they already have to write code in universal binary to be used on intel and powerpc chips... are they going to now need to write code in universal tertiary?
I'm sure the changes will just be upgraded motherboards of some sort, but after juse getting intel processor on board in the last few years, it makes absolutely zero sense to abandon them this quickly for a new type processor.
^ You were skimming. If this is true - they're not abandoning Intel processors.
My predictions. Most components still Intel and etc. However... the PA Semi stuff that will blow away the competition is probably 3G in all the Mac laptops.
The Mac Touch/ smaller MacBook Air though... ah that is a tricky one because if it is not Intel... then what CPU? It has to have some level of Intel compatibility no?
Unless the Mac Touch/ smaller MacBook Air is no Intel at all, all PA Semi etc.
Ah I don't know my crystal ball is full of muck right now can't see sh*t...
3G would be cool. By the way I would note, if the above article is true - they're not abandoning the Intel CPU, just the chipset.
Thanks for clearing that up. While reading the posts above yours, I was dumbfounded by the consistent lack of knowledge by users commenting on a "computing" website forum. I'm not really speaking bad against these users since it's easy to get "chipset" and just "chip" (or processor) confused. I guess being a computing rumors site attracts all types of viewers with varying interests and technical knowledge (which is a good thing).
Regarding the article, I think this would be a great direction for Apple to go. It's not like their old proprietary days. All should work the same as it does now, but just better (faster and more power efficient). If Apple is successful, they should be able to differentiate themselves greatly from PC competitors... At least until the PC competitors do the same thing for a similar price. It sounds like Apple is going to make this very price competitive against existing Intel chipsets (which will be slower than what Apple appears to be concocting).
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme
I think people are confusing processors with chipsets.
The article doesn't suggest a move away from Intel PROCESSORS (though Apple might certainly add other compatible processor brands to the mix one day).
The article is about the chips that ACCOMPANY and support the main processor. That's what "chipset" refers to.
This is an I, too, had and would require a new chipset to best implement HW authentication. But with so many other Macs in use and supported for a solid 3 years I don't see Apple wanting this knowledge to be released to the public until they have an OS that will only install on this new, specific hardware.
Even so, won't the nuts over at osx86project come up with a workaround as they did with SSE3 on SSE2 processors? Or hell, running OS X on AMD for that matter.
SJ has publicly concurred with the idea that people who make their own software should make their own hardware. The move to Intel CPUs & chipsets, though highly marketable in the eyes of the hardware specification duped general public, has robbed Apple of unique hardware that, marketability aside, produced a better product. I can't help but feel the reliability gap between my 'solid' iMac G4 and my 'wobbly' iMac C2D isn't software alone - I almost empathise with Windows users - almost.
I highly doubt using Intel's chips had anything to do with the reliability problems you might have had. I've owned several very reliable Intel-based computers, the computers that I had that weren't reliable weren't using Intel chipsets.
I can't believe after the major FUBAR that was the MobileMe and iPhone 3G rollout, that people are actually asking Apple to rush something to market!
Not to pull this train off the tracks but my 3G iPhone has worked find since the day I got it. That includes conversion of my dot Mac account. The biggest problem with Mobile Me was the failure of a server installation that affected some users. Most of use have been enjoying our hardware since walking out of the store.
Now that doesn't mean iPhone is perfect as yes it was rushed to market. Take that collectively too, as both models have been rushed, but they are now miles ahead of the competition and hopefully will stay that way. Hopefully any new tech Apple offers up will take the same path. That is offer solid hardware and keep updating the software until it is perfected.
Even so, won't the nuts over at osx86project come up with a workaround as they did with SSE3 on SSE2 processors? Or hell, running OS X on AMD for that matter.
I thought that OS X uses SSE2 and SSE3 on CD/C2D/Xeon chips.
Apple talked about a "product transition" that would initially have higher component prices, with prices dropping over time.
For a major transition why not first look at the patents that Apple has been receiving? Lots of patents on Multi-Touch as Apple is advancing their work inn that area. I would put that at the head of the list in a transition.
Would love to see Apple being able to put some of the technology into new notebooks, allowing the AppStore to deliver apps that work with both the Mac & iPhone.
