MBP LED display hurts my eyes!

2»

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 36
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    You're pretty strongly ruling things out here. You don't think any of the possible reasons I put forth are plausible?



    Your argument boils down to: "it works for me, therefore it must work for everyone", which is irresponsible when there are alternative explanations.



    I say it works for most folks, and they're selling like hotcakes!
  • Reply 22 of 36
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,951member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cubit View Post


    Actually, Jeff, I think you have your response reversed; your post and Jessie's problem implies that "It doesn't work for me, so it's not working for anyone else."



    I did not say that. I think this response says that you really did not read my post, because I was clear that most display technologies do work for most people. There are often nuances that don't necessarily mean that the display is defective in itself, or that the person's eyes are bad, and I gave two such examples relevant to other types of displays. Another is fluorescent lights - their flicker from the older low frequency ballasts bothers *some* people, though the quality (part-to-part match) maybe just fine, just that the lower frequency ballasts are easier to see, the flicker problem usually goes away with the newer high frequency ballasts.



    I am skeptical that ergonomic issues are likely to be at play if the problem did not arise with the previous display technology. They can be, but the likelihood is lower.
  • Reply 23 of 36
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by remcoy View Post


    it's strange, my eyes really start to really hurt after a few minutes with my the new LED Macbook Pro. I'm assuming it has to do with the method used to dim the display. It's like knives in my sockets...! headache inducing..



    Didn't your machine come RDF filter goggles?
  • Reply 24 of 36
    Hi - first post here. I'm in the process of moving to Mac hardware from PC land. Have a Mini and a Touch 2G, and have been trying to find a laptop that I can use comfortably.



    Early this year I had a MBP for a few days before returning it. I've had plenty of eye difficulty on different computers and monitors so some of these comments might help folks here.



    People are already talking about refresh rate, glare, and screen brightness. Yes try to minimize all those issues as best possible.



    There are multiple types of eye discomfort. It will help if you can learn to describe it. Is the eye itself or are the muscles around the eye sore like a sore muscle? Is it like a headache behind or in the eye? Or are the eyes bloodshot, sting when open, and do the symptoms disappear if you walk away from the computer and go outside and spend time in fresh air?



    For those switching from iMac to laptop, consider that the distance between eyes and screen could be really different than what you are used to. If your eyes simply feel tired or like they are working too hard then take a tape measure and check the distance from your eyes to the screen several times during the day. Go get your eyes checked and ask specifically what your prescription would be for 'task glasses' if you keep your screen XX inches from your face.



    If this sounds like it might help, do remember to look away from your laptop to a distant object every few minutes. The pain could be a spasm of the focus muscles due to long term fixed focus. The eyes are supposed to be used dynamically and a long term spasm can hurt your eyesight, typically making you more near sighted.



    Glare and a screen image that is too far behind the faceplate glass can make the eyes hunt for the correct focus. It is exhausting and results in pain. Another thing proven to cause the eyes to struggle for focus is ClearType-like font antialiasing or smoothing technology. At the pixel or subpixel level, font smoothing blurs the edges of the characters. The eye is looking for hard boundaries between the characters and background to determine the quality of focus. Turn ClearType off in Windows and turn smoothing to the lowest setting and largest font possible on the Mac Display settings. Text will look more jaggy and less bold but the eyes will be better able to maintain focus and you'll likely be able to spend more hours at the computer.



    Matte screens can blur text characters - the Apple Cinema Displays are pretty bad about this. Glare sucks but so does the typical Apple Matte finish. Look to Eizo for good matte LCDs.



    And finally, if your eyes are red, feel best closed or away from your computer - the problem is likely not optical or vision related.



    Computers vent a cocktail of fumes. Things like toluene, benzene, chlorine, and bromine, VOCs, phthalates, aldehydes and rosins might be part of what you can smell in the fan exhaust or may not be detectable by you. Even if you can't smell the cocktail rest assured that it exists and that part of the population is sensitive enough to smell it or suffer symptoms upon exposure.



    Remember that laptops put everything from CPU, GPU, power supply, PCB, LCD - very close to your face.



