I've never used an ExpressCard slot before, so I couldn't imagine that the crowd they make the Macbook for would either.
They're useful if you want to add more ports, TV tuners, additional sound or network cards.
There are a lot faster than PC Cards, and I also have 4-pin FW 400 and a card reader on my laptop (the card reader I use all the time, as it saves me having to plug my camera into my laptop with a USB cable, and saves battery life).
But according to Apple, those are features a $1300 laptop just does not need. I'm sure there would've been room to cram even a 4-pin FW 400 port in the new MB. But you can get a backlit KB for $1600. Ohhh.
Maybe FW is just a 'pro' feature, but it's just hilarious, when sub $1000 PC laptops can come with more ports, but with Apple, you have to pony up 2 grand for the similar ports. I'm also surprised the MBP only has 2 USB ports at that.
Yet they took it out. That pretty much tells you how many of their consumer customers require FW and can't possibly use anything else. Be assured that they did plenty of studies to find out the saturation and usage of FW on MacBooks.
Quote:
With far inferior graphics? Less solid construction?
The new MacBooks are superior to the old in every way other than the loss of FW. I expect Apple will sell a lot of older MacBooks to those who really value FW - and the used market should be bustling with people who don't need FW selling to those who do.
Those MacBooks were perfectly fine last Monday. They also have all the kinks worked out. Keeping a dead-end port tech for a minority of users within a minority of users who can't adapt isn't going affect Apple's bottom line.
Quote:
$700 is a big chunk of change to a lot of people. That money could be used to buy other gear, upgrade software, pay rent, etc.
Then don't buy a MBP. Who is forcing you to have what you deem "the best" instead of using what works.
Quote:
Apple makes no sale. And may lose future sales.
Again, if this was a worthwhile market segment don't you think Apple would have included FW400. There will always be people that hate how Apple forcing them to adapt. Why not learn to adapt yourself instead of being miserable when the world around you changes.
Quote:
I'm sure folks are right that there are solid engineering and marketing reasons for dropping FW. But it is sad. As I said, FW is valuable to an audience who has long been considered Apple's core market demographic. Apple just distanced itself from them a little bit.
Engineering wise, it's a dead-end tech. Within a year we should get USB3.0 with no change to the port plugs and will pobably be added within a year. FW400 was dying and we watching it struggle to breath for years now, but we're mad that Apple has finally started to put it out its misery.
Consider the first 15" MBP that came out. It only had a SL-DVD burner, while the 15" PowerBook that came before had a DL-burner. A step backwards that was much more extreme than the slight difference in FW400 and USB2.0. But what were Apple's choices? To not update the dying G4 PB platform until a DL 9.5mm drive was able to burn DL-DVD, redesign the MBP thicker by using the 12.7mm drives, or just ket the technology catch up in a revision or two? The answer defines how Apple functions as a company and how they look toward the future. These are the machines for the next 3-4 years so they have to think that far ahead.
But according to Apple, those are features a $1300 laptop just does not need. I'm sure there would've been room to cram even a 4-pin FW 400 port in the new MB.
Take a close look at the logic board and tell me where you could add this famous port.
That's ridiculous. I suppose the other 96% of the worlds computers can't be repaired because they don't have FW disk transfer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
That's amazing. I guess no Apple machine before FW, was repairable either.
The first B/W's and everything that came before.
Talk about being blind.
As said, you do not get it. Google for more information and the essential tool named Target Disk Mode to repair CURRENT Macs. If after that you still do not get it, better give up.
If Apple had taken out FW and replaced it with USB3 to help future proof them, or included an Express Card slot also allowing Firewire 400/800/3200 or USB3 then this wouldn't be as big of an issue.
For all you people saying firewire is dead, where is your proof? I just bought two external FW800 1.5GB drives that are brilliant. No USB2 drive even comes close to the speed of these drives. Not to mention the ability to daisy chain.
Yes, firewire 400 is slowly dying, but so will USB2 when USB3 comes out. But that's Okay since all of our old Firewire 400 and USB 1 and 2 devices are backward compatible with their replacements. Problem is that Firewire 800/3200 and USB3 are not possible with the new Macbook since there is no way to add these. I think the real question is why in the hell does Apple choose to not include an Express Card slot on a $1600 laptop when even PC laptops costing $399 include one? They could easily find room, in fact how about next to the optical drive? Seems to be plenty of space there.
