Is Nokia really much of a player in that business? I thought it was mostly RIMM and anyone else is just picking up scraps.
Because Nokia is not a major player in the US does not mean that Nokia is lagging in the rest of the world. Nokia could never sell another phone in the US and it would still turn a profit and be a dominant player in the market. They are just that big.
And yet, its pretty close to the EDGE phones in talk time, and is close to the iPhone in web-browsing time...Meh. It's pretty close to the iPhone's batt life, and that's with 3G, not EDGE. It does beat Jobs "5 hour" specification on talk time.
3G isn't used for talk time so that doesn't matter. The Pearl and the Black Jack are more comparable because they are likely closer in specs (screen size, processor, internal storage) than either are to the iPhone.
All you can really say the BJ 2 is better than is the BJ 1.
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Hmm... looks like 3G chipsets really have gotten lots better on power consumption, even 3G chipsets from a few months ago.
Well yes, this is what Jobs said he has been waiting for.
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No... I recall Jobs commenting that he wanted to get at least "5 hours" of battery life from a 3G iPhone. So it seems like he's willing to take a bit of a hit there, just not an enormous one.
The BJ 2 didn't even last 5 hours. I would imagine the 3G chips used in the iPhone will be better.
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Of course, there are the other differences you mention, but they may not be as dramatic as you'd think. For example, the iPhone's screen isn't even on while you're talking, thanks to the nifty sensor... so that particular difference is largely moot in terms of talk time
The screen only turns off automatically when you put it to your head. When you are using a headset the screen stays on unless you lock it. Or don't touch it for awhile it will eventually go to sleep.
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And I'm not sure how much more juice the internal storage would actually use.
If you are talking on a headset you can continue to do other things on the iPhone. More internal storage provides the opportunity for more activity.
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For myself, I'm sure an iPhone using a recent 3G chipset wouldn't get quite the batt life of the 'Jack II, but it may be 'close enough'.
You yourself point out how they keep improving. The chips used in the iPhone will be even newer than the ones used in the BJ.
Because Nokia is not a major player in the US does not mean that Nokia is lagging in the rest of the world. Nokia could never sell another phone in the US and it would still turn a profit and be a dominant player in the market. They are just that big.
I know Nokia is huge, but I meant as a tool for large businesses. I'm totally unfamiliar with what Nokia does for collaborative scheduling, contacts, messaging and so on for large organizations. I know it's clearly within their reach, I just don't know if they actually do that.
I know Nokia is huge, but I meant as a tool for large businesses. I'm totally unfamiliar with what Nokia does for collaborative scheduling, contacts, messaging and so on for large organizations. I know it's clearly within their reach, I just don't know if they actually do that.
Nokia can connect to Exhange or to BB. If you look at their E-Series phones, you will see that they include the BB client. Currently in Finland, I was speaking to an Elisa rep regarding BB support and they were saying that BB is simply not necessary. Any mobile device with a VPN that can connect to a backend server can access company services. This is done quite often here. I would imagine that the iPhone will be able to do the same. The biggest problem with the iPhone is the lack of user accessable storage. I am using both an iPhone and N81. I can store docs, files, etc.... on the N81 while the iPhone is mainly for music. There is a third party application that supposedly allows access to a file storage system. I am thinking of trying this.
I know Nokia is huge, but I meant as a tool for large businesses. I'm totally unfamiliar with what Nokia does for collaborative scheduling, contacts, messaging and so on for large organizations. I know it's clearly within their reach, I just don't know if they actually do that.
Nokia's E and N series and Sony Ericsson's P and M series all include ActiveSync clients and Blackberry Connect software. They also all do IMAP IDLE, support vCards and iCal.
Nokia's E and N series and Sony Ericsson's P and M series all include ActiveSync clients and Blackberry Connect software. They also all do IMAP IDLE, support vCards and iCal.
Did you see how large the sensors are on the DSLRs at the 10 mp or higher resolution?
Yes. I know how cameras work. And that's why I don't understand why when someone berates the iPhone's camera for having only 2mp, a shit sensor, no flash, no autofocus and poor low light sensitivity, that the rest of the debate is about the 'megapixel myth' forgetting all other factors.
Is a Haselblad shit because it has more pixels than an Olympus Mju? No. So why the asinine debate about megapixels when we suggest, hey, you know, the iPhone camera is a bit shit when compared to say a 4 year old SE K800 or today's N series and Cybershots?
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Originally Posted by backtomac
You might be able to get a prosumer compact sized sensor in the iPhone. But more than likely the biggest sensor you'll get in the iPhone is the midrange compact size. That is probably what is in my olympus point and shoot and the pics aren't that great. Very noisy at 7 mp. Maybe they'd be better at 5 mps.
Anyway I'm not the one with the mega pixel myth or mega pixel envy.
And as I've already pointed out, it's not just about megapixels. The Nokia 6500 has 2mp too, and a flash, and delivers better pictures. Or try a Nokia N82...
i don't care about a camera, 2mp is more than enough for what i take pictures i just as soon use my canon digital elf
apple needs two phones one with and without a phone (bto) for enterprise.
they need to put the camera in the front for video conferencing, ichat.
as far as the megapixel myth, a camera review site showed how more megapixels can increase noise and showed the differences. do i really need a 10megapixel picture to send to someone. on another camera phone,.....someone did that to me i'd cuss them out for the download tiime and data cost. how many consumers will decrease the megapixels to be courteous to the "receiver" i've had dingess's send me 8mp snaps of their kids eating spaghetti---actually 6 of them, did they have the courtesy of reducing the size of the download so it wouldn't clog my email box????
2mp is plenty for a phone. and pitching more just for "one ups manship" is a waste and shows how dumb most consumers really are. gee this phone has 10mp camera, but a junk UI....apple is way better. i guess it's cheaper to put a 10mp camera in an otherwise junk phone, instead of spending the $$$$ on UI and real features.
3G isn't used for talk time so that doesn't matter.
Actually, 3G is used for talk time with this technology (HSDPA). Didn't you notice the Anandtech article you used to quote, where the talk time went down when 3G was on? HSDPA handles both data and voice.
Where you might be getting confused is that there are some 3G technologies that are data-only, such as EVDO. But those are used by Sprint and Verizon, not ATT or the Euro carriers.
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Well yes, this is what Jobs said he has been waiting for.
What I'm pointing out is, if Apple had wanted to get a 3G iPhone out in time for the Euro launch back in November, they could've... lower power consumption 3G chipsets were already available back then. But it wasn't only about battery life for Stevie, because while the resulting 3G iPhone would've been 'good enough' on battery life, it might not have been the absolute slimmest kid on the block... it might've had to have been a couple mm fatter.
So Steve wanted it all... the batt life and the absolute slimmest form factor. To get that required not just a low power consumption 3G chipset, like what the 'Jack II had, but something even better/lower power-- the Broadcom chipset. This is why we're still waiting for a 3G iPhone.
One can argue over whether that was a great choice by Apple, but, as we all know by now, in the context of Europe alone... sales would've been better with 3G.
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The BJ 2 didn't even last 5 hours.