    Among the chemically sensitive, folks that have been injured by chemical exposures or have genetic or immune system issues that make it hard to recover from seemingly insignificant exposures, it is commonly held that new computer products get worse each year. As CPU speeds and temps increase, more BFR compounds are used on circuits and plastics to avoid fires. The high temps cause faster outgassing and the fumes may not fade significantly over time as the machine ages.



    So how do you test if you are having an allergic or sensitivity reaction to the chemicals coming out of your computer?



    Any of these could be a good test:

    - Spend the day using your laptop outdoors. Lots of fresh air will keep you from sitting in a cloud of exhaust. Just using a fan at your desk could provide some better air but indoor air is typically much worse than outdoor.



    - Set your laptop, computer, or LCD up so they stay active and don't go into sleep mode. Maintain your typical distance to the suspected item and get comfortable watching TV on another device or reading a book. If you need to block the light of the screen, do so without letting the equipment cool off and without redirecting exhaust airflow in a way that would be different when you use the computer. The idea is to stay in the cloud of exhaust but focus your eyes on something else for a few hours.



    If the eyes hurt just because you are near the warm equipment and not because you are looking at it, then you most probably have a problem with the exhaust from the device and not the optics. This is the situation I'm in and is why I returned the MBP early this year.



    The Late 2008 MB and MBP are supposed to be non-toxic, according to the Apple hype. But if you do some digging you'll see that Apple defines 'chlorine and bromine free' to mean "less that 900 ppm" - that is nearly 1 part in a thousand. Or, to be frank, a significant contamination level. The chemically sensitive and allergic folks out there can be reactive at parts per billion or less.



    Hope this helps.
  • Reply 25 of 36
    bevbev Posts: 1member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by remcoy View Post


    it's strange, my eyes really start to really hurt after a few minutes with my the new LED Macbook Pro. I'm assuming it has to do with the method used to dim the display. It's like knives in my sockets...! headache inducing..



    The other odd thing is after using the display for while, everything has a sort of rose colored tint to it when I look around the room and out the window. The display itself is really a lot more yellow than a normal LCD. I tried calibrating it with an Eye-One display2 but it's the same thing. I know these displays use blue LED with a yellow coating.. To my eyes something is really unnatural about the spectrum it produces.



    Just read some information on Wiki that LED can be hard on the eyes....the blue light particularly. I am concerned about this too as I know I have eye issues already.
  • Reply 26 of 36
    steve666steve666 Posts: 2,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Brise View Post


    Hi - first post here. I'm in the process of moving to Mac hardware from PC land. Have a Mini and a Touch 2G, and have been trying to find a laptop that I can use comfortably.



    Early this year I had a MBP for a few days before returning it. I've had plenty of eye difficulty on different computers and monitors so some of these comments might help folks here.



    People are already talking about refresh rate, glare, and screen brightness. Yes try to minimize all those issues as best possible.



    There are multiple types of eye discomfort. It will help if you can learn to describe it. Is the eye itself or are the muscles around the eye sore like a sore muscle? Is it like a headache behind or in the eye? Or are the eyes bloodshot, sting when open, and do the symptoms disappear if you walk away from the computer and go outside and spend time in fresh air?



    For those switching from iMac to laptop, consider that the distance between eyes and screen could be really different than what you are used to. If your eyes simply feel tired or like they are working too hard then take a tape measure and check the distance from your eyes to the screen several times during the day. Go get your eyes checked and ask specifically what your prescription would be for 'task glasses' if you keep your screen XX inches from your face.



    If this sounds like it might help, do remember to look away from your laptop to a distant object every few minutes. The pain could be a spasm of the focus muscles due to long term fixed focus. The eyes are supposed to be used dynamically and a long term spasm can hurt your eyesight, typically making you more near sighted.



    Glare and a screen image that is too far behind the faceplate glass can make the eyes hunt for the correct focus. It is exhausting and results in pain. Another thing proven to cause the eyes to struggle for focus is ClearType-like font antialiasing or smoothing technology. At the pixel or subpixel level, font smoothing blurs the edges of the characters. The eye is looking for hard boundaries between the characters and background to determine the quality of focus. Turn ClearType off in Windows and turn smoothing to the lowest setting and largest font possible on the Mac Display settings. Text will look more jaggy and less bold but the eyes will be better able to maintain focus and you'll likely be able to spend more hours at the computer.



