Just to be clear, my argument that a sub-$1000 Mac would be targeting typical non-Mac users who don't use FW and that the current MacBook models would still have FW included.
By focusing on non-Mac users, and ignoring Mac users, you are throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Like with the other major PC OEMs, offering an $899 entry-level price may work out well. But I'm guessing that this low pricepoint will come with a combo-drive, 1GB RAM, and a slower CPU (perhaps even Montevina/Merom, that can all be upgraded to just under the speed of the the next highest MacBook at $1,299.
By focusing on non-Mac users, and ignoring Mac users, you are throwing the baby out with the bath water.
1) If Apple didn't focus on "non-Mac users" they would not be having the current growth spout we are witnessing.
2) I never said, nor implied, that Apple should forego their MacBook, MacBook Pro, MacBook Air, Mac Mini, or Mac Pro line of computers. I merely stated that they need to move into new areas in order to maintain their current growth. I even outlined some ways in which Apple can achieve this growth rate.
3) What is it with the "all or nothing" attitude of some posters around here. I mention that Apple would benefit from offering a lower priced PC to stimulate new growth which somehow make implies that Apple is going to drop the rest of the it's Mac market? That is as ridiculous as the claims that Apple's foray into iPods and iPhones means that they don't care about their PC market any longer.
Like with the other major PC OEMs, offering an $899 entry-level price may work out well. But I'm guessing that this low pricepoint will come with a combo-drive, 1GB RAM, and a slower CPU (perhaps even Montevina/Merom, that can all be upgraded to just under the speed of the the next highest MacBook at $1,299.
Lets hope that it comes with 2gbs of RAM and Super Drive. If not most users will completely skip this model. This is supposed to be the model that will grow the addressable market by nearly 70% so it really ought to to a legitimately usable machine and not a crippled machine used to upsell buyers to the next model up.
If anything put in a slower CPU. OSX runs quite well on a 2.0 ghz core 2 cpu. Even the old 65 nm Meroms. But put in enough RAM so that the new to Mac users have a good experience with their first Mac instead of wondering why their machine is slow.
If anything put in a slower CPU. OSX runs quite well on a 2.0 ghz core 2 cpu. Even the old 65 nm Meroms. But put in enough RAM so that the new to Mac users have a good experience with their first Mac instead of wondering why their machine is slow.
Absolutely. That's a no-brainer area to cut costs. Frankly, a DVD burner, 2GB of RAM, and a decent-size hard drive are a lot more important than a really fast CPU to the audience this machine would be targeted at.
1) If Apple didn't focus on "non-Mac users" they would not be having the current growth spout we are witnessing.
2) I never said, nor implied, that Apple should forego their MacBook, MacBook Pro, MacBook Air, Mac Mini, or Mac Pro line of computers. I merely stated that they need to move into new areas in order to maintain their current growth. I even outlined some ways in which Apple can achieve this growth rate.
3) What is it with the "all or nothing" attitude of some posters around here. I mention that Apple would benefit from offering a lower priced PC to stimulate new growth which somehow make implies that Apple is going to drop the rest of the it's Mac market? That is as ridiculous as the claims that Apple's foray into iPods and iPhones means that they don't care about their PC market any longer.
Not quite, You are comfortable with the MacBook dropping FW in order to produce an attractive price point for switchers, and many of us are not. That is not an all or nothing attitude, why should we as loyal Mac users be forced to pay the much higher of a MacBook Pro in order to get FW, just to draw PC users into our MacBook?
Not quite, You are comfortable with the MacBook dropping FW in order to produce an attractive price point for switchers, and many of us are not. That is not an all or nothing attitude, why should we as loyal Mac users be forced to pay the much higher of a MacBook Pro in order to get FW, just to draw PC users into our MacBook?
i think what solipsism is referring to, if i may be forgiven for speaking for him, is the lowest priced MB (ie. aimed at a new new market) dropping firewire. We don't know how the whole range will be spec'd out yet.
fwiw, i agree with those who need FW for audio and video, on both the technical and fiscal points... i hope there is some fw support in at least one model of MB.
The funny thing is both USB and FW were supposed to reduce needed ports. USB via hubs and FW via daisychaining yet that's not quiet how reality has worked out. What a paradox.
I think this is why combining firewire with the ethernet network interface is the next logical step. Think how easy it will be to share devices this way. Simply plug your firewire drive straight into a compatible wireless router and you've got a wifi Time Machine backup.
