Why does practically every other post on here contain the phrase "price hike?"
Two weeks ago the cheapest ($1100) MB had a combo drive (and didn't we hear bitching about that?!) That was of course a non-starter, so really, the cheapest useable MB was $1300. The new MB, with a LOT more content is, gasp: $1300. PLUS, the old MB, WITH a Superdrive (in other words, the $1300 model) is now available for $1000. Where exactly is the price hike?
I'm sorry vinea but you seem to be having difficulties in reading comprehension. You said:
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Originally Posted by vinea
What point? Your point is that you disagree. Fine. You disagree.
No. You claimed that 'most folks' wouldn't mind that FW is gone. I asked you to define 'most folks' to which you replied that it would be over 50% and that you had come to that figure by taking approximately half of Apple's retail sales and adding that number to 'a large target demographic' [students].
I made it clear that only Apple had the real numbers but your justification of 'most folks' wasn't realistic. I gave my reasoning as to why they were not realistic and IMO effectively debunked your affirmation.
You replied with the following (which has nothing to do with 'most folks' nor what I had reasoned) but may be factually accurate all the same:
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We know that Apple has gained significant share in the edu market.
We know that the vast majority of sales to students are for laptops.
We know that Apple wants to win this market as it's one of their target markets that they talk about.
It was clear that you didn't fully comprehend what I had reasoned or simply missed the point. I offered the second option as an explanantion.
To say the we disagree is an understatement but that doesn't change the fact that the three points quoted above bear no relation to the 'most folks' claim nor my debunking of it. I will say it again. You missed the point or failed to comprehend what I said.
Education:
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I]"“We just received word on Monday that Apple surpassed Dell as the number one supplier of portables to US higher education for 2007″"
The quote refers to higher education. Not that I have any qualms with that, but so far you have used blanket statements of 'education'.
On education I said the following:
Quote:
Now factor in the rest of the world, where Apple has nowhere near the same market share in education (barring a couple of countries), and you get a different picture to the one you are painting.
In other words I said that Apple's share of the education market was lower in the rest of the world than the share it had in the US to which you offered:
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"Apple took over the top spot in Europe in 2006 by taking 15.2 per cent market share of desktop and laptop sales. Herve Marchent, Apple director of EMEA education markets, confirmed that it climbed a few points in the third quarter of 2007 taking 19.6 per cent marketshare in Europe’s education sector."
and then you drew your conclusion:
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Yeah...Apple is only tops in the US and Europe edu markets.
Again, your quote and comment ('lol' included) have absolutely nothing to do with what I actually said. I will repeat myself in the hope that you comprehend it the second time around:
Apple's share of the education market in the rest of the world is lower than its share in the US.
If you have anything to counter this I'd like to see it.
Spurious comments:
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And regular buyers largely don't need firewire anymore either.
You love to generalise. What is a 'regular buyer' and what does 'largely' really mean in the context of FW. I know I'm stating the obvious but that comment smelt of 'filler'.
Firewire:
What is the relevance of the following quote to what I have posted in this thread? Did I even come close to saying the content of the following quote was false? I will answer for you: No. That's because it has nothing to do with what I am saying. You didn't comprehend what I said.
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"1394 suffers from being the second-choice technology in many product segments," says Brian O'Rourke, In-Stat analyst. "For example, 1394's historic one-third penetration of the PC market is now dwarfed by high-speed USB's 100% penetration. This has helped high-speed USB become the interface of choice for PC peripherals."
Let's look at the quote anyway.
It just states the obvious and is also lacking in detail. What product segments exactly?
However, what it doesn't say that PC users don't use FW. It doesn't say that because it isn't true. It also fails to highlight something else. USB is a blanket statement. USB is used for far more than FW because it would be ridiculous to use FW in MANY areas where it would serve no purpose. When was the last time you saw a FW mouse? As a result would anybody be surprised to hear that USB had 100% penetration.
OK. To be clear on this once and for all. I said that it's incorrect to affirm that PC users don't use FW and gave my reasoning.
Let me pluck a number out of the air just for the sake of an example. Some people claim there are a billion PCs on the planet. Let's knock that down to 500 million. If only 5% of PC users used FW, the total number of people actually using FW might equal or even top the amount of Mac users using FW. I know it's a terrible example but I only want to put some perspective on the table so that the people who claim that 'PC users don't use firewire' (even if it's 'largely' don't use firewire) aren't really getting the bigger picture.
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Recent research by In-Stat found the following:
- 1394-enabled device shipments will grow by only 0.2% annually through 2011.
- 1394 had created an ecosystem, with digital camcorders at the center, but there has been slippage in this ecosystem recently.
- From 2005 to 2006, 1394 penetration of digital camcorders fell from 85% to 77%.
And? Your point is?
Suddenly people don't need FW? Just two years ago, according to your quote, FW penetration was at 77% on digital camcorders. Is it time to throw them away and go buy an MPEG recorder that does exactly the same thing and offers far less control/quality over the editing process?
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Cheaper is a selling point. FW? Doubtful.
I put that because I've read comments from people (complaining about the missing FW) that represent schools/universites that have labs full of DV based recorders. Which is totally logical because DV is great for editing/manipulating and MPEG is not. MPEG is an output format.
OK. Next point. Don't laugh too hard. You might split your sides. Unfortunately you have once again failed to comprehend what I said. Here is a refresher with the important bit in bold:
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Sub-optimal could be applied to just about anything as it's difficult to cater to everyone all the time. The old MacBook was lacking in graphics but that was about it. Now the new MacBook is lacking in Firewire and you could even argue that having less high speed ports when compared to the old model (be they Firewire or USB) is a step back.
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You're kidding right? In no way is the new model a "step back" in total performance. Even without firewire.
Well I wasn't kidding because I wasn't talking about 'total performance'. If you had understood what I wrote you would have known that.
Microsoft.
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Very spotty 1394b support. Yes they have a new stack but jeez, they promised that in SP1.
What does it matter? It's the fact that they are doing it and taking it seriously that is important. In part that's why I said PC FW users would perhaps have a better experience on the mac.
Apple silence on why FW was removed.
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Mum? Steve Jobs answered a user in an email. Why? USB2 won.
That's it? A two-line email response purportedly from el Stevo himself is Apple's official stance on this? ARE YOU MAD?
Sales of MacBook:
You said:
Quote:
Given that Apple said that launch sales were very good I don't think they or the general populace cares.
You must be an analyst! Stating the obvious again. Yes sales for a completely re-designed and eagerly anticipated product that has only been on the market for a couple of weeks have been 'very good'. Were you quoting Apple with 'very good' because if Apple actually said 'very good' I'd be shouting the word SELL to the four winds in the hope that Apple shareholders could react before the next earnings reports. Apple is all about reading between the lines. If sales were described 'very good' I'd say it was cause for major concern.
But that's unimportant. What relation does your quote bear to my words? Very little. Sales could go off the charts. Would it contradict anything I have said. Of course NOT.
Conclusion:
Anyway, in an effort to save this thread from being destroyed by endless, unimportant tit-for-tat comments I'll refrain from engaging in more of the same.
I have given my opinion, stated my case and reasoned my comments. You are free to disagree but I hope you at least see that you have largely failed to comprehend what I have argued.
Let's agree to disagree.
