You're missing the part where he is comparing a Mac that came out in February to a Sony that is only available for pre-order. Or that the entry level price is to get you in the door and then up sell you on HW that costs the same but they charge more for because it looks like a better deal. It's all explained, right down to those Sony's using the old hat 65nm Merom processors. Since Apple's prices are consistent with their entire line since they don't do the bait and upsell or deal with older or inferior chipsets that appear to the layman as being "as good" you have to compare similar machines. If you aren't doing that then you are just fooling yourself. That is to say, if you did buy that Sony and didn't change anything on the build you would be getting a machine that is a better value than what Apple offers on a piece-by-piece comparison, but only on that single entry level configuration.
Yeah I know.
I would suppose most of the misconception that macs are overpriced are based on this faulty comparison of laptops that just came out vs. 6 month old macs.
I would suppose most of the misconception that macs are overpriced are based on this faulty comparison of laptops that just came out vs. 6 month old macs.
That is an issue with Macs, The OEMs will do those incremental updates and Apple sticks to it's 6 to 8 month update cycle that follows Intel's releases. The MBA was unusual for Apple as it actually lowered the price of the SSD after other vendors started offering them at a lower price a couple months down the road.
PS: I think we may be seeing a wider range of MacBook CPU configurations from Apple this time around. My reasoning is that Apple has been using only a handful of Intel chips for its entire Mac line. The MB currently only uses 2 different chips and the MBP 3 different chips, and the same 2.4GHz chip is used in both the high-end MB and low-end MBP.
This limited build option may be simple but it could be causing some production delays and pushing back releases of new Macs as their sales keep exploding. Other vendors do the bulk of their sales on the lower end so they don't need as many of the new Intel chips as Apple does out of the gate. When Apple starts selling Montevina/Penryn you can bet their stores will be stocked with display models for testing and machines you can take home that day, not a BTO option where you wait 10 days for it to be shipped from the factory in Hanoi.
With all this growth either Apple has to use more chips to keep Intel's production from being constrained too much, Apple has to just wait a little longer than other OEMs before converting their line, or Intel has to make special accommodations for Apple.
You're missing the part where he is comparing a Mac that came out in February to a Sony that is only available for pre-order. Or that the entry level price is to get you in the door and then up sell you on HW that costs the same but they charge more for because it looks like a better deal. It's all explained, right down to those Sony's using the old hat 65nm Merom processors.
I'm still waiting for clarification from you on that point. And as I said above, I realize I'm comparing an end-of-life Mac to a brand new Sony, but the point is to show where Apple is now with price/performance, and where they need to go with their next model.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
Since Apple's prices are consistent with their entire line since they don't do the bait and upsell or deal with older or inferior chipsets that appear to the layman as being "as good" you have to compare similar machines.
Isn't that what the Mac Mini is? Don't you have to spend no less than $2300 just to get a desktop with expansion slots? And $2800 just to get a 17" screen on a notebook?
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
If you aren't doing that then you are just fooling yourself. That is to say, if you did buy that Sony and didn't change anything on the build you would be getting a machine that is a better value than what Apple offers on a piece-by-piece comparison, but only on that single entry level configuration.
Oh I don't know about that. The next model up in the Sony line, with Blu-Ray playback and 4GB of RAM for $999, doesn't look too shabby either.
I went to a lot of trouble breaking down the different processors in regards to the technology and how older PCU is being pared with a new package. I can't be anymore through. If it's an explanation of what the different terms means and how they affect performance I don't have the time or patience to go into that.
Quote:
Isn't that what the Mac Mini is?
The Mac Mini is a desktop machine built with notebook-grade components. It's small size means it costs more. You can build your own PC version and it will cost the same or a little more than the Mini, depending on the OS used. It is, however, dreadfully outdated. It hasn't been refreshed ina about a year. I figure Apple may replace it with something else next month as it's not a bad move to draw out an item that you are about to retire. You get a few more sales before your product is ready and it makes the new one look that much better in comparison.
