Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire

191012141584

Comments

  • Reply 221 of 1665
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 30,347member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    I don't think they will really listen to anything you've said.



    The answer will come accusing you of mindlessly going along with whatever Steve Jobs tells you.



    I'm used to it.



    Ducks back and all of that.
  • Reply 222 of 1665
    eckingecking Posts: 1,588member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Never, ever figure that an interface standard won't be replaced. Never, ever!



    Apple pioneered SCSI for mainstream computers for many years, then they dropped it like a hot potato. You want me to tell you of the problems that ensued?



    I have two FW towers, now in the Attic of Old Machinery Museum I maintain upstairs.



    I don't miss them. I much prefer my E-SATA.



    Goodby to FW. RIP in lower priced machines.



    It will live on in the pro machines for a while yet.



    But, next year comes USB 3, far superior to USB 2, and even in some respects FW.



    Then also next year comes Power Over SATA and E-SATA, which kills FW cold for drives.



    When those two are out, Apple should take them up, as pro equipment will.



    We should start seeing them on Apple's machines next year, along with Duispay Port.



    It's going to be a whole new world of connectors out there, learn to love it, we will have several years before they all change again.



    Fair enough on those points, but without expresscard or esata on the macbooks apple hasn't left anyone who owns a gen 1 alu macbook with those options.



    Do you really think it's fair for apple to remove it now because in a year or two other models may have those things?



    if I bought a new macbook they wouldn't retrofit usb3 or esata onto it at a later date, anyone who buys now is going to be left in the cold.
  • Reply 223 of 1665
    normmnormm Posts: 512member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by retroneo View Post


    All you need is a simple cable



    USB to Firewire




    The cable you link to seems to be a product that converts DV to a USB mpeg stream -- it doesn't get raw DV into the machine. For some reason no one sells a generic USB/Firewire bridge adapter. This must be hard to do, which is surprising since other adapters exist that plug into USB and bridge to other protocols such as bluetooth, SATA/PATA, etc..
  • Reply 224 of 1665
    this is worth reading if you're considering replacing a mini-DV tape, firewire camcorder with one of the newer models Mr Jobs boasts of requiring USB...



    (David Pogue on mini-DV):



    http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/09/...gue.php?page=1
  • Reply 225 of 1665
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 30,347member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dposxfan View Post


    Hey, think about it. That's the best way to get back at a vendor. Buy from someone else and tell them too bad you pissed me off! As I'll always say that if HP, Sony etc. are using the FW port then Apple should too. Hey HP makes several laptops in the sub $900 range that have FW. And as for target mode it's saved me many times. You can talk about USB and Intel, but Microsoft is the big fan of USB. I guess Apple is tying to act like them too. Hell Apple might as well bring the great Satan himself, Bill Gates on board so he and Steve can be buddy-buddy.



    Actually, it was Apple that got USB up and working on the first iMacs. Before that, Microsoft and Intel couldn't get it to work reliably.



    First, it was supposed to work on Windows 3.1. Then it needed PCI. But they then said that 95 would do it. But, wait, 98 was the one!



    Well, AFTER Apple had it up and running just fine, and sold a lot of machines with it, iMacs and others, and after all the USB accessories in the world came out in iMac colors, MS came out with 98 part 2, and finally got it working, sort of.



    I have to give credit to Apple for this, even though some here are too stuck up about these things to realize what it means.



    Apple has been accused over and again through the years of not using standard interfaces, only their own special stuff.



    When they do move to standard things, things that are usually better than what they had been using, the fanboy reaction is to think that its a betrayal. It's not.



    Apple went to USB at first to eliminate their problematical connector, and interface for the keyboard and mouse, which could blow the machine if removed when the machine was on.



    That was a very good reason. It opened up a whole world of mice, trackballs, keyboards, and everything else that uses USB, but that would never come to Apple without it.



    WE benefit from this.



    I do think Apple should have waited until USB 3 and Power Over E-SATA comes out next year, but Apple has a history of NOT waiting.



    We all know that. So while this is a surprise in that it happened now, it shouldn't be too big of a surprise, except for those who don't keep up on the latest and greatest.
  • Reply 226 of 1665
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 30,347member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post


    Its used also in RIPS but those live long attached to PowerMacs or Mac Pros.