The reason we are so vocal in complaining is that unlike the Windows world, we only can choose from one vendor. We don't have the luxury of buying affordable 15" or 17" laptops for $400 to $800. Nor do we have the option to buy a 10" or 13" fully featured model with many ports. In case you haven't noticed, the pickings are pretty damn slim for Apple models.
I can't find the link to the article, but a journalist was asking Shiller about what types of market and customer research they do, and Shiller replied "Oh, we don't do any research, we focus on building great computers" So for all you pretending that Apple "studied" this issue carefully, you are simply in the RDF. This was simply a greedy and boneheaded decision that they hopefully will come to regret. You can only swing the form over function pendulum so far before the user base starts to fight back.
Yet they took it out. That pretty much tells you how many of their consumer customers require FW and can't possibly use anything else. Be assured that they did plenty of studies to find out the saturation and usage of FW on MacBooks.
Yeah right - more like they did a cost benefit analysis to determine that it should be omitted.
Using an Ars forum post as 'proof' is as valid as writing a Wikipedia page about yourself and using that as proof you are popular.
What rationale do you have that a multi-billion dollar, highly profitable company does no market research when designing new products? Does Apple really seem like a willy-nilly company to you?
I also lament the state of Firewire. Intels lack of support ultimately set its fate. Apple has more invested in Firewire than consumers. Just the way these things go.
First, all intel is suppling this time around is the CPU, the chipset is from NVIDIA. Intel's M45 chipset has firewire support in chipset.
Second, I would assume the lack of firewire is more based on Ive's decision to make them smaller and put all the ports on one side.. Wasn't enough room for the firewire port.
1) Apple has pushed FireWire constantly and persistently, and I don't think they can be blamed that no one else took it up.
2) Apple still supports FireWire on every single product it makes *except* the entry-level "cheap" (for Apple) MacBook.
3) You are not differentiating between consumer level cameras and Pro gear.
Bottom line is if you have a camera that only does FireWire, it's either old or "pro enough" that you should be comfortable affording the extra $700 bucks for the MacBook Pro.
The guy above that says he's a "video producer" but can only afford a MacBook and not a Pro? Give me a break. What a bunch of whiners.
Apple doesn't do entry level anymore. The Macbook this time around is essentially a 13" Macbook Pro.
Apple can easily solve this crisis by producing a 13-inch MacBook Pro. Include FW800 (backwards compatible with FW400) and an ExpressCardslot. Make it 100 dollars more expensive. It will be an awesome machine and will attract a loyal following. I know, I still own a 12-inch Powerbook G4.
I just upgraded to an new old model 15-inch MacBook pro due to the glossy screen issue ...
To the people who are saying that all pro's should just buy the 15-inch: some pro's do need portability. Think of a traveling videoartist or audio-pro. A 13-inch notebook fits in a bag a whole lot smaller than a 15-inch would. And no, not everybody travels around by car. In some countries public transport is quite good.
Using an Ars forum post as 'proof' is as valid as writing a Wikipedia page about yourself and using that as proof you are popular.
What rationale do you have that a multi-billion dollar, highly profitable company does no market research when designing new products? Does Apple really seem like a willy-nilly company to you?
???Your qustioning his post while you make ridiculous statements like the following without proof:
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
Yet they took it out. That pretty much tells you how many of their consumer customers require FW and can't possibly use anything else. Be assured that they did plenty of studies to find out the saturation and usage of FW on MacBooks
How do you know is wasn't based on a cost benefit analysis ?
For all you people saying firewire is dead, where is your proof?
Yes, firewire 400 is slowly dying, but so will USB2 when USB3 comes out. Firewire 3200 and USB3 are not possible with the new Macbook since there is no way to add these.
For starters, USB 3.0 isn't ready yet. Neither is FW3200. The same way Apple used SL-DVD drives when Dl wasn't ready, using EC/34 when the cards weren't ready, and took out RJ-11 before some customers were ready.
It's the FW400 port standard that is dying, not FW. The proof is the complete lack of support from Apple and the final last move to remove it completely from their Macs after a slow, painful death.