Jobs said he wanted 5+ hours of talk time, and the 'Jack II got over 6.
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The screen only turns off automatically when you put it to your head. When you are using a headset the screen stays on unless you lock it. Or don't touch it for awhile it will eventually go to sleep.
This doesn't seem a big obstacle. On my current 'nothing special' flip phone, I can set the screen backlight to dim after 7 seconds of no input (and talking isn't considered input).
It dims after 7 seconds, and then goes off after another 7 seconds... while I'm talking. No incredible software prowess required. *shrug*
apple needs two phones one with and without a phone (bto) for enterprise.
they need to put the camera in the front for video conferencing, ichat.
That would be good. Some workplaces don't allow cameraphones, and you already see other phone companies acknowledging that. Motorola, for example, made a 325i phone (with camera) and a 325xi variant (no camera). I'm sure the 325i considerably outsells the 325xi variant, though.
I guess all I'd say for a camera version of a 3G iPhone is... if you're gonna put a camera on a high-end phone, really go for it. Put something on there that at least approaches the quality of the best cameraphones (like the N82), include flash and autofocus... and, for godsakes, video-recording.
There's just no good excuse not to on a phone that's this high-end.
Well, considering that you somehow forgot to include the part of my quote where I said the N96 was a minor revision to the N95, I think you got the answer to the first of your questions already.
And in an earlier post I already stated that the iPhone 2.0 = the 3G iPhone, period. So you've already been answered there as well.
Didn't forget. Just wanted more clarification on what are major and minor revisions to you, and what version numbering means to you. I presume the only the way to get you excited for a major revision is a 5+ MP camera/HD camcorder using a gigantic image sensor with optical zoom, optical image stabilization, and a really bright flash.
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Do other phone lines have the same revision cycle? If by that you mean that all phones should be held to the same standard as far as what constitutes a minor or major revision, I would agree with that.
There's no contention, I was simply agreeing with other folks who stated that model revisions occur frequently in the cell phone market. They do. But I wouldn't call an HSDPA (3G) revision to the iPhone "minor" by any means, as you do above.
The iPhone storage revisions? They're certainly minor, as nothing else was changed.
On the revision cycles, as before, it is really premature to say that Apple won't revise the iPhone or have other model lines of cell phones; and, I think it isn't really true that cell phone maker update their phones every 3 to 6 months. It's 6 to twelve months at best for each cell phone line, and Apple will have no trouble keeping up with that. We know they'll do it at least every year to catch the holiday season.
Is 3G a major revision? Considering the ~10% 3G user-base penetration in Europe and something much much less in the NAM, it speaks to how valuable it is to people the current market. I do agree with you that 3G is a major feature. It is much much more valuable on the iPhone than on other phones because it is more of a MID than other phones, and therefore would benefit much more from it. So I agree that it's major and I'm waiting for it.
Speaking of iPhone storage revisions. I would consider it something more than minor because the iPhone is a music/video device where storage is really needed. Storage is much much more important to iPhone users than it is to Blackberry users, Blackjack users, HTC dujour, the billions of Nokia users, etc. Not having an SD slot also plays into that, but the iPhone will typically be 6 months to 1 year ahead of other cell phones in the amount of storage available, unless people are willing to do the multiple SD card dance.
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Yup. But no amount of execution gets them 10 million iPhone sales in the US alone in '08, however. To meet their goal, they're going to have to get significant sales in Europe and Asia. And I think they can, unless they are very slow on getting a 3G iPhone out and/or are incredibly inflexible on pricing.
Unless? What makes you think they won't be?
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Actually, the iPhone is already a camera phone, since it has a camera. I guess you mean a phone with a good camera... for a phone. And yes, I think that would help, considering that at the iPhone's high price point, ppl might reasonably expect something like a good camera, plus video capture, a flash, autofocus, etc.
Far as Apple's intentions go, perhaps you are right, and Apple thought it could skate by with the current camera specs. But, what does that prove? Apple also thought it could skate by in Europe with 2.5G and high pricing and do fine. But that hasn't really worked out too well.
Cost of ownership is important, but only if your feature set isn't a deal-breaker to begin with. Apple could lower the price of the iPhone considerably, but if they keep it at 2.5G, it still won't sell well in Europe. Not to mention Japan and Korea, where they're launching later this year.
We're running in circles. I contend it was pricing of the iPhone and the service. The market is big enough to have high end phones specializing in different ways, so I don't think having a high spec camera function would have done much. 3G capability? Not so sure myself. It's vitally important to have... eventually for everywhere in the world. But this winter, I really don't think it is that big of driver. By this Summer, I think 3G on the iPhone will be absolutely vital with version 2.0 of the OS out.
In many ways, the reason why Apple doesn't sell as much in non-NAM countries is because their brand isn't that strong outside of the USA. Improving the brand will be a pretty long term thing for Apple to do, especially in the cell phone market. I'd consider the brand strength to be as big of a factor as prices and features.
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I'm happy to hear that. But I'm not worried about you, as you are not the market.
What I am saying is that it's logical to be at least on par (or close) with your competition in the features that a significant chunk of the high-end cellphone market actually cares about. 3G would be one of those features. MMS? Yes, ppl expect it. A camera with good specs, video recording, flash, autofocus? At this (high) pricepoint... yep.
You may not see it that way, and I respect your opinion. But frankly, I think Apple was a bit surprised at the iPhone's fairly poor reception in Europe, and is now realizing what it really takes to compete there (not to mention Asia). Thus, I think we will see some significant spec bumps and feature adds to the iPhone's camera/video capabilities in the 3G iPhone... not to mention elsewhere.
And if they do that, it will simply be a wise competitive move, not 'featuritis'. But if you see FM radio capability or a flashlight on the 3G iPhone, then you can call featuritis. And I will join you.
Apple plays the spec game in a rather unique way as seen in their computer and DAP models. They target the 90% use features and make them as easy and fun to use as possible. That's their big feature hook. They need to be close in features yes - that's why their is a merely functional camera on it - but they won't be matching the high cell phones feature for feature. This penalizes them to many in the market, but they gladly will forgo that part of the market for those who would rather have ease-of-use, pleasure-of-use.
3G, better functionality, GPS, all those types of things are just part of the long term evolution of the product. As far as camera functionality, well, I think cramming 5+ MP into a camera without the proper sized image sensor and optics, that's a specialization feature to me. I don't see it as a requisite of an expensive phone. The market is big enough to have specialized feature phones without it demanding that all phones have all high end features.
Just wanted more clarification on what are major and minor revisions to you, and what version numbering means to you. I presume the only the way to get you excited for a major revision is a 5+ MP camera/HD camcorder using a gigantic image sensor with optical zoom, optical image stabilization, and a really bright flash.
Sarcasm noted.
Seriously though THT, it's obvious that a revision that brought 3G and absolutely no other changes would be 'major'. I don't think that's the only thing Apple needs to do, however. And honestly, would you be terribly put out if the camera on the 3G iPhone did indeed approach the quality and features of the best cameraphones? No, i didn't think so.