It's also far better for live recording because it supports much longer cable lengths and at a push you might even get away with wireless (HDV is only 25 Mbps). Imagine being able to position a camera absolutely anywhere while shooting and recording live. You can probably split a wired connection much more easily too.
The ideal scenario IMO is that we have one interface for everything. In the end, no matter if you are running a mouse, a display, a hard drive, it's all computer data. The only reason we have multiple interfaces is that they are created by different people for different reasons with different licensing and different performance.
Take bluetooth - why aren't we running our mice and keyboards over wifi? We have 802.11n capable of 300 Mbps max with a range of hundreds of meters and yet we use a 2 Mbps standard with a range of a few feet.
One reason I think FW 400 should disappear is due to the issue with the plug. There has been major damage caused to computers by inserting a worn plug in the wrong way round. This is a huge design flaw. I always triple-check a FW 400 plug before putting it in.
The cables and plugs are also very heavy.
If there is no FW capability at all, it will be disappointing but if it has combined FW/Gig-E, it will be a big step forward. S800T is an IEEE standard and published in June last year. This means that it's relatively new and it's about time someone started using it. Given that Apple developed firewire, it makes sense they should be the first to implement it.
I don't disagree with your reasons for wanting FW, but I have to ask why the products you linked to above can't be used via USB2.0. Does it need the extra power of FW400?
1. Can't daisy chain USB devices, need a Hub.
2. If you carry a hub, you'll then need to carry the power adapter.
3. If you have Combo external HDD kits with 1394 + USB, they will operate off 1394 bus power but not USB bus power; therefore, you'll need to carry the extra power adapters.
I'm figuring if I bought a new MacBook without 1394, I'd end up having to schlep an extra 4 to 6 pounds of weight just from the #@$%!&*!# power adapters. So, all that effort by Apple in reducing the weight of the laptop is now more than swallowed up by additional extraneous materials that must accompany the new laptop due to it's weaknesses as a portable machine.
Add to that the reduced WiFi range of aluminum vs plastic, and what's the point? If all of this is true, the new MacBooks are a huge step down from the last generation.
Adding a $4 TI PHY/LINK 1394 Combo chip, a few cents in R's & C's and a 50c 6 pin 1394 connector just doesn't blow the BOM cost out of the water, it's completely illogical. And space is NOT a consideration here; Fujitsu can jam 3 USB2.0 & one 1394a ports into their 12.1" portable - why can't Apple do this in a 13" portable? There's no excuse.
i think what solipsism is referring to, if i may be forgiven for speaking for him, is the lowest priced MB (ie. aimed at a new new market) dropping firewire. We don't know how the whole range will be spec'd out yet.
fwiw, i agree with those who need FW for audio and video, on both the technical and fiscal points... i hope there is some fw support in at least one model of MB.
Thanks, that is exactly what I was saying. I thought I was quite clear in my statement. I will not be buying any Mac that doesn't have FW, but I forge that some on this forum (perhaps it's just the nature of some) only have an "all or nothing" perspective, so if I saw that sub-$1000, entry-level MB wouldn't have FW, it somehow means to others that no MB would have FW.
I have no doubt that the persons responsible for this leak meant to get the Mac base up in arms about the lack of Firewire. Generating buzz is priority one in Cupertino.
While Jobs is crazy enough to use FW as a Pro differentiator, it comes with several downsides.
1) It relegates an Apple-technology to obscurity. It's hard enough to find FW peripherals now.
2) It condemns FW3200 to failure. Considering the interest Apple's shown in development, this is nuts.
3) It removes a vital feature. Target Disk Mode.
4) It kills any chance of a sleek docking solution. Apple's current portable are connected to a maze of wires on the desk.
Windows users can attach everything with one plug. Why can't a Mac?
5) It takes away one more point that Macs have over PCs.
6) It takes away from the iLife experience.
7) It angers users for no good reason. The miniscule savings are not comparable to the original iMac's embrace of USB.
2. If you carry a hub, you'll then need to carry the power adapter.
3. If you have Combo external HDD kits with 1394 + USB, they will operate off 1394 bus power but not USB bus power; therefore, you'll need to carry the extra power adapters.
I'm figuring if I bought a new MacBook without 1394, I'd end up having to schlep an extra 4 to 6 pounds of weight just from the #@$%!&*!# power adapters. So, all that effort by Apple in reducing the weight of the laptop is now more than swallowed up by additional extraneous materials that must accompany the new laptop due to it's weaknesses as a portable machine.
Add to that the reduced WiFi range of aluminum vs plastic, and what's the point? If all of this is true, the new MacBooks are a huge step down from the last generation.
