Both you are vinea are arguing what is adequate and what satisfactory - and there's plenty that can fall into that category. But buyers, and not just performance buyers, have proven time and again that adequate and satisfactory just doesn't cut it - otherwise we'd all be running Mac mini Core Solos and Celeron Inspirons. I'm honestly baffled at both your reactions against performance machines. Is it because Apple doesn't have a price-competitive entry in the performance consumer space or something?
Also, I'm not seeing where in the Dell blog you are reading that they equate gaming rigs with all performance machines. The blog entry I linked to was a direct rebuttal to the article stating that Dell is discontinuing their XPS Gaming series. The blog didn't address any other XPS line because the other XPS lines weren't part of the issue.
And why would Dell want to eliminate either Alienware or XPS? Both lines are doing well (XPS Notebooks are doing especially well) and are making huge margins, as the high-end tends to do. The mistake would be to eliminate two of their bigger consumer line profit centers when the company as a whole is doing poorly.
I've got no axe to grind against Dell or AW. But gaming and enthusiast rigs are an ever diminishing niche in the pc market. The data from Ars only backs this up. If Dell do eliminate the XPS as was reported from Ars and Anand, they would be making a wise decision IMO. Might as well face the truth rather than pretend otherwise.
As for the Dell blog referring to gamers, here's the quote from the link YOU provided:
We love gamers. We love gaming. And much like we want to win every game we play, we want to lead in this market. Simple really. So that?s why we?re investing so much in the gaming systems of the future ? we want those on an Alienware or XPS to reign supreme.
Both you are vinea are arguing what is adequate and what satisfactory - and there's plenty that can fall into that category. But buyers, and not just performance buyers, have proven time and again that adequate and satisfactory just doesn't cut it - otherwise we'd all be running Mac mini Core Solos and Celeron Inspirons. I'm honestly baffled at both your reactions against performance machines. Is it because Apple doesn't have a price-competitive entry in the performance consumer space or something?
Nope. Apple doesn't have an offering by choice and it works for them. That has nothing to do with your assertions.
I'm saying that gamers have been driving the performance desktops for while and remain so. The buyers of C2E machines are IMHO still largely gamers. You've provided no data to contradict that and you acknowledge that's been the case in the past.
For the most part, I'd say most folks are happy with mid-range performance that lies in a nice bang-for-the-buck ratio. Which performance PCs (and iMacs and Minis for that matter) do NOT belong.
Nothing against performance machines but they do serve a particular niche market. That market is gaming and not "lifestyle".
I've got no axe to grind against Dell or AW. But gaming and enthusiast rigs are an ever diminishing niche in the pc market. The data from Ars only backs this up. If Dell do eliminate the XPS as was reported from Ars and Anand, they would be making a wise decision IMO. Might as well face the truth rather than pretend otherwise.
As for the Dell blog referring to gamers, here's the quote from the link YOU provided:
We love gamers. We love gaming. And much like we want to win every game we play, we want to lead in this market. Simple really. So that?s why we?re investing so much in the gaming systems of the future ? we want those on an Alienware or XPS to reign supreme.
Its at the bottom FYI.
Seriously, why do people like you and vinea have to attack anyone who isn't exactly like you. Are you guys that insecure? Yes gaming is a niche. Yes, light professional systems are a niche. So are all in ones, small form factor desktops, premium thin and light notebooks, and ultraportables. I don't see you railing against them in favor of consumer oriented desktops. Oh right, that because Apple makes and since Apple is perfect (and therefore you guys) it must be the only right choice. Of course if Apple did happen to make such a machine, I would image you would immediately get on the bandwagon.
Seriously, why do people like you and vinea have to attack anyone who isn't exactly like you. Are you guys that insecure? Yes gaming is a niche. Yes, light professional systems are a niche. So are all in ones, small form factor desktops, premium thin and light notebooks, and ultraportables. I don't see you railing against them in favor of consumer oriented desktops. Oh right, that because Apple makes and since Apple is perfect (and therefore you guys) it must be the only right choice. Of course if Apple did happen to make such a machine, I would image you would immediately get on the bandwagon.
From where I'm sitting the only one attacking is you.
The whole purpose of starting this thread is to show people that Apple isn't the only vendor backing away from desktops. While Dell is insisting that they are not eliminating the XPS line, I think the handwriting is on the wall. Time will tell.
Again I have no ax to grind against the xMac, AW machines or XPS machines. But I'm can see the world for what it is and not necessarily what I would like it to be.
Most of my above response to vinea applies to your argument as well, but two points:
1. I was the one who referred to Alienware as a boutique product.
2. Enthusiasts and Gamers have never made up "most users", just as Mac and Linux owners are not "most users". Using the argument of what "most users" want is going to fall flat here since we're talking about a group of users who by definition are not most users, they're power users, early adopters and setting the trends.
