...Blu-ray discs, which have yet to make a significant impact on the market outside of a videophile niche.
Blu-Ray discs are accounting for up to 13% of DVD sales, which is more than double what it was in March. A niche yes, but a rapidly growing niche that puts internet-based movie series like Apple TV to shame. Apple won't even separate their movie sales from rentals, instead saying that they rent or sell 50,000 movies a day. I would estimate at least 90% of those are rentals, but even 25% would only be 87,500 movie sales a week. By contrast, Iron Man alone on Blu-Ray sold half a million copies in seven days.
Granted, it's not for everyone, but after seeing the $215 Popcorn Hour—the one that most closely matches the AppleTV HW specs—not work because of Vista, not to mention the complete lack of both a HDD and WiFi the AppleTV is an exceptional deal. The only crutch is that you need to perform the simple and quick task of installing the appropriate codecs via the USB port on a flash drive.
The Popcorn Hour has a WiFi option for around $17. It also takes standard IDE/SATA HDDs, which are very cheap these days and go up to 1.5TB in size. Codec support is also exceptional and supports 1080p playback.
It's an "enthusiast" device though. The UI is incredibly slow and there's quite a few niggling issues with it.
There is next to no content delivered at 1080p outside of Blu-ray discs, which have yet to make a significant impact on the market outside of a videophile niche.
That's a ridiculous and biased comment if ever there was one. Blu-ray halted HD DVD and that's not significant? All studios and most electronics companies with the exception of Apple (yet- watch Wed) have a significant commitment in blu-ray- that's not an impact??
And wait until after the 4th Q, a lot of people will be eating their words.
1080i? Not in any spec I've ever seen. Unless you just mean upscaling 720p to 1080i, but that's not "video" playback.
AppleTV provides nominal support for 1080i. Since the output resolution is offered, it is supported and the statement is correct.
AppleTV doesn't have a display where you could apply the phrase "native resolution", any content that doesn't match the selected output resolution will be scaled.
That's the way the device should work.
Of course it would be nice for Apple to upgrade their hardware, but without useful 1080p content online, that would be completely worthless.
The limited usefulness of any of those mentioned devices can be blamed on the studios not releasing their content in fear of cannibalizing their DVD sales, not Apple, Sony, etc. It's that simple.
Blu-Ray discs are accounting for up to 13% of DVD sales, which is more than double what it was in March. A niche yes, but a rapidly growing niche that puts internet-based movie series like Apple TV to shame. Apple won't even separate their movie sales from rentals, instead saying that they rent or sell 50,000 movies a day. I would estimate at least 90% of those are rentals, but even 25% would only be 87,500 movie sales a week. By contrast, Iron Man alone on Blu-Ray sold half a million copies in seven days.
In the case of "Iron-Man" Apple can't even sell the HD version or even rent the movie in either format. This is why statistical comparisons are so worthless at this point.
Each market/channel works under different rules driven by content providers. Online always comes last...
If AppleTV had a DVD player (or better yet, a BluRay player) then I would replace my existing DVD player with that in a shot. My TV only has so many inputs, and while I'm more than willing to give movie rentals and purchases from the iTunes store a go, I have *a lot* of DVDs that I'm not going to give up any time soon.
I don't have any burning need for BluRay discs but if I am going to invest in another home entertainment gadget at this point it ought to add something to what I can already do so I'm future-proofing myself to some extent. Better still would be a Mac Mini with BluRay...
I tell ya what, it would be pretty cool if Apple released their own TV sets as long as they use the eye candy you expect from Apple when channel hopping. For the UK, built in FreeView tuners are a must or possibly built in FreeSat tuners. I'm hoping this isn't just going to be bundling an Apple TV with regular TVs as that would be stupid. The current Apple TV is generally useless unless you hack it to bits so you can play videos that aren't quicktime formats.
That's a ridiculous and biased comment if ever there was one. Blu-ray halted HD DVD and that's not significant? All studios and most electronics companies with the exception of Apple (yet- watch Wed) have a significant commitment in blu-ray- that's not an impact??
And wait until after the 4th Q, a lot of people will be eating their words.
Eating what words? The average consumer appears satisfied with watching upscaled DVD's in a $50 player instead of spending $10 more for a BD disk.
The commitment of the electronics industry is really of little relevance here. Unless BD disk prices drop to near the price of standard DVD's, you will not see phenomenal shifts (and certainly not by 4Q)
I wondered why no one released a WiFi LCD HDTV yet! I've heard about LG releasing one last year but nothing since.
