Well, different engineers do different things. I would hope and think that they kept some core teams on, say, the UI development and others on, say, networking at the same time. Out of 1000 programmers, I can't imagine that it would take all of them to get USB printer sharing up and running.
Actually, if anything, it seems like some of the teams, especially the Finder crew, have limited contact with the rest of the folks on OS X.
The window idea intrigues me. I think it could become quite fun. Windowshade wasn't my favorite implementation -- though the idea is ogical enough in terms of the metaphor. It's just that all my title bars would stack over one another at the top of the screen. What I liked about Windowshade is the "peeking" feature/consequence -- where you can quickly collapse and re-expand the window in place to see what's behind it, plus palettes were less intrusive this way without going away altogether (minimizing seems a bit drastic in this case). Of course, if Apple followed through on Aqua's vocabulary of using tranparency to indicate transience, then moving windows would make them semi-transparent, thus doing the same thing in effect. (I know, we don't want to slow down window dragging with tranparency effects -- if it would slow it.)
It would be nice to get the snapping thing going full-tilt, not just the throwing motion, like PS's palettes or the new tabs in Illustrator that can be placed on the screen edges like pop-up folders.
The whole idea of pulling apart the Dock (and perhaps menu-bar -- hello tear-off menus) to organize it could be nice as long as it doesn't get torn up too easily (like when rearranging app icons).
When I mentioned minimize in place, I was thinking of either a Finder Prefs checkbox or a Dock toggle. Seems simple enough. Again, as others have mentioned, I would still like a toolbar-like interface for customizing the Dock -sheets with drag-n-drop separators, spaces, etc. My personal opinion is that some people here over-organize and would have 5 or 6 Dock separators if they had their druthers. But while I think that's excessive, it could be implemented without making life more, uh, compartmentalized for others. So everyone would be happy (almost).
Xeo: Please post a link to whoever is hosting the movie when it turns up. Thanks.
I think it would make sense if you Command Double-click the title bar and it would minimize up under the cursor so you could easily pull it to a new location. On the same line, Command Click the yellow widget would do the same thing.
I'm curious, if you've selected Genie instead of Scale, do they Genie in-place? What might that look like (nudge, nudge)?</strong><hr></blockquote>So far, there is no way to minimize-in-place from large to small, only maximizing from it's "little window." No matter which is selected (genie or scale) it always scales from it. It only uses the genie when going to or from the Dock. This will most likely change by release time.
<strong>So far, there is no way to minimize-in-place from large to small, only maximizing from it's "little window." No matter which is selected (genie or scale) it always scales from it. It only uses the genie when going to or from the Dock. This will most likely change by release time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's odd, but kinda insanely great. I hope this stays in the final release.
To be useful I think it needs:
- minimize in place (with a command-key modifier, like Xeo suggested)
- a way to 'throw' a window immediately (say, in Dock or System Preferences)
That's about it. Then you could minimize all open windows in an App (w/ the option key) either to the Dock, to the side of the screen, or in place.
Xeo, do those windows currently float above all applications, like the Dock? Or do they act like an app's unminimized windows?
<strong>Xeo, do those windows currently float above all applications, like the Dock? Or do they act like an app's unminimized windows?</strong><hr></blockquote>Always on top.
The window idea intrigues me. I think it could become quite fun. Windowshade wasn't my favorite implementation -- though the idea is ogical enough in terms of the metaphor. It's just that all my title bars would stack over one another at the top of the screen. What I liked about Windowshade is the "peeking" feature/consequence -- where you can quickly collapse and re-expand the window in place to see what's behind it, plus palettes were less intrusive this way without going away altogether (minimizing seems a bit drastic in this case).
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, I agree completely. Windowshade is great for peeking, but a lousy window management model otherwise.
[quote]<strong>
Of course, if Apple followed through on Aqua's vocabulary of using tranparency to indicate transience, then moving windows would make them semi-transparent, thus doing the same thing in effect. (I know, we don't want to slow down window dragging with tranparency effects -- if it would slow it.)