I don't know about number two. In the past, Mac users had above average tasks, but for the most part Apple is kicking us to the curb in favor of more trendy type users. Most of the target audience I know is spending most of their time surfing myspace, chatting through IM, uploading pictures, and playing that god awful stuff that passes as music these days. Most of the current Mac crop of Mac users don't have that pressing of tasks and quite frankly don't know that much about computers beyond using them. Then again, can Apple count on them to be as loyal as they were? Better yet, if they keep soley focusing of trendy users, can they count on us to continue being loyal?
From where I'm sitting the only one attacking is you.
The whole purpose of starting this thread is to show people that Apple isn't the only vendor backing away from desktops. While Dell is insisting that they are not eliminating the XPS line, I think the handwriting is on the wall. Time will tell.
Again I have no ax to grind against the xMac, AW machines or XPS machines. But I'm can see the world for what it is and not necessarily what I would like it to be.
If you had no axe to grind why did you start this thread then other than to rub it in the face of the xMac/low end Powermac crowd?
Seriously, why do people like you and vinea have to attack anyone who isn't exactly like you.
Disagreement isn't an attack. That you get all huffy everytime someone says an xMac isn't required is not my problem.
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I don't see you railing against them in favor of consumer oriented desktops.
And no one rails against the xMac. People disagree that it is required for Apple to make one. No one has stated it isn't desirable for some folks. Just that Apple doesn't care about that market segment or those folks.
For Apple, their current strategy makes business sense to them. There's no vast anti-xMac conspiracy.
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Oh right, that because Apple makes and since Apple is perfect (and therefore you guys) it must be the only right choice. Of course if Apple did happen to make such a machine, I would image you would immediately get on the bandwagon.
Except for the fact that I've said in the past that I'd buy an xMac if Apple made one. I'd rather buy an xMac than a mini because I do game but it's not worth getting a Mac Pro to do so.
But I don't act like a whiney little girl and demand that Apple makes one (in every damned thread) or I'll stomp my little feet and never buy another Mac and won't Apple be sorry such loyal customers like me abandon them. *uber pout*
If you had no axe to grind why did you start this thread then other than to rub it in the face of the xMac/low end Powermac crowd?
The whole purpose of starting this thread is to show people that Apple isn't the only vendor backing away from desktops. While Dell is insisting that they are not eliminating the XPS line, I think the handwriting is on the wall. Time will tell.
They're not backing away, they are consolidating two lines that do the same thing into one line. They chose Alienware to do it instead of XPS. The only models that are really being dropped are ones they compete against themselves.
They're not backing away, they are consolidating two lines that do the same thing into one line. They chose Alienware to do it instead of XPS. The only models that are really being dropped are ones they compete against themselves.
Back away or not...desktop sales are on the decline in the US and (western) Europe. Except for Apples that is.
Given that AIO's have better margins and you force a monitor sale when folks refresh (as opposed to giving one away) there's no surprise that Dell is offering one now.
They're not backing away, they are consolidating two lines that do the same thing into one line. They chose Alienware to do it instead of XPS. The only models that are really being dropped are ones they compete against themselves.
Yes but that's a net reduction in the number of desktop machines offered especially in the gaming/enthusiast space.
I also expect this trend to continue but that is certainly debatable. I wouldn't be surprised to see Dell's product line move towards Apple's in the future except that they will almost certainly offer a traditional 'box'. But I don't think they'll continue to offer multitudes of box machines like they do now. Is there really a need to have Vostro, Optiplex, Precision, Inspiron and XPS lines of desktops? With the limitless ability to configure? I don't think so.
As for the Dell blog referring to gamers, here's the quote from the link YOU provided:
We love gamers. We love gaming. And much like we want to win every game we play, we want to lead in this market. Simple really. So that?s why we?re investing so much in the gaming systems of the future ? we want those on an Alienware or XPS to reign supreme.
Its at the bottom FYI.
That's not what I asked. I asked where in the blog it's equating all performance machines to gaming rigs, not where it mentions gamers.
I think the big confusion here is, and vinea's comment about mid-range performance is what I think made me realize there might be a misunderstanding here, that I am talking about the entire XPS line of desktops - XPS Performance, XPS One, and XPS Gaming. I don't disagree that the high, high end - the XPS machines sold to consumers that run $2.5k+, are likely still mostly the domain of the gamers. That $2K+ is also where Alienware's product line resides.
However, my point is to take the entire XPS line, all the way down to those low end XPS Performance rigs that start around $900. That performance space is certainly NOT the exclusive arena of gamers. The Dell XPS line does encompass the mid-range performance (what I was talking lifestyle, and I think where the disagreement came) as well as the high end.
And since Dell has publicly refuted the Wall Street Journal sourced article, it's kind of an empty argument, as least for now, to continue arguing that Dell is making a "net reduction in the number of desktop machines" when they are actually increasing the number of offerings in that market in the short term.