In reality Apple is projecting a drop of 4% in their gross margin. For a $1,200 MacBook we're talking a $48 increase in component basket costs. Go to a $2,000 Mac and the basket price goes up $80. Add it all up and this transition does have financial limits, even if reductions in the prices of other components are dropping.
I believe that it might be a bit early for PA Semi to have a major impact. There is integration time needed to get on the same page as Apple and I believe that PA Semi folks will also be working with Intel. There is no reason why we can't have Apple/PA/Intel working on some custom EXCLUSIVE TO APPLE designs and products. Intel enjoys working with Apple enough to live with the screams from Dell, HP, etc.
I have the following to offer up. But first people have to realize that the chipset and the Intel processor are not one in the same. It isunfortunate that htis needs tobe repeated so many times in this thread. More so Intel is moving to a new technology that is more like AMD's approach than traditional Intel North and South bridge combos.
This is very important to understand as it can imply a vastly different amount of required complexity.
In any event some possibilities:
1.
Apple implements a programmable gate array subsection in their support chipset. This would allow them to mainstream programmable hardware which means the speeding up of custom algorithms and programs. For example video decode, RF signal processing, image processing algorithms and science apps could all execute on optimized hardware. Some things can be extremely fast with this approach and even if not can significantly off load a main CPU cluster.
2.
Apple gets serious about FLASH as in solid state storage and implements optimized hardware to access Flash as a high speed disk. There is huge potential here as many SSD drives made these days are far from optimized. Apple can work to over come Flashes weakness by optimising Access in a RAID like manner. There is big potential here and frankly Apple has done a lot of recent research into Flash memory technology that is unusual for a company with Apple's size and focus. One should look up Apples patents related to Flash technology. Again one should not look at what is current available in Flash SSD drives for comparison.
3.
For portables I can see much more in the way of technology applied to things like WiFI and 3G. This might include adding more intelligents to the handling of RF communications. Of course lower power usage would be a big help.
4.
Related to the above if Apple was real smart they would offer up a iPhone port in most of their new computers. This way if you need three G access you simply plug in your iPhone. The point here is that many of us would like 3G access form a laptop but do not have the desire to pay for a laptop access line. Obviously this could be done via tethering which seems to be verboten right now. The point is though that a port for a iPhone right now would be used by me more than the cardbus port in my current MBP. One less cable to carry and solid integration - great for laptops.
5.
Apple implements a ray traced GPU. That is a GPU that renders everything via ray tracing algorithms. This would move us away from the traditional GPU to hardware that can do photo realistic ray tracing in hardware. At the college research level there has been some interesting work done here. I believe this will be the approach of the future. The trick is to implement powerful enough CPU's and the optimal algorithms in hardware. Besides whatever happen to "racer" or whatever that firm was that Apple purchased a few years ago.
Well that is it for now. What we need is for people here to offer up all the ideas they have. It would be great to see who gets close.
I believe that it might be a bit early for PA Semi to have a major impact. There is integration time needed to get on the same page as Apple and I believe that PA Semi folks will also be working with Intel. There is no reason why we can't have Apple/PA/Intel working on some custom EXCLUSIVE TO APPLE designs and products. Intel enjoys working with Apple enough to live with the screams from Dell, HP, etc.
Possible but I've heard a different story here. That is Apple bought out PA Semi because they basically ran out of money while working on a project for Apple. The purchase of PA was simply an effort to save the company while it finished off whatever it was they where working on.
The question is what where they working on? Allusion to chips for the iPod line ups have come from Apple but this could simply be a ruse. The reality is that PA has the back ground to make chips with highly integrated peripherals. Exactly the type of experience that could lead to an interesting and advanced support chip for one of Intel's new CPU's. In the market segment they serviced PA Semi's chips where well respected so this is a good sign that things could turn out well.
I have high hopes that the PA Semi hardware is indeed headed to Apples primary computing line up and not the iPod lines. Now what hurts here is that my MBP was purchased right after the last chip bump so I will likely have to suffer through all you guys gloating about the latest and greatest Apple hardware and the whiz bang new hardware features.
