iPhone 3G sales hampered by Windows Mobile

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  • Reply 61 of 74
    wobegonwobegon Posts: 764member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    1) If they did, they would use the iPod Touch as there is no need for a cellphone on a PoS system.



    2) There is no PoS software for the mobile OS X right now. Apple could have thrown something together by now, but #3 would still be an issue.



    3) There is no magnetic strip reader for the iPod right now. There are USB CC readers out there but a 3rd-party would need to adopt one to fit the Touch's design. I think Apple will adopt something eventually, but they will want to by someone's iPod Touch CC reader for the job.



    While I agree with most of what you said, you're leaving out part of the PoS equation: barcode scanner. The iPhone has has one: a 2.0MP camera. At the same time, while iPhones are sold for $200 to $300, we both know that's due to cellular contract subsidizing.



    So Apple has a few options. They could 1) use the iPhone 3G (at a high cost) and develop or use a third party USB-to-dock-connector credit card reader, 2) use the more affordable iPod touch while developing or using a third party credit card reader and barcode scanner, or 3) put the same 2.0MP camera used by the iPhone into the next iPod touch (as part of the September iPod refresh) and then simply develop or use a third party credit card reader.



    I'm thinking (and hoping) that Apple will go with option #3. I mean, why not throw in a camera? It won't be better than the iPhone's because at the end of the day, Apple wants to sell more iPhones than anything else, but the 2.0MP camera is no doubt cheap and useable. It'd also set the touch even further apart from touch screen competitors in the portable media player market while at the same time giving Apple a near feature-complete, cost effective, and far more useable PoS device.



    They'd just need to port their existing custom desktop software using the iPhone/iPod touch SDK and connect a CC reader via a wire or maybe one that clips right onto the bottom of the iPod touch.



    Ha, thinking over it again, Apple could develop their own CC reader, and while it would still be attachable and detachable from the standard iPod touch, they could sell the two together as a package to other retail stores, jumping into yet another enterprise with a good likelihood of high demand.
  • Reply 62 of 74
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wobegon View Post


    While I agree with most of what you said, you're leaving out part of the PoS equation: barcode scanner.



    Thanks. I had meant to comment on that. At the very least, if a magnetic strip reader was made for the Touch there is no reason why a barcode reader couldn't be part of that design.



    Quote:

    3) put the same 2.0MP camera used by the iPhone into the next iPod touch (as part of the September iPod refresh) and then simply develop or use a third party credit card reader.



    I'm thinking (and hoping) that Apple will go with option #3. I mean, why not throw in a camera? It won't be better than the iPhone's because at the end of the day, Apple wants to sell more iPhones than anything else, but the 2.0MP camera is no doubt cheap and useable. It'd also set the touch even further apart from touch screen competitors in the portable media player market while at the same time giving Apple a near feature-complete, cost effective, and far more useable PoS device.



    A camera does make sense on some levels. Like you say, it is cheap and Apple no longer has the profit sharing model going which eliminates some desire for pushing people towards the iPhone. But I don't think it will and have doubts that it could happen. The iPhone is 12.3mm while the iPod Touch is only 8mm. I don't think most people would mind a decent camera extending out from the case, like on several Nokia phones, but I think Apple would have a problem with it.



    Quote:

    Ha, thinking over it again, Apple could develop their own CC reader, while it would still be attachable and detachable from the standard iPod touch, they could sell the two together to other retail stores, jumping into yet another enterprise.



    I hope they don't go this route. I want them to concentrate on what they have got going on. Apple is exceptional at focusing on specific items—even Bates admitted this much in an email—but they have recently shown that they are not so good at having too many things going at once or perhaps they are just spreading themselves too thin. Either way, I want them to get their consumer products up to par before considering this route.



