And the pedophile believes he is well-adjusted, too. His conscience is clear. It's society's rules that are the problem. Read up about the guy who had the pedophile how-to website back last fall that made the news. He said that it was completely natural to him, and he felt no guilt for it. It was only the law that kept him from acting on his impulses.
If 'moral and upstanding' is all relative, then there is no definition of 'moral and upstanding', and anyone can call anything 'moral and upstanding.' Go to death row and you will find many self-proclaimed 'moral and upstanding' people. They'll tell you.
Moral and upstanding is relative. How can you not see that? Why have laws changed tremendously over the years? Even in Christian countries (like most of Europe), laws have changed tremendously over the past thousand years. Even between Christian sects, their morals are different--that's why there are so many varieties of Christianity.
Many Christians would say you are not 'moral and upstanding' for being so judgmental. Others would say you are 'moral and upstanding'. How is that not relativism within Christianity itself?
You have no leg to stand on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality
You're missing the point. I am not talking about the child (or animal) at all. Forget the child. I am saying that the pedophile says, "this is my natural urge", and "God made me like this." This is the same argument used to defend homosexuality -- that it is a natural urge. The pedophile also claims that his urge is natural. The only thing keeping him from the object of his desire -- and this was stated explicitly by that guy in WA who had the how-to pedphelia site -- was the law. It was simple pragmatism.
There are several questions Christians ask about homosexuality:
1. Is it a choice?
2. Is it immoral?
"It is a natural/inborn urge" answers the first question. It does not answer the second question, and no one is claiming that it is.
Logic and debate about what is 'moral and upstanding' answers the second question (i.e, it is 2 consenting adults, so therefore it is nothing like pedophilia or bestiality). In fact, more heterosexuals perform anal sex than homosexuals do (because homosexuals are such a tiny proportion of the population, and even then not all of them perform anal sex, and anal sex among heteros is more common than most people admit)--are all those heterosexuals doomed to hell, too, even if they're Christian in every other way? Why do you (or any Christian) care what heterosexuals do in their own bedroom if they're both consenting adults?
And what about homosexuals that don't do anal sex (there are plenty of them)? Are they doomed to hell? Is it the anal sex that's so bad? Or just the fact that they are head-over-heels in love with each other?
The commandment is "thou shall not murder" -- like killing someone in a personal dispute, a fit of rage, during killing someone to rob them, etc. Killing obviously has to be O.K. in certain circumstances, like when another army is invading your country. Or there's the law that someone is not guilty if he kills a burglar who's invaded his house at night and is defending himself and his family. You want to say the bible contradicts itself because you believe the commandment "thou shall not murder" means you have to let someone kill you.
Actually, according to the earliest ancient Hebrew texts of the Commandments, the phrase is roughly translated as "a person may not kill without permission." It was originally only state/authority sanction that allowed people to kill... even in self-defense (legally, mind you). That was based on the society at the time and the need for the curtailing of unauthorized retributional deaths. Gotta keep that power in the hands of the authorities.
There are some really odd things in the earliest pieces of what became the Bible... but you gotta go to the source. This "translation business" of yours is very confusing. Do you read the King James version of the Bible? Luther's translation? Which? They are all different, you know. In many of the early Greek translations they found that some Hebrew names for God were gender un-specific: neither male, female or it. It just was. The Greeks made a patriarchal choice. Ruled by men, they made God a man. So all your Him, He stuff for God... if you go back far enough, is incorrect. Just plain wrong translation. There's a whole bunch of that stuff.
Hey, let's not get hung up on Pedophilia, according to Moses, it's fine. That and child murder.
Numbers 31:13-18 (King James Version)
And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Yeah boys, keep em for yourself. You know what to do with em.
The links above are used to infect a Mac with one of the only X-trojans out there in the wild. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...3154943AAJ9Mrx So... until the mods squash this, don't be tempted by the offer of Live Group Sex.
Comments
And the pedophile believes he is well-adjusted, too. His conscience is clear. It's society's rules that are the problem. Read up about the guy who had the pedophile how-to website back last fall that made the news. He said that it was completely natural to him, and he felt no guilt for it. It was only the law that kept him from acting on his impulses.
If 'moral and upstanding' is all relative, then there is no definition of 'moral and upstanding', and anyone can call anything 'moral and upstanding.' Go to death row and you will find many self-proclaimed 'moral and upstanding' people. They'll tell you.
Moral and upstanding is relative. How can you not see that? Why have laws changed tremendously over the years? Even in Christian countries (like most of Europe), laws have changed tremendously over the past thousand years. Even between Christian sects, their morals are different--that's why there are so many varieties of Christianity.
Many Christians would say you are not 'moral and upstanding' for being so judgmental. Others would say you are 'moral and upstanding'. How is that not relativism within Christianity itself?
You have no leg to stand on.
You're missing the point. I am not talking about the child (or animal) at all. Forget the child. I am saying that the pedophile says, "this is my natural urge", and "God made me like this." This is the same argument used to defend homosexuality -- that it is a natural urge. The pedophile also claims that his urge is natural. The only thing keeping him from the object of his desire -- and this was stated explicitly by that guy in WA who had the how-to pedphelia site -- was the law. It was simple pragmatism.
There are several questions Christians ask about homosexuality:
1. Is it a choice?
2. Is it immoral?
"It is a natural/inborn urge" answers the first question. It does not answer the second question, and no one is claiming that it is.
Logic and debate about what is 'moral and upstanding' answers the second question (i.e, it is 2 consenting adults, so therefore it is nothing like pedophilia or bestiality). In fact, more heterosexuals perform anal sex than homosexuals do (because homosexuals are such a tiny proportion of the population, and even then not all of them perform anal sex, and anal sex among heteros is more common than most people admit)--are all those heterosexuals doomed to hell, too, even if they're Christian in every other way? Why do you (or any Christian) care what heterosexuals do in their own bedroom if they're both consenting adults?
And what about homosexuals that don't do anal sex (there are plenty of them)? Are they doomed to hell? Is it the anal sex that's so bad? Or just the fact that they are head-over-heels in love with each other?
The commandment is "thou shall not murder" -- like killing someone in a personal dispute, a fit of rage, during killing someone to rob them, etc. Killing obviously has to be O.K. in certain circumstances, like when another army is invading your country. Or there's the law that someone is not guilty if he kills a burglar who's invaded his house at night and is defending himself and his family. You want to say the bible contradicts itself because you believe the commandment "thou shall not murder" means you have to let someone kill you.
Actually, according to the earliest ancient Hebrew texts of the Commandments, the phrase is roughly translated as "a person may not kill without permission." It was originally only state/authority sanction that allowed people to kill... even in self-defense (legally, mind you). That was based on the society at the time and the need for the curtailing of unauthorized retributional deaths. Gotta keep that power in the hands of the authorities.
There are some really odd things in the earliest pieces of what became the Bible... but you gotta go to the source. This "translation business" of yours is very confusing. Do you read the King James version of the Bible? Luther's translation? Which? They are all different, you know. In many of the early Greek translations they found that some Hebrew names for God were gender un-specific: neither male, female or it. It just was. The Greeks made a patriarchal choice. Ruled by men, they made God a man. So all your Him, He stuff for God... if you go back far enough, is incorrect. Just plain wrong translation. There's a whole bunch of that stuff.
Numbers 31:13-18 (King James Version)
And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Yeah boys, keep em for yourself. You know what to do with em.
C.
It feels... wrong typing this, but it's true.