As for USB 2.0 dying when USB3.0 comes out, the argument isn't the same since USB3.0 uses the exact same port as USB2.0. Same goes with FW800/3200. So why can't USB3.0 be added to a future MacBook?
i find it rather strange how those people who keep saying that they're happy with the new macbooks
keep hanging around here calling the rest of us whiners...
you'd think they'd be out there using them with their fancy USB ports to surf the net
or pose in starbucks or whatever else they do with their new oversized netbook, err macbook \
either way i have a number of friends who were looking to upgrade (and buy first time in my brother's case) and won't be until we see what comes out in jan...
i guess i'm just another whiner who finds that the 15" macbook pro too big for my needs
which are mostly defined by on-the-go audio connectivity and form factor since I have Mac Pro at home
...and doesn't find that paying a whole lot more for something (MBP) that has less connectivity and actually weighs more than the previous model constitutes advancement...
PS can any musicians out there name a good audio interface which actually uses FW800 ? Most are still on FW400 so I find removal of this port from the Pro a little premature... and no I don't like carrying adapters and yes I think one less FW port is a downgrade because FW hubs suck (and cause all sorts of audio problems).
From a camera (which camera) or just transferring data off memory (P2 or similar) - the latter is not capturing? I highly doubt that. I get occasional audio sync errors capturing DVCPRO HD even using FW400... (but I am talking 1080p here)... Only when using a FW800 disk on a second bus it does work at all.
Unless I am missing something, FW800 was always limited to the MacBook Pro machines. The new MacBook Pros still have FW800. Hence, there is no problem for you to switch from your existing MacBook Pro to a new one.
Using an Ars forum post as 'proof' is as valid as writing a Wikipedia page about yourself and using that as proof you are popular.
What rationale do you have that a multi-billion dollar, highly profitable company does no market research when designing new products? Does Apple really seem like a willy-nilly company to you?
But those are quotes I've seen Steve Jobs say. I think the most relevant quote saying that he doesn't like focus groups comes from the D5 conference when he was on stage with Bill Gates. Not that I'm saying focus groups are the sole market research, but if they do it, whatever they do is quite unconventional in how it is performed and used.
Comments
I've never used an ExpressCard slot before, so I couldn't imagine that the crowd they make the Macbook for would either.
They're useful if you want to add more ports, TV tuners, additional sound or network cards.
There are a lot faster than PC Cards, and I also have 4-pin FW 400 and a card reader on my laptop (the card reader I use all the time, as it saves me having to plug my camera into my laptop with a USB cable, and saves battery life).
But according to Apple, those are features a $1300 laptop just does not need. I'm sure there would've been room to cram even a 4-pin FW 400 port in the new MB. But you can get a backlit KB for $1600. Ohhh.
Maybe FW is just a 'pro' feature, but it's just hilarious, when sub $1000 PC laptops can come with more ports, but with Apple, you have to pony up 2 grand for the similar ports. I'm also surprised the MBP only has 2 USB ports at that.
If you need a FireWire 400 port or connection - simply buy an adapter ($9.00) and get to work
You can go here;
https://eshop.macsales.com/item/Othe...ng/1394B6912C/
and purchase, or one of many other places - bottom line - if you need FW400, you can EASILY get it on the new MB/MB Pro's
Mister Ejag
While right for the MBP, you are totally wrong about the MB. The MB simply does not have firewire anymore. Period.
Why would they keep it for the MBPs and the plastic MBs?
To upsell buyers to the MBP and to clear out inventory.
I doubt the plastic MB will be around at this time next year. It may be gone by MW in January.
And that sounds like you're complaining on the complaints people are making.
Right!
Like more than not, the biggest whiners continually whine. In every story. Every day. Never a constructive criticism. Just threats.
Saying, implying, even complaining that Apple made a mistake in one's opinion is one thing, threatening or projecting dire consequences is another.
Apple makes no sale.
Apple makes no sale.
Yet they took it out. That pretty much tells you how many of their consumer customers require FW and can't possibly use anything else. Be assured that they did plenty of studies to find out the saturation and usage of FW on MacBooks.
With far inferior graphics? Less solid construction?
The new MacBooks are superior to the old in every way other than the loss of FW. I expect Apple will sell a lot of older MacBooks to those who really value FW - and the used market should be bustling with people who don't need FW selling to those who do.
Those MacBooks were perfectly fine last Monday. They also have all the kinks worked out. Keeping a dead-end port tech for a minority of users within a minority of users who can't adapt isn't going affect Apple's bottom line.
$700 is a big chunk of change to a lot of people. That money could be used to buy other gear, upgrade software, pay rent, etc.
Then don't buy a MBP. Who is forcing you to have what you deem "the best" instead of using what works.
Apple makes no sale. And may lose future sales.