I apologise for not taking the time to fully format the quotes used here. I just didn't have time.
..except that it's missing an important connection standard.
You're right: eSATA.
Most modern chipsets support it, but for whatever reason Apple seems to pretend that eSATA isn't the future of external HDDs. Imagine introducing a new revamped version of the Time Capsule except offer eSATA as a transfer option. They would have a really neat product there.
Except for high end A/V equipment there really isn't much of a market for FW anymore. All the iMacs and variations of Apple's laptops have a built in iSight so the iSight was discontinued. Apple stopped making iPods that supported FW for syncing ~3 years ago so most of the ipods still in existence are USB only. Apple has only sold >100M USB only ipods in the last three years. It is safe to say that the percentage of iPod users that dropping FW support would leave behind isn't worth worrying about.
On external HDDs eSATA is faster than FW making the argument that FW is the gold standard for consumer data transfer obsolete. Since USB/eSATA enclosures seem to be cheaper than the FW enclosures there doesn't seem to be a logical market for FW, except for Mac users. A lot of low end desktops have dropped FW with the realization that virtually nobody is going to edit video on machines that aren't designed with video editing in mind. Unless FW3200 catches on I predict that most major HDD vendors (Seagate, WD, etc.) will stop selling FW HDDs in the next two years and that prediction is regardless of what Apple did with FW400 on the MB.
I would have happily traded the FW port for eSATA and I would wager so would a lot of other people as well. If Apple isn't going to ever put an Expresscard slot on the MB then they might as well give us eSATA on the computer because eSATA's future for the general consumer population looks much brighter than FW.
No. You claimed that 'most folks' wouldn't mind that FW is gone. I asked you to define 'most folks' to which you replied that it would be over 50% and that you had come to that figure by taking approximately half of Apple's retail sales and adding that number to 'a large target demographic' [students].
I made it clear that only Apple had the real numbers but your justification of 'most folks' wasn't realistic. I gave my reasoning as to why they were not realistic and IMO effectively debunked your affirmation.
You debunked my assertion without any supporting evidence of your own? Nice.
No, I provided the 50% number and the target demographic as supporting argument, not as proof. You've provided nothing other than you disagree. Again, fine you disagree. So?
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You replied with the following (which has nothing to do with 'most folks' nor what I had reasoned) but may be factually accurate all the same:
Given that you agree that only Apple has the numbers all we have is circumstantial evidence. Which those three points are additional evidence to support my assertion.
You still have nothing other than you disagree and that somehow I don't understand your lack of evidence (circumstantial or otherwise).
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It was clear that you didn't fully comprehend what I had reasoned or simply missed the point. I offered the second option as an explanantion.
To say the we disagree is an understatement but that doesn't change the fact that the three points quoted above bear no relation to the 'most folks' claim nor my debunking of it. I will say it again. You missed the point or failed to comprehend what I said.
Repeated assertion does not an argument make. You debunked nothing because you provided no counter arguments or evidence to the contrary.
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Education:
The quote refers to higher education. Not that I have any qualms with that, but so far you have used blanket statements of 'education'.
Yes, this is called quoting supporting evidence for one's assertion. Higher education is part of education no? Apple also has a significant K-12 presence...enough that budgetary limits for state and local K-12 schools is worth a note in their last quarterly call.
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On education I said the following:
In other words I said that Apple's share of the education market was lower in the rest of the world than the share it had in the US to which you offered:
...
Again, your quote and comment ('lol' included) have absolutely nothing to do with what I actually said. I will repeat myself in the hope that you comprehend it the second time around:
Apple's share of the education market in the rest of the world is lower than its share in the US.
If you have anything to counter this I'd like to see it.
I did. That is the entire point of quoting that piece.
Unless you want to argue that 19% is lower than the 30% or so of the US market. That is true but pretty pointless to argue since your real point was that Apple has little presence in education outside of the US and a "few" other countries. THIS is now debunked since it's not a "few" select countries but EUROPE.
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Spurious comments:
You love to generalise. What is a 'regular buyer' and what does 'largely' really mean in the context of FW. I know I'm stating the obvious but that comment smelt of 'filler'.
It's a "spurious" comment simply because you disagree. A "regular buyer" is NOT an audio or video pro or prosumer. How is this hard to discern? Largely means that not every "regular buyer" has NO need for FW...just that the large majority do not.
How do we "KNOW" this? Because market penetration for FW is about one third and that's simply physical presence. Not that every single machine with a FW port actually gets used with a FW device. So that 33% is a MAXIMUM.
What does that tell you? That 66% of all machines do not have FW and therefore the assertion that MOST people don't need FW is far more likely than the converse opinion.
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Firewire:
What is the relevance of the following quote to what I have posted in this thread? Did I even come close to saying the content of the following quote was false? I will answer for you: No. That's because it has nothing to do with what I am saying. You didn't comprehend what I said.
You like saying that I didn't comprehend what you said while at the same time being so obtuse as to not be able to determine the relevance of an analyst saying that FW is a niche interface overshadowed by USB2. A position that supports Apple's recent statements on the subject.
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OK. To be clear on this once and for all. I said that it's incorrect to affirm that PC users don't use FW and gave my reasoning.
Obviously since two thirds of all machines lack FW is it even more incorrect to assert that PC users use FW a lot...and you cannot state that all machines with FW are actually used with a FW device even among Mac users.
Hey, did you notice that word "largely" in my preceeding statements? Yes, it's not really a filler at all now is it?
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Let me pluck a number out of the air just for the sake of an example. Some people claim there are a billion PCs on the planet. Let's knock that down to 500 million. If only 5% of PC users used FW, the total number of people actually using FW might equal or even top the amount of Mac users using FW. I know it's a terrible example but I only want to put some perspective on the table so that the people who claim that 'PC users don't use firewire' (even if it's 'largely' don't use firewire) aren't really getting the bigger picture.
Except that 5% isn't most or even many PC users relative to the total population of PC users. That 5% is VERY unlikely to be "regular users" except in the case of camcorders.
If the numbers as are bleak as you say, then you're the one missing the "bigger picture" by asserting Apple did something wrong when removing FW from their consumer laptop. Just remember that the number is not going to be higher than about 1/3.
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And? Your point is?
Suddenly people don't need FW? Just two years ago, according to your quote, FW penetration was at 77% on digital camcorders. Is it time to throw them away and go buy an MPEG recorder that does exactly the same thing and offers far less control/quality over the editing process?
The point should be obvious: Jobs is correct when he says that FW is not as needed as it was before and that even in the camcorder market it has lost significant share and is trending downwards pretty quickly.
Growth, even in the PRO markets appear to be bleak.
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I put that because I've read comments from people (complaining about the missing FW) that represent schools/universites that have labs full of DV based recorders. Which is totally logical because DV is great for editing/manipulating and MPEG is not. MPEG is an output format.
Yes, dv-avi is better for editing than MPEG. However, some USB2 cameras, like the PV-GS 250, 400 and 500, does raw over USB. You can convert MPEG to avi for editing but yes, it's another step. But not as horrible as it used to be as some the camcorders now do decent bitrate VBR. The conversion is lossy but no longer quite as bad looking.
But we both agree that camcorders is where FW is most desireable BUT very few students are going to be doing video editing. Even those that push stuff to YouTube.
