The voting of California's Prop 8 should be restricted to registered California voters, as it is now, but that doesn't mean others can't have an opinion on the subject. These civil issues will carry over into the rest of the US and the world. Besides that, the First Amendment guarantees the freedom of speech.
The thread is 14 pages long with many very long posts!
My point, is that is doesn't matter a whit what non-voters think about this issue. I don't like European Socialism. but I have no say in the matter. This marriage issue is between two factions of voters, each with strongly held beliefs.
Freedom of speech also allows me to tell foreigners that I DGAFRA about what they think about this issue. We, the people will decide, and foreigners will have no influence in the matter. I know that they don't like that, but there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that they can do about it!
As this debate is about Apple donating $100,000 to the Californian campaign your views as a registered voter in Arizona are as equally valid/invalid as mine.
It's ironic that their is evidence that the funding for this proposition seems to be coming mainly from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) in Utah.
Even more ironic is that most Mormons have no problem with polygamy*, which is not recognized by any US state, including Utah. It seems that legalizing same-sex unions would be a step closer to getting their own abnormal marriage views accepted, but faith and religion has never been based on logic or rationale thought.
I think that Steve is trying to trick Republican stockholders into selling their Apple stock before it goes up. And if Republicans start ditching apple products in favor of windows, well - social conservatives kind of deserve the worst life that they can get, and that would include Windows at the very least.
Freedom of speech also allows me to tell foreigners that I DGAFRA about what they think about this issue.
Which is why I didn't write that you couldn't state that. truth be told, my original wording would have sounded as such, but I caught myself before I posted.
While people outside our circle/family/city/state/country/whatever, don't have a direct impact on us, I would argue that by speaking up "outsiders' do have an influence over our decisions, even if it is in the long term.
As this debate is about Apple donating $100,000 to the Californian campaign your views as a registered voter in Arizona are no more valid/invalid than are mine.
I also live in California, at times, we go back and forth. That's allowed you know, one can change their place of residence at will. Moreover, I'm 100% against how gay marriage would effect the rest of my family living in California. Plus, the last time I looked, California was still part of the US, where I'm a citizen in good standing. Foreigners are neither.
As for Apple's part in this, it's their money, and they are California based. None of that means that I support their actions in this case. AFAIC, it's a moral issue, plain and simple. If gay marriage is allowed, then bigamy cannot be far behind, same for marriage to an animal. The line needs to be drawn.
Thank you Appleinsider! This is the best debate on Proposition 8 that I have seen. A $100,000 donation is not a large enough sum to really directly affect Apple shareholders. Governing by propositions is problematic. As such, my proposition default vote is "No" unless I really have a strong view otherwise or "no" actually means "yes".
My point, is that is doesn't matter a whit what non-voters think about this issue. I don't like European Socialism. but I have no say in the matter. This marriage issue is between two factions of voters, each with strongly held beliefs.
Freedom of speech also allows me to tell foreigners that I DGAFRA about what they think about this issue. We, the people will decide, and foreigners will have no influence in the matter. I know that they don't like that, but there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that they can do about it!
What's wrong with European Socialism?
Compared with the USA we work fewer hours and have much longer holidays, enjoy free health care for all and have a higher life expectancy, and have lower rates of poverty and murder.
What's not to like?
Despite this you still have the right to say you don't like it, and I will defend your right to do so.
No, but it will allow you to legally use handicapped parking spots.
nice to see you're practicing tolerance of other's views (saying they can park in handicapped parking). Please see my previous post on how tolerance is more than just protecting the minority...
It's ironic that their is evidence that the funding for this proposition seems to be coming mainly from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) in Utah.
Even more ironic is that most Mormons have no problem with polygamy*, which is not recognized by any US state, including Utah. It seems that legalizing same-sex unions would be a step closer to getting their own abnormal marriage views accepted, but faith and religion has never been based on logic or rationale thought.
Solopism, you're showing your ignorance of the modern Morman's postion on polygamy. There is an offshoot of the Morman religeon, and a very small one at that, that practices polygamy, but polygamy is by no means countenanced by the Church of Latter Day Saints.
Here in Arizona, we have TV spots against the constitutional amendment defining marriage as being between one man and one woman, and they are 100% non resident funded. While the Mormans have a large contingent here in Arizona, they are not even close to a majority, and the majority her support the amendment. Don't forget, all christian churches here support the amendment. We also have an even larger hispanic population here, the majority of which are Catholic, and they're dead in favor of the amendment. It will pass here, Mormans aside.
I think that Steve is trying to trick Republican stockholders into selling their Apple stock before it goes up. And if Republicans start ditching apple products in favor of windows, well - social conservatives kind of deserve the worst life that they can get, and that would include Windows at the very least.