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I?ve tried using Windowshade X just for making windows transparent for peeking, and it worked all right for this.
But it wasn?tcompletely satisftying, and I didn?t really need or want Windowshade X?s other features or use it for peeking enough to justify the cost or keep it around.
[quote]<strong>
It would be nice to get the snapping thing going full-tilt, not just the throwing motion, like PS's palettes or the new tabs in Illustrator that can be placed on the screen edges like pop-up folders.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah!
[quote]<strong>
The whole idea of pulling apart the Dock (and perhaps menu-bar -- hello tear-off menus) to organize it could be nice as long as it doesn't get torn up too easily (like when rearranging app icons).
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I suppose you could also pull off an non-running or running app from the Dock to create (respectively) a Launcher Dock or Process Dock. Or do so from a seperate menu or option. Hmmm.
I don?t know though. It would get kind of messy, wouldn?t it? I?m often puzzled why people dislike the idea of combining launching and process areas like the Dock currently does. I think it?s a pretty clever idea.
I use DragThing in 0S 9 with the two seperated, and personally find the Dock?s philosphy much cleaner.
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>
When I mentioned minimize in place, I was thinking of either a Finder Prefs checkbox or a Dock toggle. Seems simple enough. Again, as others have mentioned, I would still like a toolbar-like interface for customizing the Dock -sheets with drag-n-drop separators, spaces, etc. My personal opinion is that some people here over-organize and would have 5 or 6 Dock separators if they had their druthers. But while I think that's excessive, it could be implemented without making life more, uh, compartmentalized for others. So everyone would be happy (almost).
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Guilty as charged. It drives me crazy that I can?t organize the Dock more to my liking. Just the ability to add a couple of spaces to create some groups would be an enormous relief.
And can you drag them back into the Dock? Or do they just bounce off?
From the movie, it looked like OS X was trying to guide you toward the edges of the screen quite a bit. Is there sort of a gravity effect that pulls the mini-windows in toward the edges of the screen?
Thanks for the movie, Xeo. The "gravity" thing is interesting though I suppose our hopping alert icons already intorduced that behavior into the Dock. When you toss the windows on the side of the screen, it reminds me a LOT of NeXTstep.
...or the new tabs in Illustrator that can be placed on the screen edges like pop-up folders.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
i read this and got excited, quickly launching illustrator only to find out that to me, it behaves rather similarly to how it was in 9, that the pallette minimizes into its tab, but not really like a popup folder a la os9. is it kind of like the "well" in the new photoshop toolbar?...
And I stole Xeo's movie for the thread over there (don't worry, I gave you full credit)
One interesting point was made over at Ars and I'd like Xeo to confirm/deny it.
Do these undocked windows act like pop up folders? In other words, can you drop files and such in them? If they become the OSX version of popup folders, then I will be a very happy guy!
I think eventually this series of events would work?
Minimise to Dock
Drag dock Window up and snap to Screen edge.
Click on to Maximise
Click on Minimise back to screen edge,
And if this works with windows floating on top of whatever app open, just like it does with the current dock, it will be the perfect solution for me, kinda like Windowshade (sneek peeking!).
And if they enabled some type of 'drag & drop' or 'spring-loaded folders' and wrapped it up with this then even better!
And I stole Xeo's movie for the thread over there (don't worry, I gave you full credit)
One interesting point was made over at Ars and I'd like Xeo to confirm/deny it.
Do these undocked windows act like pop up folders? In other words, can you drop files and such in them? If they become the OSX version of popup folders, then I will be a very happy guy!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Apple didn't remove pop-up folders because they're 'stupid' or because they hate them or hate loyal Mac users, they 'removed' them because they were starting from scratch and trying to focus attention on the Dock.
Now they just have to make the Dock better.
The frustrating part is the waiting in-between. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
Anyway, this does look like one good way of doing it.