    However, there are more benefits than a handheld PoS device. A barcode scanner for the Touch would also be instrumental with inventory needs. There might even be some way of taking a barcode scan (or picture) of an item in a large lot and have a GPS unit grab the location. Is Apple holding back on allowing for 3rd-party hardware for the iPhone and Touch? I ask because I'm surprised by how few accessories there are when the HW power and App Store allow for so much potential.



    edit: I forgot something else: The virtual keyboard is also be a hindrance for many non-consumer applications. While it's great for its versatility, if you need a PoS or inventory handheld appliance that requires you to do extension typing then a virtual keyboard may be more of a hassle than using Symbol's devices. Since any HW accessory would also be plugged into the 30-pin connector at the bottom edge of the unit, I see no reason why a hinged physical keyboard could not be used. They could even get creative and have the underside of the keyboard be useful when its flipped out like a Star Trek communicator (I can't believe I just made a Star Trek reference); like a pad for some sort of simple drawing application or more buttons for specific functions.
  • Reply 63 of 74
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,015member
    Well I finally got my iPhone today. It's funny...the guy doing the sale complained about the PocketPC system he was running. And truly...it was pretty bad. He needed to re-enter several things a few times, and the system was about as clunky as could be. Overall, the experience was pretty quick though.
  • Reply 64 of 74
    olternautolternaut Posts: 1,376member
    For da luv of gawd already! Come out with your uber tablet device would yas Apple!! Your retail problems will be solved then!
  • Reply 65 of 74
    wobegonwobegon Posts: 764member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    A camera does make sense on some levels. Like you say, it is cheap and Apple no longer has the profit sharing model going which eliminates some desire for pushing people towards the iPhone. But I don't think it will and have doubts that it could happen. The iPhone is 12.3mm while the iPod Touch is only 8mm. I don't think most people would mind a decent camera extending out from the case, like on several Nokia phones, but I think Apple would have a problem with it.



    Ok, I agree, with the iPod touch in its current state, if the camera could fit, but would protrude, Apple certainly wouldn't go through with that.



    That's assuming the touch will remain physically the same in the upcoming refresh. I question that. As we've seen in the last few product revisions and new product introductions, Jonathan Ive has discovered a design trick: tapered edges. I know, sounds simple. The aluminum iMac last year did away with the rounded square back in favor of a more curved back. The MacBook Air debuted in January with tapered edges, unlike the rounded rectangle MacBook and MacBook Pro (the latter of which has been pictured in spy shots that show a similar tapered redesign). The new iPhone went from rounded rectangle to tapered edges and rounded, making it feel better in the and and feel thinner than the original. I see the same thing happening to the iPhone's cousin, the iPod touch. Tapered edges with a more rounded back (still metal of course). That could open up some space for a camera.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    I hope they don't go this route. I want them to concentrate on what they have got going on. Apple is exceptional at focusing on specific items—even Bates admitted this much in an email—but they have recently shown that they are not so good at having too many things going at once or perhaps they are just spreading themselves too thin. Either way, I want them to get their consumer products up to par before considering this route.



    I wasn't trying to suggest Apple design and manufacture a credit card reader and then sell it bundled with a camera-sporting iPod touch in the midst of polishing up MobileMe, coding a crucial iPhone 2.1 update, and launching the iPhone 3G in over 70 countries by the end of this year, possibly including Russia. That would be crazy.



    But when they have the time, I don't doubt they'll come up with a PoS that leverages what they already have in the iPod touch and what they can easily slap together: a simple card reader that clips onto the bottom of the iPod touch, interfacing with the dock connector, and a mobile version of their custom desktop checkout software. For a time, it would be an Apple Store exclusive device, of course, but once it's proven its worth, why not offer it to other retail stores dealing with the less than ideal WinMobile/Symbol PoS handhelds? It would help Apple in another enterprise, increase sales, put mobile OS X's interface in front of hundreds of retail employees and customers might even notice the  symbol on the back and the fact that Apple's iPod touches are being used in a serious business setting. Retail would be just the beginning. Restaurants could use them as well.



    Didn't you read THIS recent article on how Apple is already doing well in the hotel and cruise ship enterprise? Presenting the iPod touch as a WiFi-enabled PoS to the business sector, with its easy to use and program applications that can be distributed using the iPhone Enterprise Developer Program and easily controlled and updated through iTunes would be in keeping with these kind of expansions into new markets.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    However, there are more benefits than a handheld PoS device. A barcode scanner for the Touch would also be instrumental with inventory needs. There might even be some way of taking a barcode scan (or picture) of an item in a large lot and have a GPS unit grab the location. Is Apple holding back on allowing for 3rd-party hardware for the iPhone and Touch? I ask because I'm surprised by how few accessories there are when the HW power and App Store allow for so much potential.



    edit: I forgot something else: The virtual keyboard is also be a hindrance for many non-consumer applications. While it's great for its versatility, if you need a PoS or inventory handheld appliance that requires you to do extension typing then a virtual keyboard may be more of a hassle than using Symbol's devices. Since any HW accessory would also be plugged into the 30-pin connector at the bottom edge of the unit, I see no reason why a hinged physical keyboard could not be used. They could even get creative and have the underside of the keyboard be useful when its flipped out like a Star Trek communicator (I can't believe I just made a Star Trek reference); like a pad for some sort of simple drawing application or more buttons for specific functions.