If that were true they wouldn't be spending ANY man-hours trying to shut down Psystar, much less the costly hourly rates of lawyers. This wasn't an issue when Apple was the only one not selling an x86 OS, but now they have only two viable choices as they move ahead: they can require an activation key like MS or they can use HW authentication. Neither is unbreakable, but one is known to be a far less reliable form of protection.
As if their close observation of anyone stepping upon their tenuous legal boundaries was a new, expensive undertaking. They do that shit all the time and stepped on Psystar for touching the code alteration button, something any software company has to be ready for. Their counsel does not cost them the same magnitude of millions of dollars in infrastructure alterations or risk them the future because of destructive collateral damage.
Their shares plummeted on the Intel announcement for fears that THIS was the mass commoditization of hardware capable of using OS X. Nothing like that happened, even with Intel's chipsets.
edit: They 'survived' the switch to x86 and only three years later, JUST as the first - and unbelievably weak - legal attack by a clone was extinguished, are moving on to (possibly) unequivocal logic boards.
Exactly. I'd love to see PA work in the area of h.264 encode/decode chipsets ala the old days of the Motorola 56k DSP that was designed to do a lot of tasks and free up the cores to do work and then allow this all to work together with GrandCentral and OpenCL.
GPU work in OpenCL/GrandCentral seems likely targeted for dedicated GPUs and not integrated chipsets that are running the current MacBooks or Mac-mini.
I just cannot see it's founder, Dan Dobberpuhl, the lead designer of the DECAlpha Processor and StrongARM just sitting around and not adding something to Macs, across-the-board, giving Apple an even more compelling reason for consumers to buy Apple products.
new macs need to decode H.264 HD and this is too much cpu consuming. this buzz likely has to deal with peripherals around the cpu.
Not to pull this train off the tracks but my 3G iPhone has worked find since the day I got it. That includes conversion of my dot Mac account. The biggest problem with Mobile Me was the failure of a server installation that affected some users. Most of use have been enjoying our hardware since walking out of the store.
Now that doesn't mean iPhone is perfect as yes it was rushed to market. Take that collectively too, as both models have been rushed, but they are now miles ahead of the competition and hopefully will stay that way. Hopefully any new tech Apple offers up will take the same path. That is offer solid hardware and keep updating the software until it is perfected.
Dave
I also find it odd that the server failure wasn't attributed to the right party--Akamai: the same company that hosts all of Apple's server solutions.
I am really interested in any comments regarding the second part of my earlier post. I agree with Wizard that this has got to be something major they are working on hardware-wise. Apple doesn't do anything that is going to impact profits and set them back a bit up front (such as pushing the release date forward 6-8 weeks).
Quote:
Originally Posted by G520incher
Also, I remember some patents that Apple filed a while back describing a portable device much like a notebook with a removable keyboard, that you could then plug other interfaces into for controlling specific tasks in different programs.....such as:
Let's say your editing video on your mac laptop....pull the keyboard off, and plug&play a video interface with full dedicated keys and "scrubbing" shuttle wheels.
Or, your running any number of audio applications, but let's say Logic, and you can plug & play a midi keyboard interface directly onto your laptop, or an equalizer, or a loop-based editor with touch capability.
Or, your running your fav graphics software and you can pull your keyboard and plug in a tablet interface directly on your laptop....
Really, the sky is the limit here and it would be untouchable by any other computer maker.
Wouldn't you need a new type of motherboard for such a system? How plausible would this be?
It seems like a sure way to keep clone makers out IMO. You wouldn't even need TPM any more as a custom chipset will be enough. Clone makers won't be able to get hold of them. Even if Apple don't make any significant changes, it will be enough to stop them and is one less thing for them to worry about.
I can still see it breaking virtualization software though but it should be possible to update it. They could even make the chipset with the ability to switch OSs without rebooting or allow virtualization software to use the GPU - Macs suddenly handle games without Bootcamp.
Apple could even make their own graphics chips. Intel's chips really suck so with them using the GPU more and more throughout their software, they could have a chip that makes Core effects seriously fast. They could do things like hardware accelerated raytracing - that could make the folks at Pixar happy. There are so many things Apple can do with custom chips and P.A.Semi.
I don't see AMD on the cards at all, they still aren't competing well enough with Intel and Apple have a good relationship with Intel. Their chips are cheaper so it could help reduce costs but I don't see it happening.