Quote:
I don't know about that. The next model up in the Sony line, with Blu-Ray playback and 4GB of RAM for $999, doesn't look too shabby either.
Then go for it. You still aren't looking at equivalent HW. Since Apple is limited in their options why not take a Mac and then match it to another vendor with equivalent HW, not cheapest from a vendor to cheapest from Apple.
You still aren't looking at equivalent HW. Since Apple is limited in their options why not take a Mac and then match it to another vendor with equivalent HW, not cheapest from a vendor to cheapest from Apple.
Sony has often been considered one of the more expensive vendors, but ok then:
I'm still waiting for clarification from you on that point. And as I said above, I realize I'm comparing an end-of-life Mac to a brand new Sony, but the point is to show where Apple is now with price/performance, and where they need to go with their next model.
When you compare next, the odds are that you will find that the MB is very price competitive with the Sony. Which part of that is hard to understand? It's a bad time to buy a MB today. When it refreshes it's a good time.
Quote:
Oh I don't know about that. The next model up in the Sony line, with Blu-Ray playback and 4GB of RAM for $999, doesn't look too shabby either.
Except that the MB will likely be a 2.26Ghz machine. Until Sony releases with real pricing it still can be changed.
The Sony VAIO NR with those specs is $849.99 on SonyStyle. No webcam, no BT, no FW400 but does come with an expresscard slot which is nice.
The Sony VAIO SR is more expensive than the MacBook and is equally comparable as the MacBook straddles the NR/SR lines.
Current model vs current model the MacBook is price competitive with the Sony line.
The 2.4 Ghz 2GB RAM 160GB HDD VGN-SR190 is $1,374 on SonyStyle (BTO) vs the MacBook 2.4Ghz 2GB RAM 160GB HDD at $1,299.
Absolutely. No one's even bothered to point out that a $799. MacBook kills the Mac Mini off entirely.
I'm not sure if your right about that. I recently bought a Mac Mini with the Apple wireless keyboard and wireless mouse and I get a much bigger screen and it's almost always totally silent,running.No matter what I'm doing (ten things running at once,including video playback) it doesn't get hot or slow down.And I don't have to worry about dropping and bashing it and the resulting expensive repairs.I always have it plugged in to a great sound set-up.I know you can hook up a similar set-up with a laptop but that is likely to be by plugging it in and out all the time.It also makes for a less cluttered desk.Plus,because I already had the monitor and speakers,I saved about $100 over the unlikely price of $799 (maybe it will be started at $999) for the new base model Macbook.It's also satisfying that I didn't waste my money on extra performance,when it's done everything I've needed it to,withought any trouble.My iPhone is fine for me when I'm away from home.
Some of you don't seem to understand the laptop market.
15" and the new 16" formats with slightly better technology generally sell for LESS than 13" notebooks. This is just the way things are. Smaller is usually more expensive, unless the product is seriously limited, like netbooks.
Also, $1,000 these days does not buy you great laptop graphics chips. Most $1000 and under PC laptops also come with mediocre graphics, but this is to improve battery life more than just lower production costs. Most consumers do not need anything more than an X3100.
As for the Sony Vaio line, most of the models do not even have DVI-out, which is mandatory for any serious notebook. Even the Air has a DVI-out adapter. In order to get DVI-out, you are forced to purchase Sony's $199 dock I was considering a 12-14" Sony for awhile (to Hackintosh), but the lack of digital output is a deal breaker.
I had a new 16" Sony FW series and will tell you: while the CPU is outstanding (speed + incredibly low heat, idle 35C, medium load at 40C!), the standard screen is AWFUL, and the overall build quality is garbage compared to a MacBook Pro.