That's not what I asked. I asked where in the blog it's equating all performance machines to gaming rigs, not where it mentions gamers.
Quote from Dell link:
While closely associated with gaming, in the last year XPS has expanded well beyond a gaming brand
Even they acknowledge the XPS line is associated with gaming. Yes they try to associate the XPS line with their AIO line and ultra portable machines but in the end they defend the XPS line by saying:
We love gamers. We love gaming. And much like we want to win every game we play, we want to lead in this market. Simple really. So that?s why we?re investing so much in the gaming systems of the future ? we want those on an Alienware or XPS to reign supreme.
Its what they said. I'm not making this up. While they may hope to expand the XPS/AW line beyond gaming they seem to acknowledge that those lines raison d'être is ... gaming.
I think the big confusion here is, and vinea's comment about mid-range performance is what I think made me realize there might be a misunderstanding here, that I am talking about the entire XPS line of desktops - XPS Performance, XPS One, and XPS Gaming.
Um, the XPS One is a AIO...like the iMac.
The $900 XPS 420 has a Q6600 Quad Core, 3GB, 320GB HDD and a ATI HD 2400 PRO
The $800 Inspiron 530 has a Q6600, 3GB RAM, 500GB HDD and a ATI HD 2400 PRO
The 420 IS a little nicer than the 530 but performance wise it's still a mid grade box. It does reach "high-performance" levels with a 435W PSU amd a QX9650 but you're probably better off with a 730 if you're going to buy a $2.5K rig...
The 730 gaming rigs are...well gaming rigs associated with...gamers. Not saying that some "lifestyle" users aren't buying lower end 730s that are upper-mid ranged performance but danged few are equipping them with Extremes or dual GPUs.
If I wasn't going to buy a new $600 Inspiron every year as a lifestyle user I'd probably go the route of getting a higher end 730 with the intent of keeping it a few years.
Of course, at this point I'm in Mac Pro price territory...if I can live with a 4 year replacement cycle its kinda a wash between the $600 inspiron route and the mac pro route.
The limitation with the Mac lineup is that the $600 mini doesn't get a refresh often enough for the "buy cheap and replace often" strategy to work.
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I don't disagree that the high, high end - the XPS machines sold to consumers that run $2.5k+, are likely still mostly the domain of the gamers. That $2K+ is also where Alienware's product line resides.
I'm glad we finally agree that high performance machines are driven by gamers.
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However, my point is to take the entire XPS line, all the way down to those low end XPS Performance rigs that start around $900. That performance space is certainly NOT the exclusive arena of gamers.
Well, when you redefine the "performance space" to mid grade computers that include Inspirons and AIOs similar to the iMac then no, it isn't the exclusive arena of gamers.
Of course...it's a rather bogus definition of the "performance space" given few folks would consider the iMac a "performance machine".
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The Dell XPS line does encompass the mid-range performance (what I was talking lifestyle, and I think where the disagreement came) as well as the high end.
And mid-range performance is not a "performance" machine except in marketing. The Apple consumer line is designed for lifestyle uses and not high-performance so it fits the bill quite nicely and is continually improved upon by Apple.
Where does the iMac fall down from a performance perspective? It doesn't offer either top CPU options (extreme) or top GPU options. Who typically wants these? The agreed upon gamers.
Well, when you redefine the "performance space" to mid grade computers that include Inspirons and AIOs similar to the iMac then no, it isn't the exclusive arena of gamers.
Of course...it's a rather bogus definition of the "performance space" given few folks would consider the iMac a "performance machine".
And mid-range performance is not a "performance" machine except in marketing. The Apple consumer line is designed for lifestyle uses and not high-performance so it fits the bill quite nicely and is continually improved upon by Apple.
The subject of this thread is "Dell dropping XPS line" and the rationale yourself and backtomac have insisted on is that the XPS line is performance machines and performance machines are the near exclusive domain of gamers. I've argued that the XPS line is defined by Dell as their performance line and not the exclusive domain of gamers. I'm not redefining anything when this is how Dell is choosing to present their lineup. Even if it is just marketing, it doesn't change the fact that Dell brands rigs that, in your opinion, aren't "performance" as XPS. You brought up mid-range performance, which the XPS line also clearly encompasses, and the machines they offer in that market are certainly not in the exclusive realm of gamers.
I've tried to argue the separation between the XPS Gaming, XPS Performance, XPS Notebook, and even the XPS One lineup, a distinction both you and backtomac have ignored until now and are now using to argue that I'm redefining my argument. Yes, the XPS One is an AIO. It's also still an XPS machine and one that therefore falls into both your arguments that as part of a declining market for high end performance gaming machines. Under that logic, the XPS One should be dropped as well unless the XPS One doesn't qualify in your definition as an XPS machine. The problem then becomes, the XPS One is an XPS machine.