Oh right, because only republicans oppose same-sex marriage. You have seen the recent polls that found nearly 75% of Americans oppose same-sex marriage right? Even Obama and Biden oppose it! Will the stereotyping never end???
Sorry Apple. You lost me on this one. Off come the Apple logos on our vehicles and I will no longer encourage my clients, friends and family to purchase Apple products. Even though Apple has superior products in the marketplace, I do not want to be associated with a company that's willing to chance alienating many of its customers by challenging their moral stance on an issue. To be more direct. I cannot associate with anyone that opposes the will of our Creator.
Amen! Bless you, cdmedeir, for joining me and a very few others on this forum in speaking the truth on this. May our Creator have his way with Apple as a corporation and with all those who support this abomination.
Oh right, because only republicans oppose same-sex marriage. You have seen the recent polls that found nearly 75% of Americans oppose same-sex marriage right? Even Obama and Biden oppose it! Will the stereotyping never end???
The minority always wants to control the majority. These guys never give up, so we just have to show them who's boss!
Solopism, you're showing your ignorance of the modern Morman's postion on polygamy. There is an offshoot of the Morman religeon, and a very small one at that, that practices polygamy, but polygamy is by no means countenanced by the Church of Latter Day Saints.
Here in Arizona, we have TV spots against the constitutional amendment defining marriage as being between one man and one woman, and they are 100% non resident funded. While the Mormans have a large contingent here in Arizona, they are not even close to a majority, and the majority her support the amendment. Don't forget, all christian churches here support the amendment. We also have an even larger hispanic population here, the majority of which are Catholic, and they're dead in favor of the amendment. It will pass here, Mormans aside.
I believe you are referring to the FLDS - we have an amendment here in Texas about only 1 man and 1 woman but those guys that got busted got off scott free...
Also, FWIW, Ohio has an amendment that establishes marriage as 1 man and 1 woman but not only that it doesn't even allow for civil unions of same-sex couples and if the state that's a pretty accurate microcosm of the US as a whole will pass that amendment (and it wasn't even close) that far sweeping I think that says a lot...
Compared with the USA we work fewer hours and have much longer holidays, enjoy free health care for all and have a higher life expectancy, and have lower rates of poverty and murder.
What's not to like?
Despite this you still have the right to say you don't like it, and I will defend your right to do so.
I prefer to be self reliant, and maintain my freedom, not to mention all of those extra tax dollars that Europeans are forced to pay. As for free health care under socialism, ask the Canadians why they come here for care when they're able. Why is it that people are trying to sneak into the US, if socialism is so good?
I believe you are referring to the FLDS - we have an amendment here in Texas about only 1 man and 1 woman but those guys that got busted got off scott free...
Also, FWIW, Ohio has an amendment that establishes marriage as 1 man and 1 woman but not only that it doesn't even allow for civil unions of same-sex couples and if the state that's a pretty accurate microcosm of the US as a whole will pass that amendment (and it wasn't even close) that far sweeping I think that says a lot...
Yes, the FLDS, which is really getting the attention of the Arizona authorities since Warren Jeffs put them on page one. I can only hope that the Texas debacle is not yet finished, and that justice will be done.
I also live in California, at times, we go back and forth. That's allowed you know, one can change their place of residence at will. Moreover, I'm 100% against how gay marriage would effect the rest of my family living in California. Plus, the last time I looked, California was still part of the US, where I'm a citizen in good standing. Foreigners are neither.
Forgive me if I have this wrong, but I assumed as you said that you were voting in Arizona, you would not also be allowed to do so in California. And you did say that this debate should be restricted to registered Californian voters, did you not?
As I say I am not an expert in the US political process, merely a keen and interested observer, as are many European Socialists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfella
As for Apple's part in this, it's their money, and they are California based. None of that means that I support their actions in this case. AFAIC, it's a moral issue, plain and simple. If gay marriage is allowed, then bigamy cannot be far behind, same for marriage to an animal. The line needs to be drawn.
What ridiculous nonsense.
Gay marriage has been allowed in many countries for many years and there has never been any question of extending it in the way that you suggest. That this is the level of debate to which you are prepared to stoop, just proves how irrational your objections are.
This was a waste of company money, and troubles me as an Apple user. Apple is suppose to make public policy and use the money that investors like me give them to make better computers and grow their company. I think that they should be put on review for misappropriation of funds.
As well vote yes on 8. Marriage is between a man and woman. Domestic partnership is between two people of the same sex. They each have a word that describes their individual circumstances and each are garnered the same rights in California law. A rose is a rose and a tulip a tulip. Changing domestic partnerships name to marriage wont do anything for the gay community; it will only hurt the values of those that feel different.
Gay marriage will be taught in school if 8 fails. To say otherwise is an outright lie!