[quote]The function of pop-up folders is going come back to OS X in some way, either through the Dock (I think it's going be very close to Brian Ellis's example at <a href="http://www.wpi.edu/~phoenix/macosx/dock.html"; target="_blank">http://www.wpi.edu/~phoenix/macosx/dock.html</a>; , near the bottom) and perhaps this way too. <hr></blockquote>Please tell me that you have inside info about this!!!!! If not, please stop getting my hopes up.
And can you drag them back into the Dock? Or do they just bounce off?</strong><hr></blockquote>Yes, they go back in the dock.
[quote]<strong>From the movie, it looked like OS X was trying to guide you toward the edges of the screen quite a bit. Is there sort of a gravity effect that pulls the mini-windows in toward the edges of the screen?</strong><hr></blockquote>It doesn't move the cursor for you at all. It doesn't pull you over or anything. That was probably just me trying to fling them to the edge. It's hard when Snapz is running. The only time it moves and sticks is when you "throw" it.
[quote]Originally posted by kaboom:
<strong>One interesting point was made over at Ars and I'd like Xeo to confirm/deny it.
Do these undocked windows act like pop up folders? In other words, can you drop files and such in them?</strong><hr></blockquote>No, they act just like current minimized windows in the Dock. You can't drag things on them at this point.
One fun thing to do is to "throw" them at a moderate speed from one side to the other and try to catch it before it reaches the edge.
<strong>Please tell me that you have inside info about this!!!!! If not, please stop getting my hopes up. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry, kaboom, not a scrap of inside info -- wasn't my intention to make you think so.
It's just what makes sense to me -- as a designer -- and what makes sense if one tries, just for a moment, to enter the strange dimension where the Apple UI team's collective brain wavelength resides.
I can't think of any reason why Brian Ellis's pop-up Dock folders example, or something very close to it, shouldn't be implemented (unlike some of the other examples on his page, incidentally, which are pretty way out) -- other than Apple just hasn't had time to do it yet. And that it's always a good idea to start simple and add complexity later.
On the other hand, I can think of lots of reasons why windowshade wasn't (and isn't being) implemented.
Anyway, just my opinion & speculation. Though this secret UI document that I found on the web do seem to support my ideas...
Comments
Actually, if anything, it seems like some of the teams, especially the Finder crew, have limited contact with the rest of the folks on OS X.
The window idea intrigues me. I think it could become quite fun. Windowshade wasn't my favorite implementation -- though the idea is ogical enough in terms of the metaphor. It's just that all my title bars would stack over one another at the top of the screen. What I liked about Windowshade is the "peeking" feature/consequence -- where you can quickly collapse and re-expand the window in place to see what's behind it, plus palettes were less intrusive this way without going away altogether (minimizing seems a bit drastic in this case). Of course, if Apple followed through on Aqua's vocabulary of using tranparency to indicate transience, then moving windows would make them semi-transparent, thus doing the same thing in effect. (I know, we don't want to slow down window dragging with tranparency effects -- if it would slow it.)
It would be nice to get the snapping thing going full-tilt, not just the throwing motion, like PS's palettes or the new tabs in Illustrator that can be placed on the screen edges like pop-up folders.
The whole idea of pulling apart the Dock (and perhaps menu-bar -- hello tear-off menus) to organize it could be nice as long as it doesn't get torn up too easily (like when rearranging app icons).
When I mentioned minimize in place, I was thinking of either a Finder Prefs checkbox or a Dock toggle. Seems simple enough. Again, as others have mentioned, I would still like a toolbar-like interface for customizing the Dock -sheets with drag-n-drop separators, spaces, etc. My personal opinion is that some people here over-organize and would have 5 or 6 Dock separators if they had their druthers. But while I think that's excessive, it could be implemented without making life more, uh, compartmentalized for others. So everyone would be happy (almost).
Xeo: Please post a link to whoever is hosting the movie when it turns up. Thanks.
I'm curious, if you've selected Genie instead of Scale, do they Genie in-place? What might that look like (nudge, nudge)?
<strong>That is truly wacky.