    Matte screens can blur text characters - the Apple Cinema Displays are pretty bad about this. Glare sucks but so does the typical Apple Matte finish. Look to Eizo for good matte LCDs.



    And finally, if your eyes are red, feel best closed or away from your computer - the problem is likely not optical or vision related.



    Computers vent a cocktail of fumes. Things like toluene, benzene, chlorine, and bromine, VOCs, phthalates, aldehydes and rosins might be part of what you can smell in the fan exhaust or may not be detectable by you. Even if you can't smell the cocktail rest assured that it exists and that part of the population is sensitive enough to smell it or suffer symptoms upon exposure.



    Remember that laptops put everything from CPU, GPU, power supply, PCB, LCD - very close to your face.



    Among the chemically sensitive, folks that have been injured by chemical exposures or have genetic or immune system issues that make it hard to recover from seemingly insignificant exposures, it is commonly held that new computer products get worse each year. As CPU speeds and temps increase, more BFR compounds are used on circuits and plastics to avoid fires. The high temps cause faster outgassing and the fumes may not fade significantly over time as the machine ages.



    So how do you test if you are having an allergic or sensitivity reaction to the chemicals coming out of your computer?



    Any of these could be a good test:

    - Spend the day using your laptop outdoors. Lots of fresh air will keep you from sitting in a cloud of exhaust. Just using a fan at your desk could provide some better air but indoor air is typically much worse than outdoor.



    - Set your laptop, computer, or LCD up so they stay active and don't go into sleep mode. Maintain your typical distance to the suspected item and get comfortable watching TV on another device or reading a book. If you need to block the light of the screen, do so without letting the equipment cool off and without redirecting exhaust airflow in a way that would be different when you use the computer. The idea is to stay in the cloud of exhaust but focus your eyes on something else for a few hours.



    If the eyes hurt just because you are near the warm equipment and not because you are looking at it, then you most probably have a problem with the exhaust from the device and not the optics. This is the situation I'm in and is why I returned the MBP early this year.



    The Late 2008 MB and MBP are supposed to be non-toxic, according to the Apple hype. But if you do some digging you'll see that Apple defines 'chlorine and bromine free' to mean "less that 900 ppm" - that is nearly 1 part in a thousand. Or, to be frank, a significant contamination level. The chemically sensitive and allergic folks out there can be reactive at parts per billion or less.



    Hope this helps.



    I have chemical sensitivity as well and find my ibook G4 to be irritating. Did you say you had an issue with the previous Macbook Pro's? Have you tried a Mac that didn't bother you? I know my eyes won't like the glare from the new laptops so they are out. Do you know anything about the Mini? Thanks,
  • Reply 27 of 36
    Quote:

    I have chemical sensitivity as well and find my ibook G4 to be irritating. Did you say you had an issue with the previous Macbook Pro's? Have you tried a Mac that didn't bother you? I know my eyes won't like the glare from the new laptops so they are out. Do you know anything about the Mini? Thanks,



    I don't have experience with many Macs. I've read that the ibook gets stinky after a few years due to an adhesive on a large label.



    Yes, bought and returned a Macbook Pro around Jan 2008. Also bought a Mini for our entertainment center and don't tolerate it well so use it maybe once a week. It emits an odor that is hard to describe but might be some combination of sweet, vinegar and hot electronics. I can't detect the smell when it is a few feet away. Call me vain but the face acne clears up if the machine is unplugged for 4 days or so and returns within 30-60 minutes of using the thing.



    Rumor has it that a new Mini is to be released this month so I'd recommend waiting.



    This writer has much more experience dealing with these smelly macs: macopinion
  • Reply 28 of 36
    steve666steve666 Posts: 2,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Brise View Post


    I don't have experience with many Macs. I've read that the ibook gets stinky after a few years due to an adhesive on a large label.