The only downside to all this is the new delays. Everyone else has Montevina right now but we all have to wait on Apple doing their own thing. It reminds me of the PPC days. Still, 6-8 weeks isn't too bad but I just hope we don't see longer delays in the future.
Comments
doesn't make sense.
they already have to write code in universal binary to be used on intel and powerpc chips... are they going to now need to write code in universal tertiary?
I'm sure the changes will just be upgraded motherboards of some sort, but after juse getting intel processor on board in the last few years, it makes absolutely zero sense to abandon them this quickly for a new type processor.
^ You were skimming. If this is true - they're not abandoning Intel processors.
My predictions. Most components still Intel and etc. However... the PA Semi stuff that will blow away the competition is probably 3G in all the Mac laptops.
The Mac Touch/ smaller MacBook Air though... ah that is a tricky one because if it is not Intel... then what CPU? It has to have some level of Intel compatibility no?
Unless the Mac Touch/ smaller MacBook Air is no Intel at all, all PA Semi etc.
Ah I don't know my crystal ball is full of muck right now can't see sh*t...
3G would be cool. By the way I would note, if the above article is true - they're not abandoning the Intel CPU, just the chipset.
A tea maker would be nice.
I want it to be able to do my taxes, without me present.
Regarding the article, I think this would be a great direction for Apple to go. It's not like their old proprietary days. All should work the same as it does now, but just better (faster and more power efficient). If Apple is successful, they should be able to differentiate themselves greatly from PC competitors... At least until the PC competitors do the same thing for a similar price. It sounds like Apple is going to make this very price competitive against existing Intel chipsets (which will be slower than what Apple appears to be concocting).
I think people are confusing processors with chipsets.
The article doesn't suggest a move away from Intel PROCESSORS (though Apple might certainly add other compatible processor brands to the mix one day).
The article is about the chips that ACCOMPANY and support the main processor. That's what "chipset" refers to.
This is an I, too, had and would require a new chipset to best implement HW authentication. But with so many other Macs in use and supported for a solid 3 years I don't see Apple wanting this knowledge to be released to the public until they have an OS that will only install on this new, specific hardware.
Even so, won't the nuts over at osx86project come up with a workaround as they did with SSE3 on SSE2 processors? Or hell, running OS X on AMD for that matter.
SJ has publicly concurred with the idea that people who make their own software should make their own hardware. The move to Intel CPUs & chipsets, though highly marketable in the eyes of the hardware specification duped general public, has robbed Apple of unique hardware that, marketability aside, produced a better product. I can't help but feel the reliability gap between my 'solid' iMac G4 and my 'wobbly' iMac C2D isn't software alone - I almost empathise with Windows users - almost.
I highly doubt using Intel's chips had anything to do with the reliability problems you might have had. I've owned several very reliable Intel-based computers, the computers that I had that weren't reliable weren't using Intel chipsets.
I can't believe after the major FUBAR that was the MobileMe and iPhone 3G rollout, that people are actually asking Apple to rush something to market!
Not to pull this train off the tracks but my 3G iPhone has worked find since the day I got it. That includes conversion of my dot Mac account. The biggest problem with Mobile Me was the failure of a server installation that affected some users. Most of use have been enjoying our hardware since walking out of the store.
Now that doesn't mean iPhone is perfect as yes it was rushed to market. Take that collectively too, as both models have been rushed, but they are now miles ahead of the competition and hopefully will stay that way. Hopefully any new tech Apple offers up will take the same path. That is offer solid hardware and keep updating the software until it is perfected.
Dave
Even so, won't the nuts over at osx86project come up with a workaround as they did with SSE3 on SSE2 processors? Or hell, running OS X on AMD for that matter.
I thought that OS X uses SSE2 and SSE3 on CD/C2D/Xeon chips.
For a major transition why not first look at the patents that Apple has been receiving? Lots of patents on Multi-Touch as Apple is advancing their work inn that area. I would put that at the head of the list in a transition.
Would love to see Apple being able to put some of the technology into new notebooks, allowing the AppStore to deliver apps that work with both the Mac & iPhone.