Adding a $4 TI PHY/LINK 1394 Combo chip, a few cents in R's & C's and a 50c 6 pin 1394 connector just doesn't blow the BOM cost out of the water, it's completely illogical. And space is NOT a consideration here; Fujitsu can jam 3 USB2.0 & one 1394a ports into their 12.1" portable - why can't Apple do this in a 13" portable? There's no excuse.
Why the degradation? It just makes no sense.
Beat me to it. The cost of adding FW is negligible, not adding any significant cost to a computer. While the absence of one creates unnecessary difficulties.
If this rumor is true, count me in the loss of FW as brain dead.
Just to clarify, my opinion includes the lowest priced laptop in these rumors. I would predict FW not being dropped from any laptops starting @ $1299 if Gruber's conjecture is true.
Sadly. I can see Apple doing this, removing the firewire, because honestly this company makes some pretty dumb mistakes from time to time. The craziest thing is they do them for no good reason. You can go out there right now and buy a $800 PC laptop that comes with USB, firewire, HDMI, VGA, Expresscard, ect. So what's the issue keeping the firewire around? It's not like dropping firewire is suddenly going to make the price $200 cheaper.
If this rumor is true, it's just Apple being retarded and I won't buy one.
Removing the firewire port is not a great move on the surface, but we don't have enough information to determine if there is a backup solution, or something else entirely that will make up for it. The cat-5 firewire idea has merit, although unlikely, could be implemented in software.
We'll have to see what's coming.
Also, I think that idea that that mystery opening in the front of the MBP being the battery display is right.
can go out there right now and buy a $800 PC laptop that comes with USB, firewire, HDMI, VGA, Expresscard, ect. So what's the issue keeping the firewire around? It's not like dropping firewire is suddenly going to make the price $200 cheaper.
Maybe the FW-less model is just the lowest MB (the rumored $900 one?) and all others will actually sport a normal FW connector.
Maybe the FW-less model is just the lowest MB (the rumored $900 one?) and all others will actually sport a normal FW connector.
I think it's obvious that FireWire 400 is dead as far as Mac laptops are concerned. The best that can be hoped for is that there will be 13" MacBook models with FireWire 800, but don't hold your breath.
Maybe the FW-less model is just the lowest MB (the rumored $900 one?) and all others will actually sport a normal FW connector.
I think it's been established that the $899 price point is intended for a new 24" display. I know; expensive for a 24" unless there are some extraordinary new features.
I think it's obvious that FireWire 400 is dead as far as Mac laptops are concerned. The best that can be hoped for is that there will be 13" MacBook models with FireWire 800, but don't hold your breath.
Comments
Thanks.
Just to be clear, my argument that a sub-$1000 Mac would be targeting typical non-Mac users who don't use FW and that the current MacBook models would still have FW included.
By focusing on non-Mac users, and ignoring Mac users, you are throwing the baby out with the bath water.
By focusing on non-Mac users, and ignoring Mac users, you are throwing the baby out with the bath water.
1) If Apple didn't focus on "non-Mac users" they would not be having the current growth spout we are witnessing.
2) I never said, nor implied, that Apple should forego their MacBook, MacBook Pro, MacBook Air, Mac Mini, or Mac Pro line of computers. I merely stated that they need to move into new areas in order to maintain their current growth. I even outlined some ways in which Apple can achieve this growth rate.
3) What is it with the "all or nothing" attitude of some posters around here. I mention that Apple would benefit from offering a lower priced PC to stimulate new growth which somehow make implies that Apple is going to drop the rest of the it's Mac market? That is as ridiculous as the claims that Apple's foray into iPods and iPhones means that they don't care about their PC market any longer.
The price lists from the link below look pretty legitimate to me.Like with the other major PC OEMs, offering an $899 entry-level price may work out well. But I'm guessing that this low pricepoint will come with a combo-drive, 1GB RAM, and a slower CPU (perhaps even Montevina/Merom, that can all be upgraded to just under the speed of the the next highest MacBook at $1,299.
Lets hope that it comes with 2gbs of RAM and Super Drive. If not most users will completely skip this model. This is supposed to be the model that will grow the addressable market by nearly 70% so it really ought to to a legitimately usable machine and not a crippled machine used to upsell buyers to the next model up.
If anything put in a slower CPU. OSX runs quite well on a 2.0 ghz core 2 cpu. Even the old 65 nm Meroms. But put in enough RAM so that the new to Mac users have a good experience with their first Mac instead of wondering why their machine is slow.