    Ha, interesting thoughts, but do Symbol's PoS handhelds even offer tethering to a standard keyboard? From the pictures, they only appear to have a small number pad, which could be duplicated on a virtual keyboard, so that's not an issue. If keyboard tethering is a big necessary feature, Apple could pretty easily offer their own keyboards with a dock connector at the end instead of USB, or perhaps a USB-to-dock adapter so any keyboard could be used. If Apple put Bluetooth into the iPod touch too, they could use that for wireless keyboard pairing, both for business and consumers who have something lengthy to type.
  • Reply 66 of 74
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    However, there are more benefits than a handheld PoS device. A barcode scanner for the Touch would also be instrumental with inventory needs. There might even be some way of taking a barcode scan (or picture) of an item in a large lot and have a GPS unit grab the location. Is Apple holding back on allowing for 3rd-party hardware for the iPhone and Touch? I ask because I'm surprised by how few accessories there are when the HW power and App Store allow for so much potential.



    Symbol hold a lot of the patents for barcode reading, so to develop a dedicated barcode reader can be very expensive



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    edit: I forgot something else: The virtual keyboard is also be a hindrance for many non-consumer applications. While it's great for its versatility, if you need a PoS or inventory handheld appliance that requires you to do extension typing then a virtual keyboard may be more of a hassle than using Symbol's devices.



    Yes (and I don't like saying this) I agree, you either have to reduce the amount of typing performed, or introduce a physical keyboard. I have used POS systems in the past on Symbols with only a virtual keypad and you lose too much of the screen real estate
  • Reply 67 of 74
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wobegon View Post


    Ha, interesting thoughts, but do Symbol's PoS handhelds even offer tethering to a standard keyboard? From the pictures, they only appear to have a small number pad, which could be duplicated on a virtual keyboard, so that's not an issue. If keyboard tethering is a big necessary feature, Apple could pretty easily offer their own keyboards with a dock connector at the end instead of USB, or perhaps a USB-to-dock adapter so any keyboard could be used. If Apple put Bluetooth into the iPod touch too, they could use that for wireless keyboard pairing, both for business and consumers who have something lengthy to type.



    Yes they do, the models that have BT support can connect to a BT keyboard.



    If you are performing a lot of data entry on these things, a physical keyboard is a very handy thing to have (even numeric)
  • Reply 68 of 74
    It is truly embarrassing to walk into an Apple Store and see them using these Windows Mobile handhelds.
  • Reply 69 of 74
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by scotty321 View Post


    It is truly embarrassing to walk into an Apple Store and see them using these Windows Mobile handhelds.



    Embarrassing to whom? I don't go to Apple shops to look at their POS systems. I go to purchase things that I want or require. I couldn't care what system they use as long as I get what I want. What I find embarrassing is that a MS POS can evoke so much emotion over something that really does not matter.



    P.S. Who cares?
  • Reply 70 of 74
    nvidia2008nvidia2008 Posts: 9,262member
    Oops wrong thread...
  • Reply 71 of 74
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jfanning View Post


    Symbol hold a lot of the patents for barcode reading, so to develop a dedicated barcode reader can be very expensive







    Yes (and I don't like saying this) I agree, you either have to reduce the amount of typing performed, or introduce a physical keyboard. I have used POS systems in the past on Symbols with only a virtual keypad and you lose too much of the screen real estate



    Thought I would add a few notes having had experience of Retail POS in the UK, a lot of systems still run Win95, later ones NT4, still later Win2k. The applications are developed by specialist POS developers. POS systems ARE EXPENSIVE to buy at around $15-20000 each.

    Apple's retail POS is based on old technology and Apple ARE doing something about it, but its a non trivial exercise.