Yes, you are sort of right. I have one of those LG WiFi-enabled LCD HDTVs (LN46A750 -- nice TV, btw). Unfortunately, streaming content from a computer is limited to wired ethernet connections (using DLNA which does not work very well -- I've tried it using Twonky, a commercial DLNA server with mixed results). Their WiFi protocol provides very limited content (e.g. weather). A fully-fledge wireless system from Apple to work with Samsung televisions would be great.
1080i? Not in any spec I've ever seen. Unless you just mean upscaling 720p to 1080i, but that's not "video" playback.
Alot of Cable TV stations broadcast in 1080i. Basically the bandwith of digital cable today only alows for either 720p or 1080i.
Most stations go with 720p but a few go with the much higher resolution 1080i. (interlaced) Unfortunately you only get to see half the picture at a time, resulting in a little more flicker.
1080p though is THE ONLY FUTURE FOR TV and the sharpness is incredible. Apple knows that, and they know that nobody else provides an easy way to get content.
Eating what words? The average consumer appears satisfied with watching upscaled DVD's in a $50 player instead of spending $10 more for a BD disk.
The commitment of the electronics industry is really of little relevance here. Unless BD disk prices drop to near the price of standard DVD's, you will not see phenomenal shifts (and certainly not by 4Q)
And certainly not given the current state (actual or perceived) of the economy. People aren't going to be thinking about paying $10 more PER DISC when they are scrapping for gas money. DVD sales might be ok and movie tickets will do very well (historically speaking recessions/depressions spur huge box office numbers) but the push to BD is going to be slower than Sony (and others) had hoped.
I think the fact that Apple doesn't sell HDTVs in it's stores while it does sell projectors, cameras and other media peripherals is proof that they have plans to develop their own HDTV product at some point.
Apple will not start selling HD monitors. That's a commodity market, already saturated by companies with WAY more experience and focus than Apple. Takes up LOTs of warehouse space which Apple doesn't have in its retail chain.
They REALLY will not start selling Monitors with AppleTVs built in.
The market for all-in-one TVs with built-in everything died years ago, and I don't see anyone who wants to have their digital technology (DVR, DVD, etc) tied to their monitor. Even cable-cards have died a quiet death.
I would agree with you - but that's exactly what many said about Apple entering the cell phone market. Given the success the iPhone has had, it wouldn't be all that crazy to enter the TV market. However, the time may not be right yet, especially given current economic issues. I am certain there is a strategy to do it when the time is right. My guess is that the AppleTV was really testing the waters and that the endgame is an HDTV with all its features.
If AppleTV had a DVD player (or better yet, a BluRay player) then I would replace my existing DVD player with that in a shot. My TV only has so many inputs, and while I'm more than willing to give movie rentals and purchases from the iTunes store a go, I have *a lot* of DVDs that I'm not going to give up any time soon.
I don't have any burning need for BluRay discs but if I am going to invest in another home entertainment gadget at this point it ought to add something to what I can already do so I'm future-proofing myself to some extent. Better still would be a Mac Mini with BluRay...
-Rolf
That's definitely not going to happen. The whole concept of the machine is to deliver digital content (via Internet/network), not physical media.
And it would push AppleTV to a price point where simply too few people would buy it.
The PS3 is a perfect example. Sony has been choking on the cost of the device for a long time, trying to sell a console that was simply too expensive for many. And that was even based on a model where the console is already sold at/below costs to sell high-margin games.
I don't think even the lower-end XBox 360 has made a single buck for Microsoft.
Blu-Ray discs are accounting for up to 13% of DVD sales, which is more than double what it was in March. A niche yes, but a rapidly growing niche that puts internet-based movie series like Apple TV to shame. Apple won't even separate their movie sales from rentals, instead saying that they rent or sell 50,000 movies a day. I would estimate at least 90% of those are rentals, but even 25% would only be 87,500 movie sales a week. By contrast, Iron Man alone on Blu-Ray sold half a million copies in seven days.
This is just hyperbole.
The article states that BluRay is a niche at this point and you reply with ... yes it is.
Then you quote all these obviously "managed" industry numbers after the fact.
Sure Iron Man "sold" a half a million copies, but I remember when DVD first came out in North America and "Lost in Space" sold a ridiculously high amount of copies also. In fact you couldn't buy a DVD player without having a copy of "Lost in Space" tossed in the bag with it at the time. These early sales figures generated by the industry itself are full of loss-leader items and promotional arrangements that have very little to do with the actual popularity of the medium.
Ask anyone who works at a Bookstore what the Best Seller list really represents. DVD's and BluRay are no different.