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OK. Next point. Don't laugh too hard. You might split your sides. Unfortunately you have once again failed to comprehend what I said. Here is a refresher with the important bit in bold:
Are you now done with calling me stupid?
I understood your point just fine. You trivialized the major weakness of the MB as a passing point (i.e. graphics) but accentuate the lack of a FW port to claim the MB to be "arguably a step back" in order to ask me to conceed to your argument. Nope, sorry, no deal. Nice try though. However, bonus points for taking me to task for "not comprehending" your ploy by not falling for it.
Sure, the removal of FW is a "step back" in terms of interfaces. If that's all you care about then yes, it's an "arguable" point because it's true by definition. Which is why the COUNTER argument is that FW is less important to most folks than graphics and therefore as a TOTAL package for MOST folks the new MB is better than the old one.
Only in this narrow context is it a "step back".
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That's it? A two-line email response purportedly from el Stevo himself is Apple's official stance on this? ARE YOU MAD?
Nope...but you seem pretty pissed (oh, and because you think I'm an idiot...yes, that's a deliberate play on words and not my not comprehending that you're calling me names again). Yes, an email from the CEO is pretty official and I think it's been verified.
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You must be an analyst! Stating the obvious again.
Nope, I'm repeating what they said at the quarterly conference a couple days ago. Of course, the question was (I think) in response to the price rather than lack of FW but it holds.
If all the screaming that users won't by a MB because there's no FW were true, there would have been a resounding thud at launch and a different sort of response from Apple. Something like "sales were less than expected at launch due to the current economic conditions".
You do realize they aren't supposed to lie at these quarterlies? Spin, yes. Lie, no.
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Yes sales for a completely re-designed and eagerly anticipated product that has only been on the market for a couple of weeks have been 'very good'. Were you quoting Apple with 'very good' because if Apple actually said 'very good' I'd be shouting the word SELL to the four winds in the hope that Apple shareholders could react before the next earnings reports. Apple is all about reading between the lines. If sales were described 'very good' I'd say it was cause for major concern.
Go listen to the quarterly for yourself.
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But that's unimportant. What relation does your quote bear to my words? Very little. Sales could go off the charts. Would it contradict anything I have said. Of course NOT.
It would contradict the assertion that FW is very important to most users and support the assertion that the loss of FW was not that big a deal to most users.
But hey, it's obviously just me not comprehending your "nuanced" position. Wait, what does the word nuanced mean? Ah, never mind. Yo no comprendo.
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Conclusion:
Anyway, in an effort to save this thread from being destroyed by endless, unimportant tit-for-tat comments I'll refrain from engaging in more of the same.
I have given my opinion, stated my case and reasoned my comments. You are free to disagree but I hope you at least see that you have largely failed to comprehend what I have argued.
I comprehend you like calling me stupid but hey, thanks for letting me have the last word.
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Let's agree to disagree.
Gee, how magnanimous of you.
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I apologise for not taking the time to fully format the quotes used here. I just didn't have time.
Most modern chipsets support it, but for whatever reason Apple seems to pretend that eSATA isn't the future of external HDDs. Imagine introducing a new revamped version of the Time Capsule except offer eSATA as a transfer option. They would have a really neat product there.
The chipset doesn't even really matter. If it supports SATA, it supports eSATA, which is just a differently-shaped connector. And SATA II introduced hot-swapping to the standard, somewhat important for an external drive.
The chipset doesn't even really matter. If it supports SATA, it supports eSATA, which is just a differently-shaped connector. And SATA II introduced hot-swapping to the standard, somewhat important for an external drive.
That's my point. Beyond adding the connectors adding eSATA is trivial to most modern computers.
Firewire's appeal has never solely because of its speed. It bests both USB and eSata on the basis of its speed AND flexibility.
FW is faster than eSATA? Care to give me some support for that claim. Anecdotally, the fastest external consumer HDDs I have encountered were hooked up through eSATA, NOT Firewire. There is no obvious reason why connecting a drive through eSATA should be significantly slower than normal SATA. Therefore, unless you can prove to me otherwise I have to say that the pecking order speedwise is eSATA>FW800>FW400>USB2. Use whatever is the fastest at your disposal, but FW is no longer top dog on consumer speed performance. Even some drive enclosures for the Mac market admit that while the eSATA interface is a faster choice, they excluded it because Apple doesn't include eSATA on their machines.
Most hard drives never transfer data fast enough to saturate FW800, but few computers have FW800(ironically even Apple has been rather reluctant to put it FW800 on their computers). FW400 was a wicked fast interface ~5-8 years ago, but now it is a bottleneck on the performance of even many consumer HDDs. I bought a 500GB drive last year that can exceed the maximum typical transfer speed of FW400 for larger files. The newer 1TB drive I purchased this year would be seriously bottlenecked if I connected it through FW400. The only benefit I can see in FW400 is that it is still more common on computers than eSATA, but that advantage may not last much longer. FW400/800 enclosures tend to be more expensive than USB/eSATA enclosures so save for being able to connect to slightly more computers with the slighty faster FW400 connection there isn't much rational for FW400 for external HDDs anymore. Come back in two years and I would be surprised if you don't see eSATA more often than FW.
Flexibility? What the heck is that supposed to mean? Beyond being able to hook up expensive A/V equipment that I can't afford and won't use even if I could afford it what flexibility does FW offer? This is an option that most consumers couldn't care about. Despite the graphics nut stereotype very few MB users fit this stereotype. It doesn't mean I think dropping FW was a good idea, but unlike Apple excluding FW800 on the intial MBP 15" I doubt you will see enough outcry for Apple to about face on this one.
Furthermore, wasn't the idea of FW to have a fast interface for periphials that was easier to configure than SCSI, but still dramatically faster than parallel? Speed of transfers, most certainly was one of the major appeals. As that advantage has faded the niche for FW has declined.
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eSata's a nice standard, but it's a one trick pony. You can't do anything cool with audio or video. You can't (yet) even get power for your devices.
Unless you aren't into high end A/V equipment, who cares? Most of the consumer stuff is USB anyways, which is the main market for the MB. The lack of power is annoying, but that is about the only criticism that really bothers me. The unrivaled performance though seems to be a fair tradeoff to me. Unlike Steve Jobs I don't like trading off performance merely for some stylistic desire.
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Firewire gives you all that plus speed. Game over.
FW ports are definately a requirement for the Mac Pro and the MBP because a lot of people buying those machines will be doing some type of A/V work, but for those not doing A/V work eSATA is probably more likely to get use. Beyond being able to use expensive FW only A/V equipment there isn't much compelling about it to me or to most consumers.
More of the same. Still full of holes and showing a lack comprehension, attributing words to me that I never said etc.
I have rested my case. There is no point picking over your attempts to support a failed argument as you will just come back with more of the same. I'm happy to let others read what we've discussed and make their own decisions. Everything is here and I have nothing to alter in what I've posted.
More of the same. Still full of holes and showing a lack comprehension, attributing words to me that I never said etc.
I have rested my case. There is no point picking over your attempts to support a failed argument as you will just come back with more of the same. I'm happy to let others read what we've discussed and make their own decisions. Everything is here and I have nothing to alter in what I've posted.