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On the revision cycles, as before, it is really premature to say that Apple won't revise the iPhone or have other model lines of cell phones; and, I think it isn't really true that cell phone maker update their phones every 3 to 6 months. It's 6 to twelve months at best for each cell phone line,
Yeah, I agree. Which is why I previously said I think revisions occur every 6 to 12 months on cellphone models.
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Is 3G a major revision? Considering the ~10% 3G user-base penetration in Europe and something much much less in the NAM, it speaks to how valuable it is to people the current market.
Well, not exactly. More like "10% and climbing rapidly"... most forecasts have 3G penetration in Western Europe reaching 50-70% by 2010. Nor is it evenly spread, either... Italy apparently is already at 25%. The UK is not that far behind.
Now add to this the iPhone's particular market... the high-end, where customers would definitely expect 3G functionality to be present... and you can see why lack of 3G has been an impediment to Euro iPhone sales thus far.
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I do agree with you that 3G is a major feature. It is much much more valuable on the iPhone than on other phones because it is more of a MID than other phones, and therefore would benefit much more from it. So I agree that it's major and I'm waiting for it.
Yeah, me too. You put Safari on a phone, a giant screen, and a pretty fast cpu, all elements for a great mobile internet device... and then you don't put 3G in as soon as possible? Utter madness.
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Speaking of iPhone storage revisions. I would consider it something more than minor because the iPhone is a music/video device where storage is really needed. Storage is much much more important to iPhone users than it is to Blackberry users, Blackjack users, HTC dujour, the billions of Nokia users, etc.
Good point. I tend to term storage revisions as minor though, because they're just so easy to do. I mean, la de da, lets put a couple more flash ram chips on there, and call it a day. Is the 2GB Shuffle a major revision over the 1GB, with everything else being the same? Many would say no, I'd think, but I can see your point of view too.
Still, I can also see some chucklehead going, "Hey man, I just put a 8GB microSD card into my phone! I just MAJORLY REVISED it! Har har har..."
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Unless? What makes you think they won't be?
Because I don't think Apple is utterly dumb. They can see how they're doing in Europe, which is to say, not that good. They know 3G is one of the big factors why that is. They also know price is a major factor too. I can't imagine them ignoring both for a very long period of time... in fact, they've already started to address the price issue, as you can see by the changes in O2 contracts.
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We're running in circles. I contend it was pricing of the iPhone and the service.
It was that, and 3G, and a few other things to a lesser extent besides.
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The market is big enough to have high end phones specializing in different ways, so I don't think having a high spec camera function would have done much.
My Euro friends appear to disagree with you, as do my multimedia geek US friends. I don't think it matters as much as 3G, but it does seem to matter.
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3G capability? Not so sure myself. It's vitally important to have... eventually for everywhere in the world. But this winter, I really don't think it is that big of driver. By this Summer, I think 3G on the iPhone will be absolutely vital with version 2.0 of the OS out.
I think that horse has already left the barn. There's little doubt among most of articles I read and most of the ppl I talk to that 3G is really needed for the iPhone in the European market. And the sooner, the better.
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In many ways, the reason why Apple doesn't sell as much in non-NAM countries is because their brand isn't that strong outside of the USA. Improving the brand will be a pretty long term thing for Apple to do, especially in the cell phone market. I'd consider the brand strength to be as big of a factor as prices and features.
I'd say that that same comparative brand-weakness abroad is additional reason to be feature competitive in overseas markets
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Apple plays the spec game in a rather unique way as seen in their computer and DAP models. They target the 90% use features and make them as easy and fun to use as possible.
The thing is, Apple is used to walking into markets and dictating the terms... successfully. Look at the iPod. Apple told everyone that certain features were not necessary, and by gumbo, they weren't.
The problem is, the cellphone market isn't the music player market. It's much more established, and there's a lot more competition. People, especially in the more sophisticated markets like Asia and Western Europe, already know what they want, to a large extent.
But if Apple tries to dictate terms and tell the market what it should want, that just isn't going to go over very well. It already hasn't in Western Europe. And can you imagine how badly a 2.5G iPhone would crash and burn in Japan and Korea? Eeyikes.
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3G, better functionality, GPS, all those types of things are just part of the long term evolution of the product. As far as camera functionality, well, I think cramming 5+ MP into a camera without the proper sized image sensor and optics, that's a specialization feature to me.
And yet, it sure hasn't hurt cameraphones like the N82 and N95 one whit. They take some pretty good pics, and plenty of their users seem to appreciate that.
Honestly, there's nothing wrong with the iPhone taking better pictures, having autofocus, a flash, video-recording, etc. It may be 'specialization' to a lot of ppl in the US market, but in Europe and Asia, where they're used to phones having those things, I don't think it's seen that way. And, frankly, I think some of the problem in accurately judging how the iPhone should evolve comes from too many of us having such a "US-centric" view of things.
The most obvious expression of that was how slow many of us were to grasp that, yup, 3G really was important. \
I'd be more okay with that 'US-centricness' if the US market was the phone technology leader. But it's not... in fact, the situation is almost exactly the opposite of that. Asia and Western Europe are quite a bit ahead of us in a number of things cellphone-related.
But at least not software, and we have Apple to thank for that bit of good news.
How much does anybody want to bet that when 3G finally gets here, all its supposed advantages are so much horse-hockey, like most of what these techno-geeks are screaming about?
And who is going to print out a picture from a phone at 8 x 10? 2 megapixels is already full 1920 x 1080 HD resolution, and that's the largest format anybody is ever going to view them at. And if you e-mail one of these pics to anybody without reducing it enormously, they're going to put you on their block list!
Actually, 3G is used for talk time with this technology (HSDPA).
Yes that's true. I was thinking about EDGE.
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What I'm pointing out is, if Apple had wanted to get a 3G iPhone out in time for the Euro launch back in November, they could've... lower power consumption 3G chipsets were already available back then.
Obviously they were not interested in doing this. One problem with this is that it would have split the iPhone production line. As Apple ramped iPhone production it would have cost more to manufacture than it does now.
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So Steve wanted it all... the batt life and the absolute slimmest form factor. To get that required not just a low power consumption 3G chipset, like what the 'Jack II had, but something even better/lower power-- the Broadcom chipset. This is why we're still waiting for a 3G iPhone.
Well we don't know everything Apple knows. They are likely waiting for chips even better than what the BJ 2 uses.
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Jobs said he wanted 5+ hours of talk time, and the 'Jack II got over 6.
But the BJ 2 only got 4 hours of internet time versus the iPhone's 5. Also interesting the BJ 2 got 7 hours of music playback while the Pearl lasted 12, the iPhone 10. When they tested the iPhone using the included ear buds they got 31 hours and 48 minutes of music playback.
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This doesn't seem a big obstacle. On my current 'nothing special' flip phone, I can set the screen backlight to dim after 7 seconds of no input (and talking isn't considered input).
I'm not sure what your point is. Your flip phone screen does not take the same amount of energy as the iPhone screen.
I'm just letting you know the screen does not always automatically turn off just because you are on a call.
Even Teno's not completely hopeless. After all, it only took about 300 posts from me and nine months or so of de-programming to make him understand that 3G actually matters.
I've only said this after what I really said has gone through your George Bushian logic of "with us or against us".