Oh... and while no longer in their lineup, Apple did offer a Core 2 Extreme iMac until the recent refresh when they got their exclusive 3.06GHz Penryn to replace it. Obviously as a custom chip for Apple, not easy to do side by sides, but it sounds like this chip outperforms the 2.8GHz C2E it replaces.
Wow talk about a misleading title. Its so mis-leading Im surprised AI didn't use it on the front page.
Hey, when I started the thread it was reported by the Wall Street Journal that Dell was dropping the XPS line. What's misleading about that? Dell has subsequently denied this but when the thread was started that was what was in print.
That the thread has veered off course a little is par for the course.
The subject of this thread is "Dell dropping XPS line" and the rationale yourself and backtomac have insisted on is that the XPS line is performance machines and performance machines are the near exclusive domain of gamers. I've argued that the XPS line is defined by Dell as their performance line and not the exclusive domain of gamers.
Fair enough. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
The subject of this thread is "Dell dropping XPS line" and the rationale yourself and backtomac have insisted on is that the XPS line is performance machines and performance machines are the near exclusive domain of gamers. I've argued that the XPS line is defined by Dell as their performance line and not the exclusive domain of gamers.
I was responding to your comment:
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Originally Posted by RexTraverse
I don't disagree that the PC game market is on the decline right now. But the problem I am having with your argument is that you seem to argue because PC gaming is on the decline, therefore the whole market for performance PCs is on the decline. My argument is that there will always be a strong market for high-end enthusiast machines independent of games because not all enthusiasts are gamers.
You changed your position later so now there is no disagreement.
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Originally Posted by RexTraverse
And high-end processing power and graphics power can and is used for more than gaming. People are making home movies, doing moderate to advanced photography work, working and mixing music. All this benefits from higher processing power, and with the video and photography work, graphical processing power as well. And this is the age of the prosumer - amateurs with a passion who are using professional level equipment and software to achieve their results.
Again, high-end processing power. Not mid-grade...high-end includes the XPS Performance line (420) when you stick in a QX9650 and a high end GPU in one since there's only minor price and performance difference between that and a 720 gaming rig (still cheaper and slower than the 730HC)
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I'm not redefining anything when this is how Dell is choosing to present their lineup.
I quoted what you wrote and responded to them in each case. The specifics discussion was about "high-end processing" and graphics. Note how I didn't address how Dell names their machines except to show that it's largely for marketing and segmentation?
The Inspiron 530 is clearly their budget line but ramps up to the low end 420.
The XPS 420 performance line is clearly their mid-range line but ramps up to the high end 730.
The XPS 730 gaming line is their high-end line.
XPS notebooks and AIOs are outside the discussion to a certain degree. Neither are traditional desktops (i.e. towers) like the xMac would be.
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Even if it is just marketing, it doesn't change the fact that Dell brands rigs that, in your opinion, aren't "performance" as XPS. You brought up mid-range performance, which the XPS line also clearly encompasses, and the machines they offer in that market are certainly not in the exclusive realm of gamers.
Except that YOU ALSO equated them with "high-end processing power and graphics power" as seen in the quotes above. Q6600 Quad Core and ATI HD 2400 PRO do not qualify as "high end".
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I've tried to argue the separation between the XPS Gaming, XPS Performance, XPS Notebook, and even the XPS One lineup, a distinction both you and backtomac have ignored until now and are now using to argue that I'm redefining my argument. Yes, the XPS One is an AIO. It's also still an XPS machine and one that therefore falls into both your arguments that as part of a declining market for high end performance gaming machines.
Except that it ISN'T a high-end performance gaming machine.
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Under that logic, the XPS One should be dropped as well unless the XPS One doesn't qualify in your definition as an XPS machine. The problem then becomes, the XPS One is an XPS machine.
There's no problem here, especially I believe that backtomac is arguing that Dell is moving from a high-end gaming focus to a mid-range lifestyle focus like Apple's with their XPS line...pointing at the XPS One as an example of that change in focus.
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Oh... and while no longer in their lineup, Apple did offer a Core 2 Extreme iMac until the recent refresh when they got their exclusive 3.06GHz Penryn to replace it. Obviously as a custom chip for Apple, not easy to do side by sides, but it sounds like this chip outperforms the 2.8GHz C2E it replaces.
The 2.8Ghz mobile C2E it replaced had half the cores of the desktop counterpart and a slower FSB. On a same generation basis the mobile parts do lag the equivalent desktop parts. That's not to say that the top end iMac is slow. But you're into low end Mac Pro pricing and performance...a single 2.8Ghz quad Xeon with a 8800 GT is $2400. If you already own a 24" or better monitor I'd rather get that for a couple hundred more over the 24" 3.06Ghz iMac.
And of course, a top end Dell Gaming rig will run rings around it...which I would hope so since it's nearly 3 times the price running at 3.8Ghz and dual ATI 3870X2s...
In any case, desktops in both the US and western Europe have been on the decline. Not slowing growth...actual decline. Consolidation in product lines can be expected in that kind of market.