I can see one way to add more ports to the MacBook (and MBP for that matter): Make the battery shorter, move the hard drive over an inch to make room for a strip of PCB with the ports. You sacrifice battery life, but you appease a small percentage of potential buyers.
I can see one way to add more ports to the MacBook (and MBP for that matter): Make the battery shorter, move the hard drive over an inch to make room for a strip of PCB with the ports. You sacrifice battery life, but you appease a small percentage of potential buyers.
Not going to happen.
They had enough room for a larger battery and the FW port in a very similar arraignment in the White Macbooks. Lets face it here, Ive and the design team made a lot of poor choices for aesthetic reasons. But you're right, it is not a big deal for the pool of potential users because you weeded out those in the creative fields. Its now just for ordinary users looking for some kind of status symbol.
The only benefit I can see in FW400 is that it is still more common on computers than eSATA, but that advantage may not last much longer. FW400/800 enclosures tend to be more expensive than USB/eSATA enclosures so save for being able to connect to slightly more computers with the slighty faster FW400 connection there isn't much rational for FW400 for external HDDs anymore. Come back in two years and I would be surprised if you don't see eSATA more often than FW.
Flexibility? What the heck is that supposed to mean? Beyond being able to hook up expensive A/V equipment that I can't afford and won't use even if I could afford it what flexibility does FW offer? This is an option that most consumers couldn't care about. Despite the graphics nut stereotype very few MB users fit this stereotype. It doesn't mean I think dropping FW was a good idea, but unlike Apple excluding FW800 on the intial MBP 15" I doubt you will see enough outcry for Apple to about face on this one.
I'm responding to this post but actually I'm just trying to push this thread over into the 1000+ category - which will give me another argument to say "see longest thread ever on AppleInsider forums - it must be an important issue"
... but seriously you'd think that Apple would be supporting something at least. I mean ESata is fine for HDD connection if they can figure out the power - but why not push FW as the 3200 / 6400 / FW-over-GigE configs arrive - then we'd have the speed, the hot-swap (natively supported on virtually all OS), p2p and power - all in a backwardly compatible connection system...
and SSA I realise you're saying the same thing - at least about the not "dropping FW was a good idea" part
even Vinea who seems to want to disagree with everyone keeps proposing USB3 - so can't claim complete happiness with the current MB config - and so pretty much everyone here (despite arguing for or against the next best tech) should agree that to only have 2 USB ports on the MB is a step backwards.
So the only argument that i've heard that cuts any mustard is from a shareholder who's happy that Apple has saved themselves $5 max per machine sold - which will gain each shareholder around what.... 0.0000001 cents dividend extra per year (someone else do the maths please !?) for all this negative publicity. Oh and don't think it's just us geeks hiding out on the forums... every review on the net at least mentions it (with angry comments below).
But then does apple need to save money - they're flushed with cash and are apparently able to drop the iPhone price by $100 but go cheap on a $5 connection and get a whole bunch of negative press on what could have been an otherwise good product launch. Hmmmm
PS. I don't believe the 'can't fit it in' or battery issue... because if they could do it on the 12" powerbook and then the 13" macbook which has reasonable battery life... call themselves engineers pffff
even Vinea who seems to want to disagree with everyone keeps proposing USB3 - so can't claim complete happiness with the current MB config - and so pretty much everyone here (despite arguing for or against the next best tech) should agree that to only have 2 USB ports on the MB is a step backwards.
I'm very happy with the new MB. However, since I want a new desktop I'm waiting to see how the mini gets rev'd. If it's not so hot I'll just get the new MB. 2 USB is just fine for me. I'll get a new camcorder if need be. USB3 is not required.
But hey, it's easier to call folks that don't agree with you names than actually defend your position.
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So the only argument that i've heard that cuts any mustard is from a shareholder who's happy that Apple has saved themselves $5 max per machine sold
Right, that's the ONLY argument that cuts any mustard. How about the MB is a consumer laptop and the consumer market doesn't need FW? That most of the screaming has been from pros who don't want to pony up for a MBP.
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But then does apple need to save money - they're flushed with cash and are apparently able to drop the iPhone price by $100 but go cheap on a $5 connection and get a whole bunch of negative press on what could have been an otherwise good product launch. Hmmmm
Strawman.
In any case, the likely reason is because the MB IS too good at this point. FW and the expresscard slot are the only real differentiators between the MBP and MB. That is more than a $5 loss to Apple if even MORE cannibalization occurs. Which it will in fairly large number as is because the new MB is an awesome machine in comparison to the old one.
But hey, it's more fun to claim that Apple/Jobs is SO evil he wants to cheat you out of a $5 connector and technological bliss than understanding that they gave you a brilliant new machine and simply do not want to GUT their revenues. Apple ASPs will trend quite a downwards anyway I think.
Interestingly, Apple used to make "consumer" notebooks with both reasonably good graphics (for the time & price point) and firewire.
I really don't see it as a direct trade as you put it, I don't see where improved graphics meant having to drop FW, I think they were independent choices they made, but might look like it was a trade.
They had enough room for a larger battery and the FW port in a very similar arraignment in the White Macbooks. Lets face it here, Ive and the design team made a lot of poor choices for aesthetic reasons.
Yup, kinda like the iPhone, which has sacrificed a few things in the name of 'thin uber alles'.
Steve is obsessed by form over function... err, I mean, thin. He shoulda been a Paris fashion designer.
Steve (to models): Dahliiiiings, you MUST fit into a SIZE ZERO. This will NEVER do.
In any case, the likely reason is because the MB IS too good at this point. FW and the expresscard slot are the only real differentiators between the MBP and MB. That is more than a $5 loss to Apple if even MORE cannibalization occurs. Which it will in fairly large number as is because the new MB is an awesome machine in comparison to the old one.
You hit the nail on the head, right there. This is exactly why there's no Firewire on the new MacBook.
FW is not fastr than eSATA, and I did not claim it to be. But it is a relatively fast interface with a lot more flexibility. Much more useful to have on the side of a laptop than eSata.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSA
Most hard drives never transfer data fast enough to saturate FW800, but few computers have FW800(ironically even Apple has been rather reluctant to put it FW800 on their computers). FW400 was a wicked fast interface ~5-8 years ago, but now it is a bottleneck on the performance of even many consumer HDDs.
Agreed. I have no problem with the dropping of FW400, as long as its replaced with 800 or 3200.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSA
Flexibility? What the heck is that supposed to mean? Beyond being able to hook up expensive A/V equipment that I can't afford and won't use even if I could afford it what flexibility does FW offer? This is an option that most consumers couldn't care about. Despite the graphics nut stereotype very few MB users fit this stereotype. It doesn't mean I think dropping FW was a good idea, but unlike Apple excluding FW800 on the intial MBP 15" I doubt you will see enough outcry for Apple to about face on this one.
Well that whole podcasting thing is kinda important to the MB demographic, and Apple makes this GarageBand app that has a lot of audio doohickeys to connect. I'm also assuming that iMovie caters to the MB demographic as well.
I understand that many of the accessories for these purposes are now USB as well, but if I wanted the lowest common denominator user experience, would I have bought a Mac in the first place?
Comments
Why does practically every other post on here contain the phrase "price hike?"