My original point about 3G was that the iPhone would sell well in America without 3G because its not as common here. Which originally you argued against. Then once that did not come to pass you moved on to Europe and Asia.
I speculated Apple may wait two years to release a second version of the iPhone. Because everything from accounting to subscriptions on the iPhone were spread across 24 months. Now I see how quickly the mobile phone market changes and adapts. I see they cannot wait that long.
How much does anybody want to bet that when 3G finally gets here, all its supposed advantages are so much horse-hockey, like most of what these techno-geeks are screaming about?
Depends. 3G is a wide term currently covering speeds from 384kbps to 7.2mbps. There would be very little advantage to 3G at the low end speeds over EDGE should you have EDGE available in your area. In Europe however, EDGE isn't very common, whereas 3G is so it's more important even at the low end of 3G.
Secondly, it's not just the data speed that is an issue. Sometimes the main CPU in a phone limits the speed the applications can render data anyway so the data speed is often higher than the phone can cope with. If there's a free bar, you might be able to drink 10 pints of beer an hour but if you can only piss a pint an hour your going to get backed up.
But, more importantly, for those of us that use data, full 3G speeds of 3.6mbps or 7.2mbps which are more common here in Europe are often used with a phone or modem tethered to a laptop. Here, there are people ditching land line based broadband entirely because 3G mobile broadband is actually faster and cheaper for them.
Currently, Apple don't let you tether an iPhone either by Bluetooth or USB and use it as a modem. That's where 3G matters and it's one of the complaints people have with the iPhone. Unlimited data plans are great but you're never going to use much of it if you're stuck with EDGE at best.
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Originally Posted by Gatesbasher
And who is going to print out a picture from a phone at 8 x 10? 2 megapixels is already full 1920 x 1080 HD resolution, and that's the largest format anybody is ever going to view them at. And if you e-mail one of these pics to anybody without reducing it enormously, they're going to put you on their block list!
It's all about the resolution. Try printing out a 10x8 at 300dpi (magazine resolution) and a 10x8 at 72dpi (screen resolution) and you'll spot the difference immediately.
If you'd not spotted it yet, Apple Mail also has the option to reduce the image size. I don't know if they added that to the iphone but they should. If the iPhone supported MMS, it'd reduce the size to a sensible size already.
How much does anybody want to bet that when 3G finally gets here, all its supposed advantages are so much horse-hockey, like most of what these techno-geeks are screaming about?
Your location speak volumes about your understanding and usage of 3G. Your argument is that of" A Porsche doesn't matter because I don't have one". I can say after living here in Europe and other parts of the world were 3G speeds are common place, EDGE is a huge disappointment but one I live with currently. I do almost no browsing with the iPhone unless I am connected via wifi, and only check my emails once and a while. EDGE is just to slow. Before you summarily dismiss a technology that you obviously have not experience, you should do some research first or if you are not sure, it would be better not to say anything at all.
Many of the users of the higher data speeds are not in the "tech" realm but users that like to stream radio over their phones, or use video conferencing on their phones. Ever hear of Fring? Try doing that on the iPhone, or using a VoIP application. I would say your knowledge of the uses and technologies involved are quite limited.
Your location speak volumes about your understanding and usage of 3G. Your argument is that of" A Porsche doesn't matter because I don't have one". I can say after living here in Europe and other parts of the world were 3G speeds are common place, EDGE is a huge disappointment but one I live with currently. I do almost no browsing with the iPhone unless I am connected via wifi, and only check my emails once and a while. EDGE is just to slow. Before you summarily dismiss a technology that you obviously have not experience, you should do some research first or if you are not sure, it would be better not to say anything at all.
Many of the users of the higher data speeds are not in the "tech" realm but users that like to stream radio over their phones, or use video conferencing on their phones. Ever hear of http://forums.appleinsider.com/image...eyes.gifFring? Try doing that on the iPhone, or using a VoIP application. I would say your knowledge of the uses and technologies involved are quite limited.
Ouch. A little mean, but probably somewhat true. \
I do think there's a bit of a "If the iPhone doesn't have it, then I must not need it" attitude among some, coupled of course with an overly US-centric view of the cellphone market. It's great to be so supportive of Apple, but... c'mon. This is Apple's first effort (the ROKR was a Motorola, Apple just supplied software), and no one gets it perfect the first time.
They will do better than Microsoft though. That's the company where even its own fans say, "Yeah, okay, it IS pure sh*t, but just wait until version THREE!!"
I mean, Apple certainly does have its Kool-aid drinkers, but I think you have be quaffing the entire Kool-aid TRUCK to be a huge MS fan these days.
Yep, it's confusing. And of course, if you were outside of a 3G coverage area, ATT's GSM network would then handle voice. There's multiple networks to consider.
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Obviously they were not interested in doing this. One problem with this is that it would have split the iPhone production line. As Apple ramped iPhone production it would have cost more to manufacture than it does now.
Meh. When a 3G iPhone shows up, one of two things will happen:
a) The EDGE iPhone goes away, and the 3G iPhone is what is sold worldwide, in all markets. No splitting of production between two significantly different models there. Or...
b) The EDGE iPhone hangs around as a 'low end' cheaper model. In which case, what's the difference between splitting production back then and splitting production now?
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They are likely waiting for chips even better than what the BJ 2 uses.
They are, and likely for the reasons I mentioned. I just think Jobs didn't tell the whole story when he blamed it all on battery life, but that isn't really a shocker, now is it?
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But the BJ 2 only got 4 hours of internet time versus the iPhone's 5.
I'm just going by what Jobs said, though I'd certainly understand if you were to say that he didn't go far enough. But, getting only 1 hour less browsing time than the iPhone isn't that huge a difference... pretty nice accomplishment, considering the iPhone is EDGE.
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I'm just letting you know the screen does not always automatically turn off just because you are on a call.
I'm just saying it wouldn't be too terribly difficult to make it so that the screen turns off after a few seconds during a call if there's no screen input, even a call that involves a headset.
I've only said this after what I really said has gone through your George Bushian logic of "with us or against us".
My original point about 3G was that the iPhone would sell well in America without 3G because its not as common here. Which originally you argued against. Then once that did not come to pass you moved on to Europe and Asia.
I speculated Apple may wait two years to release a second version of the iPhone. Because everything from accounting to subscriptions on the iPhone were spread across 24 months. Now I see how quickly the mobile phone market changes and adapts. I see they cannot wait that long.
Ouch. George Bush comparisons? Now you're just being vicious, Teno.
In any case T, I will agree with you that the iPhone has sold well in the US even being EDGE-only. That said, I don't think any of us doubts that when the 3G version launches, there should be a very nice US sales spike.
What was annoying to me, however, was how dismissive you were of 3G, for any market, for the longest time. Your 'two years' comments were ludicrous, and if you'd been paying attention at all to the European and Asian markets back then, you would've known that.
It's not just about the cellphone market changing rapidly... its about the changes that have already taken place in the major non-US markets. Asia and Europe just have higher expectations for what a cellphone should be than the US does, in general, and especially at the high-end. And you either address a market's expectations, or you try to change those expectations by dictating to the market instead.
