New MacBook case leaks question FireWire's future

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  • Reply 21 of 321
    I want to mirror rawhead's comments. When I first saw the MacBook case photo earlier it looked like the FireWire port has disappeared. I am not really surprised to see it being phased out--switching iPods to all USB sounded the first gong of that death-knell a long time ago--but I do wonder about some of the utilities of the FireWire that may be lost in the consumer level laptop (that now have me rethinking whether I want to jump on getting a MacBook over a MBP.)



    First, are using FireWire for both target disc and for migration. My understanding was that was the best (only?) way to migrate everything from one machine to a new one was FireWire. Related to that, you can't boot off a USB drive. In emergencies--such as one I had last week--I used my Firewire 3G iPod as an emergency boot up drive for my PowerBook. The option of booting from anything other than a DVD would presumably be lost with FireWire being phased out?



    Second, what would this mean for the MacBook as a video machine, even at the consumer level. I have a mini DV camera that I hook up with FireWire. Am I SOL with a FireWireless MacBook if I want to use it to edit video off my mini DV video camera?
  • Reply 22 of 321
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DanielJvdBerg View Post


    The port on the left corner is obviously a MagSafe connector.





    It's not MagSafe. It doesn't make sense for it to be there, and besides, if you look at another pic on the site



    http://www.macx.cn/a/a4000I695495.htm



    (2nd from top)



    You'll see there's a MagSafe port where it should be; just next to the ethernet port.





    I agree that the proportion of the taped port closely resembles that of an eSATA port



    e.g.:

    http://1toppc.com/Merchant2/images/N...V1S-A1/I-2.jpg





    eSATA support is long over due so I welcome its addition, if true, although I won't be moving up to a MBP just for that. I want something smaller than a 15"!!!!!1!!!11
  • Reply 23 of 321
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post


    ...the majority of the cameras are USB nowadays or use DVD's to record onto.



    Sorry, but Mini DVDs are a godawful way to record video for editing (try to get some footage of quick motion with their MPEG2 transport streams), and when did you last see a USB capture profile in FCP? DV and HDV are still used heavily by indie film makers.
  • Reply 24 of 321
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,804moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Buck View Post


    I for one am worried about being unable to use the computers in target disk mode, it's so insanely useful it's not even funny. Unless Apple provides similar functionality via USB it's one thing I'm going to miss greatly.



    I was thinking that myself. Firewire target mode is extremely useful.



    I also don't get the Mini-DVI references. As someone said, just googling for it shows that it's bigger than a usb port by quite a long way. The image shows a port smaller than USB:







    It is the right shape but the size is just way off. Maybe they just shrunk it so we have to buy all new adaptors.



    The lack of a firewire port still leaves the brick idea to be some wireless hub I guess. Time Machine works over wifi so I guess firewire boot over wifi will work too. You still don't get the speed benefit though. Firewire is about 30% faster than USB - I think this is due to bad USB drivers in OS X though.
  • Reply 25 of 321
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rawhead View Post


    It's not MagSafe. It doesn't make sense for it to be there, and besides, if you look at another pic on the site

    http://www.macx.cn/a/a4000I695495.htm (2nd from top)

    You'll see there's a MagSafe port where it should be; just next to the ethernet port.

    I agree that the proportion of the taped port closely resembles that of an eSATA port.

    e.g.: http://1toppc.com/Merchant2/images/N...V1S-A1/I-2.jpg

    eSATA support is long over due so I welcome its addition, if true, although I won't be moving up to a MBP just for that. I want something smaller than a 15"!!!!!1!!!11



    I'm not saying you are wrong, but I don't see what you are getting at. The 2nd pic you mention looks like a MagSafe adapter-sized port me. Now flip it to represent the top side and it still fits the image.



    I do like the idea of the eSATA since it can be made backwards compatible to the FireWires and USBs with a a simple adaptor, but what is with the the circle hole next to it? I don't even have a far fetched idea to account for it.
  • Reply 26 of 321
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JBridges View Post


    Second, what would this mean for the MacBook as a video machine, even at the consumer level. I have a mini DV camera that I hook up with FireWire. Am I SOL with a FireWireless MacBook if I want to use it to edit video off my mini DV video camera?