Two weeks ago the cheapest ($1100) MB had a combo drive (and didn't we hear bitching about that?!) That was of course a non-starter, so really, the cheapest useable MB was $1300. The new MB, with a LOT more content is, gasp: $1300. PLUS, the old MB, WITH a Superdrive (in other words, the $1300 model) is now available for $1000. Where exactly is the price hike?
Old 1299 Macbook
2.4ghz (35w T-series)
2GB of RAM
160GB Hard drive
New $1299 Macbook
2.0ghz (25w P-series)
2GB of ram
160GB Hard Drive
Old High end (black) Macbook
2.4ghz (35w T-series)
2GB of RAM
250GB Hard drive
$1499
New High End Macbook
2.4ghz (25w P-series)
2GB of RAM
250GB Hard drive
$1599
Or a more extreme example
PowerMac G5 April 2005 $1499
PowerMac G5 October 2005 $1999
Mac Pro August 2006 $2149
mac Pro January 2008 $2299
obviously this is so NOT an issue no one cares about it...
What point? Your point is that you disagree. Fine. You disagree.
No. You claimed that 'most folks' wouldn't mind that FW is gone. I asked you to define 'most folks' to which you replied that it would be over 50% and that you had come to that figure by taking approximately half of Apple's retail sales and adding that number to 'a large target demographic' [students].
I made it clear that only Apple had the real numbers but your justification of 'most folks' wasn't realistic. I gave my reasoning as to why they were not realistic and IMO effectively debunked your affirmation.
You replied with the following (which has nothing to do with 'most folks' nor what I had reasoned) but may be factually accurate all the same:
We know that Apple has gained significant share in the edu market.
We know that the vast majority of sales to students are for laptops.
We know that Apple wants to win this market as it's one of their target markets that they talk about.
It was clear that you didn't fully comprehend what I had reasoned or simply missed the point. I offered the second option as an explanantion.
To say the we disagree is an understatement but that doesn't change the fact that the three points quoted above bear no relation to the 'most folks' claim nor my debunking of it. I will say it again. You missed the point or failed to comprehend what I said.
Education:
I]"“We just received word on Monday that Apple surpassed Dell as the number one supplier of portables to US higher education for 2007″"
The quote refers to higher education. Not that I have any qualms with that, but so far you have used blanket statements of 'education'.
On education I said the following:
Now factor in the rest of the world, where Apple has nowhere near the same market share in education (barring a couple of countries), and you get a different picture to the one you are painting.
In other words I said that Apple's share of the education market was lower in the rest of the world than the share it had in the US to which you offered:
"Apple took over the top spot in Europe in 2006 by taking 15.2 per cent market share of desktop and laptop sales. Herve Marchent, Apple director of EMEA education markets, confirmed that it climbed a few points in the third quarter of 2007 taking 19.6 per cent marketshare in Europe’s education sector."
and then you drew your conclusion:
Yeah...Apple is only tops in the US and Europe edu markets.
Again, your quote and comment ('lol' included) have absolutely nothing to do with what I actually said. I will repeat myself in the hope that you comprehend it the second time around:
Apple's share of the education market in the rest of the world is lower than its share in the US.
If you have anything to counter this I'd like to see it.
Spurious comments:
And regular buyers largely don't need firewire anymore either.
You love to generalise. What is a 'regular buyer' and what does 'largely' really mean in the context of FW. I know I'm stating the obvious but that comment smelt of 'filler'.
Firewire:
What is the relevance of the following quote to what I have posted in this thread? Did I even come close to saying the content of the following quote was false? I will answer for you: No. That's because it has nothing to do with what I am saying. You didn't comprehend what I said.
"1394 suffers from being the second-choice technology in many product segments," says Brian O'Rourke, In-Stat analyst. "For example, 1394's historic one-third penetration of the PC market is now dwarfed by high-speed USB's 100% penetration. This has helped high-speed USB become the interface of choice for PC peripherals."
Let's look at the quote anyway.
It just states the obvious and is also lacking in detail. What product segments exactly?
However, what it doesn't say that PC users don't use FW. It doesn't say that because it isn't true. It also fails to highlight something else. USB is a blanket statement. USB is used for far more than FW because it would be ridiculous to use FW in MANY areas where it would serve no purpose. When was the last time you saw a FW mouse? As a result would anybody be surprised to hear that USB had 100% penetration.
OK. To be clear on this once and for all. I said that it's incorrect to affirm that PC users don't use FW and gave my reasoning.
Let me pluck a number out of the air just for the sake of an example. Some people claim there are a billion PCs on the planet. Let's knock that down to 500 million. If only 5% of PC users used FW, the total number of people actually using FW might equal or even top the amount of Mac users using FW. I know it's a terrible example but I only want to put some perspective on the table so that the people who claim that 'PC users don't use firewire' (even if it's 'largely' don't use firewire) aren't really getting the bigger picture.
Recent research by In-Stat found the following:
- 1394-enabled device shipments will grow by only 0.2% annually through 2011.
- 1394 had created an ecosystem, with digital camcorders at the center, but there has been slippage in this ecosystem recently.
- From 2005 to 2006, 1394 penetration of digital camcorders fell from 85% to 77%.
And? Your point is?
Suddenly people don't need FW? Just two years ago, according to your quote, FW penetration was at 77% on digital camcorders. Is it time to throw them away and go buy an MPEG recorder that does exactly the same thing and offers far less control/quality over the editing process?
Cheaper is a selling point. FW? Doubtful.
I put that because I've read comments from people (complaining about the missing FW) that represent schools/universites that have labs full of DV based recorders. Which is totally logical because DV is great for editing/manipulating and MPEG is not. MPEG is an output format.
OK. Next point. Don't laugh too hard. You might split your sides. Unfortunately you have once again failed to comprehend what I said. Here is a refresher with the important bit in bold:
Sub-optimal could be applied to just about anything as it's difficult to cater to everyone all the time. The old MacBook was lacking in graphics but that was about it. Now the new MacBook is lacking in Firewire and you could even argue that having less high speed ports when compared to the old model (be they Firewire or USB) is a step back.
You're kidding right? In no way is the new model a "step back" in total performance. Even without firewire.
Well I wasn't kidding because I wasn't talking about 'total performance'. If you had understood what I wrote you would have known that.
Microsoft.
Very spotty 1394b support. Yes they have a new stack but jeez, they promised that in SP1.
What does it matter? It's the fact that they are doing it and taking it seriously that is important. In part that's why I said PC FW users would perhaps have a better experience on the mac.
Apple silence on why FW was removed.
Mum? Steve Jobs answered a user in an email. Why? USB2 won.
That's it? A two-line email response purportedly from el Stevo himself is Apple's official stance on this? ARE YOU MAD?
Sales of MacBook:
You said:
Given that Apple said that launch sales were very good I don't think they or the general populace cares.
You must be an analyst! Stating the obvious again. Yes sales for a completely re-designed and eagerly anticipated product that has only been on the market for a couple of weeks have been 'very good'. Were you quoting Apple with 'very good' because if Apple actually said 'very good' I'd be shouting the word SELL to the four winds in the hope that Apple shareholders could react before the next earnings reports. Apple is all about reading between the lines. If sales were described 'very good' I'd say it was cause for major concern.
But that's unimportant. What relation does your quote bear to my words? Very little. Sales could go off the charts. Would it contradict anything I have said. Of course NOT.