    Good one, but most RIPS these days also work over Ethernet.



    When Apple dropped some critical parts of the SCSI spec in 10.3, my Fuji Pictography machines stopped working. I had to downgrade two Macs to 10.2.8 to get them to work again.



    What did Fuji do as they couldn't get them to function? The newer machines had Ethernet.



    That's the way it works.
  • Reply 227 of 1665
    Folks, the problem with dropping FireWire is simple to understand. Type in "transferring files" in Help and this is what you get -- this is ALL you get (i.e. the ONLY option that Apple recommends):



    Transferring files between two computers using FireWire:



    You can use a FireWire cable to connect your computer to another Mac and have one of the computers appear as an external hard disk on the other computer. This is sometimes called Target Disk Mode. To transfer files using FireWire: Shut down the computer to be used as a disk. Leave the other computer on. Connect the two computers with a FireWire cable.

    Start up the computer to be used as a disk, then open System Preferences, click Startup Disk, and click Target Disk Mode. (Or, start it up while holding down the T key.) A disk icon appears on the desktop of the other computer. Transfer files by dragging them to and from the disk.

    Eject the disk by dragging its icon to the Trash. (While you drag, the Trash icon changes to an Eject icon.) On the computer you used as a disk, push the power button to shut it down, and then disconnect the FireWire cable. If one of the computers is running Mac OS 9, it must have FireWire version 2.3.3 or later installed. Use Apple System Profiler (in the Utilities folder of the Applications folder) to check the version of FireWire installed. If it is an older version, get an update at the Apple FireWire website.





    The reason this is the only method Apple Help explains is because it's by FAR the best, simplest, most reliable and fastest way to transfer files.



    All of the other methods that have been suggested in this thread are TERRIBLE compared with FireWire.



    You've even got people here suggesting -- apparently without a hint of irony -- that we should all start dismantling the innards of our machines and removing the hard drives to make a simple file transfer! Talk about PC thinking! It reminds me of my Dad back in the '80s insisting on building his old 6080 (or whatever) from a Heath kit because it was a few pennies cheaper (naturally he never got the kit to actually work. Both it and he were, after all, PCs.)



    That is all.
  • Reply 228 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by coolfactor View Post


    Apple's thinking is and always will be slightly ahead of consumers' thinking. Sure, we hate to lose Firewire, a technology that has a cool name, great performance, and bragging rights, since Apple invented it. But if you stop and think about it... the MacBook (which no longer has Firewire) is targeted to a market that probably won't ever use Firewire. The vocal minority here are the ones that should be looking at a MacBook Pro anyway, which still has their beloved port.



    (Firewire has saved my butt many times over with Target Disk Mode, but I understand that the landscape changes, and so will our products. Just look at the myriad of display/video ports we've gone through in the past few years).



    wow. Shocker. Not. Jobs once again screws the pro looking for a cheap alternative. Heck even my mac genius buddies say they can't belive it. Give you a machine that plays games and motion. But you can't use it for pro audio nor video. WIW JOBS DOING SOMETHING LIKE THIS? A real shocker. What he wants is for you to buy the pro and all glossy I might add. LONG LIVE EFI-X.
  • Reply 229 of 1665
    dreyfus2dreyfus2 Posts: 1,056member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    I recommend SuperDuper over CCC. CCC sometimes has problems with Permissions amongst others, though it's generally pretty good (and cheap). But SuperDuper is more reliable.



    Well, this used to be true - since CCC is at 3.1 I never had these problems again. Unfortunately now it has a nasty bug with scheduled tasks - if the external drive is not available at backup time, it creates a folder with the same name under /Volumes and fills your disk neatly.
  • Reply 230 of 1665
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 30,347member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ecking View Post


    Fair enough on those points, but without expresscard or esata on the macbooks apple hasn't left anyone who owns a gen 1 alu macbook with those options.



    Do you really think it's fair for apple to remove it now because in a year or two other models may have those things?



    if I bought a new macbook they wouldn't retrofit usb3 or esata onto it at a later date, anyone who buys now is going to be left in the cold.



