*** Metadata petition! Please read!
I was surprised to find that no one here had mentioned John Siracusa's petition to Apple concerning metadata.
Here's the outline of his proposal:
<a href="http://homepage.mac.com/jcs/.Public/metadata.txt"; target="_blank">http://homepage.mac.com/jcs/.Public/metadata.txt</a>;
[quote]Many developers and users in the Mac community are concerned about the direction of file system metadata in Mac OS X. I wrote about the topic in the article, "Metadata, The Mac, and You"
<a href="http://arstechnica.com/reviews/01q3/metadata/metadata-1.html"; target="_blank">http://arstechnica.com/reviews/01q3/metadata/metadata-1.html</a>;
and revisited it in a section of my Mac OS X 10.1 review:
<a href="http://arstechnica.com/reviews/01q4/macosx-10.1/macosx-10.1-11.html"; target="_blank">http://arstechnica.com/reviews/01q4/macosx-10.1/macosx-10.1-11.html</a>;
The purpose of this bug report is to condense the philosophy and proposed changes found in those articles, augmented by the input of the larger community, and submit it formally to Apple as a bug report.<hr></blockquote>
You can sign here:
<a href="http://www.PetitionOnline.com/osxmd/petition.html"; target="_blank">http://www.PetitionOnline.com/osxmd/petition.html</a>;
Over 2300 signatures have been gathered so far. If you are at all concerned with the way file names, extensions, paths, and metadata are currently handled in Mac OS X, I strongly urge you to look over Siracusa's work and consider where Apple is heading now.
[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: starfleetX ]</p>
Here's the outline of his proposal:
<a href="http://homepage.mac.com/jcs/.Public/metadata.txt"; target="_blank">http://homepage.mac.com/jcs/.Public/metadata.txt</a>;
[quote]Many developers and users in the Mac community are concerned about the direction of file system metadata in Mac OS X. I wrote about the topic in the article, "Metadata, The Mac, and You"
<a href="http://arstechnica.com/reviews/01q3/metadata/metadata-1.html"; target="_blank">http://arstechnica.com/reviews/01q3/metadata/metadata-1.html</a>;
and revisited it in a section of my Mac OS X 10.1 review:
<a href="http://arstechnica.com/reviews/01q4/macosx-10.1/macosx-10.1-11.html"; target="_blank">http://arstechnica.com/reviews/01q4/macosx-10.1/macosx-10.1-11.html</a>;
The purpose of this bug report is to condense the philosophy and proposed changes found in those articles, augmented by the input of the larger community, and submit it formally to Apple as a bug report.<hr></blockquote>
You can sign here:
<a href="http://www.PetitionOnline.com/osxmd/petition.html"; target="_blank">http://www.PetitionOnline.com/osxmd/petition.html</a>;
Over 2300 signatures have been gathered so far. If you are at all concerned with the way file names, extensions, paths, and metadata are currently handled in Mac OS X, I strongly urge you to look over Siracusa's work and consider where Apple is heading now.
[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: starfleetX ]</p>
Comments
<strong>Apple should hire Siracusa!</strong><hr></blockquote>
He certainly would be a great guy to have working there... but we need sensible, articulate critics on the outside too!
He may be more valuable to the Mac platform working from outside of Apple.
<strong>Apple should hire Siracusa!</strong><hr></blockquote>
AND Tog.
C'mon guys, this is really important!!
Hot damn!! :eek: 6758 signatures so far!! :eek: I hope that's getting to be enough to make an impact on Apple!
At this point the only reason Siracusa idea is petitioning is BECAUSE he's of the minority in opinion.
Apple seems to have rewrote it because of the developer input.
While this may still be a good way, developers obviously have other ideas. And they should have more sway than Siracusa in this sense since they actually develop for it.
Having Siracusa aboard, maybe, maybe not. Outspoken and popular doesn't nessarity equal what's inside Apple.
This is a reason why petitions don't always work. They many times don't know all the facts.
Something so technical should be more logical then emotional. Something other than praises please.
~Kuku
<strong>What's with the praises?
At this point the only reason Siracusa idea is petitioning is BECAUSE he's of the minority in opinion.
Apple seems to have rewrote it because of the developer input.
While this may still be a good way, developers obviously have other ideas. And they should have more sway than Siracusa in this sense since they actually develop for it.
Having Siracusa aboard, maybe, maybe not. Outspoken and popular doesn't nessarity equal what's inside Apple.
This is a reason why petitions don't always work. They many times don't know all the facts.
Something so technical should be more logical then emotional. Something other than praises please.
~Kuku</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ummm... more logical than emotional? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
Have you read any of the articles this guy wrote? They are hardly illogical. They are quite articulate and point out some serious flaws in Apple's new design (that is, adopting Microsoft's 20-year old design
Why did Apple turn away from metadata and towards extensions? I call it a mistake. No one is perfect, even Apple. Still, it is a mistake that they need to acknowledge and take care of. Perhaps the NeXT developers that came over decided to change the way things work, but that does not make it any better.