Comments
The voting of California's Prop 8 should be restricted to registered California voters, as it is now, but that doesn't mean others can't have an opinion on the subject. These civil issues will carry over into the rest of the US and the world. Besides that, the First Amendment guarantees the freedom of speech.
The thread is 14 pages long with many very long posts!
My point, is that is doesn't matter a whit what non-voters think about this issue. I don't like European Socialism. but I have no say in the matter. This marriage issue is between two factions of voters, each with strongly held beliefs.
Freedom of speech also allows me to tell foreigners that I DGAFRA about what they think about this issue. We, the people will decide, and foreigners will have no influence in the matter. I know that they don't like that, but there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that they can do about it!
As this debate is about Apple donating $100,000 to the Californian campaign your views as a registered voter in Arizona are as equally valid/invalid as mine.
It's ironic that their is evidence that the funding for this proposition seems to be coming mainly from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) in Utah.
Even more ironic is that most Mormons have no problem with polygamy*, which is not recognized by any US state, including Utah. It seems that legalizing same-sex unions would be a step closer to getting their own abnormal marriage views accepted, but faith and religion has never been based on logic or rationale thought.
Freedom of speech also allows me to tell foreigners that I DGAFRA about what they think about this issue.
Which is why I didn't write that you couldn't state that. truth be told, my original wording would have sounded as such, but I caught myself before I posted.
While people outside our circle/family/city/state/country/whatever, don't have a direct impact on us, I would argue that by speaking up "outsiders' do have an influence over our decisions, even if it is in the long term.
Hmm.
As this debate is about Apple donating $100,000 to the Californian campaign your views as a registered voter in Arizona are no more valid/invalid than are mine.
I also live in California, at times, we go back and forth. That's allowed you know, one can change their place of residence at will. Moreover, I'm 100% against how gay marriage would effect the rest of my family living in California. Plus, the last time I looked, California was still part of the US, where I'm a citizen in good standing. Foreigners are neither.
As for Apple's part in this, it's their money, and they are California based. None of that means that I support their actions in this case. AFAIC, it's a moral issue, plain and simple. If gay marriage is allowed, then bigamy cannot be far behind, same for marriage to an animal. The line needs to be drawn.
My point, is that is doesn't matter a whit what non-voters think about this issue. I don't like European Socialism. but I have no say in the matter. This marriage issue is between two factions of voters, each with strongly held beliefs.
Freedom of speech also allows me to tell foreigners that I DGAFRA about what they think about this issue. We, the people will decide, and foreigners will have no influence in the matter. I know that they don't like that, but there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that they can do about it!
What's wrong with European Socialism?
Compared with the USA we work fewer hours and have much longer holidays, enjoy free health care for all and have a higher life expectancy, and have lower rates of poverty and murder.
What's not to like?
Despite this you still have the right to say you don't like it, and I will defend your right to do so.
No, but it will allow you to legally use handicapped parking spots.
nice to see you're practicing tolerance of other's views (saying they can park in handicapped parking). Please see my previous post on how tolerance is more than just protecting the minority...
It's ironic that their is evidence that the funding for this proposition seems to be coming mainly from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) in Utah.
Even more ironic is that most Mormons have no problem with polygamy*, which is not recognized by any US state, including Utah. It seems that legalizing same-sex unions would be a step closer to getting their own abnormal marriage views accepted, but faith and religion has never been based on logic or rationale thought.
Solopism, you're showing your ignorance of the modern Morman's postion on polygamy. There is an offshoot of the Morman religeon, and a very small one at that, that practices polygamy, but polygamy is by no means countenanced by the Church of Latter Day Saints.
Here in Arizona, we have TV spots against the constitutional amendment defining marriage as being between one man and one woman, and they are 100% non resident funded. While the Mormans have a large contingent here in Arizona, they are not even close to a majority, and the majority her support the amendment. Don't forget, all christian churches here support the amendment. We also have an even larger hispanic population here, the majority of which are Catholic, and they're dead in favor of the amendment. It will pass here, Mormans aside.
I think that Steve is trying to trick Republican stockholders into selling their Apple stock before it goes up. And if Republicans start ditching apple products in favor of windows, well - social conservatives kind of deserve the worst life that they can get, and that would include Windows at the very least.
Oh right, because only republicans oppose same-sex marriage. You have seen the recent polls that found nearly 75% of Americans oppose same-sex marriage right? Even Obama and Biden oppose it! Will the stereotyping never end???
Sorry Apple. You lost me on this one. Off come the Apple logos on our vehicles and I will no longer encourage my clients, friends and family to purchase Apple products. Even though Apple has superior products in the marketplace, I do not want to be associated with a company that's willing to chance alienating many of its customers by challenging their moral stance on an issue. To be more direct. I cannot associate with anyone that opposes the will of our Creator.