    I agree that it would be totally cool to have an app on an iPod touch with USB reader, just because its a proprietary connector (doing lots of different things) doesn't mean that you cannot plug a USB device into it.
  • Reply 72 of 74
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cubefan View Post


    Thought I would add a few notes having had experience of Retail POS in the UK, a lot of systems still run Win95, later ones NT4, still later Win2k. The applications are developed by specialist POS developers. POS systems ARE EXPENSIVE to buy at around $15-20000 each.

    Apple's retail POS is based on old technology and Apple ARE doing something about it, but its a non trivial exercise.



    I agree that it would be totally cool to have an app on an iPod touch with USB reader, just because its a proprietary connector (doing lots of different things) doesn't mean that you cannot plug a USB device into it.



    I thought we were talking about the portable devices the sales people are using, not the fixed units at the counters? The portable ones (while they are expensive) are no where near $15k
  • Reply 73 of 74
    While the technology discussed is interesting and I'm sure does have an effect on how fast Apple can process sales, there's another element that Apple seems to "not get".



    Last month I was on vacation at the New Jersey shore. I had put off getting an iPhone until the apps came out. It was time to upgrade from my Treo. Checking availability of stores in the shore area that night I saw that the Atlantic City store was due to have a stock of iPhones the next morning.



    The stars were aligned as the next morning it was raining at the shore so I suggested we take a ride up to the mall on the boardwalk in Atlantic City. Wife and 17 year old daughter were good with that.



    We drive up, park, wait for the mall to open, stand in line at the Apple store. Stand in line at the Apple store for 2 hours. When I'm the next one scheduled to go into the store and be "annointed" an Apple employee starts working her way down the line.



    She was making sure everyone was set with what they needed before they got into the store. Are you over 18 ? check, have a valid credit card ? check, have an existing A T & T account ? check, is this a personal or business plan ? a business plan I reply. Oh I'm sorry we can't help you. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.



    Can I talk to the manager? Sure -- 15 minutes later I end up talking with her. Sure enough they are right, I am wrong. Later I saw that indeed Apple stores only do personal cell phone plans. Not that got back the half day lost on my vacation.



    I then gave the Apple store manager this suggestion:



    "Why don't you have someone sit down at one of the 30 or so Macs and type up the questions that you asked us all after we stood in line for 2 hours? Then have the newest person come out and pass them out to the people in line. I would have read that 2 hours ago, maybe have had a question but I'd be back at our rental house an hour and a half ago and wouldn't have wasted my whole morning."



    BTW am I the only one that has noticed the following:



    Most Apple store employees look like they're from a Gap commercial.

    Most managers are women at Apple stores.



    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for advancing women that are qualified and younger college kids I realize do have a better grasp of technology as well as being willing to work for the wages that Apple pays.



    I still wonder why; of all the Apple stores I've visited from New York to California I've seen absolutely no one that looks like me with my experience; an early 50's business person that cut their eye teeth in 1984 on Macs.



    Why is that?



    I think if Apple would staff their stores with some people with real business experience using Mac's with some basic common sense they would be able to avoid some of the problems they have.
  • Reply 74 of 74
    IWhen the heck is Apple ever going to acknowledge and devote some engineering time to retail sales. They don't even have a home brewed solution at their own stores.



    Right now were going through an accounting conversion to a Windows based system - and I'm the one that pushed for it. (And I'm a devout Apple user since 1984). This is an accounting program that is sold exclusively to music stores. Many of the stores sell Mac based music software and prefer Macs. The consultant that is helping us get up and running commented that many of the stores he works with have serious Mac users.



    So why aren't they using a Mac solution? Because like the Apple stores using the Windows Mobile based hand helds there ain't one.



    I should preface that by saying that there are some. They lack the depth of features of what music stores need - such as; serial number tracking, trade ins, rentals, depreciating rental units, etc.



    We've had the MYOB rep. out to our MUG meetings several times. I even called him before we pulled the switch on the Windows based accounting program. As good as MYOB is he admitted that for industries like ours we have two choices; live with the limitations of a generic accounting program or use a Windows based vertical market accounting program.



    We went with the latter unfortunately - but we have a business to run.



    It pains me in that I know Apple could own the small retail market if they wanted to just devote a little bit of effort in engineering, understanding the market and encouraging developers to offer a Mac solution for retail much the way they have for developers for the iPhone apps.



    Come on Apple, spend some time, money and a bit of marketing with the smaller nich accounting companies to come up with some solutions. You would own the market.
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