I think you know which of those approaches I think works, and which one I think is likely to fall on its face.
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Is Nokia really much of a player in that business? I thought it was mostly RIMM and anyone else is just picking up scraps.
Because Nokia is not a major player in the US does not mean that Nokia is lagging in the rest of the world. Nokia could never sell another phone in the US and it would still turn a profit and be a dominant player in the market. They are just that big.
And yet, its pretty close to the EDGE phones in talk time, and is close to the iPhone in web-browsing time...Meh. It's pretty close to the iPhone's batt life, and that's with 3G, not EDGE. It does beat Jobs "5 hour" specification on talk time.
3G isn't used for talk time so that doesn't matter. The Pearl and the Black Jack are more comparable because they are likely closer in specs (screen size, processor, internal storage) than either are to the iPhone.
All you can really say the BJ 2 is better than is the BJ 1.
Hmm... looks like 3G chipsets really have gotten lots better on power consumption, even 3G chipsets from a few months ago.
Well yes, this is what Jobs said he has been waiting for.
No... I recall Jobs commenting that he wanted to get at least "5 hours" of battery life from a 3G iPhone. So it seems like he's willing to take a bit of a hit there, just not an enormous one.
The BJ 2 didn't even last 5 hours. I would imagine the 3G chips used in the iPhone will be better.
Of course, there are the other differences you mention, but they may not be as dramatic as you'd think. For example, the iPhone's screen isn't even on while you're talking, thanks to the nifty sensor... so that particular difference is largely moot in terms of talk time
The screen only turns off automatically when you put it to your head. When you are using a headset the screen stays on unless you lock it. Or don't touch it for awhile it will eventually go to sleep.
And I'm not sure how much more juice the internal storage would actually use.
If you are talking on a headset you can continue to do other things on the iPhone. More internal storage provides the opportunity for more activity.
For myself, I'm sure an iPhone using a recent 3G chipset wouldn't get quite the batt life of the 'Jack II, but it may be 'close enough'.
You yourself point out how they keep improving. The chips used in the iPhone will be even newer than the ones used in the BJ.
Because Nokia is not a major player in the US does not mean that Nokia is lagging in the rest of the world. Nokia could never sell another phone in the US and it would still turn a profit and be a dominant player in the market. They are just that big.
I know Nokia is huge, but I meant as a tool for large businesses. I'm totally unfamiliar with what Nokia does for collaborative scheduling, contacts, messaging and so on for large organizations. I know it's clearly within their reach, I just don't know if they actually do that.
I know Nokia is huge, but I meant as a tool for large businesses. I'm totally unfamiliar with what Nokia does for collaborative scheduling, contacts, messaging and so on for large organizations. I know it's clearly within their reach, I just don't know if they actually do that.
Nokia can connect to Exhange or to BB. If you look at their E-Series phones, you will see that they include the BB client. Currently in Finland, I was speaking to an Elisa rep regarding BB support and they were saying that BB is simply not necessary. Any mobile device with a VPN that can connect to a backend server can access company services. This is done quite often here. I would imagine that the iPhone will be able to do the same. The biggest problem with the iPhone is the lack of user accessable storage. I am using both an iPhone and N81. I can store docs, files, etc.... on the N81 while the iPhone is mainly for music. There is a third party application that supposedly allows access to a file storage system. I am thinking of trying this.
I know Nokia is huge, but I meant as a tool for large businesses. I'm totally unfamiliar with what Nokia does for collaborative scheduling, contacts, messaging and so on for large organizations. I know it's clearly within their reach, I just don't know if they actually do that.
Nokia's E and N series and Sony Ericsson's P and M series all include ActiveSync clients and Blackberry Connect software. They also all do IMAP IDLE, support vCards and iCal.
Nokia's E and N series and Sony Ericsson's P and M series all include ActiveSync clients and Blackberry Connect software. They also all do IMAP IDLE, support vCards and iCal.
Thanks aedisdesign,
I forgot about the ActiveSync client.
Have you looked at the link I posted?
Did you read my post at all?
It's not all about the number of pixels.
Did you see how large the sensors are on the DSLRs at the 10 mp or higher resolution?
Yes. I know how cameras work. And that's why I don't understand why when someone berates the iPhone's camera for having only 2mp, a shit sensor, no flash, no autofocus and poor low light sensitivity, that the rest of the debate is about the 'megapixel myth' forgetting all other factors.
Is a Haselblad shit because it has more pixels than an Olympus Mju? No. So why the asinine debate about megapixels when we suggest, hey, you know, the iPhone camera is a bit shit when compared to say a 4 year old SE K800 or today's N series and Cybershots?
You might be able to get a prosumer compact sized sensor in the iPhone. But more than likely the biggest sensor you'll get in the iPhone is the midrange compact size. That is probably what is in my olympus point and shoot and the pics aren't that great. Very noisy at 7 mp. Maybe they'd be better at 5 mps.
Anyway I'm not the one with the mega pixel myth or mega pixel envy.
And as I've already pointed out, it's not just about megapixels. The Nokia 6500 has 2mp too, and a flash, and delivers better pictures. Or try a Nokia N82...
http://www.knowyourmobile.com/nokia/...a_samples.html
Perfectly reasonable pictures for your average point-and-shoot style snapper...in a phone camera.
apple needs two phones one with and without a phone (bto) for enterprise.
they need to put the camera in the front for video conferencing, ichat.
as far as the megapixel myth, a camera review site showed how more megapixels can increase noise and showed the differences. do i really need a 10megapixel picture to send to someone. on another camera phone,.....someone did that to me i'd cuss them out for the download tiime and data cost. how many consumers will decrease the megapixels to be courteous to the "receiver" i've had dingess's send me 8mp snaps of their kids eating spaghetti---actually 6 of them, did they have the courtesy of reducing the size of the download so it wouldn't clog my email box????
2mp is plenty for a phone. and pitching more just for "one ups manship" is a waste and shows how dumb most consumers really are. gee this phone has 10mp camera, but a junk UI....apple is way better. i guess it's cheaper to put a 10mp camera in an otherwise junk phone, instead of spending the $$$$ on UI and real features.
iPhone is the new standard.
3G isn't used for talk time so that doesn't matter.
Actually, 3G is used for talk time with this technology (HSDPA). Didn't you notice the Anandtech article you used to quote, where the talk time went down when 3G was on? HSDPA handles both data and voice.
Where you might be getting confused is that there are some 3G technologies that are data-only, such as EVDO. But those are used by Sprint and Verizon, not ATT or the Euro carriers.
Well yes, this is what Jobs said he has been waiting for.
What I'm pointing out is, if Apple had wanted to get a 3G iPhone out in time for the Euro launch back in November, they could've... lower power consumption 3G chipsets were already available back then. But it wasn't only about battery life for Stevie, because while the resulting 3G iPhone would've been 'good enough' on battery life, it might not have been the absolute slimmest kid on the block... it might've had to have been a couple mm fatter.
So Steve wanted it all... the batt life and the absolute slimmest form factor. To get that required not just a low power consumption 3G chipset, like what the 'Jack II had, but something even better/lower power-- the Broadcom chipset. This is why we're still waiting for a 3G iPhone.