Amen! Bless you, cdmedeir, for joining me and a very few others on this forum in speaking the truth on this. May our Creator have his way with Apple as a corporation and with all those who support this abomination.
Oh right, because only republicans oppose same-sex marriage. You have seen the recent polls that found nearly 75% of Americans oppose same-sex marriage right? Even Obama and Biden oppose it! Will the stereotyping never end???
The minority always wants to control the majority. These guys never give up, so we just have to show them who's boss!
Solopism, you're showing your ignorance of the modern Morman's postion on polygamy. There is an offshoot of the Morman religeon, and a very small one at that, that practices polygamy, but polygamy is by no means countenanced by the Church of Latter Day Saints.
Here in Arizona, we have TV spots against the constitutional amendment defining marriage as being between one man and one woman, and they are 100% non resident funded. While the Mormans have a large contingent here in Arizona, they are not even close to a majority, and the majority her support the amendment. Don't forget, all christian churches here support the amendment. We also have an even larger hispanic population here, the majority of which are Catholic, and they're dead in favor of the amendment. It will pass here, Mormans aside.
I believe you are referring to the FLDS - we have an amendment here in Texas about only 1 man and 1 woman but those guys that got busted got off scott free...
Also, FWIW, Ohio has an amendment that establishes marriage as 1 man and 1 woman but not only that it doesn't even allow for civil unions of same-sex couples and if the state that's a pretty accurate microcosm of the US as a whole will pass that amendment (and it wasn't even close) that far sweeping I think that says a lot...
The minority always wants to control the majority. These guys never give up, so we just have to show them who's boss!
I must be missing your point because that's the basis of Democracy, majority rules...
What's wrong with European Socialism?
Compared with the USA we work fewer hours and have much longer holidays, enjoy free health care for all and have a higher life expectancy, and have lower rates of poverty and murder.
What's not to like?
Despite this you still have the right to say you don't like it, and I will defend your right to do so.
I prefer to be self reliant, and maintain my freedom, not to mention all of those extra tax dollars that Europeans are forced to pay. As for free health care under socialism, ask the Canadians why they come here for care when they're able. Why is it that people are trying to sneak into the US, if socialism is so good?
I must be missing your point because that's the basis of Democracy, majority rules...
I meant that the minority, gays in this case, are trying to force their views on the majority. Sorry if I was too cryptic.
I must be missing your point because that's the basis of Democracy, majority rules...
See Namdnal Siroj Post #508 "Democracy in practice and concept is not about doing what the majority thinks should be done.
It's about how to delegate power. About the people voting for representatives to rule them. About mediating different views.
For these and other reasons, democracy has safeguards built in so that minorities are not "enslaved" as in the example."
I believe you are referring to the FLDS - we have an amendment here in Texas about only 1 man and 1 woman but those guys that got busted got off scott free...
Also, FWIW, Ohio has an amendment that establishes marriage as 1 man and 1 woman but not only that it doesn't even allow for civil unions of same-sex couples and if the state that's a pretty accurate microcosm of the US as a whole will pass that amendment (and it wasn't even close) that far sweeping I think that says a lot...
Yes, the FLDS, which is really getting the attention of the Arizona authorities since Warren Jeffs put them on page one. I can only hope that the Texas debacle is not yet finished, and that justice will be done.
I also live in California, at times, we go back and forth. That's allowed you know, one can change their place of residence at will. Moreover, I'm 100% against how gay marriage would effect the rest of my family living in California. Plus, the last time I looked, California was still part of the US, where I'm a citizen in good standing. Foreigners are neither.
Forgive me if I have this wrong, but I assumed as you said that you were voting in Arizona, you would not also be allowed to do so in California. And you did say that this debate should be restricted to registered Californian voters, did you not?
As I say I am not an expert in the US political process, merely a keen and interested observer, as are many European Socialists.
As for Apple's part in this, it's their money, and they are California based. None of that means that I support their actions in this case. AFAIC, it's a moral issue, plain and simple. If gay marriage is allowed, then bigamy cannot be far behind, same for marriage to an animal. The line needs to be drawn.
What ridiculous nonsense.
Gay marriage has been allowed in many countries for many years and there has never been any question of extending it in the way that you suggest. That this is the level of debate to which you are prepared to stoop, just proves how irrational your objections are.
As well vote yes on 8. Marriage is between a man and woman. Domestic partnership is between two people of the same sex. They each have a word that describes their individual circumstances and each are garnered the same rights in California law. A rose is a rose and a tulip a tulip. Changing domestic partnerships name to marriage wont do anything for the gay community; it will only hurt the values of those that feel different.
Gay marriage will be taught in school if 8 fails. To say otherwise is an outright lie!