    Yes, bought and returned a Macbook Pro around Jan 2008. Also bought a Mini for our entertainment center and don't tolerate it well so use it maybe once a week. It emits an odor that is hard to describe but might be some combination of sweet, vinegar and hot electronics. I can't detect the smell when it is a few feet away. Call me vain but the face acne clears up if the machine is unplugged for 4 days or so and returns within 30-60 minutes of using the thing.



    Rumor has it that a new Mini is to be released this month so I'd recommend waiting.



    This writer has much more experience dealing with these smelly macs: macopinion



    Thanks folr the link, looks like we're not alone. I guess I have to do as you say and wait for the new Mini to come out. Maybe also soon some company will come out with a antiglare filter for the new Macbook Pro's which are supposedly less toxic.
  • Reply 29 of 36
    messiahmessiah Posts: 1,689member
    Well I can sympathise with the comments about the 24" iMac causing headaches! I am a migraine sufferer, and I've found that my incidence rate went through the roof when I owned two glassy iMacs. Here is my experience so far:



    Displays that increase migraine incidence:

    Aluminium iMac 24" (CCFL / glassy glossy)



    Displays that have no effect on migraine incidence:

    Cinema HD Display 30" (CCFL / matte)

    Cinema HD Display 23" (CCFL / matte)

    Cinema Display 20" (CCFL / matte)



    iMac 24" (CCFL / matte)

    iMac 20" (CCFL / matte)

    iMac 17" (CCFL / matte)



    MacBook Pro 17" (CCFL / matte)

    MacBook Pro 15" (CCFL / matte)

    MacBook Air (LED / plastic glossy)

    MacBook 13" (CCFL / plastic glossy)



    I've come to the conclusion that it isn't the backlighting method that is the problem, but rather that ultra reflective glass sheet that sits between the user and the display panel itself. The problem for me is that Apple has now installed a similar panel in the new MacBooks, MacBook Pros and LED Cinema Displays.



    The Cinema HD Display 23" is my current favourite. I regularly put in 16 hour shifts without migraines ? compare that to the aluminium iMac where I get a migraine prodrome within 30 minutes of use.



    Matte is definitely the most comfortable screen to work with, with the Air's LED backlit plastic glossy panel coming a close second. I suspect that this is simply because of the Air's screen size, I'm not sure if I'd find a glossy display larger than 13" as comfortable to work with. Time will tell.
  • Reply 30 of 36
    messiahmessiah Posts: 1,689member
    A good friend of mine, who has been an artworker for the last 17 years, recently had his aging first generation Power Mac G5 replaced with a brand spanking new aluminium imac 24".



    He'd known about the upcoming switch for a few weeks, and had been really excited about getting his paws on a new aluminium iMac ever since he'd seen one of mine.



    I asked him what he thought of his new iMac the other day - fully expecting a rave review citing the increased speed etc.



    His one word review was that it was "torture".



    When I asked him to explain, he said that by the end of the first day with the new iMac was already sick of 'bobbing for Apples' ? the nickname he's given to the ritual where you have to bob your head around in order to move offending reflections out of the way. He said that in particular, working in Photoshop was beyond impossible, which is a bit of a problem given the nature of his job.



    He's now back to working with his original rig, whilst the IT manager tries to find someone else who is willing to work with the iMac. Everyone seems keen until they actually have to use it, at which point it continues to get bumped around the office. My friend is hoping to get a Mac Pro and either retain his current display, or get one of the matte Cinema Displays before they are discontinued in favour of the new glossy abortions.
  • Reply 31 of 36
    steve666steve666 Posts: 2,600member
    Is there any way we can get a Poll together to send to Apple requesting that matte screens be an option on all their products? Its coming to the point where Apple isn't offering me anything I want to buy.
  • Reply 32 of 36
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by steve666 View Post


    Is there any way we can get a Poll together to send to Apple requesting that matte screens be an option on all their products? Its coming to the point where Apple isn't offering me anything I want to buy.



    There may be some relationship between matte screens and Apples move to 'green' production. Plus I have some feedback on the new Macbooks.



    First, a typical way to etch a matte finish into glass is with strong toxic chemicals or a plastic film overlay. Both solutions would make Mac production facilities and computers more toxic. I'd rather work with the lights dim to kill reflections than the other options.