I think the fact that Apple doesn't sell HDTVs in it's stores while it does sell projectors, cameras and other media peripherals is proof that they have plans to develop their own HDTV product at some point.
A point that many overlook in retail is that TV's are not a cash cows anymore and deliver incredibly low margins.
That combined with expensive shelf/storage space, reasonably high return/damage rates doesn't make a compelling argument to carry, let alone manufacture a HDTV.
When selling a single 23" Cinema Display, Apple makes a more money than Best Buy selling a 46" HDTV.
Apple should (and I think will) boost the current Apple TV product up a notch or two. But no chance of Apple shipping their own brand of TV. As others have indicated - it's a saturated market with little if any way of differentiating yourself.
It would be nice if a TV existed with the existing Apple TV's functionality, plus an iPod dock. They'd sell a few, but not enough to sustain the product(s).
Best to give the existing product a big boost (3.5" hard drive, maybe an optional BD drive, bluetooth, SDK) and let Best Buy push it with every TV no matter what size or brand.
A point that many overlook in retail is that TV's are not a cash cows anymore and deliver incredibly low margins.
That combined with expensive shelf/storage space, reasonably high return/damage rates doesn't make a compelling argument to carry, let alone manufacture a HDTV.
When selling a single 23" Cinema Display, Apple makes a more money than Best Buy selling a 46" HDTV.
And that 23" or 30" ACD is often being used with one of Apple's MBPs or Mac Pros, which only enhances the sale of the two products.
AppleTV provides nominal support for 1080i. Since the output resolution is offered, it is supported and the statement is correct.
[...]
Of course it would be nice for Apple to upgrade their hardware, but without useful 1080p content online, that would be completely worthless.
The rest of that statement was about video playback resolutions. As far as I know, Apple TV does not support 1080i playback, which is what the statement implied. It's pretty much required to support input/output scaling between 720p and 1080i to be considered an HDTV compatible device.
I can record 1080i right now off my cable box or various USB tuners. I don't need 1080p content to be online for it to be useful.
I would agree with you - but that's exactly what many said about Apple entering the cell phone market. Given the success the iPhone has had, it wouldn't be all that crazy to enter the TV market. However, the time may not be right yet, especially given current economic issues. I am certain there is a strategy to do it when the time is right. My guess is that the AppleTV was really testing the waters and that the endgame is an HDTV with all its features.
As always, time will tell.
But I'll stick by my bet that the market for all-in-one televisions is going down, not up.
The various technologies change too rapidly for anyone with common sense to get stuck with needing to get a new monitor if advances happen in the content player. Or is everyone here still using one of those TVs with built-in VCR?
And Apple is not going to start selling 50" monitors out of their stores... ain't gonna happen. That's a BIG difference from selling tiny little boxes with iPhones in them.
Comments
...Blu-ray discs, which have yet to make a significant impact on the market outside of a videophile niche.
Blu-Ray discs are accounting for up to 13% of DVD sales, which is more than double what it was in March. A niche yes, but a rapidly growing niche that puts internet-based movie series like Apple TV to shame. Apple won't even separate their movie sales from rentals, instead saying that they rent or sell 50,000 movies a day. I would estimate at least 90% of those are rentals, but even 25% would only be 87,500 movie sales a week. By contrast, Iron Man alone on Blu-Ray sold half a million copies in seven days.
Granted, it's not for everyone, but after seeing the $215 Popcorn Hour—the one that most closely matches the AppleTV HW specs—not work because of Vista, not to mention the complete lack of both a HDD and WiFi the AppleTV is an exceptional deal. The only crutch is that you need to perform the simple and quick task of installing the appropriate codecs via the USB port on a flash drive.
The Popcorn Hour has a WiFi option for around $17. It also takes standard IDE/SATA HDDs, which are very cheap these days and go up to 1.5TB in size. Codec support is also exceptional and supports 1080p playback.
It's an "enthusiast" device though. The UI is incredibly slow and there's quite a few niggling issues with it.
There is next to no content delivered at 1080p outside of Blu-ray discs, which have yet to make a significant impact on the market outside of a videophile niche.
That's a ridiculous and biased comment if ever there was one. Blu-ray halted HD DVD and that's not significant? All studios and most electronics companies with the exception of Apple (yet- watch Wed) have a significant commitment in blu-ray- that's not an impact??
And wait until after the 4th Q, a lot of people will be eating their words.
1080i? Not in any spec I've ever seen. Unless you just mean upscaling 720p to 1080i, but that's not "video" playback.
AppleTV provides nominal support for 1080i. Since the output resolution is offered, it is supported and the statement is correct.