    Again, I would be fine with the abolishment of FW from Macbooks so long as they deal with the target disc mode / migration issue. Booting off of USB drives is NOT a problem any more.





    Regarding video; well, it's the sign of the times, I suppose. I just put out an ad in Craigslist for my 5 year old Victor DV cam. While I won't be getting a dedicated video camera for a little while (if ever, the way things are looking on the DSLR front), most consumers will now go for, as they should, any number of the AVCHD video cams that use SDs and other flash media.
  • Reply 27 of 321
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    I'm not saying you are wrong, but I don't see what you are getting at. The 2nd pic you mention looks like a MagSafe adapter-sized port me. Now flip it to represent the top side and it still fits the image.





    The taped port is to the left of the palm rest (looking from above), right? So in the picture, the taped port is at the bottom right, because we're looking at the other side:













    If you look at the very top right of that pic, you will see the MagSafe port, right next to the ethernet port, exactly where it should be; at the top left corner when you're looking at the keyboard from above. Am I missing something?





    Unless you just miss-read the "covered-up section at the front-left corner" in the article as meaning that MagSafe port we're both talking about ;-)
  • Reply 28 of 321
    zunxzunx Posts: 620member
    FIREWIRE IS ESSENTIAL FOR:



    - Repairs via Target Disk Mode.

    - Connection to Firewire camcorders.

    - Fast and efficient file transfer (Retrospect backups, Time Machine backps, etc). PARTICULARLY FOR LARGE FILES.



    EVEN FIREWIRE 400 is much faster, efficient and trouble-free than USB 2.



    Is Apple fool? NO FIREWIRE, NO PURCHASE!!!
  • Reply 29 of 321
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rawhead View Post


    at the top left corner when you're looking at the keyboard from above. Am I missing something?



    Yes, I think we are talking about he same thing.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zunx View Post


    FIREWIRE IS ESSENTIAL FOR:



    - Repairs via Target Disk Mode.



    - Connection to Firewire camcorders.



    - Fast and efficient file transfer (Retrospect backups, Time Machine backps, etc). PARTICULARLY FOR LARGE FILES.



    EVEN FIREWIRE 400 is much faster, efficient and trouble-free than USB 2.



    Is Apple fool? NO FIREWIRE, NO PURCHASE!!!



    I think if Apple included sSATA insteead of USB and FW400/800 they could allow for much fastervdata access and backwards compatibility. The only downside would backing to use a small dongle until the rest of the industry caught up, but eSATA seems to be the future-forward industry move.



    I would love to use eSATA ports on my external 1TB drives if Apple offered it. Adding a few simple dongles for the time being would not be anti-Apple in any way and help push a faster, better standard, as they've done in the past.



  • Reply 30 of 321
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,951member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post


    The MacBook is an entry level laptop with the biggest rumour for it this year centring around the possibility that the price point might start below a thousand dollars. Anyone who thinks the designers should base some of their design choices around the tiny group that want to use it as a portable video editing platform are just stupid.



    It is an artificial distinction. The "consumer" model is only slightly slower, and a dedicated graphics chip is only necessary for Motion. Except for Motion, FCS 2 works on IGP-based Macs.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Galley View Post


    I can understand going only with a FW800 port (and possibly including a FW400 adapter)on the MBP, but why on earth would they drop FireWire completely from the MacBook?



    Maybe it's just a sign of the times. Even assuming, FW400 wasn't just replaced by 800, then maybe it really isn't necessarily as bad as it seems. In part because of Apple's mishandling of it, Firewire never really took off and its remaining niche is dwindling, not increasing. Firewire devices are usually better, but it can't compete with USB on cost.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Buck View Post


    I for one am worried about being unable to use the computers in target disk mode, it's so insanely useful it's not even funny. Unless Apple provides similar functionality via USB it's one thing I'm going to miss greatly.