    Because of efforts to reduce use of toxic materials, Apple is probably going to stick with metal cases and non etched screens (just my guess). Or until some magic, green and highly repeatable glass treatment is found. Maybe laser or plasma etching is possible. Don't know.



    Even the anti-reflective coating put on high end eyeglasses ($1000 + for lenses) involves toxins during production and wear.



    I've had a Late 2008 2.0 Macbook for a week now. Watched about 50 minutes of a DVD, done a few charge cycles, let it burn-in outdoors for a few days.



    It is a beautiful machine and the engineering and quality are remarkable. The out of box smell is much lower than the Late 2007 Macbook Pro.



    The very unique headache it generates, even while it is 12 feet away and warm, is identical to the headache obtained from having the Macbook Pro in this air space. This is basically the only time I get headaches. To cure the headache I need to unplug the Apple gear, seal it in a big ziploc, open windows and doors to ventilate the apartment and wait about 4 hours.



    Let me repeat. I have a beautiful new Macbook here that runs X-Plane better than my main PC and I'm not willing to use it. I'll perhaps try multiple week-long burn in sessions with it safely in a garage or something.



    I took off the bottom access panels to do a bit of investigation. My sense of smell is very poor in most cases. I need to get into the center of a bakery before the smell registers but there are a few scents / chemicals that I detect at remarkably low levels.



    A few things stink on the new Macbook. I wish Apple would hire professional 'sniff testers' to review each component batch, modeled on what Volvo does with car production. Bad chemical smells often indicate toxic chemicals are being released and frankly the smells hurt the quality perception. It is much cheaper to use trained noses than to do a technical gas analysis.



    Strangely the glowing Apple Logo on the lid smells when it gets warm. I'm guessing it is acrylic and it is a common Mac smell.



    Under the battery cover is a dimpled rubbery pad about 3 inches long that has a strong odor. Taped over this and the Apple logo with aluminum tape and the machine odor improved as a result.



    Removing screws from the big cover released a strong chemical odor when the three screws near the hinge broke free. These screws seem to thread into the plastic vent grill that runs along the hinge. I'm unable to tell if the odor comes from the plastic, from a possible thread lock compound (tips of screws are black but so is the plastic) or if just cracking the case open released the odor.



    The components under the cover are tightly packed and nothing stands out as particularly interesting when the machine is cold. To do this right the machine needs to be completely torn down and folks with useful noses could check out every component individually. I've found some trouble spots but not the smoking gun.



    All available surfaces have been wiped down with alcohol wipes in the hope of removing production oils, etc. Didn't help much.



    The AC wall charger, when warm, likely contributes to the problem.



    I'll give this unit a chance with some serious burn-in time but am not really expecting much.
  • Reply 33 of 36
    steve666steve666 Posts: 2,600member
    Apple just sold out of their clearance macbook Pro's so if I wanted to get one of the previous gen I have to get a refurb unit. Its either that or wait and hope the Mini will be updated and made more environmentally friendly. If I go this route then I have to consider whether I will react to whatever LCD Monitor I buy.

    Sheesh
  • Reply 34 of 36
    sport73sport73 Posts: 438member
    [q]Because of efforts to reduce use of toxic materials, Apple is probably going to stick with metal cases and non etched screens (just my guess). Or until some magic, green and highly repeatable glass treatment is found. Maybe laser or plasma etching is possible. Don't know.[/q]



    The new glass trackpads are etched, so I would suspect Apple is either willing to deal with the environmental concern or has found a better way.
  • Reply 35 of 36
    steve666steve666 Posts: 2,600member
    Can anyone recommend a good matte LCD display if I decide to get the Mini? I dont do graphivs work its just for personal use. 15 or 17 inch is fine.
  • Reply 36 of 36
    I use a macbook air at home for surfing and light email. 30 minutes and I am tired, have sore eyes and get grumpy. Can use my LCD screen downstairs for 4 plus hours no problem. Use LCDs at work continuously only get eye strain for 2 to 3 weeks every 24 months when stressed.



    One of the biggest problems is text scrolling, not eye friendly for me at all.
Sign In or Register to comment.