Some ppl should just go buy PC laptops if the specs appeal to them more. For me, OSX in itself is enough to more than justify any real or perceived price difference between mb/mbp's and pc's. Flowing on from that then is the ability to use Apple's pro-Apps, which combined with their hardware makes a stable, reliable working environment that can't be matched elsewhere, imo.
IF apple decides to price more aggressively, then of course they will be seen to be more accessible. but i don't think that their hardware is over-priced, all things (such as engineering, design, software development etc) considered.
Some ppl should just go buy PC laptops if the specs appeal to them more. For me, OSX in itself is enough to more than justify any real or perceived price difference between mb/mbp's and pc's. Flowing on from that then is the ability to use Apple's pro-Apps, which combined with their hardware makes a stable, reliable working environment that can't be matched elsewhere, imo.
IF apple decides to price more aggressively, then of course they will be seen to be more accessible. but i don't think that their hardware is over-priced, all things (such as engineering, design, software development etc) considered.
Well in that case, maybe you could toss an extra five-hundred bucks my way, since that's how much it costs to get an equally-equipped Apple laptop, and you don't seem to be all too concerned with giving out free money
Well in that case, maybe you could toss an extra five-hundred bucks my way, since that's how much it costs to get an equally-equipped Apple laptop, and you don't seem to be all too concerned with giving out free money
See, that is where you and everyone else that harps on about this "apple tax", "apple premium" etc etc is wrong. As i said, engineering, design, software development all costs money and apple are entitled to retrieve that through the price of the hardware they sell.
For the luxury of not having to worry about viruses, of not having to run anti-virus software that slows down my computer and makes the whole computing experience a pain in the arse, it is worth it.
Comments
$999 is not agressive.
Uh huh, but it's aggressive.
You're missing the part where he is comparing a Mac that came out in February to a Sony that is only available for pre-order. Or that the entry level price is to get you in the door and then up sell you on HW that costs the same but they charge more for because it looks like a better deal. It's all explained, right down to those Sony's using the old hat 65nm Merom processors. Since Apple's prices are consistent with their entire line since they don't do the bait and upsell or deal with older or inferior chipsets that appear to the layman as being "as good" you have to compare similar machines. If you aren't doing that then you are just fooling yourself. That is to say, if you did buy that Sony and didn't change anything on the build you would be getting a machine that is a better value than what Apple offers on a piece-by-piece comparison, but only on that single entry level configuration.
Yeah I know.
I would suppose most of the misconception that macs are overpriced are based on this faulty comparison of laptops that just came out vs. 6 month old macs.
Yeah I know.
I would suppose most of the misconception that macs are overpriced are based on this faulty comparison of laptops that just came out vs. 6 month old macs.
That is an issue with Macs, The OEMs will do those incremental updates and Apple sticks to it's 6 to 8 month update cycle that follows Intel's releases. The MBA was unusual for Apple as it actually lowered the price of the SSD after other vendors started offering them at a lower price a couple months down the road.
PS: I think we may be seeing a wider range of MacBook CPU configurations from Apple this time around. My reasoning is that Apple has been using only a handful of Intel chips for its entire Mac line. The MB currently only uses 2 different chips and the MBP 3 different chips, and the same 2.4GHz chip is used in both the high-end MB and low-end MBP.
This limited build option may be simple but it could be causing some production delays and pushing back releases of new Macs as their sales keep exploding. Other vendors do the bulk of their sales on the lower end so they don't need as many of the new Intel chips as Apple does out of the gate. When Apple starts selling Montevina/Penryn you can bet their stores will be stocked with display models for testing and machines you can take home that day, not a BTO option where you wait 10 days for it to be shipped from the factory in Hanoi.
With all this growth either Apple has to use more chips to keep Intel's production from being constrained too much, Apple has to just wait a little longer than other OEMs before converting their line, or Intel has to make special accommodations for Apple.
You're missing the part where he is comparing a Mac that came out in February to a Sony that is only available for pre-order. Or that the entry level price is to get you in the door and then up sell you on HW that costs the same but they charge more for because it looks like a better deal. It's all explained, right down to those Sony's using the old hat 65nm Merom processors.