Besides, Apple should cater to the developers and the end users. After all, I believe it is the end users who will have to put up with the trouble of handling these extensions rather than the developers. Why should Apple give up all old metadata conventions and change its ways now?
[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: starfleetX ]</p>
<strong>As far as being cross-platform and standard-compliant, I actually think apple should go with the file extensions. Mac metadata gets yanked out when moved to any platform other than Mac. It's a pain in the ass. Having .txt and .psd and .doc isn't that big of a deal.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just because it's the Windows way doesn't mean it's the better way. Although it would be nice to have the choice to use file extensions for cross-platform compatibility (as we have to some extent now), the operating system should be smart enough to not force us to rely on such primative methods. You may think having a txt or doc isn't bad, but what about all the problems related to extensions? What happens when a user renames a file and accidentally changes the extension? Or what if the user thinks that you can change the format of a file by changing the extension? There are many different possible situations that could arise (I think some are discussed in Siracusa's ArsTechnica article) that make having extensions a Bad Thing?.
In my experience with novice users on both Mac and Windows platforms, the world would be a whole lot better without file extensions. Provided, that won't happen any time soon, but at least Apple can continue to set a good example with its reliability and ease of use.
[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: starfleetX ]</p>
I don't see any support for that assertion. Have you been participating in the discussions on the various developer mailing lists on this topic?
[quote]Apple seems to have rewrote it because of the developer input.<hr></blockquote>
Were you at the last WWDC? "Despite" is a lot more accurate than "because of" in that sentence.
[quote]While this may still be a good way, developers obviously have other ideas.<hr></blockquote>
See above.
I was really skeptical about this until I actually read his proposal. It seemed to me that the direction Apple was taking was the right one because of the interpolarity with Windows and other OS' that it offers, but reading his proposal, he doesn't sacrifice that interpolarity, but rather expands it, ultimately making the Mac the ideal platform for file compatibility with *all* systems. Just read his <a href="http://siracusa.home.mindspring.com/john/articles/metadata.html"; target="_blank">proposal</a> and you'll see what I mean.
I don't see any support for that assertion. Have you been participating in the discussions on the various developer mailing lists on this topic?
quote:
Apple seems to have rewrote it because of the developer input.
Were you at the last WWDC? "Despite" is a lot more accurate than "because of" in that sentence.
<hr></blockquote>
From <a href="http://www.xlr8yourmac.com"; target="_blank">http://www.xlr8yourmac.com</a>; news page.
"Hi, you're maybe aware of the fact, that Apple proposed to replace the type/creator etc metadata completely by the usage of filename extensions in OSX. They did so in their Technical Note 2034 (which has been redrawn lately due to the overwhelming criticism they received from their developer community). Apple tells us, that they're going to adapt the TN based on our feedback in the developer mailing lists. "
I see Overwhelming as a majority.
~Kuku
[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: Kuku ]</p>
I just have to ask: have you completely read Siracusa's articles and proposal to Apple? If not, I really don't think you should be making comments about them.
I'd like to know your stance on this issue, not on whether on not Apple made this move because of "overwhelming criticism" of type/creator codes.
Do you think file extensions are really the best way to go now? Do you disagree with Siracusa's proposal? If you do disagree, why? Do you have a better solution?
[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: starfleetX ]</p>
Not saying there isn't room for improvement (there always is). But his proposals don't seem all that great. Who wants all those warnings popping up everytime they name, or don't name, something?
I can just see my mom calling and saying she's got a message on her screen that she has this on her screen:
Warning: "copying files with a particular metadata representation to a volume whose
metadata abilities are either unknown (or known to be limited), or when files are transferred via a protocol that does not support Mac OS X's native set of metadata".
To which I would reply:
"Files that arrive on the system via a web browser (or any other network service or disk) could (optionally, or by default) be brought up to "native" metadata standards by extrapolating and filling in any missing metadata according to the per-user mapping tables described above..."
No thanks. The thing is, I don't know anyone that has had any actual problems with the way things are. Philosophically, maybe. In practice, no. Not saying its currently impossible to run into a physical problem, I just haven't heard about it.
I don't know anyone who couldn't figure out what the .doc document was just because it had that suffix, nor has anyone been unable to open mail just because you can configure your Mac to see .app at the end (I don't see .app in my column view). And the average user shouldn't be messing with .plists either, should they?
To be honest, I just don't see what all the fuss is about. Is it mainly a philosophical complaint?
[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: seb ]</p>
Glad to have someone as respected as you here.
I thoroughly agree with your proposal... Apple needs more ideas like yours... too many heads up asses around there lately.
Again, welcome.
[quote]Originally posted by seb:
<strong>I don't know anyone who couldn't figure out what the .doc document was just because it had that suffix, nor has anyone been unable to open mail just because you can configure your Mac to see .app at the end (I don't see .app in my column view). And the average user shouldn't be messing with .plists either, should they?
To be honest, I just don't see what all the fuss is about. Is it mainly a philosophical complaint?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, you've just pointed out one of the problems in the current system: you CAN NOT make the .app extension visible. Period. This brings up the possibility of someone e-mailing out "sexypicture.jpg.app" which the user sees as "sexypicture.jpg".... could it be a virus or trojan of some sort? Who knows? Not your typical user.