    I did say here twice, and in another forum the other day, that I'm disappointed they removed it now.



    I agree that they've been hasty. I don't agree with what a couple of people have said about them wanting to force people to buy MBPs.



    Most people will simply keep their machines longer.



    But within a year, all things will change. I'm hoping that Apple will jump upon the new interfaces as soon as possible, as they have with Display Port (just as prices for the chips have come down).



    Lets face it, most drives are available with E-SATA. For the desktop, external power is fine, just as it is for FW towers. For portable use, it's a bitch right now, but not for sometime next year.



    For Camcorders, it;s true that mosr newer ones use USB 2. I've been checking this out. Others are using disks, cards.



    FW IS becoming less important there. With Apple moving away from FW, I'm willing to bet that more camera manufacturers will as well. As far as digital still photography is concerned, USB 2 is pretty much it.



    I do have a FW 800 SanDisk reader, and some UDMA 6 cards, which is much faster than USB 2. But if you're a pro, you're most likely to go MBP anyway, and the FW reader over 400 is not better than a fast reader over USB 2. I've tested it, as have others.



    There is less reason for FW every day. I would imagine that Apple is pushing the limits as they have done so many times in the past.



    In the end, they've been proven correct.
  • Reply 231 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LanPhantom View Post


    Why that is the most idiotic statement yet. Why is everyone so up in arms about this decision that Apple has made about this? Most of the people who buy these entry level "Consumer" grade computers don't need firewire. If you are one of those people who need it, cough up the extra money and get a MacBook Pro. Otherwise, I'm SURE there will be a market that opens up for PCI Express cards JUST for the macbooks to allow for the firewire.



    Keep in mind, Apple caters to the majority, if you are a hardcore Music maker or a videophile, get a refurbished macbook or upgrade and get the MacBook macdaddy Pro.



    If you are still pissed enough to ditch your mac and go get a DELL, well have a nice day. That grass is definitely NOT greener, as a matter of fact, it's a yard full of rocks and crab grass.



    LanPhantom



    To my knowledge, Dell doesn't sell a 13" notebook with FW. Neither does HP for that matter. Yeah, that guy is screwed. I suppose there's always Acer.



    When I have to help someone that ultimately lambasts my company and threatens to go to a rival, they're either lying (and we continually have to deal with them) or we don't want their business anyway (and we can turn our attention to the other 99.9999% of our customers that are happy with how we run our business instead).
  • Reply 232 of 1665
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 30,347member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iedsri View Post


    Folks, the problem with dropping FireWire is simple to understand. Type in "transferring files" in Help and this is what you get -- this is ALL you get (i.e. the ONLY option that Apple recommends):



    Transferring files between two computers using FireWire:



    You can use a FireWire cable to connect your computer to another Mac and have one of the computers appear as an external hard disk on the other computer. This is sometimes called Target Disk Mode. To transfer files using FireWire: Shut down the computer to be used as a disk. Leave the other computer on. Connect the two computers with a FireWire cable.

    Start up the computer to be used as a disk, then open System Preferences, click Startup Disk, and click Target Disk Mode. (Or, start it up while holding down the T key.) A disk icon appears on the desktop of the other computer. Transfer files by dragging them to and from the disk.

    Eject the disk by dragging its icon to the Trash. (While you drag, the Trash icon changes to an Eject icon.) On the computer you used as a disk, push the power button to shut it down, and then disconnect the FireWire cable. If one of the computers is running Mac OS 9, it must have FireWire version 2.3.3 or later installed. Use Apple System Profiler (in the Utilities folder of the Applications folder) to check the version of FireWire installed. If it is an older version, get an update at the Apple FireWire website.





    The reason this is the only method Apple Help explains is because it's by FAR the best, simplest, most reliable and fastest way to transfer files.



    All of the other methods that have been suggested in this thread are TERRIBLE compared with FireWire.



    You've even got people here suggesting -- apparently without a hint of irony -- that we should all start dismantling the innards of our machines and removing the hard drives to make a simple file transfer! Talk about PC thinking! It reminds me of my Dad back in the '80s insisting on building his old 6080 (or whatever) from a Heath kit because it was a few pennies cheaper (naturally he never got the kit to actually work. Both it and he were, after all, PCs.)