AppleTV doesn't have a display where you could apply the phrase "native resolution", any content that doesn't match the selected output resolution will be scaled.
That's the way the device should work.
Of course it would be nice for Apple to upgrade their hardware, but without useful 1080p content online, that would be completely worthless.
The limited usefulness of any of those mentioned devices can be blamed on the studios not releasing their content in fear of cannibalizing their DVD sales, not Apple, Sony, etc. It's that simple.
Blu-Ray discs are accounting for up to 13% of DVD sales, which is more than double what it was in March. A niche yes, but a rapidly growing niche that puts internet-based movie series like Apple TV to shame. Apple won't even separate their movie sales from rentals, instead saying that they rent or sell 50,000 movies a day. I would estimate at least 90% of those are rentals, but even 25% would only be 87,500 movie sales a week. By contrast, Iron Man alone on Blu-Ray sold half a million copies in seven days.
In the case of "Iron-Man" Apple can't even sell the HD version or even rent the movie in either format. This is why statistical comparisons are so worthless at this point.
Each market/channel works under different rules driven by content providers. Online always comes last...
I don't have any burning need for BluRay discs but if I am going to invest in another home entertainment gadget at this point it ought to add something to what I can already do so I'm future-proofing myself to some extent. Better still would be a Mac Mini with BluRay...
-Rolf
Xbox Media Centre TV. Now THAT would be awesome.
That's a ridiculous and biased comment if ever there was one. Blu-ray halted HD DVD and that's not significant? All studios and most electronics companies with the exception of Apple (yet- watch Wed) have a significant commitment in blu-ray- that's not an impact??
And wait until after the 4th Q, a lot of people will be eating their words.
Eating what words? The average consumer appears satisfied with watching upscaled DVD's in a $50 player instead of spending $10 more for a BD disk.
The commitment of the electronics industry is really of little relevance here. Unless BD disk prices drop to near the price of standard DVD's, you will not see phenomenal shifts (and certainly not by 4Q)
I wondered why no one released a WiFi LCD HDTV yet! I've heard about LG releasing one last year but nothing since.
Yes, you are sort of right. I have one of those LG WiFi-enabled LCD HDTVs (LN46A750 -- nice TV, btw). Unfortunately, streaming content from a computer is limited to wired ethernet connections (using DLNA which does not work very well -- I've tried it using Twonky, a commercial DLNA server with mixed results). Their WiFi protocol provides very limited content (e.g. weather). A fully-fledge wireless system from Apple to work with Samsung televisions would be great.
1080i? Not in any spec I've ever seen. Unless you just mean upscaling 720p to 1080i, but that's not "video" playback.
Alot of Cable TV stations broadcast in 1080i. Basically the bandwith of digital cable today only alows for either 720p or 1080i.
Most stations go with 720p but a few go with the much higher resolution 1080i. (interlaced) Unfortunately you only get to see half the picture at a time, resulting in a little more flicker.
1080p though is THE ONLY FUTURE FOR TV and the sharpness is incredible. Apple knows that, and they know that nobody else provides an easy way to get content.
So i believe (and hope) Apple will make a TV!
Eating what words? The average consumer appears satisfied with watching upscaled DVD's in a $50 player instead of spending $10 more for a BD disk.
The commitment of the electronics industry is really of little relevance here. Unless BD disk prices drop to near the price of standard DVD's, you will not see phenomenal shifts (and certainly not by 4Q)
And certainly not given the current state (actual or perceived) of the economy. People aren't going to be thinking about paying $10 more PER DISC when they are scrapping for gas money. DVD sales might be ok and movie tickets will do very well (historically speaking recessions/depressions spur huge box office numbers) but the push to BD is going to be slower than Sony (and others) had hoped.
Apple will not start selling HD monitors. That's a commodity market, already saturated by companies with WAY more experience and focus than Apple. Takes up LOTs of warehouse space which Apple doesn't have in its retail chain.
They REALLY will not start selling Monitors with AppleTVs built in.
The market for all-in-one TVs with built-in everything died years ago, and I don't see anyone who wants to have their digital technology (DVR, DVD, etc) tied to their monitor. Even cable-cards have died a quiet death.
I would agree with you - but that's exactly what many said about Apple entering the cell phone market. Given the success the iPhone has had, it wouldn't be all that crazy to enter the TV market. However, the time may not be right yet, especially given current economic issues. I am certain there is a strategy to do it when the time is right. My guess is that the AppleTV was really testing the waters and that the endgame is an HDTV with all its features.