Again, if this was a worthwhile market segment don't you think Apple would have included FW400. There will always be people that hate how Apple forcing them to adapt. Why not learn to adapt yourself instead of being miserable when the world around you changes.
I'm sure folks are right that there are solid engineering and marketing reasons for dropping FW. But it is sad. As I said, FW is valuable to an audience who has long been considered Apple's core market demographic. Apple just distanced itself from them a little bit.
Engineering wise, it's a dead-end tech. Within a year we should get USB3.0 with no change to the port plugs and will pobably be added within a year. FW400 was dying and we watching it struggle to breath for years now, but we're mad that Apple has finally started to put it out its misery.
Consider the first 15" MBP that came out. It only had a SL-DVD burner, while the 15" PowerBook that came before had a DL-burner. A step backwards that was much more extreme than the slight difference in FW400 and USB2.0. But what were Apple's choices? To not update the dying G4 PB platform until a DL 9.5mm drive was able to burn DL-DVD, redesign the MBP thicker by using the 12.7mm drives, or just ket the technology catch up in a revision or two? The answer defines how Apple functions as a company and how they look toward the future. These are the machines for the next 3-4 years so they have to think that far ahead.
But according to Apple, those are features a $1300 laptop just does not need. I'm sure there would've been room to cram even a 4-pin FW 400 port in the new MB.
Take a close look at the logic board and tell me where you could add this famous port.
. Be assured that they did plenty of studies to find out the saturation and usage of FW on MacBooks.
.
NO, NO, NO.
Please quit spreading this myth.
That's ridiculous. I suppose the other 96% of the worlds computers can't be repaired because they don't have FW disk transfer?
That's amazing. I guess no Apple machine before FW, was repairable either.
The first B/W's and everything that came before.
Talk about being blind.
As said, you do not get it. Google for more information and the essential tool named Target Disk Mode to repair CURRENT Macs. If after that you still do not get it, better give up.
For all you people saying firewire is dead, where is your proof? I just bought two external FW800 1.5GB drives that are brilliant. No USB2 drive even comes close to the speed of these drives. Not to mention the ability to daisy chain.
Yes, firewire 400 is slowly dying, but so will USB2 when USB3 comes out. But that's Okay since all of our old Firewire 400 and USB 1 and 2 devices are backward compatible with their replacements. Problem is that Firewire 800/3200 and USB3 are not possible with the new Macbook since there is no way to add these. I think the real question is why in the hell does Apple choose to not include an Express Card slot on a $1600 laptop when even PC laptops costing $399 include one? They could easily find room, in fact how about next to the optical drive? Seems to be plenty of space there.
The reason we are so vocal in complaining is that unlike the Windows world, we only can choose from one vendor. We don't have the luxury of buying affordable 15" or 17" laptops for $400 to $800. Nor do we have the option to buy a 10" or 13" fully featured model with many ports. In case you haven't noticed, the pickings are pretty damn slim for Apple models.
I can't find the link to the article, but a journalist was asking Shiller about what types of market and customer research they do, and Shiller replied "Oh, we don't do any research, we focus on building great computers" So for all you pretending that Apple "studied" this issue carefully, you are simply in the RDF. This was simply a greedy and boneheaded decision that they hopefully will come to regret. You can only swing the form over function pendulum so far before the user base starts to fight back.
Yet they took it out. That pretty much tells you how many of their consumer customers require FW and can't possibly use anything else. Be assured that they did plenty of studies to find out the saturation and usage of FW on MacBooks.
Yeah right
That sounds amazing- is the Seagate relatively quiet? I have a rather noisy LaCie.
Seagate maybe just a tiny bit louder than the quietest of the pack. But they are pretty quiet.
NO, NO, NO.
Please quit spreading this myth.
Using an Ars forum post as 'proof' is as valid as writing a Wikipedia page about yourself and using that as proof you are popular.
What rationale do you have that a multi-billion dollar, highly profitable company does no market research when designing new products? Does Apple really seem like a willy-nilly company to you?
I also lament the state of Firewire. Intels lack of support ultimately set its fate. Apple has more invested in Firewire than consumers. Just the way these things go.
First, all intel is suppling this time around is the CPU, the chipset is from NVIDIA. Intel's M45 chipset has firewire support in chipset.
Second, I would assume the lack of firewire is more based on Ive's decision to make them smaller and put all the ports on one side.. Wasn't enough room for the firewire port.