Comments
Both you are vinea are arguing what is adequate and what satisfactory - and there's plenty that can fall into that category. But buyers, and not just performance buyers, have proven time and again that adequate and satisfactory just doesn't cut it - otherwise we'd all be running Mac mini Core Solos and Celeron Inspirons. I'm honestly baffled at both your reactions against performance machines. Is it because Apple doesn't have a price-competitive entry in the performance consumer space or something?
Also, I'm not seeing where in the Dell blog you are reading that they equate gaming rigs with all performance machines. The blog entry I linked to was a direct rebuttal to the article stating that Dell is discontinuing their XPS Gaming series. The blog didn't address any other XPS line because the other XPS lines weren't part of the issue.
And why would Dell want to eliminate either Alienware or XPS? Both lines are doing well (XPS Notebooks are doing especially well) and are making huge margins, as the high-end tends to do. The mistake would be to eliminate two of their bigger consumer line profit centers when the company as a whole is doing poorly.
I've got no axe to grind against Dell or AW. But gaming and enthusiast rigs are an ever diminishing niche in the pc market. The data from Ars only backs this up. If Dell do eliminate the XPS as was reported from Ars and Anand, they would be making a wise decision IMO. Might as well face the truth rather than pretend otherwise.
As for the Dell blog referring to gamers, here's the quote from the link YOU provided:
We love gamers. We love gaming. And much like we want to win every game we play, we want to lead in this market. Simple really. So that?s why we?re investing so much in the gaming systems of the future ? we want those on an Alienware or XPS to reign supreme.
Its at the bottom FYI.
Both you are vinea are arguing what is adequate and what satisfactory - and there's plenty that can fall into that category. But buyers, and not just performance buyers, have proven time and again that adequate and satisfactory just doesn't cut it - otherwise we'd all be running Mac mini Core Solos and Celeron Inspirons. I'm honestly baffled at both your reactions against performance machines. Is it because Apple doesn't have a price-competitive entry in the performance consumer space or something?
Nope. Apple doesn't have an offering by choice and it works for them. That has nothing to do with your assertions.
I'm saying that gamers have been driving the performance desktops for while and remain so. The buyers of C2E machines are IMHO still largely gamers. You've provided no data to contradict that and you acknowledge that's been the case in the past.
For the most part, I'd say most folks are happy with mid-range performance that lies in a nice bang-for-the-buck ratio. Which performance PCs (and iMacs and Minis for that matter) do NOT belong.
Nothing against performance machines but they do serve a particular niche market. That market is gaming and not "lifestyle".
I've got no axe to grind against Dell or AW. But gaming and enthusiast rigs are an ever diminishing niche in the pc market. The data from Ars only backs this up. If Dell do eliminate the XPS as was reported from Ars and Anand, they would be making a wise decision IMO. Might as well face the truth rather than pretend otherwise.
As for the Dell blog referring to gamers, here's the quote from the link YOU provided:
We love gamers. We love gaming. And much like we want to win every game we play, we want to lead in this market. Simple really. So that?s why we?re investing so much in the gaming systems of the future ? we want those on an Alienware or XPS to reign supreme.
Its at the bottom FYI.
Seriously, why do people like you and vinea have to attack anyone who isn't exactly like you. Are you guys that insecure? Yes gaming is a niche. Yes, light professional systems are a niche. So are all in ones, small form factor desktops, premium thin and light notebooks, and ultraportables. I don't see you railing against them in favor of consumer oriented desktops. Oh right, that because Apple makes and since Apple is perfect (and therefore you guys) it must be the only right choice. Of course if Apple did happen to make such a machine, I would image you would immediately get on the bandwagon.
Seriously, why do people like you and vinea have to attack anyone who isn't exactly like you. Are you guys that insecure? Yes gaming is a niche. Yes, light professional systems are a niche. So are all in ones, small form factor desktops, premium thin and light notebooks, and ultraportables. I don't see you railing against them in favor of consumer oriented desktops. Oh right, that because Apple makes and since Apple is perfect (and therefore you guys) it must be the only right choice. Of course if Apple did happen to make such a machine, I would image you would immediately get on the bandwagon.
From where I'm sitting the only one attacking is you.
The whole purpose of starting this thread is to show people that Apple isn't the only vendor backing away from desktops. While Dell is insisting that they are not eliminating the XPS line, I think the handwriting is on the wall. Time will tell.
Again I have no ax to grind against the xMac, AW machines or XPS machines. But I'm can see the world for what it is and not necessarily what I would like it to be.
Most of my above response to vinea applies to your argument as well, but two points:
1. I was the one who referred to Alienware as a boutique product.
2. Enthusiasts and Gamers have never made up "most users", just as Mac and Linux owners are not "most users". Using the argument of what "most users" want is going to fall flat here since we're talking about a group of users who by definition are not most users, they're power users, early adopters and setting the trends.