If AppleTV had a DVD player (or better yet, a BluRay player) then I would replace my existing DVD player with that in a shot. My TV only has so many inputs, and while I'm more than willing to give movie rentals and purchases from the iTunes store a go, I have *a lot* of DVDs that I'm not going to give up any time soon.
I don't have any burning need for BluRay discs but if I am going to invest in another home entertainment gadget at this point it ought to add something to what I can already do so I'm future-proofing myself to some extent. Better still would be a Mac Mini with BluRay...
-Rolf
That's definitely not going to happen. The whole concept of the machine is to deliver digital content (via Internet/network), not physical media.
And it would push AppleTV to a price point where simply too few people would buy it.
The PS3 is a perfect example. Sony has been choking on the cost of the device for a long time, trying to sell a console that was simply too expensive for many. And that was even based on a model where the console is already sold at/below costs to sell high-margin games.
I don't think even the lower-end XBox 360 has made a single buck for Microsoft.
Blu-Ray discs are accounting for up to 13% of DVD sales, which is more than double what it was in March. A niche yes, but a rapidly growing niche that puts internet-based movie series like Apple TV to shame. Apple won't even separate their movie sales from rentals, instead saying that they rent or sell 50,000 movies a day. I would estimate at least 90% of those are rentals, but even 25% would only be 87,500 movie sales a week. By contrast, Iron Man alone on Blu-Ray sold half a million copies in seven days.
This is just hyperbole.
The article states that BluRay is a niche at this point and you reply with ... yes it is.
Then you quote all these obviously "managed" industry numbers after the fact.
Sure Iron Man "sold" a half a million copies, but I remember when DVD first came out in North America and "Lost in Space" sold a ridiculously high amount of copies also. In fact you couldn't buy a DVD player without having a copy of "Lost in Space" tossed in the bag with it at the time. These early sales figures generated by the industry itself are full of loss-leader items and promotional arrangements that have very little to do with the actual popularity of the medium.
Ask anyone who works at a Bookstore what the Best Seller list really represents. DVD's and BluRay are no different.
I think the fact that Apple doesn't sell HDTVs in it's stores while it does sell projectors, cameras and other media peripherals is proof that they have plans to develop their own HDTV product at some point.
A point that many overlook in retail is that TV's are not a cash cows anymore and deliver incredibly low margins.
That combined with expensive shelf/storage space, reasonably high return/damage rates doesn't make a compelling argument to carry, let alone manufacture a HDTV.
When selling a single 23" Cinema Display, Apple makes a more money than Best Buy selling a 46" HDTV.
It would be nice if a TV existed with the existing Apple TV's functionality, plus an iPod dock. They'd sell a few, but not enough to sustain the product(s).
Best to give the existing product a big boost (3.5" hard drive, maybe an optional BD drive, bluetooth, SDK) and let Best Buy push it with every TV no matter what size or brand.
So: Would be cool, but won't happen.
A point that many overlook in retail is that TV's are not a cash cows anymore and deliver incredibly low margins.
That combined with expensive shelf/storage space, reasonably high return/damage rates doesn't make a compelling argument to carry, let alone manufacture a HDTV.
When selling a single 23" Cinema Display, Apple makes a more money than Best Buy selling a 46" HDTV.
And that 23" or 30" ACD is often being used with one of Apple's MBPs or Mac Pros, which only enhances the sale of the two products.
AppleTV provides nominal support for 1080i. Since the output resolution is offered, it is supported and the statement is correct.
[...]
Of course it would be nice for Apple to upgrade their hardware, but without useful 1080p content online, that would be completely worthless.
The rest of that statement was about video playback resolutions. As far as I know, Apple TV does not support 1080i playback, which is what the statement implied. It's pretty much required to support input/output scaling between 720p and 1080i to be considered an HDTV compatible device.
I can record 1080i right now off my cable box or various USB tuners. I don't need 1080p content to be online for it to be useful.
I would agree with you - but that's exactly what many said about Apple entering the cell phone market. Given the success the iPhone has had, it wouldn't be all that crazy to enter the TV market. However, the time may not be right yet, especially given current economic issues. I am certain there is a strategy to do it when the time is right. My guess is that the AppleTV was really testing the waters and that the endgame is an HDTV with all its features.
As always, time will tell.
But I'll stick by my bet that the market for all-in-one televisions is going down, not up.
The various technologies change too rapidly for anyone with common sense to get stuck with needing to get a new monitor if advances happen in the content player. Or is everyone here still using one of those TVs with built-in VCR?
And Apple is not going to start selling 50" monitors out of their stores... ain't gonna happen. That's a BIG difference from selling tiny little boxes with iPhones in them.