In reality Apple is projecting a drop of 4% in their gross margin. For a $1,200 MacBook we're talking a $48 increase in component basket costs. Go to a $2,000 Mac and the basket price goes up $80. Add it all up and this transition does have financial limits, even if reductions in the prices of other components are dropping.
I believe that it might be a bit early for PA Semi to have a major impact. There is integration time needed to get on the same page as Apple and I believe that PA Semi folks will also be working with Intel. There is no reason why we can't have Apple/PA/Intel working on some custom EXCLUSIVE TO APPLE designs and products. Intel enjoys working with Apple enough to live with the screams from Dell, HP, etc.
This is very important to understand as it can imply a vastly different amount of required complexity.
In any event some possibilities:
1.
Apple implements a programmable gate array subsection in their support chipset. This would allow them to mainstream programmable hardware which means the speeding up of custom algorithms and programs. For example video decode, RF signal processing, image processing algorithms and science apps could all execute on optimized hardware. Some things can be extremely fast with this approach and even if not can significantly off load a main CPU cluster.
2.
Apple gets serious about FLASH as in solid state storage and implements optimized hardware to access Flash as a high speed disk. There is huge potential here as many SSD drives made these days are far from optimized. Apple can work to over come Flashes weakness by optimising Access in a RAID like manner. There is big potential here and frankly Apple has done a lot of recent research into Flash memory technology that is unusual for a company with Apple's size and focus. One should look up Apples patents related to Flash technology. Again one should not look at what is current available in Flash SSD drives for comparison.
3.
For portables I can see much more in the way of technology applied to things like WiFI and 3G. This might include adding more intelligents to the handling of RF communications. Of course lower power usage would be a big help.
4.
Related to the above if Apple was real smart they would offer up a iPhone port in most of their new computers. This way if you need three G access you simply plug in your iPhone. The point here is that many of us would like 3G access form a laptop but do not have the desire to pay for a laptop access line. Obviously this could be done via tethering which seems to be verboten right now. The point is though that a port for a iPhone right now would be used by me more than the cardbus port in my current MBP. One less cable to carry and solid integration - great for laptops.
5.
Apple implements a ray traced GPU. That is a GPU that renders everything via ray tracing algorithms. This would move us away from the traditional GPU to hardware that can do photo realistic ray tracing in hardware. At the college research level there has been some interesting work done here. I believe this will be the approach of the future. The trick is to implement powerful enough CPU's and the optimal algorithms in hardware. Besides whatever happen to "racer" or whatever that firm was that Apple purchased a few years ago.
Well that is it for now. What we need is for people here to offer up all the ideas they have. It would be great to see who gets close.
Dave
I believe that it might be a bit early for PA Semi to have a major impact. There is integration time needed to get on the same page as Apple and I believe that PA Semi folks will also be working with Intel. There is no reason why we can't have Apple/PA/Intel working on some custom EXCLUSIVE TO APPLE designs and products. Intel enjoys working with Apple enough to live with the screams from Dell, HP, etc.
Possible but I've heard a different story here. That is Apple bought out PA Semi because they basically ran out of money while working on a project for Apple. The purchase of PA was simply an effort to save the company while it finished off whatever it was they where working on.
The question is what where they working on? Allusion to chips for the iPod line ups have come from Apple but this could simply be a ruse. The reality is that PA has the back ground to make chips with highly integrated peripherals. Exactly the type of experience that could lead to an interesting and advanced support chip for one of Intel's new CPU's. In the market segment they serviced PA Semi's chips where well respected so this is a good sign that things could turn out well.
I have high hopes that the PA Semi hardware is indeed headed to Apples primary computing line up and not the iPod lines. Now what hurts here is that my MBP was purchased right after the last chip bump so I will likely have to suffer through all you guys gloating about the latest and greatest Apple hardware and the whiz bang new hardware features.
Dave
If that were true they wouldn't be spending ANY man-hours trying to shut down Psystar, much less the costly hourly rates of lawyers. This wasn't an issue when Apple was the only one not selling an x86 OS, but now they have only two viable choices as they move ahead: they can require an activation key like MS or they can use HW authentication. Neither is unbreakable, but one is known to be a far less reliable form of protection.