Nah, you are the one that is "plain wrong."
1) Apple has pushed FireWire constantly and persistently, and I don't think they can be blamed that no one else took it up.
2) Apple still supports FireWire on every single product it makes *except* the entry-level "cheap" (for Apple) MacBook.
3) You are not differentiating between consumer level cameras and Pro gear.
Bottom line is if you have a camera that only does FireWire, it's either old or "pro enough" that you should be comfortable affording the extra $700 bucks for the MacBook Pro.
The guy above that says he's a "video producer" but can only afford a MacBook and not a Pro? Give me a break. What a bunch of whiners.
Apple doesn't do entry level anymore. The Macbook this time around is essentially a 13" Macbook Pro.
I just upgraded to an new old model 15-inch MacBook pro due to the glossy screen issue ...
To the people who are saying that all pro's should just buy the 15-inch: some pro's do need portability. Think of a traveling videoartist or audio-pro. A 13-inch notebook fits in a bag a whole lot smaller than a 15-inch would. And no, not everybody travels around by car. In some countries public transport is quite good.
Using an Ars forum post as 'proof' is as valid as writing a Wikipedia page about yourself and using that as proof you are popular.
What rationale do you have that a multi-billion dollar, highly profitable company does no market research when designing new products? Does Apple really seem like a willy-nilly company to you?
???Your qustioning his post while you make ridiculous statements like the following without proof:
Originally Posted by solipsism
Yet they took it out. That pretty much tells you how many of their consumer customers require FW and can't possibly use anything else. Be assured that they did plenty of studies to find out the saturation and usage of FW on MacBooks
How do you know is wasn't based on a cost benefit analysis ?
For all you people saying firewire is dead, where is your proof?
Yes, firewire 400 is slowly dying, but so will USB2 when USB3 comes out. Firewire 3200 and USB3 are not possible with the new Macbook since there is no way to add these.
For starters, USB 3.0 isn't ready yet. Neither is FW3200. The same way Apple used SL-DVD drives when Dl wasn't ready, using EC/34 when the cards weren't ready, and took out RJ-11 before some customers were ready.
It's the FW400 port standard that is dying, not FW. The proof is the complete lack of support from Apple and the final last move to remove it completely from their Macs after a slow, painful death.
As for USB 2.0 dying when USB3.0 comes out, the argument isn't the same since USB3.0 uses the exact same port as USB2.0. Same goes with FW800/3200. So why can't USB3.0 be added to a future MacBook?
keep hanging around here calling the rest of us whiners...
you'd think they'd be out there using them with their fancy USB ports to surf the net
or pose in starbucks or whatever else they do with their new oversized netbook, err macbook
either way i have a number of friends who were looking to upgrade (and buy first time in my brother's case) and won't be until we see what comes out in jan...
i guess i'm just another whiner who finds that the 15" macbook pro too big for my needs
which are mostly defined by on-the-go audio connectivity and form factor since I have Mac Pro at home
...and doesn't find that paying a whole lot more for something (MBP) that has less connectivity and actually weighs more than the previous model constitutes advancement...
either way please don't forget to go to:
http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html
http://www.petitiononline.com/MB1394/petition.html
PS can any musicians out there name a good audio interface which actually uses FW800 ? Most are still on FW400 so I find removal of this port from the Pro a little premature... and no I don't like carrying adapters and yes I think one less FW port is a downgrade because FW hubs suck (and cause all sorts of audio problems).
From a camera (which camera) or just transferring data off memory (P2 or similar) - the latter is not capturing? I highly doubt that. I get occasional audio sync errors capturing DVCPRO HD even using FW400... (but I am talking 1080p here)... Only when using a FW800 disk on a second bus it does work at all.
Unless I am missing something, FW800 was always limited to the MacBook Pro machines. The new MacBook Pros still have FW800. Hence, there is no problem for you to switch from your existing MacBook Pro to a new one.
Using an Ars forum post as 'proof' is as valid as writing a Wikipedia page about yourself and using that as proof you are popular.
What rationale do you have that a multi-billion dollar, highly profitable company does no market research when designing new products? Does Apple really seem like a willy-nilly company to you?
But those are quotes I've seen Steve Jobs say. I think the most relevant quote saying that he doesn't like focus groups comes from the D5 conference when he was on stage with Bill Gates. Not that I'm saying focus groups are the sole market research, but if they do it, whatever they do is quite unconventional in how it is performed and used.