I don't know about number two. In the past, Mac users had above average tasks, but for the most part Apple is kicking us to the curb in favor of more trendy type users. Most of the target audience I know is spending most of their time surfing myspace, chatting through IM, uploading pictures, and playing that god awful stuff that passes as music these days. Most of the current Mac crop of Mac users don't have that pressing of tasks and quite frankly don't know that much about computers beyond using them. Then again, can Apple count on them to be as loyal as they were? Better yet, if they keep soley focusing of trendy users, can they count on us to continue being loyal?
From where I'm sitting the only one attacking is you.
The whole purpose of starting this thread is to show people that Apple isn't the only vendor backing away from desktops. While Dell is insisting that they are not eliminating the XPS line, I think the handwriting is on the wall. Time will tell.
Again I have no ax to grind against the xMac, AW machines or XPS machines. But I'm can see the world for what it is and not necessarily what I would like it to be.
If you had no axe to grind why did you start this thread then other than to rub it in the face of the xMac/low end Powermac crowd?
Seriously, why do people like you and vinea have to attack anyone who isn't exactly like you.
Disagreement isn't an attack. That you get all huffy everytime someone says an xMac isn't required is not my problem.
I don't see you railing against them in favor of consumer oriented desktops.
And no one rails against the xMac. People disagree that it is required for Apple to make one. No one has stated it isn't desirable for some folks. Just that Apple doesn't care about that market segment or those folks.
For Apple, their current strategy makes business sense to them. There's no vast anti-xMac conspiracy.
Oh right, that because Apple makes and since Apple is perfect (and therefore you guys) it must be the only right choice. Of course if Apple did happen to make such a machine, I would image you would immediately get on the bandwagon.
Except for the fact that I've said in the past that I'd buy an xMac if Apple made one. I'd rather buy an xMac than a mini because I do game but it's not worth getting a Mac Pro to do so.
But I don't act like a whiney little girl and demand that Apple makes one (in every damned thread) or I'll stomp my little feet and never buy another Mac and won't Apple be sorry such loyal customers like me abandon them. *uber pout*
Okay...THAT'S an attack. See the difference?
If you had no axe to grind why did you start this thread then other than to rub it in the face of the xMac/low end Powermac crowd?
The whole purpose of starting this thread is to show people that Apple isn't the only vendor backing away from desktops. While Dell is insisting that they are not eliminating the XPS line, I think the handwriting is on the wall. Time will tell.
Why don't you just read my post?
They're not backing away, they are consolidating two lines that do the same thing into one line. They chose Alienware to do it instead of XPS. The only models that are really being dropped are ones they compete against themselves.
Back away or not...desktop sales are on the decline in the US and (western) Europe. Except for Apples that is.
Given that AIO's have better margins and you force a monitor sale when folks refresh (as opposed to giving one away) there's no surprise that Dell is offering one now.
They're not backing away, they are consolidating two lines that do the same thing into one line. They chose Alienware to do it instead of XPS. The only models that are really being dropped are ones they compete against themselves.
Yes but that's a net reduction in the number of desktop machines offered especially in the gaming/enthusiast space.
I also expect this trend to continue but that is certainly debatable. I wouldn't be surprised to see Dell's product line move towards Apple's in the future except that they will almost certainly offer a traditional 'box'. But I don't think they'll continue to offer multitudes of box machines like they do now. Is there really a need to have Vostro, Optiplex, Precision, Inspiron and XPS lines of desktops? With the limitless ability to configure? I don't think so.
Time will tell.
As for the Dell blog referring to gamers, here's the quote from the link YOU provided:
We love gamers. We love gaming. And much like we want to win every game we play, we want to lead in this market. Simple really. So that?s why we?re investing so much in the gaming systems of the future ? we want those on an Alienware or XPS to reign supreme.
Its at the bottom FYI.
That's not what I asked. I asked where in the blog it's equating all performance machines to gaming rigs, not where it mentions gamers.
I think the big confusion here is, and vinea's comment about mid-range performance is what I think made me realize there might be a misunderstanding here, that I am talking about the entire XPS line of desktops - XPS Performance, XPS One, and XPS Gaming. I don't disagree that the high, high end - the XPS machines sold to consumers that run $2.5k+, are likely still mostly the domain of the gamers. That $2K+ is also where Alienware's product line resides.
However, my point is to take the entire XPS line, all the way down to those low end XPS Performance rigs that start around $900. That performance space is certainly NOT the exclusive arena of gamers. The Dell XPS line does encompass the mid-range performance (what I was talking lifestyle, and I think where the disagreement came) as well as the high end.
And since Dell has publicly refuted the Wall Street Journal sourced article, it's kind of an empty argument, as least for now, to continue arguing that Dell is making a "net reduction in the number of desktop machines" when they are actually increasing the number of offerings in that market in the short term.