Conclusion:
Anyway, in an effort to save this thread from being destroyed by endless, unimportant tit-for-tat comments I'll refrain from engaging in more of the same.
I have given my opinion, stated my case and reasoned my comments. You are free to disagree but I hope you at least see that you have largely failed to comprehend what I have argued.
Let's agree to disagree.
I apologise for not taking the time to fully format the quotes used here. I just didn't have time.
..except that it's missing an important connection standard.
You're right: eSATA.
Most modern chipsets support it, but for whatever reason Apple seems to pretend that eSATA isn't the future of external HDDs. Imagine introducing a new revamped version of the Time Capsule except offer eSATA as a transfer option. They would have a really neat product there.
Except for high end A/V equipment there really isn't much of a market for FW anymore. All the iMacs and variations of Apple's laptops have a built in iSight so the iSight was discontinued. Apple stopped making iPods that supported FW for syncing ~3 years ago so most of the ipods still in existence are USB only. Apple has only sold >100M USB only ipods in the last three years. It is safe to say that the percentage of iPod users that dropping FW support would leave behind isn't worth worrying about.
On external HDDs eSATA is faster than FW making the argument that FW is the gold standard for consumer data transfer obsolete. Since USB/eSATA enclosures seem to be cheaper than the FW enclosures there doesn't seem to be a logical market for FW, except for Mac users. A lot of low end desktops have dropped FW with the realization that virtually nobody is going to edit video on machines that aren't designed with video editing in mind. Unless FW3200 catches on I predict that most major HDD vendors (Seagate, WD, etc.) will stop selling FW HDDs in the next two years and that prediction is regardless of what Apple did with FW400 on the MB.
I would have happily traded the FW port for eSATA and I would wager so would a lot of other people as well. If Apple isn't going to ever put an Expresscard slot on the MB then they might as well give us eSATA on the computer because eSATA's future for the general consumer population looks much brighter than FW.
No. You claimed that 'most folks' wouldn't mind that FW is gone. I asked you to define 'most folks' to which you replied that it would be over 50% and that you had come to that figure by taking approximately half of Apple's retail sales and adding that number to 'a large target demographic' [students].
I made it clear that only Apple had the real numbers but your justification of 'most folks' wasn't realistic. I gave my reasoning as to why they were not realistic and IMO effectively debunked your affirmation.
You debunked my assertion without any supporting evidence of your own? Nice.
No, I provided the 50% number and the target demographic as supporting argument, not as proof. You've provided nothing other than you disagree. Again, fine you disagree. So?
You replied with the following (which has nothing to do with 'most folks' nor what I had reasoned) but may be factually accurate all the same:
Given that you agree that only Apple has the numbers all we have is circumstantial evidence. Which those three points are additional evidence to support my assertion.
You still have nothing other than you disagree and that somehow I don't understand your lack of evidence (circumstantial or otherwise).
It was clear that you didn't fully comprehend what I had reasoned or simply missed the point. I offered the second option as an explanantion.
To say the we disagree is an understatement but that doesn't change the fact that the three points quoted above bear no relation to the 'most folks' claim nor my debunking of it. I will say it again. You missed the point or failed to comprehend what I said.
Repeated assertion does not an argument make. You debunked nothing because you provided no counter arguments or evidence to the contrary.
Education:
The quote refers to higher education. Not that I have any qualms with that, but so far you have used blanket statements of 'education'.
Yes, this is called quoting supporting evidence for one's assertion. Higher education is part of education no? Apple also has a significant K-12 presence...enough that budgetary limits for state and local K-12 schools is worth a note in their last quarterly call.
On education I said the following:
In other words I said that Apple's share of the education market was lower in the rest of the world than the share it had in the US to which you offered:
...
Again, your quote and comment ('lol' included) have absolutely nothing to do with what I actually said. I will repeat myself in the hope that you comprehend it the second time around:
Apple's share of the education market in the rest of the world is lower than its share in the US.
If you have anything to counter this I'd like to see it.
I did. That is the entire point of quoting that piece.
Unless you want to argue that 19% is lower than the 30% or so of the US market. That is true but pretty pointless to argue since your real point was that Apple has little presence in education outside of the US and a "few" other countries. THIS is now debunked since it's not a "few" select countries but EUROPE.
Spurious comments:
You love to generalise. What is a 'regular buyer' and what does 'largely' really mean in the context of FW. I know I'm stating the obvious but that comment smelt of 'filler'.
It's a "spurious" comment simply because you disagree. A "regular buyer" is NOT an audio or video pro or prosumer. How is this hard to discern? Largely means that not every "regular buyer" has NO need for FW...just that the large majority do not.
How do we "KNOW" this? Because market penetration for FW is about one third and that's simply physical presence. Not that every single machine with a FW port actually gets used with a FW device. So that 33% is a MAXIMUM.
What does that tell you? That 66% of all machines do not have FW and therefore the assertion that MOST people don't need FW is far more likely than the converse opinion.
Firewire:
What is the relevance of the following quote to what I have posted in this thread? Did I even come close to saying the content of the following quote was false? I will answer for you: No. That's because it has nothing to do with what I am saying. You didn't comprehend what I said.
You like saying that I didn't comprehend what you said while at the same time being so obtuse as to not be able to determine the relevance of an analyst saying that FW is a niche interface overshadowed by USB2. A position that supports Apple's recent statements on the subject.
OK. To be clear on this once and for all. I said that it's incorrect to affirm that PC users don't use FW and gave my reasoning.
Obviously since two thirds of all machines lack FW is it even more incorrect to assert that PC users use FW a lot...and you cannot state that all machines with FW are actually used with a FW device even among Mac users.
Hey, did you notice that word "largely" in my preceeding statements? Yes, it's not really a filler at all now is it?
Let me pluck a number out of the air just for the sake of an example. Some people claim there are a billion PCs on the planet. Let's knock that down to 500 million. If only 5% of PC users used FW, the total number of people actually using FW might equal or even top the amount of Mac users using FW. I know it's a terrible example but I only want to put some perspective on the table so that the people who claim that 'PC users don't use firewire' (even if it's 'largely' don't use firewire) aren't really getting the bigger picture.
Except that 5% isn't most or even many PC users relative to the total population of PC users. That 5% is VERY unlikely to be "regular users" except in the case of camcorders.
If the numbers as are bleak as you say, then you're the one missing the "bigger picture" by asserting Apple did something wrong when removing FW from their consumer laptop. Just remember that the number is not going to be higher than about 1/3.
And? Your point is?
Suddenly people don't need FW? Just two years ago, according to your quote, FW penetration was at 77% on digital camcorders. Is it time to throw them away and go buy an MPEG recorder that does exactly the same thing and offers far less control/quality over the editing process?
The point should be obvious: Jobs is correct when he says that FW is not as needed as it was before and that even in the camcorder market it has lost significant share and is trending downwards pretty quickly.
Growth, even in the PRO markets appear to be bleak.
I put that because I've read comments from people (complaining about the missing FW) that represent schools/universites that have labs full of DV based recorders. Which is totally logical because DV is great for editing/manipulating and MPEG is not. MPEG is an output format.