    That is all.



    You're wrong, and you're not reading what we've been saying.



    Ethernet works very well, and is very easy. I do this all the time. I just did it again when I bought my wife and daughter their new 24" iMacs. And this was from old G4 towers.



    The only time you need to take the drive out is when it's in poor shape, when transfer won't work anyway.
  • Reply 233 of 1665
    zunxzunx Posts: 620member
    YOU DO NOT GET IT.



    Firewire is needed on ALL Macs for repairs and troubleshooting via Target Disk Mode. That simple. And it costs a mere 25 cents to implement as many Firewire ports as you want on a machine.



    Therefore the excuse of price is not valid. The excuse of space on the Mac Book Air (which is expensive) does not stand either, since tiny and cheap devices like the Kanguru Fire Flash (pen drive) have a Firewire connection:



    http://www.kanguru.com/fireflash.html



    THERE IS ONLY ONE ANSWER TO THIS ABUSE: stop buying ANY Apple product. Then and only then they will place Firewire on the MacBook and on the MacBook Air (which our University wanted to purchase when and only when has Firewire for repairs and troubleshooting).



    Do not get me wrong. I am a Mac evangelist and have been for almost 20 years now. But this serious error-flaw must be fixed ASAP!
  • Reply 234 of 1665
    dreyfus2dreyfus2 Posts: 1,056member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Ah, they do this in the PC world as well. You can't even get FW on most PCs.



    Used your parallel printer lately?



    Actually I can install FW on almost any PC in existence (slot, PCMCIA or ExpressCard), Sony has FW on quite a few (most?) of their machines. If I want to add anything to any Apple device fun starts at 2k.



    Your impression about PC users is a bit flawed - they do often have wrong ideas and little knowledge about Apple and OS X, but they are quite critical with MS and very demanding with the hardware makers, they just lack taste though - at least I do not know many PC users that would pay half the prices for some of the articles in the Apple ecosystem. 100 USD to connect an Apple display to an Apple laptop? It requires qualified maniacs to swallow that.



    I have no more parallel printers, but still proudly own an Okidata needle printer (serial) that I need for a program I have written in 1987 (the great days when 640KB were enough for everything).
  • Reply 235 of 1665
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 30,347member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post


    Well, this used to be true - since CCC is at 3.1 I never had these problems again. Unfortunately now it has a nasty bug with scheduled tasks - if the external drive is not available at backup time, it creates a folder with the same name under /Volumes and fills your disk neatly.



    What I've found with CCC is that it's just not reliable when copying a startup drive. I wouldn't use it. There always eeems to be some problem that can result in a corrupt drive. Copying secondary drives seems to be fine. But then, what's the point?



    SuperDuper is just safer. It's never had any of these problems.
  • Reply 236 of 1665
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 30,347member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zunx View Post


    YOU DO NOT GET IT.



    Firewire is needed on ALL Macs for repairs and troubleshooting via Target Disk Mode. That simple. And it costs a mere 25 cents to implement as many Firewire ports as you want on a machine.



    Therefore the excuse of price is not valid. The excuse of space on the Mac Book Air (which is expensive) does not stand either, since tiny and cheap devices like the Kanguru Fire Flash (pen drive) have a Firewire connection:



    http://www.kanguru.com/fireflash.html



    THERE IS ONLY ONE ANSWER TO THIS ABUSE: stop buying ANY Apple product. Then and only then they will place Firewire on the MacBook and on the MacBook Air (which our University wanted to purchase when and only when has Firewire for repairs and troubleshooting).



    Do not get me wrong. I am a Mac evangelist and have been for almost 20 years now. But this serious error-flaw must be fixed ASAP!



    That's ridiculous. I suppose the other 96% of the worlds computers can't be repaired because they don't have FW disk transfer?
  • Reply 237 of 1665
    gwmacgwmac Posts: 1,795member
    Can anyone explain how similar sized PC laptops manage to include up to 4 USB ports, a Firewire port, 5 in 1 card readers, fingerprint scanners, and even an express card slot and Apple could't even find room for one firewire port?