That's not what I asked. I asked where in the blog it's equating all performance machines to gaming rigs, not where it mentions gamers.
Quote from Dell link:
While closely associated with gaming, in the last year XPS has expanded well beyond a gaming brand
Even they acknowledge the XPS line is associated with gaming. Yes they try to associate the XPS line with their AIO line and ultra portable machines but in the end they defend the XPS line by saying:
We love gamers. We love gaming. And much like we want to win every game we play, we want to lead in this market. Simple really. So that?s why we?re investing so much in the gaming systems of the future ? we want those on an Alienware or XPS to reign supreme.
Its what they said. I'm not making this up. While they may hope to expand the XPS/AW line beyond gaming they seem to acknowledge that those lines raison d'être is ... gaming.
I think the big confusion here is, and vinea's comment about mid-range performance is what I think made me realize there might be a misunderstanding here, that I am talking about the entire XPS line of desktops - XPS Performance, XPS One, and XPS Gaming.
Um, the XPS One is a AIO...like the iMac.
The $900 XPS 420 has a Q6600 Quad Core, 3GB, 320GB HDD and a ATI HD 2400 PRO
The $800 Inspiron 530 has a Q6600, 3GB RAM, 500GB HDD and a ATI HD 2400 PRO
The 420 IS a little nicer than the 530 but performance wise it's still a mid grade box. It does reach "high-performance" levels with a 435W PSU amd a QX9650 but you're probably better off with a 730 if you're going to buy a $2.5K rig...
The 730 gaming rigs are...well gaming rigs associated with...gamers. Not saying that some "lifestyle" users aren't buying lower end 730s that are upper-mid ranged performance but danged few are equipping them with Extremes or dual GPUs.
If I wasn't going to buy a new $600 Inspiron every year as a lifestyle user I'd probably go the route of getting a higher end 730 with the intent of keeping it a few years.
Of course, at this point I'm in Mac Pro price territory...if I can live with a 4 year replacement cycle its kinda a wash between the $600 inspiron route and the mac pro route.
The limitation with the Mac lineup is that the $600 mini doesn't get a refresh often enough for the "buy cheap and replace often" strategy to work.
I don't disagree that the high, high end - the XPS machines sold to consumers that run $2.5k+, are likely still mostly the domain of the gamers. That $2K+ is also where Alienware's product line resides.
I'm glad we finally agree that high performance machines are driven by gamers.
However, my point is to take the entire XPS line, all the way down to those low end XPS Performance rigs that start around $900. That performance space is certainly NOT the exclusive arena of gamers.
Well, when you redefine the "performance space" to mid grade computers that include Inspirons and AIOs similar to the iMac then no, it isn't the exclusive arena of gamers.
Of course...it's a rather bogus definition of the "performance space" given few folks would consider the iMac a "performance machine".
The Dell XPS line does encompass the mid-range performance (what I was talking lifestyle, and I think where the disagreement came) as well as the high end.
And mid-range performance is not a "performance" machine except in marketing. The Apple consumer line is designed for lifestyle uses and not high-performance so it fits the bill quite nicely and is continually improved upon by Apple.
Where does the iMac fall down from a performance perspective? It doesn't offer either top CPU options (extreme) or top GPU options. Who typically wants these? The agreed upon gamers.
Well, when you redefine the "performance space" to mid grade computers that include Inspirons and AIOs similar to the iMac then no, it isn't the exclusive arena of gamers.
Of course...it's a rather bogus definition of the "performance space" given few folks would consider the iMac a "performance machine".
And mid-range performance is not a "performance" machine except in marketing. The Apple consumer line is designed for lifestyle uses and not high-performance so it fits the bill quite nicely and is continually improved upon by Apple.
The subject of this thread is "Dell dropping XPS line" and the rationale yourself and backtomac have insisted on is that the XPS line is performance machines and performance machines are the near exclusive domain of gamers. I've argued that the XPS line is defined by Dell as their performance line and not the exclusive domain of gamers. I'm not redefining anything when this is how Dell is choosing to present their lineup. Even if it is just marketing, it doesn't change the fact that Dell brands rigs that, in your opinion, aren't "performance" as XPS. You brought up mid-range performance, which the XPS line also clearly encompasses, and the machines they offer in that market are certainly not in the exclusive realm of gamers.
I've tried to argue the separation between the XPS Gaming, XPS Performance, XPS Notebook, and even the XPS One lineup, a distinction both you and backtomac have ignored until now and are now using to argue that I'm redefining my argument. Yes, the XPS One is an AIO. It's also still an XPS machine and one that therefore falls into both your arguments that as part of a declining market for high end performance gaming machines. Under that logic, the XPS One should be dropped as well unless the XPS One doesn't qualify in your definition as an XPS machine. The problem then becomes, the XPS One is an XPS machine.