One can argue over whether that was a great choice by Apple, but, as we all know by now, in the context of Europe alone... sales would've been better with 3G.
The BJ 2 didn't even last 5 hours.
Jobs said he wanted 5+ hours of talk time, and the 'Jack II got over 6.
The screen only turns off automatically when you put it to your head. When you are using a headset the screen stays on unless you lock it. Or don't touch it for awhile it will eventually go to sleep.
This doesn't seem a big obstacle. On my current 'nothing special' flip phone, I can set the screen backlight to dim after 7 seconds of no input (and talking isn't considered input).
It dims after 7 seconds, and then goes off after another 7 seconds... while I'm talking. No incredible software prowess required. *shrug*
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apple needs two phones one with and without a phone (bto) for enterprise.
they need to put the camera in the front for video conferencing, ichat.
That would be good. Some workplaces don't allow cameraphones, and you already see other phone companies acknowledging that. Motorola, for example, made a 325i phone (with camera) and a 325xi variant (no camera). I'm sure the 325i considerably outsells the 325xi variant, though.
I guess all I'd say for a camera version of a 3G iPhone is... if you're gonna put a camera on a high-end phone, really go for it. Put something on there that at least approaches the quality of the best cameraphones (like the N82), include flash and autofocus... and, for godsakes, video-recording.
There's just no good excuse not to on a phone that's this high-end.
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Well, considering that you somehow forgot to include the part of my quote where I said the N96 was a minor revision to the N95, I think you got the answer to the first of your questions already.
And in an earlier post I already stated that the iPhone 2.0 = the 3G iPhone, period. So you've already been answered there as well.
Didn't forget. Just wanted more clarification on what are major and minor revisions to you, and what version numbering means to you. I presume the only the way to get you excited for a major revision is a 5+ MP camera/HD camcorder using a gigantic image sensor with optical zoom, optical image stabilization, and a really bright flash.
Do other phone lines have the same revision cycle? If by that you mean that all phones should be held to the same standard as far as what constitutes a minor or major revision, I would agree with that.
There's no contention, I was simply agreeing with other folks who stated that model revisions occur frequently in the cell phone market. They do. But I wouldn't call an HSDPA (3G) revision to the iPhone "minor" by any means, as you do above.
The iPhone storage revisions? They're certainly minor, as nothing else was changed.
On the revision cycles, as before, it is really premature to say that Apple won't revise the iPhone or have other model lines of cell phones; and, I think it isn't really true that cell phone maker update their phones every 3 to 6 months. It's 6 to twelve months at best for each cell phone line, and Apple will have no trouble keeping up with that. We know they'll do it at least every year to catch the holiday season.
Is 3G a major revision? Considering the ~10% 3G user-base penetration in Europe and something much much less in the NAM, it speaks to how valuable it is to people the current market.
Speaking of iPhone storage revisions. I would consider it something more than minor because the iPhone is a music/video device where storage is really needed. Storage is much much more important to iPhone users than it is to Blackberry users, Blackjack users, HTC dujour, the billions of Nokia users, etc. Not having an SD slot also plays into that, but the iPhone will typically be 6 months to 1 year ahead of other cell phones in the amount of storage available, unless people are willing to do the multiple SD card dance.
Yup. But no amount of execution gets them 10 million iPhone sales in the US alone in '08, however. To meet their goal, they're going to have to get significant sales in Europe and Asia. And I think they can, unless they are very slow on getting a 3G iPhone out and/or are incredibly inflexible on pricing.
Unless? What makes you think they won't be?
Actually, the iPhone is already a camera phone, since it has a camera. I guess you mean a phone with a good camera... for a phone. And yes, I think that would help, considering that at the iPhone's high price point, ppl might reasonably expect something like a good camera, plus video capture, a flash, autofocus, etc.
Far as Apple's intentions go, perhaps you are right, and Apple thought it could skate by with the current camera specs. But, what does that prove? Apple also thought it could skate by in Europe with 2.5G and high pricing and do fine. But that hasn't really worked out too well.
Cost of ownership is important, but only if your feature set isn't a deal-breaker to begin with. Apple could lower the price of the iPhone considerably, but if they keep it at 2.5G, it still won't sell well in Europe. Not to mention Japan and Korea, where they're launching later this year.
We're running in circles. I contend it was pricing of the iPhone and the service. The market is big enough to have high end phones specializing in different ways, so I don't think having a high spec camera function would have done much. 3G capability? Not so sure myself. It's vitally important to have... eventually for everywhere in the world. But this winter, I really don't think it is that big of driver. By this Summer, I think 3G on the iPhone will be absolutely vital with version 2.0 of the OS out.
In many ways, the reason why Apple doesn't sell as much in non-NAM countries is because their brand isn't that strong outside of the USA. Improving the brand will be a pretty long term thing for Apple to do, especially in the cell phone market. I'd consider the brand strength to be as big of a factor as prices and features.
I'm happy to hear that. But I'm not worried about you, as you are not the market.
What I am saying is that it's logical to be at least on par (or close) with your competition in the features that a significant chunk of the high-end cellphone market actually cares about. 3G would be one of those features. MMS? Yes, ppl expect it. A camera with good specs, video recording, flash, autofocus? At this (high) pricepoint... yep.
You may not see it that way, and I respect your opinion. But frankly, I think Apple was a bit surprised at the iPhone's fairly poor reception in Europe, and is now realizing what it really takes to compete there (not to mention Asia). Thus, I think we will see some significant spec bumps and feature adds to the iPhone's camera/video capabilities in the 3G iPhone... not to mention elsewhere.
And if they do that, it will simply be a wise competitive move, not 'featuritis'. But if you see FM radio capability or a flashlight on the 3G iPhone, then you can call featuritis. And I will join you.
Apple plays the spec game in a rather unique way as seen in their computer and DAP models. They target the 90% use features and make them as easy and fun to use as possible. That's their big feature hook. They need to be close in features yes - that's why their is a merely functional camera on it - but they won't be matching the high cell phones feature for feature. This penalizes them to many in the market, but they gladly will forgo that part of the market for those who would rather have ease-of-use, pleasure-of-use.
3G, better functionality, GPS, all those types of things are just part of the long term evolution of the product. As far as camera functionality, well, I think cramming 5+ MP into a camera without the proper sized image sensor and optics, that's a specialization feature to me. I don't see it as a requisite of an expensive phone. The market is big enough to have specialized feature phones without it demanding that all phones have all high end features.
Just wanted more clarification on what are major and minor revisions to you, and what version numbering means to you. I presume the only the way to get you excited for a major revision is a 5+ MP camera/HD camcorder using a gigantic image sensor with optical zoom, optical image stabilization, and a really bright flash.
Sarcasm noted.
Seriously though THT, it's obvious that a revision that brought 3G and absolutely no other changes would be 'major'. I don't think that's the only thing Apple needs to do, however. And honestly, would you be terribly put out if the camera on the 3G iPhone did indeed approach the quality and features of the best cameraphones? No, i didn't think so.