If anything put in a slower CPU. OSX runs quite well on a 2.0 ghz core 2 cpu. Even the old 65 nm Meroms. But put in enough RAM so that the new to Mac users have a good experience with their first Mac instead of wondering why their machine is slow.
Absolutely. That's a no-brainer area to cut costs. Frankly, a DVD burner, 2GB of RAM, and a decent-size hard drive are a lot more important than a really fast CPU to the audience this machine would be targeted at.
1) If Apple didn't focus on "non-Mac users" they would not be having the current growth spout we are witnessing.
2) I never said, nor implied, that Apple should forego their MacBook, MacBook Pro, MacBook Air, Mac Mini, or Mac Pro line of computers. I merely stated that they need to move into new areas in order to maintain their current growth. I even outlined some ways in which Apple can achieve this growth rate.
3) What is it with the "all or nothing" attitude of some posters around here. I mention that Apple would benefit from offering a lower priced PC to stimulate new growth which somehow make implies that Apple is going to drop the rest of the it's Mac market? That is as ridiculous as the claims that Apple's foray into iPods and iPhones means that they don't care about their PC market any longer.
Not quite, You are comfortable with the MacBook dropping FW in order to produce an attractive price point for switchers, and many of us are not. That is not an all or nothing attitude, why should we as loyal Mac users be forced to pay the much higher of a MacBook Pro in order to get FW, just to draw PC users into our MacBook?
Not quite, You are comfortable with the MacBook dropping FW in order to produce an attractive price point for switchers, and many of us are not. That is not an all or nothing attitude, why should we as loyal Mac users be forced to pay the much higher of a MacBook Pro in order to get FW, just to draw PC users into our MacBook?
i think what solipsism is referring to, if i may be forgiven for speaking for him, is the lowest priced MB (ie. aimed at a new new market) dropping firewire. We don't know how the whole range will be spec'd out yet.
fwiw, i agree with those who need FW for audio and video, on both the technical and fiscal points... i hope there is some fw support in at least one model of MB.
The funny thing is both USB and FW were supposed to reduce needed ports. USB via hubs and FW via daisychaining yet that's not quiet how reality has worked out. What a paradox.
I think this is why combining firewire with the ethernet network interface is the next logical step. Think how easy it will be to share devices this way. Simply plug your firewire drive straight into a compatible wireless router and you've got a wifi Time Machine backup.
It's also far better for live recording because it supports much longer cable lengths and at a push you might even get away with wireless (HDV is only 25 Mbps). Imagine being able to position a camera absolutely anywhere while shooting and recording live. You can probably split a wired connection much more easily too.
The ideal scenario IMO is that we have one interface for everything. In the end, no matter if you are running a mouse, a display, a hard drive, it's all computer data. The only reason we have multiple interfaces is that they are created by different people for different reasons with different licensing and different performance.
Take bluetooth - why aren't we running our mice and keyboards over wifi? We have 802.11n capable of 300 Mbps max with a range of hundreds of meters and yet we use a 2 Mbps standard with a range of a few feet.
One reason I think FW 400 should disappear is due to the issue with the plug. There has been major damage caused to computers by inserting a worn plug in the wrong way round. This is a huge design flaw. I always triple-check a FW 400 plug before putting it in.
The cables and plugs are also very heavy.
If there is no FW capability at all, it will be disappointing but if it has combined FW/Gig-E, it will be a big step forward. S800T is an IEEE standard and published in June last year. This means that it's relatively new and it's about time someone started using it. Given that Apple developed firewire, it makes sense they should be the first to implement it.
I don't disagree with your reasons for wanting FW, but I have to ask why the products you linked to above can't be used via USB2.0. Does it need the extra power of FW400?
1. Can't daisy chain USB devices, need a Hub.
2. If you carry a hub, you'll then need to carry the power adapter.
3. If you have Combo external HDD kits with 1394 + USB, they will operate off 1394 bus power but not USB bus power; therefore, you'll need to carry the extra power adapters.
I'm figuring if I bought a new MacBook without 1394, I'd end up having to schlep an extra 4 to 6 pounds of weight just from the #@$%!&*!# power adapters. So, all that effort by Apple in reducing the weight of the laptop is now more than swallowed up by additional extraneous materials that must accompany the new laptop due to it's weaknesses as a portable machine.
Add to that the reduced WiFi range of aluminum vs plastic, and what's the point? If all of this is true, the new MacBooks are a huge step down from the last generation.