Sound familiar? AnnaK.jpg.vbs? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
Even if Apple doesn't revise the system for use with metadata, I really hope they can make it consistant.
[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: starfleetX ]</p>
I was mistaken in thinking you guys didn't want to see the .app on the end. Are you saying the problem is that you don't, or that you can't? Or is that you can have more than one extension and that one is misleading and/or irrelevant. From what I can tell by reading the proposal the basic problem lies in only using file extensions as the only means of metadata. Is that right?
I'm not a developer, so perhaps I shouldn't even be throwing my .02¢ in. But, on the other hand, if you can convince me then it should be easy to convince those more "in the know".
And yes, I did read the proposals, but you see what I got out of it, or rather, what I didn't and even though I'm not a developer I'm not some ignorant dummy either. I guess I just don't quite grasp what the big deal is. Maybe I should just let you guys worry about it.
I just have to ask: have you completely read Siracusa's articles and proposal to Apple? If not, I really don't think you should be making comments about them.
I'd like to know your stance on this issue, not on whether on not Apple made this move because of "overwhelming criticism" of type/creator codes.
Do you think file extensions are really the best way to go now? Do you disagree with Siracusa's proposal? If you do disagree, why? Do you have a better solution?
<hr></blockquote>
I don't see anything wrong with saying, "well other's disagree with you."
It may not be my own opinion, but it is still hear say information that carries weight. That's like asking, why should I run if I only hear employees scream fire. Obviously, I won't go look for the fire to find out myself if I should run.
If you want my own opinion, you didn't have to ask so harshly, Starfleetx.
My opinion is to put it very bluntly,
"Let my betters in this area decide for me". Think for one's self, but don't think too hard applies.
To the petition itself though. I for one do not fully understand it myself(Know your betters). Simply because I don't assume to know the whole story here. And not going to go researching all over the net either. Things that come to mind is.
Compability- How will apps interact with this high level metadata? I assume it's a joint effort to get this to work. Developers not just apple will have a role in this in apps and files they produce and read. On a simple example, sit does compressed typle/creator while .zip doesn't. If all metadata is going to be stripped, even replacing it again and again doesn't always come out right. Unix and Linux files notoriously become recognized as text/ascii in our old classic metadata. BIG problem in the case of .img files.
Grey area- The petition only slightly mentions carbon,cocca and unix. How well will this incorporate, how hard will it be. How much over head? How long? How well made? How much bugs? How much, "We're sorry it will be fixed/implemented in the next release". An idea is only good if it's realistic.
To sum up this long winded, no one will read this far, post.
-In Practice- Does the end justify the means? Basically engineering is about trade-offs. I'm sure apple developers knew that, that was why they started rewriting stuff(Even now apple proposes some more weird stuff on this issue)
~Kuku
Not me. That's why many parts of the proposal are specifically designed to eliminate such warnings--warnings that exist in Mac OS X right now. Go on a renaming spree in the 10.1 Finder and see for yourself; there are some real winners in there. "This file may become a folder" anyone? :-)
Under the proposed system, an email attachment called "resume.doc" sent to a Mac OS X system from a PC user would be "promoted" to a proper set of Mac OS X metadata (whatever that may be at any given time) when it arrives on the system, subsequently enabling the Mac user to change the file name to whatever he wants without any fear of warnings. And if the "smart hiding" feature was enabled on that Mac OS X system (something allowed for by the proposal), it would be nearly impossible for your mom to accidentally remove that ".doc" extension.
[quote]I can just see my mom calling and saying she's got a message on her screen that she has this on her screen:
Warning: "copying files with a particular metadata representation to a volume whose metadata abilities are either unknown (or known to be limited), or when files are transferred via a protocol that does not support Mac OS X's native set of metadata".<hr></blockquote>
First, your mom would never see that warning if her Mac was configured according to the current 10.1.x defaults (which it should arguably be, out of the box).
Second, if she did ever try to FTP a file named "My Letter" somewhere, the Mac would not only warn her (but in much nicer non-technical language, of course), but offer to fix the situation for her by appending the appropriate extension based on the file type. All she would have to do is click a button.
[quote]To which I would reply:
"Files that arrive on the system via a web browser (or any other network service or disk) could (optionally, or by default) be brought up to "native" metadata standards by extrapolating and filling in any missing metadata according to the per-user mapping tables described above..."<hr></blockquote>
See above. You wouldn't have to reply anything because she'd never call you. She'd click "okay." And she'd only have to make that click if she'd changed her Mac OS X configuration from the default "mom mode." The parts of the proposals you're citing describe things OS could do for you, not things that the user would have to be aware of and do for him/herself.
[quote]he thing is, I don't know anyone that has had any actual problems with the way things are. Philosophically, maybe. In practice, no. Not saying its currently impossible to run into a physical problem, I just haven't heard about it.<hr></blockquote>
Maybe you should read some of the comments accompanying the 7,000+ petition signatures.