I'm curious, if you've selected Genie instead of Scale, do they Genie in-place? What might that look like (nudge, nudge)?</strong><hr></blockquote>So far, there is no way to minimize-in-place from large to small, only maximizing from it's "little window." No matter which is selected (genie or scale) it always scales from it. It only uses the genie when going to or from the Dock. This will most likely change by release time.
<strong>So far, there is no way to minimize-in-place from large to small, only maximizing from it's "little window." No matter which is selected (genie or scale) it always scales from it. It only uses the genie when going to or from the Dock. This will most likely change by release time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's odd, but kinda insanely great. I hope this stays in the final release.
To be useful I think it needs:
- minimize in place (with a command-key modifier, like Xeo suggested)
- a way to 'throw' a window immediately (say, in Dock or System Preferences)
That's about it. Then you could minimize all open windows in an App (w/ the option key) either to the Dock, to the side of the screen, or in place.
Xeo, do those windows currently float above all applications, like the Dock? Or do they act like an app's unminimized windows?
<strong>Xeo, do those windows currently float above all applications, like the Dock? Or do they act like an app's unminimized windows?</strong><hr></blockquote>Always on top.
<strong>
The window idea intrigues me. I think it could become quite fun. Windowshade wasn't my favorite implementation -- though the idea is ogical enough in terms of the metaphor. It's just that all my title bars would stack over one another at the top of the screen. What I liked about Windowshade is the "peeking" feature/consequence -- where you can quickly collapse and re-expand the window in place to see what's behind it, plus palettes were less intrusive this way without going away altogether (minimizing seems a bit drastic in this case).
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, I agree completely. Windowshade is great for peeking, but a lousy window management model otherwise.
[quote]<strong>
Of course, if Apple followed through on Aqua's vocabulary of using tranparency to indicate transience, then moving windows would make them semi-transparent, thus doing the same thing in effect. (I know, we don't want to slow down window dragging with tranparency effects -- if it would slow it.)
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I?ve tried using Windowshade X just for making windows transparent for peeking, and it worked all right for this.
But it wasn?tcompletely satisftying, and I didn?t really need or want Windowshade X?s other features or use it for peeking enough to justify the cost or keep it around.
[quote]<strong>
It would be nice to get the snapping thing going full-tilt, not just the throwing motion, like PS's palettes or the new tabs in Illustrator that can be placed on the screen edges like pop-up folders.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah!
[quote]<strong>
The whole idea of pulling apart the Dock (and perhaps menu-bar -- hello tear-off menus) to organize it could be nice as long as it doesn't get torn up too easily (like when rearranging app icons).
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I suppose you could also pull off an non-running or running app from the Dock to create (respectively) a Launcher Dock or Process Dock. Or do so from a seperate menu or option. Hmmm.
I don?t know though. It would get kind of messy, wouldn?t it? I?m often puzzled why people dislike the idea of combining launching and process areas like the Dock currently does. I think it?s a pretty clever idea.
I use DragThing in 0S 9 with the two seperated, and personally find the Dock?s philosphy much cleaner.
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>
When I mentioned minimize in place, I was thinking of either a Finder Prefs checkbox or a Dock toggle. Seems simple enough. Again, as others have mentioned, I would still like a toolbar-like interface for customizing the Dock -sheets with drag-n-drop separators, spaces, etc. My personal opinion is that some people here over-organize and would have 5 or 6 Dock separators if they had their druthers. But while I think that's excessive, it could be implemented without making life more, uh, compartmentalized for others. So everyone would be happy (almost).
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Guilty as charged.
{edit: formatting}
[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: Hobbes ]</p>
<strong>Always on top.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And can you drag them back into the Dock? Or do they just bounce off?
From the movie, it looked like OS X was trying to guide you toward the edges of the screen quite a bit. Is there sort of a gravity effect that pulls the mini-windows in toward the edges of the screen?
PS: The "Close" pop-up is nice to see too.