I'm still waiting for clarification from you on that point. And as I said above, I realize I'm comparing an end-of-life Mac to a brand new Sony, but the point is to show where Apple is now with price/performance, and where they need to go with their next model.
Since Apple's prices are consistent with their entire line since they don't do the bait and upsell or deal with older or inferior chipsets that appear to the layman as being "as good" you have to compare similar machines.
Isn't that what the Mac Mini is? Don't you have to spend no less than $2300 just to get a desktop with expansion slots? And $2800 just to get a 17" screen on a notebook?
If you aren't doing that then you are just fooling yourself. That is to say, if you did buy that Sony and didn't change anything on the build you would be getting a machine that is a better value than what Apple offers on a piece-by-piece comparison, but only on that single entry level configuration.
Oh I don't know about that. The next model up in the Sony line, with Blu-Ray playback and 4GB of RAM for $999, doesn't look too shabby either.
I'm still waiting for clarification from you on that point.
I went to a lot of trouble breaking down the different processors in regards to the technology and how older PCU is being pared with a new package. I can't be anymore through. If it's an explanation of what the different terms means and how they affect performance I don't have the time or patience to go into that.
Isn't that what the Mac Mini is?
The Mac Mini is a desktop machine built with notebook-grade components. It's small size means it costs more. You can build your own PC version and it will cost the same or a little more than the Mini, depending on the OS used. It is, however, dreadfully outdated. It hasn't been refreshed ina about a year. I figure Apple may replace it with something else next month as it's not a bad move to draw out an item that you are about to retire. You get a few more sales before your product is ready and it makes the new one look that much better in comparison.
I don't know about that. The next model up in the Sony line, with Blu-Ray playback and 4GB of RAM for $999, doesn't look too shabby either.
Then go for it. You still aren't looking at equivalent HW. Since Apple is limited in their options why not take a Mac and then match it to another vendor with equivalent HW, not cheapest from a vendor to cheapest from Apple.
You still aren't looking at equivalent HW. Since Apple is limited in their options why not take a Mac and then match it to another vendor with equivalent HW, not cheapest from a vendor to cheapest from Apple.
Sony has often been considered one of the more expensive vendors, but ok then:
Apple MacBook $1099
2.1Ghz T8100, 800Mhz FSB, 3MB Cache
1GB RAM
120GB Hard Drive
Play DVDs, Burn CDs
Webcam, Bluetooth, Wifi
Dell XPS M1330 $1099
2.4Ghz T8300, 800Mhz FSB, 3MB Cache
3GB RAM
320GB Hard Drive
Burn DVDs, Burn CDs
Webcame, Bluetooth, Wifi
Downloading update as I speak. Now restarting.
LOLs wrong thread...
Meh, I gots my mac pro for the heavy stuff, I'd be happy with a watered down, very portable, very cheap macbook
You mean an Air for half the price!
I'm still waiting for clarification from you on that point. And as I said above, I realize I'm comparing an end-of-life Mac to a brand new Sony, but the point is to show where Apple is now with price/performance, and where they need to go with their next model.
When you compare next, the odds are that you will find that the MB is very price competitive with the Sony. Which part of that is hard to understand? It's a bad time to buy a MB today. When it refreshes it's a good time.
Oh I don't know about that. The next model up in the Sony line, with Blu-Ray playback and 4GB of RAM for $999, doesn't look too shabby either.
Except that the MB will likely be a 2.26Ghz machine. Until Sony releases with real pricing it still can be changed.
The Sony VAIO NR with those specs is $849.99 on SonyStyle. No webcam, no BT, no FW400 but does come with an expresscard slot which is nice.
The Sony VAIO SR is more expensive than the MacBook and is equally comparable as the MacBook straddles the NR/SR lines.
Current model vs current model the MacBook is price competitive with the Sony line.
