pierre
  • Reply 140 of 160
    djackdjack Posts: 7member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by photobiker View Post


    It's the first time I see a Flash fan-boy wearing his Adobe kneepads so proudly. What a talent! What an enthusiasm! What a dedication! But you are raising a good question. What did Flash provide to my Internet experience? Hmm, let me think a minute...

    - Obnoxious ads that I can't easily filter out with animations I can't pause and music that doesn't stop?

    - Crappy UIs with fixed-size screens that don't reflow, ugly little scrollbars and unnatural controls?

    - Images I can't save, text I can't copy nor search, and pages I can't bookmark?

    - Grainy videos on YouTube that I could never watch more than 10 minutes at a time until the iPhone finally let me appreciate them in clear MPEG-4?

    - Er... there must be something else but it doesn't immediately come to mind. Oh yes: there was that beautiful photographer web site I saw 18 months ago. Too bad I can't remember the name, though.



    And you? What did it bring to your Internet experience besides making good money at something you're good at?



    Pierre



    Pierre, Thanks. Here try these tips:



    -use Flash Block so you can't see Flash if you don't want it. (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/433)



    -Sorry but if you think Flash provides crappy UIs, you are just flat wrong. I suggest the website http://www.thefwa.com to educate yourself. I'm not sure if you've ever made a website... If you have please consider trying to make any of the sites on there using even the most current Ajax design strategies.



    -You should try and use the print screen button if you want to save those images, and a lot of websites don't want you to download their copyrighted images anyway. Text in Flash can be rendered as html and thus be selectable, copiable and searchable. Again Flash allows the developer more control to provide the content that they want. Bookmarks anchors can be coded into Flash movies at any point, but you wouldn't know this because I'm guessing you don't really know anything at all about web technologies?



    -YouTube movies on the iPhone are just as grainy as their Flash versions. In fact, they are probably worse because google converted a lot of them to the h.264 codec from the flv format they were in before. Also, YouTube wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for the Flash technology, so how about that BJ?



    -Wish I knew the site you were talking about, but you remembered it even if you don't recall the name right? Must have been a good user experience.



    For me personally I really like the stock charts on google finance among many other things, and being able to make a living isn't so bad either.



    I hope this cleared some of your questions up! And plus thanks for proving me right:



    (on my first post)



    "All the detractors of Flash that are out there are either just totally oblivious leaches of the modern technological era that have no technical background (probably most of digg’s audience), jealous of the technology, those who know how to use it, or those own the rights to it (Stubborn developers, Steve Jobs), or just not really thinking about how ill-advised their moronic Flash-bashing really is."



    I guess some people can be more than one of those at the same time...



    -David H.
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