<strong>
...or the new tabs in Illustrator that can be placed on the screen edges like pop-up folders.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
i read this and got excited, quickly launching illustrator only to find out that to me, it behaves rather similarly to how it was in 9, that the pallette minimizes into its tab, but not really like a popup folder a la os9. is it kind of like the "well" in the new photoshop toolbar?...
First time postin here. If the link doesn't work go to the forum and look for a thread titled "Holy crap! Apple just keeps getting stupider"
. Not my title. Interesting little movie.
And I stole Xeo's movie for the thread over there (don't worry, I gave you full credit)
One interesting point was made over at Ars and I'd like Xeo to confirm/deny it.
Do these undocked windows act like pop up folders? In other words, can you drop files and such in them? If they become the OSX version of popup folders, then I will be a very happy guy!
<strong>PS: The "Close" pop-up is nice to see too.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes! Not only does apple listen to feedback, they read my thoughts for feedback too!
Minimise to Dock
Drag dock Window up and snap to Screen edge.
Click on to Maximise
Click on Minimise back to screen edge,
And if this works with windows floating on top of whatever app open, just like it does with the current dock, it will be the perfect solution for me, kinda like Windowshade (sneek peeking!).
And if they enabled some type of 'drag & drop' or 'spring-loaded folders' and wrapped it up with this then even better!
[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: naderby ]</p>
<strong>That's my title
And I stole Xeo's movie for the thread over there (don't worry, I gave you full credit)
One interesting point was made over at Ars and I'd like Xeo to confirm/deny it.
Do these undocked windows act like pop up folders? In other words, can you drop files and such in them? If they become the OSX version of popup folders, then I will be a very happy guy!</strong><hr></blockquote>
The function of pop-up folders is going come back to OS X in some way, either through the Dock (I think it's going be very close to Brian Ellis's example at <a href="http://www.wpi.edu/~phoenix/macosx/dock.html"; target="_blank">http://www.wpi.edu/~phoenix/macosx/dock.html</a>; , near the bottom) and perhaps this way too.
Apple didn't remove pop-up folders because they're 'stupid' or because they hate them or hate loyal Mac users, they 'removed' them because they were starting from scratch and trying to focus attention on the Dock.
Now they just have to make the Dock better.
The frustrating part is the waiting in-between. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
Anyway, this does look like one good way of doing it.
<strong>
And can you drag them back into the Dock? Or do they just bounce off?</strong><hr></blockquote>Yes, they go back in the dock.
[quote]<strong>From the movie, it looked like OS X was trying to guide you toward the edges of the screen quite a bit. Is there sort of a gravity effect that pulls the mini-windows in toward the edges of the screen?</strong><hr></blockquote>It doesn't move the cursor for you at all. It doesn't pull you over or anything. That was probably just me trying to fling them to the edge. It's hard when Snapz is running. The only time it moves and sticks is when you "throw" it.
[quote]Originally posted by kaboom:
<strong>One interesting point was made over at Ars and I'd like Xeo to confirm/deny it.
Do these undocked windows act like pop up folders? In other words, can you drop files and such in them?</strong><hr></blockquote>No, they act just like current minimized windows in the Dock. You can't drag things on them at this point.
One fun thing to do is to "throw" them at a moderate speed from one side to the other and try to catch it before it reaches the edge.
<strong>Please tell me that you have inside info about this!!!!! If not, please stop getting my hopes up.
Sorry, kaboom, not a scrap of inside info -- wasn't my intention to make you think so.
It's just what makes sense to me -- as a designer -- and what makes sense if one tries, just for a moment, to enter the strange dimension where the Apple UI team's collective brain wavelength resides.
I can't think of any reason why Brian Ellis's pop-up Dock folders example, or something very close to it, shouldn't be implemented (unlike some of the other examples on his page, incidentally, which are pretty way out) -- other than Apple just hasn't had time to do it yet. And that it's always a good idea to start simple and add complexity later.
On the other hand, I can think of lots of reasons why windowshade wasn't (and isn't being) implemented.
Anyway, just my opinion & speculation. Though this secret UI document that I found on the web do seem to support my ideas...