Oh... and while no longer in their lineup, Apple did offer a Core 2 Extreme iMac until the recent refresh when they got their exclusive 3.06GHz Penryn to replace it. Obviously as a custom chip for Apple, not easy to do side by sides, but it sounds like this chip outperforms the 2.8GHz C2E it replaces.
Wow talk about a misleading title. Its so mis-leading Im surprised AI didn't use it on the front page.
Hey, when I started the thread it was reported by the Wall Street Journal that Dell was dropping the XPS line. What's misleading about that? Dell has subsequently denied this but when the thread was started that was what was in print.
That the thread has veered off course a little is par for the course.
The subject of this thread is "Dell dropping XPS line" and the rationale yourself and backtomac have insisted on is that the XPS line is performance machines and performance machines are the near exclusive domain of gamers. I've argued that the XPS line is defined by Dell as their performance line and not the exclusive domain of gamers.
Fair enough. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
The subject of this thread is "Dell dropping XPS line" and the rationale yourself and backtomac have insisted on is that the XPS line is performance machines and performance machines are the near exclusive domain of gamers. I've argued that the XPS line is defined by Dell as their performance line and not the exclusive domain of gamers.
I was responding to your comment:
I don't disagree that the PC game market is on the decline right now. But the problem I am having with your argument is that you seem to argue because PC gaming is on the decline, therefore the whole market for performance PCs is on the decline. My argument is that there will always be a strong market for high-end enthusiast machines independent of games because not all enthusiasts are gamers.
High-end enthusiast machines <> Dell XPS Performance
You changed your position later so now there is no disagreement.
And high-end processing power and graphics power can and is used for more than gaming. People are making home movies, doing moderate to advanced photography work, working and mixing music. All this benefits from higher processing power, and with the video and photography work, graphical processing power as well. And this is the age of the prosumer - amateurs with a passion who are using professional level equipment and software to achieve their results.
Again, high-end processing power. Not mid-grade...high-end includes the XPS Performance line (420) when you stick in a QX9650 and a high end GPU in one since there's only minor price and performance difference between that and a 720 gaming rig (still cheaper and slower than the 730HC)
I'm not redefining anything when this is how Dell is choosing to present their lineup.
I quoted what you wrote and responded to them in each case. The specifics discussion was about "high-end processing" and graphics. Note how I didn't address how Dell names their machines except to show that it's largely for marketing and segmentation?
The Inspiron 530 is clearly their budget line but ramps up to the low end 420.
The XPS 420 performance line is clearly their mid-range line but ramps up to the high end 730.
The XPS 730 gaming line is their high-end line.
XPS notebooks and AIOs are outside the discussion to a certain degree. Neither are traditional desktops (i.e. towers) like the xMac would be.
Even if it is just marketing, it doesn't change the fact that Dell brands rigs that, in your opinion, aren't "performance" as XPS. You brought up mid-range performance, which the XPS line also clearly encompasses, and the machines they offer in that market are certainly not in the exclusive realm of gamers.
Except that YOU ALSO equated them with "high-end processing power and graphics power" as seen in the quotes above. Q6600 Quad Core and ATI HD 2400 PRO do not qualify as "high end".
I've tried to argue the separation between the XPS Gaming, XPS Performance, XPS Notebook, and even the XPS One lineup, a distinction both you and backtomac have ignored until now and are now using to argue that I'm redefining my argument. Yes, the XPS One is an AIO. It's also still an XPS machine and one that therefore falls into both your arguments that as part of a declining market for high end performance gaming machines.
Except that it ISN'T a high-end performance gaming machine.
Under that logic, the XPS One should be dropped as well unless the XPS One doesn't qualify in your definition as an XPS machine. The problem then becomes, the XPS One is an XPS machine.
There's no problem here, especially I believe that backtomac is arguing that Dell is moving from a high-end gaming focus to a mid-range lifestyle focus like Apple's with their XPS line...pointing at the XPS One as an example of that change in focus.
Oh... and while no longer in their lineup, Apple did offer a Core 2 Extreme iMac until the recent refresh when they got their exclusive 3.06GHz Penryn to replace it. Obviously as a custom chip for Apple, not easy to do side by sides, but it sounds like this chip outperforms the 2.8GHz C2E it replaces.
The 2.8Ghz mobile C2E it replaced had half the cores of the desktop counterpart and a slower FSB. On a same generation basis the mobile parts do lag the equivalent desktop parts. That's not to say that the top end iMac is slow. But you're into low end Mac Pro pricing and performance...a single 2.8Ghz quad Xeon with a 8800 GT is $2400. If you already own a 24" or better monitor I'd rather get that for a couple hundred more over the 24" 3.06Ghz iMac.
And of course, a top end Dell Gaming rig will run rings around it...which I would hope so since it's nearly 3 times the price running at 3.8Ghz and dual ATI 3870X2s...
In any case, desktops in both the US and western Europe have been on the decline. Not slowing growth...actual decline. Consolidation in product lines can be expected in that kind of market.