Yes, dv-avi is better for editing than MPEG. However, some USB2 cameras, like the PV-GS 250, 400 and 500, does raw over USB. You can convert MPEG to avi for editing but yes, it's another step. But not as horrible as it used to be as some the camcorders now do decent bitrate VBR. The conversion is lossy but no longer quite as bad looking.
But we both agree that camcorders is where FW is most desireable BUT very few students are going to be doing video editing. Even those that push stuff to YouTube.
OK. Next point. Don't laugh too hard. You might split your sides. Unfortunately you have once again failed to comprehend what I said. Here is a refresher with the important bit in bold:
Are you now done with calling me stupid?
I understood your point just fine. You trivialized the major weakness of the MB as a passing point (i.e. graphics) but accentuate the lack of a FW port to claim the MB to be "arguably a step back" in order to ask me to conceed to your argument. Nope, sorry, no deal. Nice try though. However, bonus points for taking me to task for "not comprehending" your ploy by not falling for it.
Sure, the removal of FW is a "step back" in terms of interfaces. If that's all you care about then yes, it's an "arguable" point because it's true by definition. Which is why the COUNTER argument is that FW is less important to most folks than graphics and therefore as a TOTAL package for MOST folks the new MB is better than the old one.
Only in this narrow context is it a "step back".
That's it? A two-line email response purportedly from el Stevo himself is Apple's official stance on this? ARE YOU MAD?
Nope...but you seem pretty pissed (oh, and because you think I'm an idiot...yes, that's a deliberate play on words and not my not comprehending that you're calling me names again). Yes, an email from the CEO is pretty official and I think it's been verified.
You must be an analyst! Stating the obvious again.
Nope, I'm repeating what they said at the quarterly conference a couple days ago. Of course, the question was (I think) in response to the price rather than lack of FW but it holds.
If all the screaming that users won't by a MB because there's no FW were true, there would have been a resounding thud at launch and a different sort of response from Apple. Something like "sales were less than expected at launch due to the current economic conditions".
You do realize they aren't supposed to lie at these quarterlies? Spin, yes. Lie, no.
Yes sales for a completely re-designed and eagerly anticipated product that has only been on the market for a couple of weeks have been 'very good'. Were you quoting Apple with 'very good' because if Apple actually said 'very good' I'd be shouting the word SELL to the four winds in the hope that Apple shareholders could react before the next earnings reports. Apple is all about reading between the lines. If sales were described 'very good' I'd say it was cause for major concern.
Go listen to the quarterly for yourself.
But that's unimportant. What relation does your quote bear to my words? Very little. Sales could go off the charts. Would it contradict anything I have said. Of course NOT.
It would contradict the assertion that FW is very important to most users and support the assertion that the loss of FW was not that big a deal to most users.
But hey, it's obviously just me not comprehending your "nuanced" position. Wait, what does the word nuanced mean? Ah, never mind. Yo no comprendo.
Conclusion:
Anyway, in an effort to save this thread from being destroyed by endless, unimportant tit-for-tat comments I'll refrain from engaging in more of the same.
I have given my opinion, stated my case and reasoned my comments. You are free to disagree but I hope you at least see that you have largely failed to comprehend what I have argued.
I comprehend you like calling me stupid but hey, thanks for letting me have the last word.
Let's agree to disagree.
Gee, how magnanimous of you.
I apologise for not taking the time to fully format the quotes used here. I just didn't have time.
You're right: eSATA.
Most modern chipsets support it, but for whatever reason Apple seems to pretend that eSATA isn't the future of external HDDs. Imagine introducing a new revamped version of the Time Capsule except offer eSATA as a transfer option. They would have a really neat product there.
The chipset doesn't even really matter. If it supports SATA, it supports eSATA, which is just a differently-shaped connector. And SATA II introduced hot-swapping to the standard, somewhat important for an external drive.
You're right: eSATA.
On external HDDs eSATA is faster than FW making the argument that FW is the gold standard for consumer data transfer obsolete.
Firewire's appeal has never solely because of its speed. It bests both USB and eSata on the basis of its speed AND flexibility.
eSata's a nice standard, but it's a one trick pony. You can't do anything cool with audio or video.
You can't (yet) even get power for your devices.
Firewire gives you all that plus speed. Game over.
The chipset doesn't even really matter. If it supports SATA, it supports eSATA, which is just a differently-shaped connector. And SATA II introduced hot-swapping to the standard, somewhat important for an external drive.
That's my point. Beyond adding the connectors adding eSATA is trivial to most modern computers.
Firewire's appeal has never solely because of its speed. It bests both USB and eSata on the basis of its speed AND flexibility.
FW is faster than eSATA? Care to give me some support for that claim. Anecdotally, the fastest external consumer HDDs I have encountered were hooked up through eSATA, NOT Firewire. There is no obvious reason why connecting a drive through eSATA should be significantly slower than normal SATA. Therefore, unless you can prove to me otherwise I have to say that the pecking order speedwise is eSATA>FW800>FW400>USB2. Use whatever is the fastest at your disposal, but FW is no longer top dog on consumer speed performance. Even some drive enclosures for the Mac market admit that while the eSATA interface is a faster choice, they excluded it because Apple doesn't include eSATA on their machines.
Most hard drives never transfer data fast enough to saturate FW800, but few computers have FW800(ironically even Apple has been rather reluctant to put it FW800 on their computers). FW400 was a wicked fast interface ~5-8 years ago, but now it is a bottleneck on the performance of even many consumer HDDs. I bought a 500GB drive last year that can exceed the maximum typical transfer speed of FW400 for larger files. The newer 1TB drive I purchased this year would be seriously bottlenecked if I connected it through FW400. The only benefit I can see in FW400 is that it is still more common on computers than eSATA, but that advantage may not last much longer. FW400/800 enclosures tend to be more expensive than USB/eSATA enclosures so save for being able to connect to slightly more computers with the slighty faster FW400 connection there isn't much rational for FW400 for external HDDs anymore. Come back in two years and I would be surprised if you don't see eSATA more often than FW.
Flexibility? What the heck is that supposed to mean? Beyond being able to hook up expensive A/V equipment that I can't afford and won't use even if I could afford it what flexibility does FW offer? This is an option that most consumers couldn't care about. Despite the graphics nut stereotype very few MB users fit this stereotype. It doesn't mean I think dropping FW was a good idea, but unlike Apple excluding FW800 on the intial MBP 15" I doubt you will see enough outcry for Apple to about face on this one.
Furthermore, wasn't the idea of FW to have a fast interface for periphials that was easier to configure than SCSI, but still dramatically faster than parallel? Speed of transfers, most certainly was one of the major appeals. As that advantage has faded the niche for FW has declined.
eSata's a nice standard, but it's a one trick pony. You can't do anything cool with audio or video. You can't (yet) even get power for your devices.
Unless you aren't into high end A/V equipment, who cares? Most of the consumer stuff is USB anyways, which is the main market for the MB. The lack of power is annoying, but that is about the only criticism that really bothers me. The unrivaled performance though seems to be a fair tradeoff to me. Unlike Steve Jobs I don't like trading off performance merely for some stylistic desire.
Firewire gives you all that plus speed. Game over.
FW ports are definately a requirement for the Mac Pro and the MBP because a lot of people buying those machines will be doing some type of A/V work, but for those not doing A/V work eSATA is probably more likely to get use. Beyond being able to use expensive FW only A/V equipment there isn't much compelling about it to me or to most consumers.