On the revision cycles, as before, it is really premature to say that Apple won't revise the iPhone or have other model lines of cell phones; and, I think it isn't really true that cell phone maker update their phones every 3 to 6 months. It's 6 to twelve months at best for each cell phone line,
Yeah, I agree. Which is why I previously said I think revisions occur every 6 to 12 months on cellphone models.
Is 3G a major revision? Considering the ~10% 3G user-base penetration in Europe and something much much less in the NAM, it speaks to how valuable it is to people the current market.
Well, not exactly. More like "10% and climbing rapidly"... most forecasts have 3G penetration in Western Europe reaching 50-70% by 2010. Nor is it evenly spread, either... Italy apparently is already at 25%. The UK is not that far behind.
Now add to this the iPhone's particular market... the high-end, where customers would definitely expect 3G functionality to be present... and you can see why lack of 3G has been an impediment to Euro iPhone sales thus far.
I do agree with you that 3G is a major feature. It is much much more valuable on the iPhone than on other phones because it is more of a MID than other phones, and therefore would benefit much more from it. So I agree that it's major and I'm waiting for it.
Yeah, me too. You put Safari on a phone, a giant screen, and a pretty fast cpu, all elements for a great mobile internet device... and then you don't put 3G in as soon as possible? Utter madness.
Speaking of iPhone storage revisions. I would consider it something more than minor because the iPhone is a music/video device where storage is really needed. Storage is much much more important to iPhone users than it is to Blackberry users, Blackjack users, HTC dujour, the billions of Nokia users, etc.
Good point. I tend to term storage revisions as minor though, because they're just so easy to do. I mean, la de da, lets put a couple more flash ram chips on there, and call it a day. Is the 2GB Shuffle a major revision over the 1GB, with everything else being the same? Many would say no, I'd think, but I can see your point of view too.
Still, I can also see some chucklehead going, "Hey man, I just put a 8GB microSD card into my phone! I just MAJORLY REVISED it! Har har har..."
Unless? What makes you think they won't be?
Because I don't think Apple is utterly dumb. They can see how they're doing in Europe, which is to say, not that good. They know 3G is one of the big factors why that is. They also know price is a major factor too. I can't imagine them ignoring both for a very long period of time... in fact, they've already started to address the price issue, as you can see by the changes in O2 contracts.
We're running in circles. I contend it was pricing of the iPhone and the service.
It was that, and 3G, and a few other things to a lesser extent besides.
The market is big enough to have high end phones specializing in different ways, so I don't think having a high spec camera function would have done much.
My Euro friends appear to disagree with you, as do my multimedia geek US friends. I don't think it matters as much as 3G, but it does seem to matter.
3G capability? Not so sure myself. It's vitally important to have... eventually for everywhere in the world. But this winter, I really don't think it is that big of driver. By this Summer, I think 3G on the iPhone will be absolutely vital with version 2.0 of the OS out.
I think that horse has already left the barn. There's little doubt among most of articles I read and most of the ppl I talk to that 3G is really needed for the iPhone in the European market. And the sooner, the better.
In many ways, the reason why Apple doesn't sell as much in non-NAM countries is because their brand isn't that strong outside of the USA. Improving the brand will be a pretty long term thing for Apple to do, especially in the cell phone market. I'd consider the brand strength to be as big of a factor as prices and features.
I'd say that that same comparative brand-weakness abroad is additional reason to be feature competitive in overseas markets
Apple plays the spec game in a rather unique way as seen in their computer and DAP models. They target the 90% use features and make them as easy and fun to use as possible.
The thing is, Apple is used to walking into markets and dictating the terms... successfully. Look at the iPod. Apple told everyone that certain features were not necessary, and by gumbo, they weren't.
The problem is, the cellphone market isn't the music player market. It's much more established, and there's a lot more competition. People, especially in the more sophisticated markets like Asia and Western Europe, already know what they want, to a large extent.
But if Apple tries to dictate terms and tell the market what it should want, that just isn't going to go over very well. It already hasn't in Western Europe. And can you imagine how badly a 2.5G iPhone would crash and burn in Japan and Korea? Eeyikes.
3G, better functionality, GPS, all those types of things are just part of the long term evolution of the product. As far as camera functionality, well, I think cramming 5+ MP into a camera without the proper sized image sensor and optics, that's a specialization feature to me.
And yet, it sure hasn't hurt cameraphones like the N82 and N95 one whit.
Honestly, there's nothing wrong with the iPhone taking better pictures, having autofocus, a flash, video-recording, etc. It may be 'specialization' to a lot of ppl in the US market, but in Europe and Asia, where they're used to phones having those things, I don't think it's seen that way. And, frankly, I think some of the problem in accurately judging how the iPhone should evolve comes from too many of us having such a "US-centric" view of things.
The most obvious expression of that was how slow many of us were to grasp that, yup, 3G really was important.
I'd be more okay with that 'US-centricness' if the US market was the phone technology leader. But it's not... in fact, the situation is almost exactly the opposite of that. Asia and Western Europe are quite a bit ahead of us in a number of things cellphone-related.
But at least not software, and we have Apple to thank for that bit of good news.
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And who is going to print out a picture from a phone at 8 x 10? 2 megapixels is already full 1920 x 1080 HD resolution, and that's the largest format anybody is ever going to view them at. And if you e-mail one of these pics to anybody without reducing it enormously, they're going to put you on their block list!
Actually, 3G is used for talk time with this technology (HSDPA).
Yes that's true. I was thinking about EDGE.
What I'm pointing out is, if Apple had wanted to get a 3G iPhone out in time for the Euro launch back in November, they could've... lower power consumption 3G chipsets were already available back then.
Obviously they were not interested in doing this. One problem with this is that it would have split the iPhone production line. As Apple ramped iPhone production it would have cost more to manufacture than it does now.
So Steve wanted it all... the batt life and the absolute slimmest form factor. To get that required not just a low power consumption 3G chipset, like what the 'Jack II had, but something even better/lower power-- the Broadcom chipset. This is why we're still waiting for a 3G iPhone.
Well we don't know everything Apple knows. They are likely waiting for chips even better than what the BJ 2 uses.
Jobs said he wanted 5+ hours of talk time, and the 'Jack II got over 6.
But the BJ 2 only got 4 hours of internet time versus the iPhone's 5. Also interesting the BJ 2 got 7 hours of music playback while the Pearl lasted 12, the iPhone 10. When they tested the iPhone using the included ear buds they got 31 hours and 48 minutes of music playback.
This doesn't seem a big obstacle. On my current 'nothing special' flip phone, I can set the screen backlight to dim after 7 seconds of no input (and talking isn't considered input).
I'm not sure what your point is. Your flip phone screen does not take the same amount of energy as the iPhone screen.
I'm just letting you know the screen does not always automatically turn off just because you are on a call.
Even Teno's not completely hopeless. After all, it only took about 300 posts from me and nine months or so of de-programming to make him understand that 3G actually matters.
I've only said this after what I really said has gone through your George Bushian logic of "with us or against us".
My original point about 3G was that the iPhone would sell well in America without 3G because its not as common here. Which originally you argued against. Then once that did not come to pass you moved on to Europe and Asia.