    Migration Assistant for Air uses the network to do its equivalent of "Target Mode" transfers.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JayInSF View Post


    With the superior performance of FW800, there's really no need for multiple ports on the computer. The one 800 megabit per second port can handle pretty much all your I/O needs. FW800 is overkill for a single disk drive. It is extreme overkill for a video camera. FW800 can comfortably handle the I/O bandwidth for multiple drives simultaneously. Just plug 'em in.



    Not quite true. The theoretical bandwidth is there, but the people that I know that do a lot of video say that running your capture device and target storage on the same bus occasionally results in dropped frames. The standard practice is to try to keep them on separate busses whenever possible.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JBridges View Post


    Related to that, you can't boot off a USB drive. In emergencies--such as one I had last week--I used my Firewire 3G iPod as an emergency boot up drive for my PowerBook.



    This changed with the Intel systems, they now offer a way to boot from USB.



    Quote:

    Second, what would this mean for the MacBook as a video machine, even at the consumer level. I have a mini DV camera that I hook up with FireWire. Am I SOL with a FireWireless MacBook if I want to use it to edit video off my mini DV video camera?



    Maybe. I do have a USB hub that has Firewire ports though, that might work, even if it's an odd beast. I've never really tried it.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dariusperkins View Post


    Sorry, but Mini DVDs are a godawful way to record video for editing (try to get some footage of quick motion with their MPEG2 transport streams), and when did you last see a USB capture profile in FCP? DV and HDV are still used heavily by indie film makers.



    The reason why you don't see "USB Capture Profile" is because it is not called that, trust me, that feature is there. That function falls under "Log and Transfer". USB is a decent means of media transfer for this, I've used this for capturing AVCHD over USB from an SD card.



    Some AVCHD camcorders save to DVDs, and that too is supported by FCP. The only problem is that the promise of solid state being a faster than real time transfer doesn't stack up with AVCHD, because Apple's software takes just about as long to convert it to a codec they can edit.
  • Reply 31 of 321
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    I would love to use eSATA ports on my external 1TB drives if Apple offered it. Adding a few simple dongles for the time being would not be anti-Apple in any way and help push a faster, better standard, as they've done in the past.[/IMG]



    It's still annoying since I don't think eSATA supports power. In that respect Firewire is more convenient, especially for portable hard drives rather than just external storage, since everything can be bus-powered requiring only a single cable.
  • Reply 32 of 321
    wobegonwobegon Posts: 764member
    At first glance, I thought the new MacBook Pro's trackpad hadn't changed in size.



    Oh, how wrong I was:



    Current MacBook Pro





    New MacBook Pro





    That's gonna be a nice improvement.



    Looks as though those glass/MultiTouch display trackpads aren't coming after all, though. We'll see.
  • Reply 33 of 321
    rolorolo Posts: 686member
    There are such things as USB to FireWire adapters so I don't know what the fuss is about. Apple might even include one. Here's one model on the market that hooks up to FireWire camcorders:



  • Reply 34 of 321
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JBridges View Post


    Related to that, you can't boot off a USB drive.



    Nonsense, of course you can, I have done it many times!



    I imagine the plastered over port is? HDMI.



    If they are putting Blu Ray Drives then it make sense. Apple Cinema Displays can then be connected by HDMI, without requiring a mini DVI 2.0 connector (or whatever that thing is next to the USB ports).
  • Reply 35 of 321
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wobegon View Post


    At first glance, I thought the new MacBook Pro's trackpad hadn't changed in size.



    Oh, how wrong I was:



    image ::http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/2041/...ery-big-07.jpg

    image :: http://down.wally.in:8081/ftp/pic/161567.jpg

    That's gonna be a nice improvement.



    Those pics look like a current MBP and a current MBA. WHile the most recent MBP did get the multi-touch gesture support, the trackpad HW did not change. I suspect that the new MBPs (and MBs) will al least get the larger MBA trackpad with multi-touch gesture support.... if they don't get a full multi-ouch trackpad with visual output display oppion.
  • Reply 36 of 321
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    Seriously guys look closely at these cases and the only possibility for battery placement. It seems obvious that these machines are going to have one big ass battery. Either that or they are going to new technology with respect to energy storage.