More of the same. Still full of holes and showing a lack comprehension, attributing words to me that I never said etc.
I have rested my case. There is no point picking over your attempts to support a failed argument as you will just come back with more of the same. I'm happy to let others read what we've discussed and make their own decisions. Everything is here and I have nothing to alter in what I've posted.
Vinea,
More of the same. Still full of holes and showing a lack comprehension, attributing words to me that I never said etc.
I have rested my case. There is no point picking over your attempts to support a failed argument as you will just come back with more of the same. I'm happy to let others read what we've discussed and make their own decisions. Everything is here and I have nothing to alter in what I've posted.
Buh bye.
Not going to happen.
I can see one way to add more ports to the MacBook (and MBP for that matter): Make the battery shorter, move the hard drive over an inch to make room for a strip of PCB with the ports. You sacrifice battery life, but you appease a small percentage of potential buyers.
Not going to happen.
They had enough room for a larger battery and the FW port in a very similar arraignment in the White Macbooks. Lets face it here, Ive and the design team made a lot of poor choices for aesthetic reasons. But you're right, it is not a big deal for the pool of potential users because you weeded out those in the creative fields. Its now just for ordinary users looking for some kind of status symbol.
The only benefit I can see in FW400 is that it is still more common on computers than eSATA, but that advantage may not last much longer. FW400/800 enclosures tend to be more expensive than USB/eSATA enclosures so save for being able to connect to slightly more computers with the slighty faster FW400 connection there isn't much rational for FW400 for external HDDs anymore. Come back in two years and I would be surprised if you don't see eSATA more often than FW.
Flexibility? What the heck is that supposed to mean? Beyond being able to hook up expensive A/V equipment that I can't afford and won't use even if I could afford it what flexibility does FW offer? This is an option that most consumers couldn't care about. Despite the graphics nut stereotype very few MB users fit this stereotype. It doesn't mean I think dropping FW was a good idea, but unlike Apple excluding FW800 on the intial MBP 15" I doubt you will see enough outcry for Apple to about face on this one.
I'm responding to this post but actually I'm just trying to push this thread over into the 1000+ category - which will give me another argument to say "see longest thread ever on AppleInsider forums - it must be an important issue"
... but seriously you'd think that Apple would be supporting something at least. I mean ESata is fine for HDD connection if they can figure out the power - but why not push FW as the 3200 / 6400 / FW-over-GigE configs arrive - then we'd have the speed, the hot-swap (natively supported on virtually all OS), p2p and power - all in a backwardly compatible connection system...
and SSA I realise you're saying the same thing
even Vinea who seems to want to disagree with everyone
So the only argument that i've heard that cuts any mustard is from a shareholder who's happy that Apple has saved themselves $5 max per machine sold - which will gain each shareholder around what.... 0.0000001 cents dividend extra per year (someone else do the maths please !?) for all this negative publicity. Oh and don't think it's just us geeks hiding out on the forums... every review on the net at least mentions it (with angry comments below).
But then does apple need to save money - they're flushed with cash and are apparently able to drop the iPhone price by $100 but go cheap on a $5 connection and get a whole bunch of negative press on what could have been an otherwise good product launch. Hmmmm
PS. I don't believe the 'can't fit it in' or battery issue... because if they could do it on the 12" powerbook and then the 13" macbook which has reasonable battery life... call themselves engineers
even Vinea who seems to want to disagree with everyone
I'm very happy with the new MB. However, since I want a new desktop I'm waiting to see how the mini gets rev'd. If it's not so hot I'll just get the new MB. 2 USB is just fine for me. I'll get a new camcorder if need be. USB3 is not required.
But hey, it's easier to call folks that don't agree with you names than actually defend your position.
So the only argument that i've heard that cuts any mustard is from a shareholder who's happy that Apple has saved themselves $5 max per machine sold
Right, that's the ONLY argument that cuts any mustard. How about the MB is a consumer laptop and the consumer market doesn't need FW? That most of the screaming has been from pros who don't want to pony up for a MBP.
But then does apple need to save money - they're flushed with cash and are apparently able to drop the iPhone price by $100 but go cheap on a $5 connection and get a whole bunch of negative press on what could have been an otherwise good product launch. Hmmmm
Strawman.
In any case, the likely reason is because the MB IS too good at this point. FW and the expresscard slot are the only real differentiators between the MBP and MB. That is more than a $5 loss to Apple if even MORE cannibalization occurs. Which it will in fairly large number as is because the new MB is an awesome machine in comparison to the old one.
But hey, it's more fun to claim that Apple/Jobs is SO evil he wants to cheat you out of a $5 connector and technological bliss than understanding that they gave you a brilliant new machine and simply do not want to GUT their revenues. Apple ASPs will trend quite a downwards anyway I think.
Interestingly, Apple used to make "consumer" notebooks with both reasonably good graphics (for the time & price point) and firewire.
I really don't see it as a direct trade as you put it, I don't see where improved graphics meant having to drop FW, I think they were independent choices they made, but might look like it was a trade.
Good point.
Oh, and read my sig.
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They had enough room for a larger battery and the FW port in a very similar arraignment in the White Macbooks. Lets face it here, Ive and the design team made a lot of poor choices for aesthetic reasons.
Yup, kinda like the iPhone, which has sacrificed a few things in the name of 'thin uber alles'.
Steve is obsessed by form over function... err, I mean, thin. He shoulda been a Paris fashion designer.
Steve (to models): Dahliiiiings, you MUST fit into a SIZE ZERO. This will NEVER do.
Love my sig.
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My sig rules.
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In any case, the likely reason is because the MB IS too good at this point. FW and the expresscard slot are the only real differentiators between the MBP and MB. That is more than a $5 loss to Apple if even MORE cannibalization occurs. Which it will in fairly large number as is because the new MB is an awesome machine in comparison to the old one.
You hit the nail on the head, right there. This is exactly why there's no Firewire on the new MacBook.
FW is faster than eSATA?
FW is not fastr than eSATA, and I did not claim it to be. But it is a relatively fast interface with a lot more flexibility. Much more useful to have on the side of a laptop than eSata.
Most hard drives never transfer data fast enough to saturate FW800, but few computers have FW800(ironically even Apple has been rather reluctant to put it FW800 on their computers). FW400 was a wicked fast interface ~5-8 years ago, but now it is a bottleneck on the performance of even many consumer HDDs.
Agreed. I have no problem with the dropping of FW400, as long as its replaced with 800 or 3200.
Flexibility? What the heck is that supposed to mean? Beyond being able to hook up expensive A/V equipment that I can't afford and won't use even if I could afford it what flexibility does FW offer? This is an option that most consumers couldn't care about. Despite the graphics nut stereotype very few MB users fit this stereotype. It doesn't mean I think dropping FW was a good idea, but unlike Apple excluding FW800 on the intial MBP 15" I doubt you will see enough outcry for Apple to about face on this one.
Well that whole podcasting thing is kinda important to the MB demographic, and Apple makes this GarageBand app that has a lot of audio doohickeys to connect. I'm also assuming that iMovie caters to the MB demographic as well.
I understand that many of the accessories for these purposes are now USB as well, but if I wanted the lowest common denominator user experience, would I have bought a Mac in the first place?