As if their close observation of anyone stepping upon their tenuous legal boundaries was a new, expensive undertaking. They do that shit all the time and stepped on Psystar for touching the code alteration button, something any software company has to be ready for. Their counsel does not cost them the same magnitude of millions of dollars in infrastructure alterations or risk them the future because of destructive collateral damage.
Their shares plummeted on the Intel announcement for fears that THIS was the mass commoditization of hardware capable of using OS X. Nothing like that happened, even with Intel's chipsets.
edit: They 'survived' the switch to x86 and only three years later, JUST as the first - and unbelievably weak - legal attack by a clone was extinguished, are moving on to (possibly) unequivocal logic boards.
ASUS, EVGA, FOXCONN, and others.
It would be nice if Apple included this:
http://usa.asus.com/products.aspx?l1...55&modelmenu=1
on their Mac Desktop line-up and included on-board for their laptops.
Exactly. I'd love to see PA work in the area of h.264 encode/decode chipsets ala the old days of the Motorola 56k DSP that was designed to do a lot of tasks and free up the cores to do work and then allow this all to work together with GrandCentral and OpenCL.
GPU work in OpenCL/GrandCentral seems likely targeted for dedicated GPUs and not integrated chipsets that are running the current MacBooks or Mac-mini.
Now with regards to PA Semi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.A._Semi
I just cannot see it's founder, Dan Dobberpuhl, the lead designer of the DECAlpha Processor and StrongARM just sitting around and not adding something to Macs, across-the-board, giving Apple an even more compelling reason for consumers to buy Apple products.
new macs need to decode H.264 HD and this is too much cpu consuming. this buzz likely has to deal with peripherals around the cpu.
Not to pull this train off the tracks but my 3G iPhone has worked find since the day I got it. That includes conversion of my dot Mac account. The biggest problem with Mobile Me was the failure of a server installation that affected some users. Most of use have been enjoying our hardware since walking out of the store.
Now that doesn't mean iPhone is perfect as yes it was rushed to market. Take that collectively too, as both models have been rushed, but they are now miles ahead of the competition and hopefully will stay that way. Hopefully any new tech Apple offers up will take the same path. That is offer solid hardware and keep updating the software until it is perfected.
Dave
I also find it odd that the server failure wasn't attributed to the right party--Akamai: the same company that hosts all of Apple's server solutions.
new macs need to decode H.264 HD and this is too much cpu consuming. this buzz likely has to deal with peripherals around the cpu.
Correct and the reason I referenced it with third party ASICs co-developed by Apple and say with Texas Instruments who then fabs them?
Also, I remember some patents that Apple filed a while back describing a portable device much like a notebook with a removable keyboard, that you could then plug other interfaces into for controlling specific tasks in different programs.....such as:
Let's say your editing video on your mac laptop....pull the keyboard off, and plug&play a video interface with full dedicated keys and "scrubbing" shuttle wheels.
Or, your running any number of audio applications, but let's say Logic, and you can plug & play a midi keyboard interface directly onto your laptop, or an equalizer, or a loop-based editor with touch capability.
Or, your running your fav graphics software and you can pull your keyboard and plug in a tablet interface directly on your laptop....
Really, the sky is the limit here and it would be untouchable by any other computer maker.
Wouldn't you need a new type of motherboard for such a system? How plausible would this be?
Original article:
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...interface.html
I can still see it breaking virtualization software though but it should be possible to update it. They could even make the chipset with the ability to switch OSs without rebooting or allow virtualization software to use the GPU - Macs suddenly handle games without Bootcamp.
Apple could even make their own graphics chips. Intel's chips really suck so with them using the GPU more and more throughout their software, they could have a chip that makes Core effects seriously fast. They could do things like hardware accelerated raytracing - that could make the folks at Pixar happy. There are so many things Apple can do with custom chips and P.A.Semi.
I don't see AMD on the cards at all, they still aren't competing well enough with Intel and Apple have a good relationship with Intel. Their chips are cheaper so it could help reduce costs but I don't see it happening.
The only downside to all this is the new delays. Everyone else has Montevina right now but we all have to wait on Apple doing their own thing. It reminds me of the PPC days. Still, 6-8 weeks isn't too bad but I just hope we don't see longer delays in the future.
I mean apple has been doing alot of stuff with magnets recently