I speculated Apple may wait two years to release a second version of the iPhone. Because everything from accounting to subscriptions on the iPhone were spread across 24 months. Now I see how quickly the mobile phone market changes and adapts. I see they cannot wait that long.
How much does anybody want to bet that when 3G finally gets here, all its supposed advantages are so much horse-hockey, like most of what these techno-geeks are screaming about?
Depends. 3G is a wide term currently covering speeds from 384kbps to 7.2mbps. There would be very little advantage to 3G at the low end speeds over EDGE should you have EDGE available in your area. In Europe however, EDGE isn't very common, whereas 3G is so it's more important even at the low end of 3G.
Secondly, it's not just the data speed that is an issue. Sometimes the main CPU in a phone limits the speed the applications can render data anyway so the data speed is often higher than the phone can cope with. If there's a free bar, you might be able to drink 10 pints of beer an hour but if you can only piss a pint an hour your going to get backed up.
But, more importantly, for those of us that use data, full 3G speeds of 3.6mbps or 7.2mbps which are more common here in Europe are often used with a phone or modem tethered to a laptop. Here, there are people ditching land line based broadband entirely because 3G mobile broadband is actually faster and cheaper for them.
Currently, Apple don't let you tether an iPhone either by Bluetooth or USB and use it as a modem. That's where 3G matters and it's one of the complaints people have with the iPhone. Unlimited data plans are great but you're never going to use much of it if you're stuck with EDGE at best.
And who is going to print out a picture from a phone at 8 x 10? 2 megapixels is already full 1920 x 1080 HD resolution, and that's the largest format anybody is ever going to view them at. And if you e-mail one of these pics to anybody without reducing it enormously, they're going to put you on their block list!
It's all about the resolution. Try printing out a 10x8 at 300dpi (magazine resolution) and a 10x8 at 72dpi (screen resolution) and you'll spot the difference immediately.
If you'd not spotted it yet, Apple Mail also has the option to reduce the image size. I don't know if they added that to the iphone but they should. If the iPhone supported MMS, it'd reduce the size to a sensible size already.
How much does anybody want to bet that when 3G finally gets here, all its supposed advantages are so much horse-hockey, like most of what these techno-geeks are screaming about?
Your location speak volumes about your understanding and usage of 3G. Your argument is that of" A Porsche doesn't matter because I don't have one". I can say after living here in Europe and other parts of the world were 3G speeds are common place, EDGE is a huge disappointment but one I live with currently. I do almost no browsing with the iPhone unless I am connected via wifi, and only check my emails once and a while. EDGE is just to slow. Before you summarily dismiss a technology that you obviously have not experience, you should do some research first or if you are not sure, it would be better not to say anything at all.
Many of the users of the higher data speeds are not in the "tech" realm but users that like to stream radio over their phones, or use video conferencing on their phones. Ever hear of Fring? Try doing that on the iPhone, or using a VoIP application. I would say your knowledge of the uses and technologies involved are quite limited.
Your location speak volumes about your understanding and usage of 3G. Your argument is that of" A Porsche doesn't matter because I don't have one". I can say after living here in Europe and other parts of the world were 3G speeds are common place, EDGE is a huge disappointment but one I live with currently. I do almost no browsing with the iPhone unless I am connected via wifi, and only check my emails once and a while. EDGE is just to slow. Before you summarily dismiss a technology that you obviously have not experience, you should do some research first or if you are not sure, it would be better not to say anything at all.
Many of the users of the higher data speeds are not in the "tech" realm but users that like to stream radio over their phones, or use video conferencing on their phones. Ever hear of http://forums.appleinsider.com/image...eyes.gifFring? Try doing that on the iPhone, or using a VoIP application. I would say your knowledge of the uses and technologies involved are quite limited.
Ouch. A little mean, but probably somewhat true.
I do think there's a bit of a "If the iPhone doesn't have it, then I must not need it" attitude among some, coupled of course with an overly US-centric view of the cellphone market. It's great to be so supportive of Apple, but... c'mon. This is Apple's first effort (the ROKR was a Motorola, Apple just supplied software), and no one gets it perfect the first time.
They will do better than Microsoft though. That's the company where even its own fans say, "Yeah, okay, it IS pure sh*t, but just wait until version THREE!!"
I mean, Apple certainly does have its Kool-aid drinkers, but I think you have be quaffing the entire Kool-aid TRUCK to be a huge MS fan these days.
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Yes that's true. I was thinking about EDGE.
Yep, it's confusing. And of course, if you were outside of a 3G coverage area, ATT's GSM network would then handle voice. There's multiple networks to consider.
Obviously they were not interested in doing this. One problem with this is that it would have split the iPhone production line. As Apple ramped iPhone production it would have cost more to manufacture than it does now.
Meh. When a 3G iPhone shows up, one of two things will happen:
a) The EDGE iPhone goes away, and the 3G iPhone is what is sold worldwide, in all markets. No splitting of production between two significantly different models there. Or...
b) The EDGE iPhone hangs around as a 'low end' cheaper model. In which case, what's the difference between splitting production back then and splitting production now?
They are likely waiting for chips even better than what the BJ 2 uses.
They are, and likely for the reasons I mentioned. I just think Jobs didn't tell the whole story when he blamed it all on battery life, but that isn't really a shocker, now is it?
But the BJ 2 only got 4 hours of internet time versus the iPhone's 5.
I'm just going by what Jobs said, though I'd certainly understand if you were to say that he didn't go far enough. But, getting only 1 hour less browsing time than the iPhone isn't that huge a difference... pretty nice accomplishment, considering the iPhone is EDGE.
I'm just letting you know the screen does not always automatically turn off just because you are on a call.
I'm just saying it wouldn't be too terribly difficult to make it so that the screen turns off after a few seconds during a call if there's no screen input, even a call that involves a headset.
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I've only said this after what I really said has gone through your George Bushian logic of "with us or against us".
My original point about 3G was that the iPhone would sell well in America without 3G because its not as common here. Which originally you argued against. Then once that did not come to pass you moved on to Europe and Asia.
I speculated Apple may wait two years to release a second version of the iPhone. Because everything from accounting to subscriptions on the iPhone were spread across 24 months. Now I see how quickly the mobile phone market changes and adapts. I see they cannot wait that long.
Ouch. George Bush comparisons? Now you're just being vicious, Teno.
In any case T, I will agree with you that the iPhone has sold well in the US even being EDGE-only. That said, I don't think any of us doubts that when the 3G version launches, there should be a very nice US sales spike.
What was annoying to me, however, was how dismissive you were of 3G, for any market, for the longest time. Your 'two years' comments were ludicrous, and if you'd been paying attention at all to the European and Asian markets back then, you would've known that.
It's not just about the cellphone market changing rapidly... its about the changes that have already taken place in the major non-US markets. Asia and Europe just have higher expectations for what a cellphone should be than the US does, in general, and especially at the high-end. And you either address a market's expectations, or you try to change those expectations by dictating to the market instead.
I think you know which of those approaches I think works, and which one I think is likely to fall on its face.
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