    No one here would be complaining, at least not so vociferously, had Apple included an express card slot so that we could add firewire 400/800 or even 3200 when it is available, not to mention USB 3. Only Apple shills like Daniel Dilger AKA Prince Mclean would dare argue that an express card slot or a firewire port is a "Pro" feature. Hell, even laptops costing $399 have an express card slot.



    The fact of the matter is this was an utterly idiotic move by Apple. People worry about the price of Apple stock if Steve Jobs is no longer at the helm, I am more worried about what will happen if he stays.
  • Reply 238 of 1665
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 30,347member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post


    Actually I can install FW on almost any PC in existence (slot, PCMCIA or ExpressCard), Sony has FW on quite a few (most?) of their machines. If I want to add anything to any Apple device fun starts at 2k.



    Your impression about PC users is a bit flawed - they do often have wrong ideas and little knowledge about Apple and OS X, but they are quite critical with MS and very demanding with the hardware makers, they just lack taste though - at least I do not know many PC users that would pay half the prices for some of the articles in the Apple ecosystem. 100 USD to connect an Apple display to an Apple laptop? It requires qualified maniacs to swallow that.



    I have no more parallel printers, but still proudly own an Okidata needle printer (serial) that I need for a program I have written in 1987 (the great days when 640KB were enough for everything).



    Quite a few PC laptops don't have any media slot that can be used for FW. Some do. More and more lower cost PCs can't be upgraded any more than most of Apple's.



    Things are moving in this direction.



    I would love to see Apple make a less expensive upgradable machine, but that's not their thing. So be it.



    FW is dying. That's the way it is.
  • Reply 239 of 1665
    zunxzunx Posts: 620member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    That's ridiculous. I suppose the other 96% of the worlds computers can't be repaired because they don't have FW disk transfer?



    Again, you do not get it. Without Target Disk Mode you cannot repair. Full stop. Or else open the case, place the disk elsewhere for Target Disk Mode, waste your time, break something and increase repair costs. How can people be so BLIND!!!??? It just costs 20 cents to implement Firewire!



    APPLE: NO FIREWIRE, NO PURCHASE. The decision is yours.
  • Reply 240 of 1665
    Maybe the real issue here is about Apple's insistence that it knows what's best for it's consumers. I guess what gets me is the fact that they could offer more options. People here keep saying, "Well, if you want a pro machine, then get a MBP!" That's not the point. The point is that a lot of people want more options. I want a 13inch laptop with a dedicated video card with HDMI or Display Port out? Why? Because there's proof that Intel's integrated solutions don't adequately fun Hi-Def video or games. Even if the new Nvidia integrated GPU is more powerful than Intel's solutions, it's still not as powerful as a dedicated 256mb or 512mb video card. That was proven on the Spore videos on Gizmodo's website. (it may be even more relevant once the external Blu-Ray drives become available)



    People here want a smaller laptop to carry around...and even if the current 15inch MBP fits in a MB bag, there's still the fact that the MB has a smaller footprint and weighs less than the MBP. But, Apple has dictated that the smaller laptop is only for consumers interested in making documents and surfing the internet. Would it really kill them to produce a "Pro" model with a 13inch screen and a dedicated GPU? Not really. Hell, they could charge a premium for it and the people that want it would pay it. There's also the "buy an Air" crowd, but that still doesn't erase the fact that the Air is a neutered laptop. Yeah, it's sexy, but it's for a totally different purpose than the MB or the MBP.



    On the other side, I'd like a 15inch Macbook. Something with a big screen without the Pro features I'll never use. Hell, you can get a Lenovo Ideabook with a 15inch screen and DDR3 graphics for just over a grand. No, it doesn't have an all aluminum enclosure, but then, I don't pick my laptop up by the corner and wiggle it so see if it actually flexes. (though I don't understand why they put a 1280X800 screen in it...)



    See the point? It's about options. Maybe Apple doesn't provide as many as the big boys because it's more worried about the bottom line still. Once it gets more market share then maybe it'll start worrying about options and catering to a larger crowd of consumers. I'm on the fence. The quality of the new machines is spectacular, but I'd still like more options.
Sign In or Register to comment.