    I bring this up for a couple of reasons. One the spy shot that implies a full length battery. New tech for batteries being announced and made ready for a major computer and cell phone company. Finally Apples boost about new products not being touchable by the competition.



    Since nothing has really cropped up to indicate that there is other tech going into the laptops to fill the innovation and sprint ahead role I'm thinking it has to be that big allocation of space for a battery that will separate these machines from the competition.



    Silver - Zinc anyone?





    Dave



    In reference to the battery and competition... HP has a laptop with a 24hr runtime. Dell is at 18hrs. And there both priced below the MBP. But yea I think we'll see 70+ Whr batterys in the pro's easily. Maybe, JUST MAYBE dual HD's in the 17".
  • Reply 37 of 321
    macosxpmacosxp Posts: 152member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post


    What can you see of the icon labels on the MacBook ports if the image is blown up? Can we be sure what's being called a mini-DVI port on the MB and MBP isn't actually for a B-type USB receptacle, which would enable a USB-based target disk mode?



    The picture of the MacBook, the picture clearly shows a small monitor indicating the mini-DVI and it also clearly indicates the usb symbol for the regular usb ports.



    On the picture of the MBP, it also shows the DVI icon next to the cutout.



    The only thing is the cutout for the mini-dvi on the MB looks misshaped.



    Anyway guys, the very fact that we are only seeing casings is an indication that this is not a completely final version. If we can all sit tight for two days we'll have something real to look at.
  • Reply 38 of 321
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by columbus View Post


    Nonsense, of course you can, I have done it many times!



    I imagine the plastered over port is? HDMI.



    If they are putting Blu Ray Drives then it make sense. Apple Cinema Displays can then be connected by HDMI, without requiring a mini DVI 2.0 connector (or whatever that thing is next to the USB ports).



    Yep and with a USB A-A cable you can boot from target disk on any INTEL mac (PPC never supported USB Target disc). It's in the OS X certification courses too.
  • Reply 39 of 321
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by macosxp View Post


    The picture of the MacBook, the picture clearly shows a small monitor indicating the mini-DVI and it also clearly indicates the usb symbol for the regular usb ports.



    On the picture of the MBP, it also shows the DVI icon next to the cutout.



    The only thing is the cutout for the mini-dvi on the MB looks misshaped.



    Anyway guys, the very fact that we are only seeing casings is an indication that this is not a completely final version. If we can all sit tight for two days we'll have something real to look at.



    MCP79 supports Displayport.... So let's not 100% say Mini-DVI yet.
  • Reply 40 of 321
    virgil-tb2virgil-tb2 Posts: 1,416member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2


    ... The MacBook is an entry level laptop with the biggest rumour for it this year centring around the possibility that the price point might start below a thousand dollars. Anyone who thinks the designers should base some of their design choices around the tiny group that want to use it as a portable video editing platform are just stupid.



    It is an artificial distinction. The "consumer" model is only slightly slower, and a dedicated graphics chip is only necessary for Motion. Except for Motion, FCS 2 works on IGP-based Macs.



    I don't know what you are getting at here it makes no sense as a retort to my comment.



    My point was twofold:



    1) MacBooks are cheap entry level systems so to expect them to be used for serious video production is nonsense. They should, like all Mac products be *able* to do video editing, but not jump through any design hoops to do so.



    2) Most video cameras in use today and in the last few years have a USB connector or both a USB and Firewire connector. Consumer level cameras in line with the consumer level MacBook that have only firewire and no USB are very rare indeed.



    The real downside to not having firewire, is the loss of target disc mode.



    But then it's not Apple's fault that after years of promoting FireWire, none of the other big PC companies and camera companies jumped on board. If Apple is phasing out FireWire, it's just a sad but understandable result of windows based PC's not evolving to include it when they could have.
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