Adding a $4 TI PHY/LINK 1394 Combo chip, a few cents in R's & C's and a 50c 6 pin 1394 connector just doesn't blow the BOM cost out of the water, it's completely illogical. And space is NOT a consideration here; Fujitsu can jam 3 USB2.0 & one 1394a ports into their 12.1" portable - why can't Apple do this in a 13" portable? There's no excuse.
Why the degradation? It just makes no sense.
i think what solipsism is referring to, if i may be forgiven for speaking for him, is the lowest priced MB (ie. aimed at a new new market) dropping firewire. We don't know how the whole range will be spec'd out yet.
fwiw, i agree with those who need FW for audio and video, on both the technical and fiscal points... i hope there is some fw support in at least one model of MB.
Thanks, that is exactly what I was saying. I thought I was quite clear in my statement. I will not be buying any Mac that doesn't have FW, but I forge that some on this forum (perhaps it's just the nature of some) only have an "all or nothing" perspective, so if I saw that sub-$1000, entry-level MB wouldn't have FW, it somehow means to others that no MB would have FW.
While Jobs is crazy enough to use FW as a Pro differentiator, it comes with several downsides.
1) It relegates an Apple-technology to obscurity. It's hard enough to find FW peripherals now.
2) It condemns FW3200 to failure. Considering the interest Apple's shown in development, this is nuts.
3) It removes a vital feature. Target Disk Mode.
4) It kills any chance of a sleek docking solution. Apple's current portable are connected to a maze of wires on the desk.
Windows users can attach everything with one plug. Why can't a Mac?
5) It takes away one more point that Macs have over PCs.
6) It takes away from the iLife experience.
7) It angers users for no good reason. The miniscule savings are not comparable to the original iMac's embrace of USB.
1. Can't daisy chain USB devices, need a Hub.
2. If you carry a hub, you'll then need to carry the power adapter.
3. If you have Combo external HDD kits with 1394 + USB, they will operate off 1394 bus power but not USB bus power; therefore, you'll need to carry the extra power adapters.
I'm figuring if I bought a new MacBook without 1394, I'd end up having to schlep an extra 4 to 6 pounds of weight just from the #@$%!&*!# power adapters. So, all that effort by Apple in reducing the weight of the laptop is now more than swallowed up by additional extraneous materials that must accompany the new laptop due to it's weaknesses as a portable machine.
Add to that the reduced WiFi range of aluminum vs plastic, and what's the point? If all of this is true, the new MacBooks are a huge step down from the last generation.
Adding a $4 TI PHY/LINK 1394 Combo chip, a few cents in R's & C's and a 50c 6 pin 1394 connector just doesn't blow the BOM cost out of the water, it's completely illogical. And space is NOT a consideration here; Fujitsu can jam 3 USB2.0 & one 1394a ports into their 12.1" portable - why can't Apple do this in a 13" portable? There's no excuse.
Why the degradation? It just makes no sense.
Beat me to it. The cost of adding FW is negligible, not adding any significant cost to a computer. While the absence of one creates unnecessary difficulties.
If this rumor is true, count me in the loss of FW as brain dead.
Just to clarify, my opinion includes the lowest priced laptop in these rumors. I would predict FW not being dropped from any laptops starting @ $1299 if Gruber's conjecture is true.
If this rumor is true, it's just Apple being retarded and I won't buy one.
We'll have to see what's coming.
Also, I think that idea that that mystery opening in the front of the MBP being the battery display is right.
can go out there right now and buy a $800 PC laptop that comes with USB, firewire, HDMI, VGA, Expresscard, ect. So what's the issue keeping the firewire around? It's not like dropping firewire is suddenly going to make the price $200 cheaper.
Maybe the FW-less model is just the lowest MB (the rumored $900 one?) and all others will actually sport a normal FW connector.
Maybe the FW-less model is just the lowest MB (the rumored $900 one?) and all others will actually sport a normal FW connector.
I think it's obvious that FireWire 400 is dead as far as Mac laptops are concerned. The best that can be hoped for is that there will be 13" MacBook models with FireWire 800, but don't hold your breath.
Maybe the FW-less model is just the lowest MB (the rumored $900 one?) and all others will actually sport a normal FW connector.
I think it's been established that the $899 price point is intended for a new 24" display. I know; expensive for a 24" unless there are some extraordinary new features.
I think it's been established that the $899 price point is intended for a new 24" display.
I am not yet convinced
I think it's obvious that FireWire 400 is dead as far as Mac laptops are concerned. The best that can be hoped for is that there will be 13" MacBook models with FireWire 800, but don't hold your breath.
Is there not some compatibility between the two?