The 2.4 Ghz 2GB RAM 160GB HDD VGN-SR190 is $1,374 on SonyStyle (BTO) vs the MacBook 2.4Ghz 2GB RAM 160GB HDD at $1,299.
Absolutely. No one's even bothered to point out that a $799. MacBook kills the Mac Mini off entirely.
I'm not sure if your right about that. I recently bought a Mac Mini with the Apple wireless keyboard and wireless mouse and I get a much bigger screen and it's almost always totally silent,running.No matter what I'm doing (ten things running at once,including video playback) it doesn't get hot or slow down.And I don't have to worry about dropping and bashing it and the resulting expensive repairs.I always have it plugged in to a great sound set-up.I know you can hook up a similar set-up with a laptop but that is likely to be by plugging it in and out all the time.It also makes for a less cluttered desk.Plus,because I already had the monitor and speakers,I saved about $100 over the unlikely price of $799 (maybe it will be started at $999) for the new base model Macbook.It's also satisfying that I didn't waste my money on extra performance,when it's done everything I've needed it to,withought any trouble.My iPhone is fine for me when I'm away from home.
October makes sense since Europe just started their BTS promo... Man I was hoping for September though...
Me 2.
15" and the new 16" formats with slightly better technology generally sell for LESS than 13" notebooks. This is just the way things are. Smaller is usually more expensive, unless the product is seriously limited, like netbooks.
Also, $1,000 these days does not buy you great laptop graphics chips. Most $1000 and under PC laptops also come with mediocre graphics, but this is to improve battery life more than just lower production costs. Most consumers do not need anything more than an X3100.
As for the Sony Vaio line, most of the models do not even have DVI-out, which is mandatory for any serious notebook. Even the Air has a DVI-out adapter. In order to get DVI-out, you are forced to purchase Sony's $199 dock
I had a new 16" Sony FW series and will tell you: while the CPU is outstanding (speed + incredibly low heat, idle 35C, medium load at 40C!), the standard screen is AWFUL, and the overall build quality is garbage compared to a MacBook Pro.
Uhh really? So .. "life savings" just goes in a mattress somewhere?
Careful! In some families, the phrase "going to the mattresses" has a VERY different meaning!
LOLs wrong thread...
Or, just plain old WRONG!
1) Slight bump in specs across the board
2) Case re-design (a given) and multi-touch across the board
3) $100 price drop for each level of MB and MBP
4) Larger price drop for MBA
IF apple decides to price more aggressively, then of course they will be seen to be more accessible. but i don't think that their hardware is over-priced, all things (such as engineering, design, software development etc) considered.
The Mini is over priced beyond all reason.
Some ppl should just go buy PC laptops if the specs appeal to them more. For me, OSX in itself is enough to more than justify any real or perceived price difference between mb/mbp's and pc's. Flowing on from that then is the ability to use Apple's pro-Apps, which combined with their hardware makes a stable, reliable working environment that can't be matched elsewhere, imo.
IF apple decides to price more aggressively, then of course they will be seen to be more accessible. but i don't think that their hardware is over-priced, all things (such as engineering, design, software development etc) considered.
Well in that case, maybe you could toss an extra five-hundred bucks my way, since that's how much it costs to get an equally-equipped Apple laptop, and you don't seem to be all too concerned with giving out free money
Well in that case, maybe you could toss an extra five-hundred bucks my way, since that's how much it costs to get an equally-equipped Apple laptop, and you don't seem to be all too concerned with giving out free money
See, that is where you and everyone else that harps on about this "apple tax", "apple premium" etc etc is wrong. As i said, engineering, design, software development all costs money and apple are entitled to retrieve that through the price of the hardware they sell.
For the luxury of not having to worry about viruses, of not having to run anti-virus software that slows down my computer and makes the whole computing experience a pain in the arse, it is worth it.
Why do you want an apple computer, by the way?